Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode we talk to Dr. Demelza Curnow, Quality Enhancement Manager for the QAA! Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Transcript   1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,850 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College. 2 00:00:23,850 --> 00:00:27,450 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:28,890 I'm your host, Kelly Preece 4 00:00:28,890 --> 00:00:39,330 and today I am talking to Dr Demelza Curnow and Demelza works in one of those many sort of academic related jobs or academic related fields, 5 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:46,020 but this time at an organisation outside of academia called the quality assurance agency. 6 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:51,720 So Demelza, are you happy to introduce yourself? My name's Demelza Curnow 7 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,610 My Ph.D. was in mediaeval English. 8 00:00:56,610 --> 00:01:03,330 The title of it was five case studies in the transmission of popular middle english birth romance 9 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:07,830 Possibly not the most catchy and as where I am now. 10 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:12,630 I'm based in the far tip of Cornwall, down near Penzance in. 11 00:01:12,630 --> 00:01:23,220 a little village called Ludford and I came back to Cornwall pretty close on on finishing my Ph.D. and my 12 00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:32,160 work over the last 15 years or so has been in academic quality and standards and governance. 13 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,860 That wasn't what I went into immediately after my Ph.D. 14 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:41,850 And I can say more about that, if you'd like me to. Yeah, absolutely. 15 00:01:41,850 --> 00:01:48,110 So we will get on to kind of how how you got to academic quality and standards, definitely. 16 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:57,310 But. So what was the initial transition you made or the first role that you did after you finished your Ph.D.? 17 00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:01,420 Well, I'm from a farming family, and I finished my Ph.D. realising this, 18 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:09,100 I knew nothing about anything apart from farming and middle English, which is an unusual combination. 19 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:13,390 And I guess one of the big differences is I'm conscious of between 20 00:02:13,390 --> 00:02:22,570 When I did my Ph.D. 20 years ago, when they're done now, is that all I did was my Ph.D. 21 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:29,650 There was nothing around the edges in terms of employability and other skills. 22 00:02:29,650 --> 00:02:34,900 And also, I wasn't doing lots of teaching or doing the conference rounds either. 23 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:41,630 Just specialising in my manuscripts. And then I suppose the first. 24 00:02:41,630 --> 00:02:48,350 What if you could quote a proper job that I had outside of family really was working at the cider 25 00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:56,350 farm up near Truro where I worked for about nine months as a tour guide and tractor driver 26 00:02:56,350 --> 00:03:02,650 And in some respects, I can actually trace my career journey from that point. 27 00:03:02,650 --> 00:03:10,090 And I think one of the the really important things it did for me was forced me to stand in front of people and speak, 28 00:03:10,090 --> 00:03:13,720 which was something that was complete anathema to me. 29 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:20,620 And one of the reasons that I didn't want to go into an academic career, I never planned to go into an academic career. 30 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:27,490 I was simply doing my Ph.D. for the sheer enjoyment of playing with mediaeval manuscripts. 31 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:33,820 This was quite fortunate in many respects because at the time this, I was doing my my Ph.D. 32 00:03:33,820 --> 00:03:40,240 Many of the mediaeval departments around the country and universities were closing. 33 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:55,790 And I suppose I also felt that I wanted to have complete flexibility about where I live, so the jobs were actually reducing in my area of specialism 34 00:03:55,790 --> 00:04:03,500 And I felt that where I was mattered more to me, perhaps, than what I did, and that was coupled with this idea as well, 35 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:08,660 that I didn't feel that I was confident about standing up to lots of people and speaking, 36 00:04:08,660 --> 00:04:14,330 and maybe I wasn't entirely convinced by my credibility as a researcher, either. 37 00:04:14,330 --> 00:04:18,350 And I don't know how unusual that is in academia. 38 00:04:18,350 --> 00:04:24,210 I suspect not that unusual, really, and particularly perhaps not in the arts and humanities as well. 39 00:04:24,210 --> 00:04:33,170 It's not that unusual at all. I think the norm rather than the rule rather than the exception. 40 00:04:33,170 --> 00:04:40,370 So I think there's just some really interesting things in there about what drives us to make career choices. 41 00:04:40,370 --> 00:04:47,120 I mean, firstly, you know what you're saying about actually, I just really loved playing with mediaeval manuscript. 42 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,060 I loved doing. The thing that I researched was about the goal of getting the Ph.D. was not an academic career, 43 00:04:53,060 --> 00:04:57,290 and we do make the assumption that that's what people are kind of aiming for when they do a Ph.D. 44 00:04:57,290 --> 00:05:05,150 And that's by no means always the case. But also that our career decisions are also driven by. 45 00:05:05,150 --> 00:05:14,340 Geography. You know, where in the country may we may want or need to be for various different reasons. 46 00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:18,050 It was primarily for family reasons, really. 47 00:05:18,050 --> 00:05:27,770 Yes, this is the kind of geography and needing to be. Locally and yeah, and I think the other thing is also. 48 00:05:27,770 --> 00:05:38,950 You know, sometimes that is the priority. All our lives outside of our work are the priority rather than necessarily what you end up doing. 49 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:42,990 And they're important factors to consider when making career decisions. 50 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:51,770 You know, we don't think enough about our lives and what we want out of our lives and how our jobs or careers might fit into that. 51 00:05:51,770 --> 00:06:01,490 So kind of having finished the PhD and doing a kind of a range of different things, forcing yourself into decent public speaking. 52 00:06:01,490 --> 00:06:11,540 Going back to your roots a little bit and. How did you go from there to where you are now? 53 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:20,480 Well, my work at the cide fram being in the sort of tourism industry took me to working at Tate, 54 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:33,050 and that's where I began to get much more experience around governance and in turn, that led to a job working in the Cornish branch of Sport England. 55 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:37,400 And I suppose again, there I was, specialising in governance a little bit more. 56 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:47,750 And I was also working around local partnerships, and it was some of that work and some of the skills I was picking up there, 57 00:06:47,750 --> 00:06:53,840 which led to me getting a position as a graduate trainee in the quality and standards 58 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:59,950 team at what was then University College Falmouth and later became Falmouth University. 59 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:05,480 I think one of the interesting things to me was that really by sheer chance, 60 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,760 I ended up doing a lot of the accounts whilst I was working at that sports partnership. 61 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,110 And certainly, that sort of maths was not my background at all. 62 00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:23,390 I did maths up to A-level, but certainly wouldn't consider myself someone who could work with accounts 63 00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:32,350 But in preparing the organisation's accounts for audit with the county council accountants. 64 00:07:32,350 --> 00:07:40,750 One of the things I noticed was that looking for anomalies in numbers wasn't so different to looking for anomalies, 65 00:07:40,750 --> 00:07:49,750 in words, in manuscripts, so I could see how I was transferring what I had done in my Ph.D. to quite a different situation. 66 00:07:49,750 --> 00:07:54,760 And I remember picking out that example when I was being interviewed for my 67 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:00,040 graduate traineeship and that that graduate traineeship was only a 12 month post 68 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:09,460 And I think that something which did characterise all my early posts, I was applying for jobs which simply interested me. 69 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:14,110 I was in a very, very fortunate position because I was living at home. 70 00:08:14,110 --> 00:08:18,970 So and I always knew that if the worst came to the worst, I could go to work on the farm. 71 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:25,960 So I wasn't going to get bored, but I just I just looked for jobs where I thought I could give it a decent stab. 72 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:35,530 I could argue my case and I thought I'd enjoy it, and it didn't bother me at all to be applying for short term posts 73 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:41,530 So my very first job at the cider farm was a seasonal one, but they kept me on. 74 00:08:41,530 --> 00:08:47,560 My next one at Tate was a maternity cover and I think maternity cover I saw absolutely brilliant. 75 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:57,970 But giving you experience in a role which might not look natural, fit that if you can argue a case, people will often take a chance on you. 76 00:08:57,970 --> 00:09:03,110 It gets you some interesting experience and very often it opens up more doors. 77 00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:08,420 After that, it's another fixed term post than it was at the 12 month post at Falmouth, 78 00:09:08,420 --> 00:09:15,950 and that then led to a permanent position, though, was that permanent position at Falmouth. 79 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:20,280 Yes, it was it was in the same team, it was an assistant registrat post 80 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,130 NSo I think it's really interesting how kind of. 81 00:09:25,130 --> 00:09:36,610 Taking a circuitous route kind of back into an academic related role and actually going through kind of tourism and that experience kind of. 82 00:09:36,610 --> 00:09:39,850 Working on a farm and kind of coming coming at it through that perspective, 83 00:09:39,850 --> 00:09:44,170 you develop the whole range of skills applied a whole range of skills in different contexts, 84 00:09:44,170 --> 00:09:51,760 like you were saying about kind of finding anomalies in language and finding anomalies in in in numbers isn't actually 85 00:09:51,760 --> 00:10:04,150 necessarily always that different and kind of that bringing you back round into into quality and standards within a university. 86 00:10:04,150 --> 00:10:13,560 When you got the job at Falmouth, were you motivated to to kind of go back to working in an education or university setting? 87 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:24,490 Or was that just like you say, you were kind of just following following a role that looked interesting and an opportunity that looked interesting. 88 00:10:24,490 --> 00:10:32,530 I think always in the back of my mind have been at my viva for my Ph.D., my external examiner, 89 00:10:32,530 --> 00:10:37,840 who's asking me about my future ambition and whether or not I intended to be an academic. 90 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,410 And I was very clear then that that, no, that wasn't my intention at all. 91 00:10:43,410 --> 00:10:49,890 And he suggested to me that I should look at going into university administration. 92 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:54,810 And he was saying at that point that it's often very, 93 00:10:54,810 --> 00:11:00,780 very valuable to have somebody who has got a little bit more experience of being on the academic 94 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:10,200 side than working on the administrative side because there is a different sort of understanding. 95 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:16,290 I think up to a point, he's right. I would also say that within quality and standards, 96 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:24,450 possibly the best person I've ever had working is somebody who had no higher education experience, so she hadn't done a degree. 97 00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:33,470 So I don't think it is necessary, but it has certainly really helped me, I think, to sometimes give me a credibility. 98 00:11:33,470 --> 00:11:42,150 I. But it is certainly altered how people have perceived me, and that has helped. 99 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:49,260 I think that's really important. And like you say, the, you know, the value of actually having that experience and that contextual knowledge, 100 00:11:49,260 --> 00:11:54,210 whether or not whether or not that actually is always a necessity in practise, 101 00:11:54,210 --> 00:12:01,500 but certainly in applying for jobs, you know that being able to confer that kind of experience is really useful. 102 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:07,470 And I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about the role that you're in now, please. 103 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:18,340 You know what it is that you're doing. Yes, certainly, as as I say, I suppose my background has become academic quality and standards. 104 00:12:18,340 --> 00:12:26,530 So all of the policies and procedures and regulations that help a higher education provider demonstrate to a third 105 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:34,600 party in the external world that the degrees and the education they're offering are at the level they should be. 106 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,810 And then governance, which is very much around and how you're managing that internally. 107 00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:47,030 So I worked my way through a few different universities. 108 00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:54,860 And I was involved a little bit with the QAA, which is the quality assurance agency for higher education. 109 00:12:54,860 --> 00:13:05,120 And this is the body that sits between the regulatory and funding bodies for each of the four UK jurisdictions. 110 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:13,050 And then the sector itself and the role that the QAA has taken over the years has varied a little. 111 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:20,520 Say at the moment, if you look across the four UK nations, there's the Office for Students in England. 112 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:26,350 There's the Scottish Funding Council in Scotland, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales in Wales. 113 00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:29,520 There, there's legislation going through to change that at the moment. 114 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:37,560 And then there's the I think it's the Department for Education, perhaps for Environment in Northern Ireland. 115 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,630 And so each of those bodies has a relationship with the QAA 116 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:50,400 and the QAA then manages the oversight of higher education for people who aren't familiar with it. 117 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,950 I suppose the best way to describe it is think a little bit about Ofsted in schools, 118 00:13:55,950 --> 00:14:04,650 but actually the oversight of quality and standards in higher education works on a slightly different footing to schools. 119 00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:10,440 I think we would describe it as a bit more mature and it's here with you instead. 120 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:21,030 So many years ago, just sort of towards the end of my time at Falmouth, I applied to be one of the reviewers. 121 00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:28,320 So one of the people drawn from higher education providers around the country who would go into a team to visit another higher 122 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:38,640 education provider and look at how they were managing their academic quality and standards and write a report and make a judgement. 123 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:46,140 So I did that for them for a few years as I sort of moved between between different universities myself, 124 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:53,880 and then I thought that I would sort of take maybe a year or two where I step back and 125 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,570 think about what I wanted to do because the sector was changing quite a lot as well. 126 00:14:57,570 --> 00:15:10,960 At that point, say, I got a part time job working in university research administration, which was a little bit of a gap that I had in my portfolio. 127 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:17,250 Maybe I'd always worked much more with with the taught provision and less with I with research students as well, 128 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:23,010 how we manage research, but less with the sort of the pure research itself. 129 00:15:23,010 --> 00:15:29,850 And if I did want to step back into a career and the sort of academic registrar or even registrar and 130 00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:37,310 secretary then getting some experience more experience around research was going to be valuable to. 131 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:45,020 And again, I was simply taking the approach of. And even if it wasn't, I'd enjoy myself in the meantime. 132 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:47,600 So I picked up a part time job doing that. 133 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:56,720 And then I suppose about four months later that QAA was advertising for something called flexible part timers. 134 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,320 And I went for that job and I got that as well. 135 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:10,190 So I've then been managing a substantive role as a research administrator alongside a flexible role with the QAA, 136 00:16:10,190 --> 00:16:18,590 and the flexible role is technically zero hours. In reality, there is enough work that I could be full time. 137 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:25,220 But I'm a sort of a bit like being a minister without portfolio. 138 00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:30,270 I can lead all sorts of different projects. It just depends where the gap is. 139 00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:41,030 So I've been designing and leading professional development courses for people in the sector, for the area I've been. 140 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:48,030 I'm currently leading the work around microcredentials and writing the microcredentials characteristic statement. 141 00:16:48,030 --> 00:16:51,630 And I've done quite a bit of international work as well, which I've really enjoyed. 142 00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:59,820 The only thing I cannot do is anything to do with quality assessment England and the designated quality body responsibilities. 143 00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:02,760 And that's because the Office for Students would see it as a conflict with my 144 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,350 broader role and also the fact that I got a substantive role within a provider. 145 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:15,450 In fact, that substantive role is coming to an end in the next week, and I'm going to be concentrating all my time within the QAA 146 00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:24,180 But again, I'm going to be balancing a flexible part time on FBT role with a point five role, 147 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:28,830 which is in the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Europe division. 148 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:40,320 So again, doing sort of institutional liaison and looking to develop that the new review method methods the Scottish higher education providers. 149 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:50,140 Wow, thanks. That sounds absolutely, absolutely fascinating, and I'm yeah, I'm just continually, really, really. 150 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:57,070 Really struck by the kind of the mantra you have about following your following your interest and doing 151 00:17:57,070 --> 00:18:03,230 doing the thing that feels right and looks interesting and kind of seeing where that goes because. 152 00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:06,440 I think we always feel like we need to right, we need to have the answer. 153 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,420 Like even off even the first job after the PhD needs to be the answer that needs to be my career, 154 00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:15,170 my job, you know, as if it's a kind of final or an end point. 155 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:20,250 And actually, you know, these things are constantly evolving. 156 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:26,870 I wondered if you could say something for anybody that we've got listening, who is interested in? 157 00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:36,530 A role in kind of the QAA or quality and standards and and any in or, you know, in or outside a university. 158 00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:42,710 What advice would you give them about the kind of key skills that they need to develop the key experiences 159 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:50,660 or just how having a Ph.D. or any other form of research might be useful for them in that context? 160 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:56,720 If you've done the Ph.D., one of the things that you've had to learn is you've got to be flexible. 161 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,570 You might have an idea on how you're going to get from A to B, but actually something could could change that. 162 00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:03,750 And I mean, in doing a PhD 163 00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:11,090 we do that all the time don't we it's just your research takes you down a different route or something you thought would work doesn't work, 164 00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:12,740 so you try something else. 165 00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:22,880 And I think one of the things that a Ph.D. really does is enables a level of reflection that you don't normally get sort of some of the lower levels. 166 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,910 And I think being a reflective practitioner is really, really important. 167 00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:33,620 I remember one of the things I said to members of my staff is if something has gone wrong, 168 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:40,430 we need to know why it's gone wrong, but not in a way that then sort of paralyses us so that we can't move forward. 169 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:45,260 It's just it should be much more a question of right. That didn't happen, as I expected. 170 00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:56,610 Why is that actually was it better? Did we learn something that we can actually use for something else or should we do it that way in the future? 171 00:19:56,610 --> 00:20:01,050 So I guess that's one thing always being open to different ideas and being prepared to change 172 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:08,130 direction and to listen to other people and that way of like sparking ideas of different people. 173 00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:10,900 And I guess the other thing is that. 174 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:19,740 Doing a Ph.D. you've got you've got to be somebody who can stick at something even through the boring bits and get to the end. 175 00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:23,290 So I mean, certainly in arts and humanities, I know it's a little bit different in the sciences, 176 00:20:23,290 --> 00:20:27,520 but often you are you're applying for a project that somebody else has designed. 177 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,020 But in arts and humanities, we're actually you're designing your own project as well. 178 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:38,710 You're seeing something through from that sort of real conception right through to the final completion. 179 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:46,360 So it gives you that real sort of stick ability, which I think is quite important to. 180 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:52,330 Thank you so much to Demelza for sharing her knowledge and experience with us. 181 00:20:52,330 --> 00:21:02,440 And I think has made some really excellent, excellent points about the path and the journey of a career and the, you know, 182 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:16,340 the first job you have outside of your research degree, whether it's an admin job or a postdoc or a teaching job or working on a cider farm and. 183 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:28,340 That's not your career forever. These things shift and change and evolve, and it's been really interesting to hear how that's worked for Demelza. 184 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:44,189 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode we talk to Dr. Holly Prescott, Careers Advisor of Postgraduate Researchers at the University of Birmingham! Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Transcript   1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,630 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College.   2 00:00:23,630 --> 00:00:27,020 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.   3 00:00:27,020 --> 00:00:32,870 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of my colleagues from the University of Birmingham.   4 00:00:32,870 --> 00:00:36,830 Dr. Holly Prescott, about her career beyond her research degree.   5 00:00:36,830 --> 00:00:49,100 Holly, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. So I'm Holly Prescott, and I did my Ph.D. at the University of Birmingham.   6 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:54,800 I did it between 2008 and 2011. It's tough to get my head around.   7 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:03,050 The fact that it's nearly 10 years since I finished my Ph.D. was a crossover between literature and cultural geography.   8 00:01:03,050 --> 00:01:14,200 So I was looking at the effective, and narrative agency of abandoned spaces in contemporary British fiction.   9 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,200 And once I'd completed that.   10 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:25,520 I felt like I'd taken research as far as I wanted to take it.   11 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:34,760 And so from then, I forged a career in what we might call higher education professional services,   12 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:43,780 and I'm currently the careers advisor for postgraduate researchers at the University of Birmingham.   13 00:01:43,780 --> 00:01:47,980 Amazing. I just want to pick up on a phrase that you use, though, which I thought was really interesting,   14 00:01:47,980 --> 00:01:52,630 which is that you came to the end of the PhD and you'd taken research as far as you wanted to take it.   15 00:01:52,630 --> 00:01:58,510 Can I ask you more about what you mean by that? Absolutely, yes.   16 00:01:58,510 --> 00:02:07,240 And I think what I mean by that would be in comparison to how I felt after I finished my master's degree.   17 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:13,570 So I did, a taught MA and in literature and culture at the University of Lancaster.   18 00:02:13,570 --> 00:02:18,760 And I just got really into it, got really into my dissertation.   19 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:26,050 And one of the main reasons I progressed to the Ph.D. was because after I've done that MA dissertation, I thought I'm not done yet.   20 00:02:26,050 --> 00:02:32,210 I felt like there was more mileage in the ideas and the research I was doing.   21 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:34,000 So just to give you some context.   22 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:46,570 My master's dissertation was looking at uh urban exploration photography and say where people go into abandoned buildings, take photographs,   23 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:50,860 display them online and especially of maternity hospitals,   24 00:02:50,860 --> 00:03:00,370 and crossover between the online display of these images of these abandoned maternity hospitals and birth narratives.   25 00:03:00,370 --> 00:03:10,390 And and yeah, I felt like and the more I was reading, the more I was seeing abandoned hospitals,   26 00:03:10,390 --> 00:03:16,570 especially cropping up in and in novels that I was looking at.   27 00:03:16,570 --> 00:03:21,640 And so I think there's more I can get out of this.   28 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:28,390 And and that was one of the main reasons I went on to do something I think kind of served   29 00:03:28,390 --> 00:03:38,320 me relatively well throughout the process was that I was treated like a fixed term job,   30 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:45,880 if you like. I was very lucky and privileged to have funding from Research Council.   31 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:51,150 But I, yeah, I treated. It really is kind of a fixed term job.   32 00:03:51,150 --> 00:04:00,780 And and when I was coming towards the end of it, where after my master's, I saw.   33 00:04:00,780 --> 00:04:06,470 I still feel like there's some mileage in these ideas, I want to keep going with the research.   34 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:09,800 That sort of came to a natural end for me.   35 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:20,540 And as I was going to say, it was actually in my second year, I really started to think I will probably do something different after this.   36 00:04:20,540 --> 00:04:29,150 And I started to, on a small scale, explore what that something different might be.   37 00:04:29,150 --> 00:04:33,410 Yeah, I think that's really interesting and just that kind of concept of the research   38 00:04:33,410 --> 00:04:39,130 coming to sort of this or your your motivation coming to the natural conclusion.   39 00:04:39,130 --> 00:04:48,780 And so when you kind of when your second year when you were starting to investigate what that might be, how how did you go about that?   40 00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:56,390 How did you go about the process of going? What else is there and what might what might be suitable for me?   41 00:04:56,390 --> 00:05:03,290 Hmm. I think it's important to point out that I don't think I did this completely consciously, right?   42 00:05:03,290 --> 00:05:09,590 I don't think this was a conscious, purposeful career planning process.   43 00:05:09,590 --> 00:05:19,250 I don't think my line is so difficult, isn't it, to put yourself back in the past situation, actually think what your line of thought was?   44 00:05:19,250 --> 00:05:27,670 But I don't think it was. Oh, I have to start career planning now, so I'm going to try some things and see what's right for me.   45 00:05:27,670 --> 00:05:33,100 It was much more and it was much more.   46 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:37,430 I don't think I'm going to be continuing with research after this.   47 00:05:37,430 --> 00:05:47,420 So feeling like that gave me the freedom to dip my toe into a couple of other things and try some things out.   48 00:05:47,420 --> 00:05:53,030 And I think another big part of it was what I was naturally drawn to.   49 00:05:53,030 --> 00:05:59,420 I think what I ended up doing from second year onwards was following my interests a lot more.   50 00:05:59,420 --> 00:06:09,660 And so just to put that into some context, my interests ended up being things like teaching anything where I was in an advisory work,   51 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:20,360 in an advisory capacity and anything where I was doing things like training or mentoring other people.   52 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,600 And those were things that I was naturally drawn to.   53 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:30,620 So that meant I picked up quite a bit of undergraduate teaching, some master's level teaching as well.   54 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:39,050 And it meant that I worked as postgraduate student ambassador in the Post Graduate Recruitment Office.   55 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:44,960 So helping organise post-grad open days, doing campus tours, things like that.   56 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:53,630 And it was actually that part time role that led to my first full time job after the PhD as well.   57 00:06:53,630 --> 00:07:01,220 And then some of the things I did was I did a stand up comedy course, random, I know.   58 00:07:01,220 --> 00:07:12,500 And but that has been so useful and in my work now because I felt like if I could stand up in front of the lamp tavern in Dudley and tell jokes,   59 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:16,790 I could probably cope with any audience and whatever was thrown at me in any job.   60 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:20,330 So. And yeah, that that was what I did.   61 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:30,380 I think it was that I became very aware quite quickly about what and what I was drawn towards what I wanted to do more of.   62 00:07:30,380 --> 00:07:33,800 So when I spotted opportunities like those,   63 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:45,510 I took them and as much as I could and and it was doing that and especially the post-grad ambassador work, It ended up really showing me.   64 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:57,170 How broad the range of. University based careers is and it started to spark thought in me as well,   65 00:07:57,170 --> 00:08:04,070 if I do still want to be student facing, I want to be teaching or advising students in some way.   66 00:08:04,070 --> 00:08:11,820 I still want to be in a university environment and I want to keep that feeling of being an expert in something   67 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:19,220 some someone people come to and for for expertise in a certain area.   68 00:08:19,220 --> 00:08:30,820 That was when I started to realise there were other avenues that could give me that that weren't traditional academic research or teaching.   69 00:08:30,820 --> 00:08:39,670 Yeah. I think the things I'm really picking up on there is follow it following your interests and continuing to do the things that interests you,   70 00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:49,900 because they will they will lead you to kind of something that's more perhaps more fitting to interests and values,   71 00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:53,830 but also kind of getting involved with stuff.   72 00:08:53,830 --> 00:09:02,590 It raises your awareness, it raises your awareness of what other opportunities and what other options are available to you career wise.   73 00:09:02,590 --> 00:09:09,190 Because I think, you know, I I was an academic for seven years, six years, six years and,   74 00:09:09,190 --> 00:09:13,600 you know, until I decided I didn't want to do that anymore and start signing up for job alerts.   75 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:20,080 Even working as an academic, I didn't really have a concept of the breadth of professional services and all of that you   76 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:27,780 could do within a university that weren't being an academic and so important to do that.   77 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:34,150 And can I can I give you another example Kelly just wanted to while pick that you've picked up?   78 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:39,010 What I think was important there about, say, about following your interests.   79 00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:44,240 I think two points here. Number one, I was a bit naughty really, my PhD,   80 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:55,960 because I would find myself regularly shirking my research to prepare teaching and and to see how I might do more open days and things like that.   81 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,100 And at the time, I felt bad for that.   82 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:04,960 But really, it was a very important message I was giving myself.   83 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:13,810 I was sort of telling myself whre I drew My energy, but also another example of what you say about following your interests.   84 00:10:13,810 --> 00:10:18,370 So and a couple of years ago, and I think it's going on for about three years ago now,   85 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:30,610 I was working with a PGR and she had a physics physical sciences background and and had done a really interdisciplinary PhD.   86 00:10:30,610 --> 00:10:35,320 And um, she had done a similar thing.   87 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,840 So she knew very early on she was very interested in communication just in general,   88 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:47,620 whether it was communication, science, communication, research, communication of ideas, whatever it was.   89 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:56,410 So she decided to wherever there was a communication theme and she had time and the ability to explore that.   90 00:10:56,410 --> 00:11:04,060 She ended up doing some media training. She ended up getting involved in a podcast.   91 00:11:04,060 --> 00:11:14,650 She ended up making some videos about her research, and she just purely did that because that was where that was, where interest lay.   92 00:11:14,650 --> 00:11:21,500 She just really enjoyed those things. When she came to graduate through talking to a friend,   93 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:33,740 she learnt about a role that was being advertised and it was in a microscope company and the job pretty much involved   94 00:11:33,740 --> 00:11:45,440 interviewing scientists to find out how they used this equipment and how they use the applications that this company created.   95 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:53,420 And that's not even a job she would have known was a job. But by taking those opportunities doing those training she made,   96 00:11:53,420 --> 00:12:01,460 she accidentally made herself an ideal candidate for a job that suited her really well.   97 00:12:01,460 --> 00:12:10,010 But she didn't know it was a job, and I just love that as a career planning model, if you like the fact that it's not a plan.   98 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:13,460 She didn't identify a type of job in eighth grade.   99 00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:23,510 She just developed herself in the ways that she was most interested, and it accidentally made her a great candidate for the job that suited her.   100 00:12:23,510 --> 00:12:31,610 And so I thought, Yeah, I really rate that as a strategy.   101 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:41,680 Yeah, I think I think Kate Foster at Exeter has said that's called planned happenstance or something like it.   102 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:46,060 It's a theory,   103 00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:56,880 and I think it is so important because I've I had a very similar experience in that I was involved in my national kind of subject area network dance   104 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:05,050 HE and through that set up and a network for early career researchers because I was one of two early career researchers heavily involved in it.   105 00:13:05,050 --> 00:13:12,670 And and we didn't really know anyone at other institutions on each other, and we wanted to have that support system.   106 00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:13,240 And actually,   107 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:20,380 that was a huge thing when I applied for the role that I'm in now as a researcher development manager that worked in my favour because actually,   108 00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:31,000 that's the kind of stuff that my role now is doing. And it was a really cool experience and the fit directly into the work that I'm doing now.   109 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,200 But it was kind of a a a side hustle kind of.   110 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:43,780 I just want to do this and like you, something I was taking taking time out with my quote unquote day job to do.   111 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:50,500 And I think lots of us do that. And I really like how you're talking about the importance of acknowledging and   112 00:13:50,500 --> 00:14:00,100 reflecting on those instincts and those pathways and those things that you're drawn to.   113 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:07,510 I think it's like any aspect of life, whether it's, you know, whether it's academic,   114 00:14:07,510 --> 00:14:13,720 professional relationship, family links, if you keep doing something,   115 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,140 if you keep being drawn to a pattern of behaviour,   116 00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:26,020 you're being drawn to that pattern of behaviour for a reason and uncovering those reasons can unlock a lot of nuggets for you.   117 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:33,300 I think. Yeah, it can. You know, it really ties into all of that stuff that we talk about in our respective roles,   118 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:39,050 about kind of self-awareness and reflecting on your values and all of that.   119 00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:46,710 I like you. I've always done that kind of unconsciously, I guess, and through my career.   120 00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:51,420 But actually, you put yourself ahead of the game if you actually engage with all of those processes and all of those   121 00:14:51,420 --> 00:14:59,790 resources because you learn about yourself and what you're drawn to and what interests and excites you.   122 00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:08,880 And that can kind of step ahead to thinking about, Okay, so where where does this fit, you know, career wise, sector wise?   123 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:17,040 And I think that reflection can also perhaps save you some stress in the long run,   124 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,660 because especially when we're talking about postgraduate researchers,   125 00:15:21,660 --> 00:15:31,380 you know, I really appreciate that not everybody has the time, exactly space to just say yes to these extra things.   126 00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:34,060 So I think it's a balance.   127 00:15:34,060 --> 00:15:45,330 And if you are someone who is juggling your postgraduate research with a hefty pile of other responsibilities and challenges,   128 00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:58,550 and the more you can do to to to be very strategic and in the few opportunities that you do take.   129 00:15:58,550 --> 00:16:03,950 The better, so you don't feel the pressure to have to say yes to all of these things,   130 00:16:03,950 --> 00:16:13,760 but you're just investing in the few things that are going to develop you in the line of how you think you want to develop.   131 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:22,490 This is why I, you know, I I do think career planning is very outdated in terms of deciding you want to   132 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:27,740 be something and then planning in a very linear way to actualise that plan.   133 00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:36,440 I think jobs, if jobs are being born and dying, a rate that is too fast for that to be an effective strategy anymore.   134 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:43,880 And what I do think is that if you just have some idea about how you want your doctoral   135 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:52,490 experience to develop and to use that to be strategic in the things you say yes and no to,   136 00:16:52,490 --> 00:17:03,500 that can save you. I think some conflict and some stress to to grant yourself the permission to say no to things that don't fall within that.   137 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:08,660 Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah,   138 00:17:08,660 --> 00:17:15,830 I'm really interested about what you said about this kind of career management career planning thing being being outdated because   139 00:17:15,830 --> 00:17:25,100 I my experience is that kind of I came to this knowledge area kind of after I'd made some quite dramatic decisions in my career.   140 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:31,490 It's going to stop being an academic and actually looking at it helped me contextualise the decisions that I've made,   141 00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:35,000 but I'm not sure if I'd have someone to put the career management cycle in front of me.   142 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,120 I'd necessarily have still made those decisions.   143 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:47,620 But on reflection, help me understand that I was actually following my, my values and my interests and my mind.   144 00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:55,010 And so can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing now and how that kind of fits in   145 00:17:55,010 --> 00:18:00,140 with kind of you following those interests and those passions during your research degree?   146 00:18:00,140 --> 00:18:02,900 Yeah, definitely so.   147 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:16,700 And so as well as my day job being the careers advisor post graduate research, going to University of Birmingham, I keep a Ph.D. careers blog.   148 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:24,980 It's called Post Gradual and its phd-careers.co.uk to give a shameless plug.   149 00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:29,240 And and in our own blog.   150 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:38,520 And I. Talk quite a bit about a thought experiment that I'm quite a fan of.   151 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:49,770 And it really is a it is me putting into words something that I was doing unconsciously through this process of what led me to what I do now.   152 00:18:49,770 --> 00:19:03,790 So. Obviously, what I do now is I support postgraduate researchers with that and career development who will take their next steps.   153 00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:11,880 But it's taken me a while to come around to this and it's taken me a while to realise that this was.   154 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:19,830 And this role was dealing with the problems in the world that I wanted to solve.   155 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:30,510 But what I feel like I have done and this is something I encourage other people to do is say from coming out of the PhD into the first role I was in   156 00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:37,000 which was working in postgraduate student recruitment. There were things about that I really enjoyed.   157 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:46,500 So the first thing to say was. And having done part time work with them during my PhD, gave me an easy in right.   158 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:53,740 That was an easy step sideways into doing some work because it was academic.   159 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:58,110 adjacent if you like. I knew the team I'd worked with before.   160 00:19:58,110 --> 00:20:08,190 And so that gave me a nice Segway into my first proper job after the Ph.D. as I was going through that job.   161 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:24,060 I started to more consciously think about what were the bits of it that motivated me the most, and it was anything where I was advising people.   162 00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:29,400 It was anything where prospective students were coming to me as an expert,   163 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,980 as somebody who could be a postgraduate and wanting to ask questions about the experience,   164 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:40,350 the application process, being hungry for information, and I was the one that could give it to them.   165 00:20:40,350 --> 00:20:43,170 I really liked being in that situation,   166 00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:50,970 and I really enjoyed being the person who made people feel more confident and more reassured with taking the next steps.   167 00:20:50,970 --> 00:21:00,090 Those were things that really lit me up, but the bits of it I wasn't so enamoured with were only being able to promote one opportunity to them,   168 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:06,930 which was postgraduate study and and and the kind of salesy aspect of the role.   169 00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:12,510 I quickly realised that the conversations I wanted to be having with these people were more   170 00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:19,920 impartial and conversations about what would really be right for them in the next steps.   171 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:28,020 So what I was doing here semiconsciously, I was asking myself if I was going to turn my current job into my ideal job.   172 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:33,660 What bits of it, what I want to keep? What aspects of it would I want to lose?   173 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:40,950 And what kinds of activities or things might I want to add to it that I'm not doing at the moment   174 00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:46,320 And I think I was doing that throughout the PhD as well. I just didn't realise it.   175 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,510 I think when I was going through the PhD, I was thinking,   176 00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:58,530 I want to keep working in a university environment to keep this advisory, teaching and authority kind of figure.   177 00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:07,860 But I wanted to lose working on my own a lot, and I wanted to add more contact with a broader range of people in my work,   178 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:12,000 and I wanted to add a bit more kind of work life separation.   179 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:22,130 And so I guess what led me from the Ph.D. to where I am now is this iterative process of each role I took.   180 00:22:22,130 --> 00:22:27,090 Keep asking myself, What do I want to keep, what I want to lose, what I want to add?   181 00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:32,670 And it says that that actually led me to undertake a professional qualification in career   182 00:22:32,670 --> 00:22:41,670 guidance and take a sideways move to do a secondment and into the careers service,   183 00:22:41,670 --> 00:22:50,520 which is how I got it originally. And that was originally a six month secondment, and I ended up establishing a permanent role.   184 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:59,940 And then once I was in that again asking myself those questions, what do I want to add, specifically working with researchers?   185 00:22:59,940 --> 00:23:08,460 So so far, I feel like my career has been this iterative process of keep asking myself these three questions Why don't you keep what I want to lose?   186 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:16,710 What do I want to add? And I think I will always be doing that. And throughout my career, and it's something I would really encourage people,   187 00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:22,500 especially post-grad researchers, to to think about and to bring into their consciousness,   188 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:32,430 because I think too often we can fixate on the idea that we have to solve our entire lives with our first post job, right?   189 00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:38,880 Especially if we're going to be jumping out of academia into something else, we can think, Well,   190 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:46,800 what if I don't like it or if the job is terrible, etc. You're not trying to solve your whole life with your next job.   191 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:53,910 You're just trying to take the next step in this iterative process. You're just trying to think, What do I want to add next?   192 00:23:53,910 --> 00:24:05,100 What do I want to lose next? And I'm making very small incremental changes towards something that ticks more boxes   193 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:11,510 I hope that answered the question, that's my best way of describing the process that I've gone.   194 00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:22,370 through from PhD to where I am now, it has and I think it's hit on a really, really and insightful bit of advice,   195 00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:31,490 which is the thing about not, you know, you're not solving your whole life, you're not kind of committing to something forever   196 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:36,260 I think that's that's such an important point to make because actually, you know,   197 00:24:36,260 --> 00:24:44,390 careers evolve over time and you know, you discover you discover interests that you didn't necessarily know you had.   198 00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:50,840 I mean, through doing some of the kind of community based work with PGRs I have become really interested in equality and diversity,   199 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:58,850 and I'm actually going on secondment shortly to do a role looking at inclusive research and research ultures, you know?   200 00:24:58,850 --> 00:25:05,930 That's when I was an academic. I would never have imagined that I would taken,   201 00:25:05,930 --> 00:25:14,210 but it's something that's evolved throughout the process of doing different roles and engaging with different PGR communities.   202 00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:22,260 And so I think what you're saying is really crucial because. We discover new things our interests change over time.   203 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:26,840 Now, you know that none of these things are static, so thinking about that first,   204 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:34,790 your post is a kind of deciding what you will be doing forever is deciding kind of what what the next step is.   205 00:25:34,790 --> 00:25:39,320 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know I didn't.   206 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:50,960 I didn't think straight out of my PhD dying to be a careers advisor, and I'd only mean that kind of partially, irreverently.   207 00:25:50,960 --> 00:26:00,140 Yeah, but it's it's like it's as if I was going through in my first couple post jobs capturing these breadcrumbs that   208 00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:09,730 were giving me clues as to that was what was going to to help me make people feel the way I wanted them to feel,   209 00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:16,700 the way I wanted to support people and to working with the groups of people that I wanted to make a difference to.   210 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:24,350 Thanks so much to Holly for taking the time to speak to me and for giving us some really fantastic insight about following your interests,   211 00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:27,290 your values, using your intuition,   212 00:26:27,290 --> 00:26:36,800 but also fundamentally not seeing that first job post research degree as it as the culmination or the the end point of your career.   213 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:47,210 Actually, it's about finding something that's interesting and gathering those breadcrumbs, as Holly said, to find the right thing for you.   214 00:26:47,210 --> 00:27:03,066 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager is interviewed by Dr. Charlotte Kelstead, University of Exeter Doctoral graduate about her career in research and Higher Education. Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Transcription 1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:23,790 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College. 2 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:29,550 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, I'm your host, Kelly Preece for this episode. 3 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:34,800 We're going to be doing things a little bit differently. I'm delighted to be joined by Dr Charlotte Kelstead. 4 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:41,310 Charlotte graduated with her Ph.D. in history from the University of Exeter recently and is 5 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:46,740 currently working as an event coordinator at the European Centre for Palestine Studies. 6 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:49,200 But I'm not going to be talking to Charlotte about her career. 7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:57,690 In fact, we're switching around and instead Charlotte's going to be interviewing me about my career in research and higher education. 8 00:00:57,690 --> 00:01:02,550 So take it away, Charlotte. OK, fantastic so 9 00:01:02,550 --> 00:01:10,140 I have lots of questions for you because I feel like you've been part of my experience at Exeter for quite a long time. 10 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:19,890 So I remember when I was when I was back doing an undergraduate doing the Exeter The X Factor introductory thing about seven years ago. 11 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:23,370 I remember you being there and having a wonderful personality and brightening up, 12 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:31,170 brightening up the end of the day when we were all starting to flag a bit. So I'm just really interested to hear all about your career, 13 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:40,080 especially because I've just submitted my corrections and I'm now starting to think about careers beyond academia and within academia. 14 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:46,110 And I'm just really interested to hear today about how your career has progressed, things that you've learnt along the way. 15 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:51,330 Any advice you might have and how it's all come together to be where you are now. 16 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:56,320 So perhaps you could start by just giving us a bit of background on your career. 17 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:05,220 So how you got to where you are now? Yes, so am I. 18 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:16,950 I always say, like my, my career has been incredibly eclectic in every possible way, so I actually started working professionally when I was 14, I. 19 00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:22,080 So I was a theatre kid in all of its stereotypes. 20 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,330 And I was a dancer and an actor and a singer. 21 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:31,560 And so I was in the the youth company actually at the Northcott Theatre on the University of Exeter campus when I was a teenager. 22 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,570 And so I was working all through secondary school and then. 23 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:43,160 Decided kind of had a decision to make between going to stage school and going to university, I was always quite academic, 24 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:52,720 so I thought I'd go down the university route, but I did a degree in dance and theatre, perhaps unsurprisingly. 25 00:02:52,720 --> 00:03:02,290 And I always say, look, that within about a week of starting my undergraduate degree, I met a Ph.D. student who I just actually, 26 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:10,070 I think just passed his viva called Martin Hargreaves, who was one of our what at Exeter would be a PTA, 27 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:15,100 I guess, but he was our seminal teacher and one of our modules and. 28 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:23,260 He was great, you know, made a really great impression on me, but also he talked to us about his Ph.D. and about his research. 29 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:29,920 And I had this kind of moment of of clarity, you know, like clouds parting kind of aha. 30 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,840 Where I went. Oh, so this this you know, this discipline, this art that I love, 31 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,630 I can actually combine that with kind of my love of learning and my love of knowledge. 32 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:47,980 And I could become a researcher and I could become an academic. And even though I was going to university to do a degree in in that subject, 33 00:03:47,980 --> 00:03:53,380 it hadn't occurred to me that that was even a job that somebody could have say. 34 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:54,460 Right, right. 35 00:03:54,460 --> 00:04:01,720 From that beginning point in my undergraduate degree, I was like, right, I want to be an academic, wanted do a PhD, want to teach at university. 36 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:10,600 That was kind of so I made that decision really early on. And I'm kind of I'm quite a quite stubborn and relentless. 37 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,880 So, you know, once I make a decision to stick to it. So, you know, I I did my undergraduate degree. 38 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,650 I did a research master's, and then I got a post at the University of Leeds, 39 00:04:20,650 --> 00:04:28,180 which was to do my PhD part time and to be a member of academic staff in the department part time. 40 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:34,710 They called it a research associate and and. 41 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:38,520 And yeah, and that's how I that's how I became an academic, really. 42 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:45,110 And so I did that for six years. And during those six years, I. 43 00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:52,460 Did a myriad of things, I ended up leading undergraduate degree programmes and developing master's programmes and moving institutions, 44 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:57,680 but the one thing I didn't do in that period is complete my Ph.D. 45 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,750 So I. Really struggled. And with. 46 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:17,430 Work life balance and mental health and wellbeing, and worked far more than a 1.0 on kind of 0.5 research, 0.5 teaching, 47 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:31,980 and made myself very poorly and as a result, decided to withdraw from the PhD and concentrate on on on my teaching and. 48 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:41,560 And. That's sort of over time, I kind of I think I naively thought if I kind of let the structure and the time pressures of the PhD go 49 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,940 it might alleviate a bit. But it didn't because there's a cultural issue in He but  there's also a me issue in this. 50 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:56,740 I am a perfectionist. I am an overworker and I'm not very good at work life balance. 51 00:05:56,740 --> 00:06:03,320 And so I. Ended up in that position again once I moved to the University of Northampton, I did the same thing. 52 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:13,370 I was on a four day week lectureship and I was working. Six, if we're being conservative days a week, you know, eight in the morning till eight, 53 00:06:13,370 --> 00:06:20,960 nine at night, and I did the same thing, I worked myself until I was ill and completely burnt out. 54 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,060 And it was that second time that I had to take a step back and go, something's not working here. 55 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:29,570 I love teaching. I love research. I love working with students. 56 00:06:29,570 --> 00:06:34,940 Love, love working in HE. But something about this just does not work for me. 57 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:41,390 And it brings out qualities in me that make me unwell, you know, those kind of perfectionism and that sort of stuff. 58 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:51,020 So I. Oh. Sorry, cats just appeared and she wants to get involved I yeah, 59 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:55,900 so I kind of I reached this kind of crisis point and I always say, like, these things aren't just professional. 60 00:06:55,900 --> 00:07:04,450 These are personal as well as a part of that crisis point was that my my grandmother, who pretty much raised me, passed away unexpectedly. 61 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:12,430 And I was, you know, on the other side of the country marking undergraduate essays when I could have been with her. 62 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:19,620 And I think the whole thing kind of came to a head and I realised that I was doing the wrong thing. 63 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:28,510 And so I started to kind of have an existential crisis of, you know, I said when we started like I wanted to do this since I was 18. 64 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:34,810 I've never tried to get any experience and anything else, I'd had a part time job in a bookshop which was wonderful and gave me all sorts of skills, 65 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:38,440 but nonetheless, you know, what the hell was I going to go on to? 66 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,840 And people said, well, why don't you retrain as a secondary school teacher? I didn't want to retrain. 67 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,490 I'm not a fan of teenagers, certainly not en masse individually. 68 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,490 They're fine. And so there was all sorts of things and I just sort of signed up for lots of job alerts jobs.ac.uk 69 00:07:55,490 --> 00:08:00,250 all of that sort of stuff. And up comes this job at the University of Exeter. 70 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:04,870 And I knew I wanted to move back to Devon cause it's where I'm from for researcher development. 71 00:08:04,870 --> 00:08:11,680 Programme manager for PGRs was what it was called at the time to run training and development for PhD students. 72 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:21,940 And I thought, well, given my experience as an academic, given my experience as a Ph.D. student, you know, I feel like I've got. 73 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:28,450 I've got some credibility here and I've got some some interest in kind of making sure that other people haven't gone, 74 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:32,080 don't go through what I went through and that can learn from my mistakes. 75 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,410 And also, I got lots of teaching experience and all of that sort stuff. 76 00:08:35,410 --> 00:08:43,320 So I applied. And six years later and. 77 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:49,600 Here I am, I'm I'm still here and, you know. 78 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:57,130 A wonderful thing of serendipity where it was it was really a kind of shot in the dark, this job for me, 79 00:08:57,130 --> 00:09:03,250 I wasn't sure if I would like it, and I wasn't really sure if I was cut to be in professional services, 80 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:14,170 if I would be sorry, if I would encounter the same problems that I'd had as an academic with work life balance and kind of boundaries and also stuff. 81 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:18,100 But actually, it was the step removed that I needed. I still get to do all the things I love. 82 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,500 I still do teaching. I still do research. 83 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:27,850 But it's it's really been a way for me to channel what in some ways was quite a negative experience of being an academic 84 00:09:27,850 --> 00:09:36,140 into something really positive and to feel like I'm I'm kind of making a contribution to the sector or the system, 85 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:43,990 because whilst I recognise that a lot of my issues were were to do with my personality and who I am, also, you know, 86 00:09:43,990 --> 00:09:49,780 there are cultural issues in the sector to do with overwork and all those sorts of stuff and all those sorts of things. 87 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:55,630 And hopefully in the role that I'm in, I can do a little bit to help take that pressure off. 88 00:09:55,630 --> 00:10:04,060 New students coming in. And how did you find the shift when you moved away from the PhD into the professional services community? 89 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:09,280 Was that what you expected or were there aspects of that that you hadn't anticipated? 90 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:18,700 And how did you feel how did you feel that that community received you as someone who hadn't finished your PhD for various reasons? 91 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:25,960 How did you find that sort of introduction to that new area in terms of the transition? 92 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,550 I think I was worried about that kind of concept of failure, and I would be perceived as some form of failure. 93 00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:40,300 And I think inevitably for some people, perhaps some academics, that that is how they will see it. 94 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:47,140 Because, you know, academia is is is the goal. And certainly, you know, I guess I felt like that. 95 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:51,910 But for the majority of people, that's just not the case. 96 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:57,730 And I was worried about my credibility in terms of not having the PhD. 97 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:03,130 But again, actually, you know, I remember a conversation with one academic where. 98 00:11:03,130 --> 00:11:08,290 They found out I didn't have a Ph.D. and they seemed a bit kind of like a little bit taken aback, 99 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:16,480 and then they realised that I had spent five years teaching as a lecturer at Russell Group university. 100 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,020 And all of a sudden that, you know, that was completely, you know, 101 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:27,310 it was it became completely irrelevant that I didn't have the PhD because actually I have the experience of being an academic. 102 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:28,450 I've been a researcher. 103 00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:36,560 I may not have the letters before my name, but I have all of the kind of the credentials and the credibility through experience. 104 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:43,090 And that's what people value. And I find working with academic colleagues that it's really, 105 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:49,570 really valuable to be able to kind of empathise and really understand because I've been there, you know, I know what it's like. 106 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:54,490 And also, you know, in terms of professional services. 107 00:11:54,490 --> 00:12:04,600 I think what I didn't know before I went into professional services is how many people with PhDs are in professional services, 108 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,640 particularly in research services, in the doctoral college and my. 109 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:19,530 I mean, my to my my sort of equivalent at the when I started and my boss, both PhDs, that's still the case. 110 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:25,100 You know, I work with colleagues in kind of research funding and grants and also stuff. 111 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:30,900 So many with PhDs. I'm currently working on a project with the Climate Emergency Sustainability Team. 112 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:35,080 The head of that team also has a PhD, and these are all professional services. 113 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,130 So actually kind of you know, they're not everybody, 114 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:48,570 but so many people in that kind of supporting function of the university have made that transition from academia and or some form of research. 115 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:55,330 And so I felt that to be a really welcoming environment because it felt like. 116 00:12:55,330 --> 00:13:01,120 It felt like the right decision, if you see what I mean, I kind of stepped in and went, oh, this is this is the right thing. 117 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,600 This feels like my space and my people in a way. 118 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,840 And that must have been really important after. 119 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Going through a difficult period during the PhD to then changed career, which must have been incredibly intimidating, 120 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,960 to then move into that environment and feel welcome and know it's the right place for you. 121 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:29,360 That must have been really reassuring. And I think that that experience that you had, although of course, was awful at the time, 122 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:37,370 it does mean that you've been able to contribute more than someone who had a happy, easy experience. 123 00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:44,500 I agree that, you know what support a PhD student needs at different times. 124 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:50,960 And I think there's a lot of value in that. I think I think there's a lot of merit in the fact that, you know, 125 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:59,460 what students need and I'm interested in the researcher development programme that you've spearheaded at Exeter. 126 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:06,230 And was that something that you very quickly, once you switched, made the shift in your career? 127 00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:13,460 Did you know that that's what you wanted to put together or did that come together slowly after years of seeing the gaps, 128 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:19,100 once you were actually on the on the inside of some of the training side of things? 129 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:28,130 A combination, really. So I, I mean, I inherited I inherited a programme and it's it's changed quite significantly since I took it over. 130 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:36,170 But so there was the kind of there was the basis. So coming in as somebody knew, I had you know, I had a really good starting point. 131 00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:42,890 And then, you know, I had I had ideas, you know, right at the beginning of things I wanted to do. 132 00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:48,530 And, you know, we introduced this quickly in terms of wellbeing workshops and various different things, 133 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:52,550 all of which have evolved hugely since their introduction. 134 00:14:52,550 --> 00:15:03,170 But so there were some kind of immediate things and also moving more content online, which, you know, has turned out to work in our favour. 135 00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:09,620 But so there was some little kind of immediate things. But the rest has really been evolving. 136 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:15,890 And it wasn't until about three years ago that we kind of started the academic year and I went, 137 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:22,970 yeah, this is a this felt like a completely new programme. This felt like a completely new entity because it had been through sort of so many 138 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:29,960 iterations of change and because the experience of being a researcher and like you said, 139 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:40,340 I think having a negative experience, like I do believe that makes me uniquely placed to understand what people really need, 140 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:46,820 but also kind of being part of the landscape. And, you know, it's an area of practise and of scholarship in and of itself. 141 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:52,310 You know, there's a journal of researcher development and, you know. 142 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:57,980 It's its own kind of sector and its own research area and educational and career practise, 143 00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:03,890 and so, you know, you need to be kind of inducted into that to really understand. 144 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:10,450 And also, you know. Getting to know the university and getting to know the students, and that's something that I, 145 00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:17,370 I, I place a lot of importance of on is actually engaging with our academics, 146 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:29,480 meaningfully having difficult conversations and also, you know, engaging with our students and talking to them and being part of their community and. 147 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,070 Again, being open to having. 148 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:42,380 Difficult and challenging conversations, because I think sometimes. 149 00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:52,110 There's. I think sometimes people have a lot of things that they might want to say that's feedback or critique about things that they experience, 150 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:59,100 but they don't want to because they don't want to be perceived as annoying or argumentative or that, you know, 151 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:04,620 or they think actually the person doing this is really nice and didn't want to upset them or don't want to cause problems. 152 00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:11,970 And I'm always like, actually, if you don't tell me what the problems are, I can't offer I can't find the solutions. 153 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,840 And I'm always kind of like, tell me what's not working on the programme. 154 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,350 I don't take it personally. I need I need to know. 155 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:23,580 Because if I don't if you don't tell me what's wrong, then I'll assume everything's perfect. 156 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:28,020 I mean, I won't because that's not who I am. But I'll assume everything's fine and I'll continue as I am. 157 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:32,150 And actually that that doesn't achieve anything for any of us. 158 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:39,800 So so I think there's a kind of. An openness that's been really important to kind of hearing what hasn't worked for 159 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:47,000 people in the past and what still doesn't work for people and and how we might. 160 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:59,300 Bring about more change. So I see it is a constantly evolving entity and also I can't I'm you know, we've interacted in various ways. 161 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:05,270 You will know I'm not very good at sitting still or letting things sit as they are. 162 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:13,220 Just because something works doesn't mean it can't be made better. And so, yeah, I'm never the kind of person that's going to go, oh, that's done. 163 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:18,660 Now I'm going to I'm going to sit back and relax. I'm always going to find. 164 00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:25,350 Find things that need addressing and improving, you are a true perfectionist, I think. 165 00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:31,980 Yeah, I'm just screaming perfectionist to me. But actually I remember coming along to one of the sessions, 166 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:37,530 I think it was in that year that you're talking about where the programme started to feel quite different. 167 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:41,760 I think it was twenty twenty eighteen or. Yeah, yeah. 168 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,520 And you ran a session on perfection, perfectionism. 169 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:52,320 And for me it was really useful because I was briefly I was at that point writing my literature review and I was finding that there was, 170 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,070 as you know, from your PhD, there's so much literature out there and you think, gosh, 171 00:18:56,070 --> 00:19:02,620 I've got to have everything in my literature review and those perfectionist tendencies come out and you think you've got to write everything, 172 00:19:02,620 --> 00:19:06,970 but you just need to use the most relevant things to situate your work. 173 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:12,390 And I remember finding that such a useful session and I think so many people did. 174 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,980 But it's also for you. You were so friendly at that session. 175 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:26,100 But then it's difficult for you, I assume, to separate what you're doing and getting feedback on your sessions and from you 176 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,670 as a person because you have put so much effort into creating the programme. 177 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:37,230 So do you find that difficult taking on, although you're super encouraging about receiving feedback, do you find that difficult? 178 00:19:37,230 --> 00:19:45,570 Have you had to become more resilient as more students do the programme and might provide feedback which might be constructive, 179 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:49,680 but nevertheless still might be suggesting you change the way you do things? 180 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,530 Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. And I have had to. 181 00:19:55,530 --> 00:20:03,060 Develop a thicker skin, I mean, in some cases, we you know, in some ways we are used to that as an academic, you have to do that. 182 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:11,700 You know, I remember getting my first peer review back and which was not the most fun I've ever had and and various different things, 183 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,300 you know, where we're used to being challenged and critiqued in that way. 184 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:23,460 I think very similarly to with, you know, your research, you know, it's something that you're passionate about and you put your heart and soul into. 185 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:31,940 So when. When there is criticism or when something's not working, it's it's hard to hear, but I. 186 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:35,130 I do try and I try as much as I can separate things out. 187 00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:44,960 I always try to distance myself from any feedback I get first and go, okay, just take a step back and actually just always see it as right. 188 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,150 How how can I use this? What can I do with that? So that it doesn't just sit as an email that somebody has sent me a comment that 189 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:58,850 somebody makes to me at the end of the actual day actually becomes something, 190 00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:05,010 something changes as a result of it. And then that that feels like an in an empowering way to kind of deal with it. 191 00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:06,080 And also, you know, 192 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:17,180 apart from the odd case where people are in circumstances where they're particularly stressed or frustrated or overwhelmed or any of the above, 193 00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:27,590 where they might not articulate feedback in the kindest of ways, you know, that that's the exception rather than the rule most of the time, 194 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:32,240 particularly because I approach it on a kind of like I want to know what's wrong. 195 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,690 People are honest, but they're fair. And and they don't kind of it doesn't come from a place of attack. 196 00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:46,850 It really comes from a place of wanting to enter into a dialogue and to and to make things better as well. 197 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:51,620 And so that feels like a completely different conversation to have with somebody, because, you know, 198 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:59,600 I always get when people send feedback I get emails going, this is not about you or I know it's not your fault or something like that. 199 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:08,000 And actually, I don't need that because that's not necessary, because the tone and the way that they communicate, it's it's very supportive. 200 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:15,230 And I think, you know, that's the PGR community is incredibly vocal in so many ways, which is brilliant. 201 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:21,800 But actually, like in terms of, you know, being kind of embedded within it is so supportive. 202 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,380 So if there was someone listening to this conversation and they were feeling inspired by the way, 203 00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:36,570 you're talking about how we can change the support that is available for academics and PhD students, 204 00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:45,560 do you have advice on that shift from academia, as in being a PhD student into professional services? 205 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:54,440 Do you feel that you learnt, although it sounds like you had a relatively smooth transition into that aspect of your career, 206 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:02,930 do you have advice on what you might have done differently or how or perhaps even as well how someone can go about looking into these opportunities? 207 00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:11,390 Because I think that speaking as a PhD student at the moment, it can be difficult to know what's out there in the world of professional services. 208 00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:15,530 We tend to take it for granted. We get emails and we think that's a fact that looks like a really useful event. 209 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:20,390 I'll sign onto to that. But we don't know who's working behind the scenes and who does what. 210 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:24,980 So do you have advice on how you navigated that shift, what you might have done differently, 211 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:32,660 but also how we can as PhD students, how we can access those jobs or start to learn about what's out there? 212 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:40,310 Yeah, I think one of the reasons why the shift was quite easy for me is that so in Exeter my role is professional services in other institutions, 213 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:48,710 they sometimes call my role academic related, so much like the academic development team who run LTHE and all that sort of stuff. 214 00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:54,890 You know, we are roles are not purely professional services that they're very hybrid. 215 00:23:54,890 --> 00:24:03,110 And that's why what attracted me to it, because it allowed me to continue teaching and engaging with research and scholarship, 216 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:10,500 but in a slightly different kind of environment and context. So I think that's one of the reasons why. 217 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:22,580 It was a slightly easier. Transition for me, because it felt more familiar, I guess, to what I was already doing in terms of. 218 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:34,310 What I might have done differently. I think probably ties into the next thing, actually, which is about kind of how you find out about opportunities. 219 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:39,480 So, I mean, I just signed up for every I knew I wanted to move back to Devon. 220 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,460 I wasn't really sure what I was kind of qualified to do anything but work in higher education. 221 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:52,600 So I just signed up to. All the job alerts I could for, anything relating to higher education, 222 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,150 and I was getting literally everything I was getting like like rugby coach adverts to 223 00:24:58,150 --> 00:25:05,900 the university and also I wasn't filtering because I was aware that I knew so little. 224 00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:12,720 And. So part of it is a huge part of it is awareness raising, and I wish I'd done this earlier. 225 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:23,050 I wish I'd engaged with. Professional services earlier, and part of that is just kind of opening your eyes to the work that's going on around you. 226 00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:31,900 So, you know, if you're on a funded research grant or a DTP, there will be people supporting you. 227 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:37,240 There'll be some you know, if you're on a doctoral training partnership, there will be someone running the doctoral training partnership. 228 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:44,890 Quite possibly. That person has a Ph.D. And you know, if you're applying for grants as a postdoc, 229 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:48,370 there will be someone supporting you in research services that will be called. 230 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:52,570 They will be called a research development manager, not researcher development manager. 231 00:25:52,570 --> 00:25:59,170 It's cause of much confusion. But. 232 00:25:59,170 --> 00:26:03,820 You know, quite a lot of my colleagues, who do that role have PhDs, 233 00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:16,620 it's a very different role because it's much more advisory and it's much more project management and focussed, but actually. 234 00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:28,020 You'd be surprised how applicable everything you learn as a Ph.D. student is, and even though it may feel like chalk and cheese, 235 00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:33,240 actually more often than not it's the same thing, but in a different language. 236 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,240 And I talk about this. So my partner is an academic and we talk about this a lot and he gets frustrated 237 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,890 when I talk about things like and when I talk about in management speak and, 238 00:26:43,890 --> 00:26:48,570 you know, stakeholder analysis and like and market driven. 239 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:53,190 And I'm just trying to think of all the other kind of buzzwords and. 240 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:57,930 And I always say, but, you know, I talk about stakeholder mapping and stakeholder management, 241 00:26:57,930 --> 00:27:03,690 all I mean is talking to and engaging with students and academics and all the 242 00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:08,650 people that are relevant to the delivery of the researcher development programme. 243 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:17,230 It's not anything different. It's just. The different language, I have another question for you, which is a difficult question, 244 00:27:17,230 --> 00:27:23,980 but you run your various sessions on perfectionism or resilience, et cetera, 245 00:27:23,980 --> 00:27:29,360 and I was wondering to what extent you feel that you take the advice, the advice that you give, 246 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:37,170 do you take on board yourself or do you just things like that only really resonate with you when you hear them from someone else? 247 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:45,480 Oh, that's a really good question, because one of the also one of the things that's been really important to me as a 248 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:52,440 teacher has been what what is referred to in the literature as authentic teaching. 249 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:59,430 So it's about bringing yourself into the classroom. And it's not about kind of, you know, exposing your deepest, darkest secrets. 250 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:08,490 It's about being open and honest, sharing your experience of what you're talking about, sharing your failures or those sorts of things. 251 00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:14,400 And so, you know, particularly where I haven't been very good at things like perfectionism, work, life balance. 252 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:20,100 I try and bring that in sessions because I feel it humanises, you know what I'm saying? 253 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:27,690 It grounds it in real world experience. But also, you know. 254 00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:36,230 Being honest about the fact that I know so I know all of the kind of things that I taught people about literature review, 255 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:37,500 so I talk about literature reviews, 256 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:48,000 I talk about working habits, I talk about not checking email about, you know, dedicating time, kind of environment and all those sorts of things. 257 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,360 I know that they're true nine times out of ten. I don't necessarily do them, even though I know that they're true. 258 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,870 I do sometimes do them. But it's you know, I don't always take my own advice. 259 00:29:00,870 --> 00:29:08,910 And but that's a learning process. And I think being honest about that and saying, you know, I know the way that I'm supposed to do things. 260 00:29:08,910 --> 00:29:13,680 I know that I'm supposed to take regular breaks and I'm supposed to get away from my desk at lunch. 261 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,250 But, you know, I don't always do it. That's part of that process. 262 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:21,570 As part of that being open and humanising, it is saying, look, nobody's perfect. 263 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:28,590 Just because I've told you you need like research shows you need to take a break every five every 25 minutes for five minutes. 264 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:33,330 Doesn't mean when you leave this room or leave this team's call or whatever. 265 00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:40,170 that I expect that you're going to do that from now on or that you should expect that of yourself. 266 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:46,440 Yeah, absolutely. I know that when I have been to training sessions and the person delivering the training, 267 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,600 you might get the impression that they do all these things perfectly and it sort of creates a bit of a divide between you and them. 268 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,660 And you just think, well, I'm not like you, so I can't achieve any of this. 269 00:29:54,660 --> 00:30:00,390 Whereas when they say, actually, I'm not so good at this either, you think, OK, OK, that's that's that's normal. 270 00:30:00,390 --> 00:30:05,220 That's human. Maybe I can try and make a few of these changes that you're suggesting. 271 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,940 I think it's really important. I really am really passionate about it. 272 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:13,380 And it's it's also one of the reasons that one of the developments in the past couple of years, 273 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:18,990 we've got postgraduate teaching assistants delivering on the researcher development programme. 274 00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:23,460 So some of those sessions like literature reviews and various different things they can deliver. 275 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:30,810 And I think that that's really important as well, because it has it has a currency and they can share their experiences in a way that 276 00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:36,420 really makes it it makes it really real and really tangible for the people attending. 277 00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:38,800 And that's really important to me. 278 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:45,310 We learn so much more when it's someone who can who we can relate to, and there's something quite fundamental about that. 279 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:49,630 And with all these types of training, which again comes back to your position, 280 00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:54,850 in your experience of your Ph.D. and why you are creating such wonderful things because of your 281 00:30:54,850 --> 00:31:01,520 experiences and how things that might during your PhD might have felt that it was the end of the world. 282 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,750 And now looking back, you're able to take that long view and see that actually you've contributed a282 00:31:01,520 -->281 00:30:54,850 -->280 00:30:49,630 -->279 00:30:45,310 -->278 00:30:38,800 -->277 00:30:36,420 -->276 00:30:30,810 -->275 00:30:23,460 -->274 00:30:18,990 -->273 00:30:13,380 -->272 00:30:08,940 -->271 00:30:05,220 -->270 00:30:00,390 -->269 00:29:54,660 -->268 00:29:51,600 -->267 00:29:46,440 -->266 00:29:40,170 -->265 00:29:33,330 -->264 00:29:28,590 -->263 00:29:21,570 -->262 00:29:17,250 -->261 00:29:13,680 -->260 00:29:08,910 -->259 00:29:00,870 -->258 00:28:54,360 -->257 00:28:48,000 -->256 00:28:37,500 -->255 00:28:36,230 -->254 00:28:27,690 -->253 00:28:20,100 -->252 00:28:14,400 -->251 00:28:08,490 -->250 00:27:59,430 -->249 00:27:52,440 -->248 00:27:45,480 -->247 00:27:37,170 -->246 00:27:29,360 -->245 00:27:23,980 -->244 00:27:17,230 -->243 00:27:08,650 -->242 00:27:03,690 -->241 00:26:57,930 -->240 00:26:53,190 -->239 00:26:48,570 -->238 00:26:43,890 -->237 00:26:39,240 -->236 00:26:33,240 -->235 00:26:28,020 -->234 00:26:16,620 -->233 00:26:03,820 -->232 00:25:59,170 -->231 00:25:52,570 -->230 00:25:48,370 -->229 00:25:44,890 -->228 00:25:37,240 -->227 00:25:31,900 -->226 00:25:23,050 -->225 00:25:12,720 -->224 00:25:05,900 -->223 00:24:58,150 -->222 00:24:52,600 -->221 00:24:44,460 -->220 00:24:39,480 -->219 00:24:34,310 -->218 00:24:22,580 -->217 00:24:10,500 -->216 00:24:03,110 -->215 00:23:54,890 -->214 00:23:48,710 -->213 00:23:40,310 -->212 00:23:32,660 -->211 00:23:24,980 -->210 00:23:20,390 -->209 00:23:15,530 -->208 00:23:11,390 -->207 00:23:02,930 -->206 00:22:54,440 -->205 00:22:45,560 -->204 00:22:36,570 -->203 00:22:27,380 -->202 00:22:21,800 -->201 00:22:15,230 -->200 00:22:08,000 -->199 00:21:59,600 -->198 00:21:51,620 -->197 00:21:46,850 -->196 00:21:38,690 -->195 00:21:32,240 -->194 00:21:27,590 -->193 00:21:17,180 -->192 00:21:06,080 -->191 00:21:05,010 -->190 00:20:58,850 -->189 00:20:53,150 -->188 00:20:44,960 -->187 00:20:35,130 -->186 00:20:31,940 -->185 00:20:23,460 -->184 00:20:15,300 -->183 00:20:11,700 -->182 00:20:03,060 -->181 00:19:55,530 -->180 00:19:49,680 -->179 00:19:45,570 -->178 00:19:37,230 -->177 00:19:29,670 -->176 00:19:26,100 -->175 00:19:16,980 -->174 00:19:12,390 -->173 00:19:06,970 -->172 00:19:02,620 -->171 00:18:56,070 -->170 00:18:52,320 -->169 00:18:44,520 -->168 00:18:41,760 -->167 00:18:37,530 -->166 00:18:31,980 -->165 00:18:25,350 -->164 00:18:18,660 -->163 00:18:13,220 -->162 00:18:05,270 -->161 00:17:59,300 -->160 00:17:47,000 -->159 00:17:39,800 -->158 00:17:32,150 -->157 00:17:28,020 -->156 00:17:23,580 -->155 00:17:19,350 -->154 00:17:15,840 -->153 00:17:11,970 -->152 00:17:04,620 -->151 00:16:59,100 -->150 00:16:52,110 -->149 00:16:42,380 -->148 00:16:34,070 -->147 00:16:29,480 -->146 00:16:17,370 -->145 00:16:10,450 -->144 00:16:03,890 -->143 00:15:57,980 -->142 00:15:52,310 -->141 00:15:46,820 -->140 00:15:40,340 -->139 00:15:29,960 -->138 00:15:22,970 -->137 00:15:15,890 -->136 00:15:09,620 -->135 00:15:03,170 -->134 00:14:52,550 -->133 00:14:48,530 -->132 00:14:42,890 -->131 00:14:36,170 -->130 00:14:28,130 -->129 00:14:19,100 -->128 00:14:13,460 -->127 00:14:06,230 -->126 00:13:59,460 -->125 00:13:50,960 -->124 00:13:44,500 -->123 00:13:37,370 -->122 00:13:29,360 -->121 00:13:20,960 -->120 00:13:16,040 -->119 00:13:08,840 -->118 00:13:05,600 -->117 00:13:01,120 -->116 00:12:55,330 -->115 00:12:48,570 -->114 00:12:38,130 -->113 00:12:35,080 -->112 00:12:30,900 -->111 00:12:25,100 -->110 00:12:19,530 -->109 00:12:10,640 -->108 00:12:04,600 -->107 00:11:54,490 -->106 00:11:49,570 -->105 00:11:43,090 -->104 00:11:36,560 -->103 00:11:28,450 -->102 00:11:27,310 -->101 00:11:20,020 -->100 00:11:16,480 -->99 00:11:08,290 -->98 00:11:03,130 -->97 00:10:57,730 -->96 00:10:51,910 -->95 00:10:47,140 -->94 00:10:40,300 -->93 00:10:33,550 -->92 00:10:25,960 -->91 00:10:18,700 -->90 00:10:09,280 -->89 00:10:04,060 -->88 00:09:55,630 -->87 00:09:49,780 -->86 00:09:43,990 -->85 00:09:36,140 -->84 00:09:27,850 -->83 00:09:20,500 -->82 00:09:18,100 -->81 00:09:14,170 -->80 00:09:03,250 -->79 00:08:57,130 -->78 00:08:49,600 -->77 00:08:43,320 -->76 00:08:35,410 -->75 00:08:32,080 -->74 00:08:28,450 -->73 00:08:21,940 -->72 00:08:11,680 -->71 00:08:04,870 -->70 00:08:00,250 -->69 00:07:55,490 -->68 00:07:48,490 -->67 00:07:43,840 -->66 00:07:38,440 -->65 00:07:34,810 -->64 00:07:28,510 -->63 00:07:19,620 -->62 00:07:12,430 -->61 00:07:04,450 -->60 00:06:55,900 -->59 00:06:51,020 -->58 00:06:41,390 -->57 00:06:34,940 -->56 00:06:29,570 -->55 00:06:26,060 -->54 00:06:20,960 -->53 00:06:13,370 -->52 00:06:03,320 -->51 00:05:56,740 -->50 00:05:48,940 -->49 00:05:41,560 -->48 00:05:31,980 -->47 00:05:17,430 -->46 00:05:04,750 -->45 00:04:57,680 -->44 00:04:52,460 -->43 00:04:45,110 -->42 00:04:38,520 -->41 00:04:34,710 -->40 00:04:28,180 -->39 00:04:20,650 -->38 00:04:15,880 -->37 00:04:10,600 -->36 00:04:01,720 -->35 00:03:54,460 -->34 00:03:53,380 -->33 00:03:47,980 -->32 00:03:39,630 -->31 00:03:34,840 -->30 00:03:29,920 -->29 00:03:23,260 -->28 00:03:15,100 -->27 00:03:10,070 -->26 00:03:02,290 -->25 00:02:52,720 -->24 00:02:43,160 -->23 00:02:37,570 -->22 00:02:31,560 -->21 00:02:24,330 -->20 00:02:22,080 -->19 00:02:16,950 -->18 00:02:05,220 -->17 00:01:56,320 -->16 00:01:51,330 -->15 00:01:46,110 -->14 00:01:40,080 -->13 00:01:31,170 -->12 00:01:23,370 -->11 00:01:19,890 -->10 00:01:10,140 -->9 00:01:02,550 -->8 00:00:57,690 -->7 00:00:49,200 -->6 00:00:46,740 -->5 00:00:41,310 -->4 00:00:34,800 -->3 00:00:29,550 -->2 00:00:23,790 -->1 00:00:10,880 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Ruth Gilligan, Senior Lecturer in Creative Writing at Birmingham University and author of The Butchers. Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,910 --> 00:00:23,720 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter. 2 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,600 Hello and welcome back to Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,830 I'm really delighted to be back with you after our summer hiatus and to be bringing to you a conversation with Dr. Ruth Gilligan. 4 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:38,810 Ruth is a senior lecturer and academic, but also because she's in creative writing. 5 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:46,010 She is a published author. And so I thought it would be interesting for us to have a conversation with someone who is an 6 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:52,820 academic but maintains a professional profile and creative practise alongside their academic work. 7 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:57,890 So Ruth, happy to introduce herself, certainly. Well, firstly, thanks so much for having me. 8 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:04,400 It's lovely to be chatting to you and reminiscing a little bit about my time at Exeter. 9 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:12,650 I came to Exeter in two thousand and eleven to start my PhD in creative writing, 10 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:18,110 and then I actually went straight for my PhD into my first academic job. 11 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:24,860 I the first interview I went for my creative writing role had come up at the University of Birmingham. 12 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:31,010 So despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I was like, ah sure, I'll apply and see what happens. 13 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:40,790 And anyway, I got offered a job. So I started as a lecturer in creative writing at the University of Birmingham in kind of August twenty fourteen, 14 00:01:40,790 --> 00:01:44,690 at which point I was still in the final two or three months of my PhD. 15 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:50,900 So I was kind of trying to pretend that I was a lecturer and seem very grown up and important to my students, 16 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:58,880 despite the fact that I was secretly still a student myself and trying furiously to dot all the T's and cross all the I's on my thesis. 17 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:07,040 So yeah, it was a bit of a mad time, but yeah, then I started out at Birmingham and seven, maybe eight years later I'm still there. 18 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:16,610 So I'm now a senior lecturer. Since that time, I've also published two more novels and I had published three novels before my PhD at Exeter, 19 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:23,660 but I went on to publish two more, one of which was the novel that I wrote as part of my creative writing PhD. 20 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:26,960 And then my most recent book The Butchers came out last year. 21 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:35,300 So yes, I am now kind of fully fledged novelist, academic, creative writing lecturer and still very much in touch with Sam 22 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:41,090 And Sinead my two wonderful supervisors and have very, very fond memories of working with them. 23 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:43,490 There's a number of things I think I want to pick up on in that. 24 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:50,120 And the first is something that comes up a surprising amount, actually, in talking to people for this podcast, 25 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:58,430 which is about kind of seeing an opportunity when you've not actually finished the PhD and going for it and getting it, 26 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:05,060 and then how you go about juggling, working and finishing up. 27 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:13,820 Could you talk a little bit about what that experience was like, kind of managing the workload of working whilst also finishing the PhD? 28 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:21,350 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, part of me looks back at that and thinks, what did I eat for breakfast that morning? 29 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:26,870 That I had the kind of gumption to apply for a job, despite the fact that I hadn't even finished the PhD. 30 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:34,940 In the spirit of full disclosure, the job was actually a senior lecturer role, which I definitely wasn't qualified for, 31 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:42,620 but I applied and they ended up basically giving the senior lectureship to someone else who was duly qualified, 32 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:46,820 but then creating a new lecturer in creative writing role, which they offered to me. 33 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:55,700 So I'm a big believer in. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I hadn't applied and taking my punch, yeah, that wouldn't have played out that way. 34 00:03:55,700 --> 00:04:01,760 So, yeah, I'm a big believer. Just throwing your hat in the ring and see what happens in terms of managing the workload. 35 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 I mean, you know, realistically, I was at the tail end of the PhD. 36 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Like, I'm not someone who had kind of left all the work at the last minute, like both Sam and Sinead, my supervisors, 37 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,130 like they've been very good about making sure that I was making steady progress 38 00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:20,090 and I'd already written multiple drafts of both the creative and the critical. 39 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:25,640 So although those last few months are always going to be quite panicked and quite frantic, 40 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,750 just because you are about to submit this thing that you've been working on for three years, 41 00:04:29,750 --> 00:04:33,500 it wasn't like I still had kind of half the thing to write. Like I had. 42 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:39,860 I had written multiple drafts. I was just kind of finessing and going through my bibliography and all that kind of boring stuff. 43 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:41,340 So, yeah, it was a lot. 44 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:50,270 But it also coincided with me like I moved to Birmingham and when I first started the job, so I kind of was in a new city, my my partner. 45 00:04:50,270 --> 00:04:54,050 Who's that at the time He was my boyfriend. Now he's my husband. he at that same time 46 00:04:54,050 --> 00:05:01,640 Ictually moved to Singapore for six months. So I just kind of find myself living in this little flat in Birmingham on my own. 47 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,740 I didn't really know anyone in the city. I was starting a new job. I was also finishing my Ph.D. 48 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:10,660 So, yeah, I probably wasn't the most social time of my life. 49 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:15,130 Fundamentally, I managed to get it all done, and I'm delighted that it played out the way it did. 50 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:19,630 You know, my my big fear, the reason I kind of pursued doing it that way, 51 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:24,610 even though it was a bit nuts, was I think like so many people in academia, the fear of, like, 52 00:05:24,610 --> 00:05:31,510 not knowing what the next step is going to be or the idea of kind of having a gap before you figure out the next thing you know, 53 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:36,850 have plenty of friends and colleagues who've had that situation where there is a gap when they go from one thing to the other. 54 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:42,400 But I know from my own personality type that I would have just been absolutely freaking out if I didn't have something lined up. 55 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:48,850 So I would rather kind of take on too much in there, be perhaps a bit of overlap rather than being in the desert, not knowing. 56 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:54,340 So, yeah, it was worth it in that regards. I wanted to kind of take a step back, 57 00:05:54,340 --> 00:06:03,580 step back to that point of applying now and I'm really interested when you said that it was kind of a it was a senior lecturer role, 58 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:06,400 but you kind of nothing ventured, nothing gained, kind of went for it. 59 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,850 And actually, you may not have got that role, but something else came out of it. 60 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:16,250 Were there any particular challenges that you felt that you were coming up against because you were still a Ph.D. student? 61 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:23,990 Yeah, and it's a it's a great question, I think I should say, again, in the interest of full disclosure, like I mentioned briefly, 62 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:29,780 but like despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I had published three novels before I did the book. 63 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:36,110 So I, um, I do appreciate that that might not be the case with all PhD students. 64 00:06:36,110 --> 00:06:38,750 So I kind of had the publishing track records. 65 00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:47,600 I think the big gap and this is where kind of Sam and Sinead were particularly helpful was because it was my first academic application 66 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:57,350 interview and ultimately post just kind of plugging in a little bit to university speak like I didn't really know at that point, 67 00:06:57,350 --> 00:07:09,230 having only been a student albeit a Ph.D. students, I learnt phrases like REF and outputs and impact and all these kind of buzzwords that 68 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:18,080 we're going to come up in my interview and I and they were going to quiz me on. So kind of swotting up a little bit on that vernacular. 69 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,550 But yeah, I think, you know, in those situations, I'm kind of like, what's the worst thing that could happen? 70 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:30,950 I just think that, as you said, just getting your name in front of people and maybe they don't even shortlist you for that particular role, 71 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:39,410 but they'll still lodge at the back of their minds the next time they are looking for something or someone with your set of expertise, 72 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:46,100 your or kind of a prior prior knowledge of you were already going to be at the back of their minds. 73 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:51,860 I do think, like I read various things as well, that I do think there's something slightly gendered as well in terms of, 74 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:55,940 you know, they've done various studies whereby women only apply for jobs, 75 00:07:55,940 --> 00:08:05,120 where they have all of the required skills, whereas men are much more likely if they've got half or even less, they'll be they'll still go for it. 76 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:14,060 So I think that I am always keen in life to kind of be challenging those kind of gender stereotypes or whatever. 77 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,850 So, yeah, I just I just thought, what what's the worst that can happen? 78 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:23,480 And I think, you know, like, I remember going for my undergraduate interview and I remember, like, 79 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:31,250 the last thing someone said to me going in to class was like, they don't expect you to be perfect and to know everything. 80 00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:36,800 But just having that willingness to learn and that potential, if they can see that, that's really all they want. 81 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 So I don't think it's totally dissimilar within a job capacity. 82 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,930 Like with the academic world, they could see that I'd never, you know I'd done teaching and stuff at Exeter, 83 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:49,100 but I've never worked full time in an academic role before. 84 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:56,840 But they could see that I was able to, as I said, swot up on that front I and familiarise myself with the kind of university landscape. 85 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,590 And I was going to give it literally everything. So as long as they saw thatthey knew that I was going to be able to to do the job. 86 00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:09,050 And as I said, seven years later, I'm still there. So they were right. 87 00:09:09,050 --> 00:09:17,750 Very much so, and I think that's really important and that that point about it's not about perfection, it's about potential. 88 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:22,010 It's about willingness to learn and openness to that. 89 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:31,550 And it got me thinking about what experiences you had when you were doing your Ph.D. that you found were 90 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:38,570 really beneficial in helping you kind of apply for and secure that first job with that particular things, 91 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:46,850 or was it just the kind of guidance and mentorship of your supervisors? I mean, as I mentioned, I did so I did do quite a lot of teaching. 92 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:54,680 I and then also while I was there, I did my I think it was called the LTHE 93 00:09:54,680 --> 00:10:01,160 So the learning and teaching and higher education. I did the kind of first bit 94 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,110 So I remember doing that. And it was one of those things where you go along and you don't really know what to expect. 95 00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:12,260 And some of it was quite theoretical and some of it was quite abstract and some of it was quite practical and Hands-On. 96 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:15,920 And inevitably, though, when you're doing the breakout groups of the workshop sessions, 97 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,580 you get lunch with the the scientists who are like, what creative writing that isn't a real subject. 98 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:23,360 Why are you going to try and teach that? They have to spend half of the time defending it. 99 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,050 But all that being said, I did actually find it really, really useful. 100 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:31,700 And that was kind of my first induction into kind of really thinking about teaching 101 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:36,860 and lecturing and what what it involves and what kind of teacher I might become. 102 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:40,220 So I did actually find that really useful and then being able to put it into practise. 103 00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:51,840 As I said with those sessions, I also taught at the Edinburgh University run this the Scottish Universities International Summer School thing, 104 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,670 and it's just a four week course, but they get students from all over the world. 105 00:10:55,670 --> 00:11:01,250 And basically I was tasked with designing and then delivering a four week creative writing course 106 00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:09,590 for these these overseas students who kind of ranged from anything eighteen to twenty five. 107 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:16,220 So that was like another great opportunity for me. And this time I had complete autonomy to decide what what they were going to read, 108 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,680 what they were going to do, how the whole thing was going to be structured. 109 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,180 So again, I was slightly throwing me in at the deep end because I had had so much freedom. 110 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:29,540 But again, it was a brilliant opportunity for me to kind of flex my teaching chops. 111 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:32,960 I think that's mixing multiple metaphors, but yeah, just to give it a go. 112 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,210 So then when I did finally start Birmingham, I did actually have quite a lot of not a lot, 113 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,000 but like a good amount of teaching experience under my belt. 114 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,000 And I could also say that I have been in a position whereby I'd have to kind of curate and design a course, myself. 115 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,930 So that was a really, really useful stuff. Yeah, I was thinking that and that summer school opportunity, actually, 116 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:58,870 that's that's where you kind of have that additional experience where you go beyond teaching 117 00:11:58,870 --> 00:12:04,270 seminars or doing lectures and to actually thinking about designing and setting curriculum, 118 00:12:04,270 --> 00:12:10,240 which, of course, is not something you necessarily get to get involved in when you were a Ph.D. student, 119 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,100 but is a huge part of being being an academic. 120 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:20,410 Yeah, and I think I'm always kind of encouraging people to look look out for opportunities like that. 121 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,750 I think, you know, within the creative writing world, anyway, 122 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:30,710 there are various summer schools or workshop scenarios or one off taster's or a six week courses or whatever. 123 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:36,520 So I think like anything, getting anything like that under your belt, I think is is hugely useful. 124 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:44,800 You know, it's not necessarily the case that you just have to have loads and loads and loads of very specific undergraduate or postgraduate teaching. 125 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,300 It's just any sort of any sort of experience, especially, as you said, 126 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:55,100 if there is some kind of design or management element attached to that, the more so the better. 127 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:59,450 Was there anything particular in research terms that you did, 128 00:12:59,450 --> 00:13:09,260 or was it just kind of the process of doing the Ph.D. that really kind of stood you in good stead to then move on to an academic role? 129 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,610 And it's a good question. 130 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:18,690 I think the whole point of me doing the PhD, this is already alluded to like I had published three novels before, before starting at Exeter. 131 00:13:18,690 --> 00:13:23,850 But those novels were very much they were very commercial. They were very much based on personal experience, 132 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:30,500 like they were kind of all of kind of young people in Dublin growing up and doing stupid things and finding their way. 133 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:37,310 Well, it's very much based on my own life and my own encounters. And I sort of after the third one was published, 134 00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:42,320 I sort of realised that although I definitely did want to keep writing and publishing and going forwards, 135 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,540 these weren't necessarily the kinds of books that I was interested in and in pursuing. 136 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:51,380 So I kind of took a break to figure out what kind of books do I want to do. 137 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,690 And I realised that the books I love to read were actually books that had nothing to do with my own personal experience. 138 00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:01,220 You know, there were novels set in different portions of history or engaging with different cultures or 139 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:05,510 parts of the world or whatever where and where I kind of learn something when I was reading that. 140 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:08,840 So I was really interested in, well, could I write a book like that? Like, 141 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:16,590 could I write a book that would require me to go away and do a lot of research and interview a lot of people and really kind of expand my horizons. 142 00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:21,740 And I'm kind of right outside of my own first hand experience. So that was a real journey for me. 143 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:28,760 And that was what was kind of about. I was doing a lot of research in the very traditional sense, like I did a lot of archival work. 144 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440 I went that the novel was based around the history of the Jewish community in Ireland. 145 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,320 So I travelled all over Ireland interviewing people. I was down in Cork and some archives there. 146 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,220 I actually went to Israel to interview the Irish community that's now living out there. 147 00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:48,770 So I really was doing that kind of library based or to field research kind of 148 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:54,530 stuff that you might not necessarily associate with with with creative writing. 149 00:14:54,530 --> 00:15:00,410 And then, of course, I had folders and folders and folders, notes. And I was like, OK, how on earth do I translate this into a novel? 150 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:06,500 So a lot of my PhD was then trying to marry this kind of factual research that I'd 151 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:11,750 acquired with a story and characters and craft and all of those kinds of things. 152 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:20,640 So so figuring out all of that was was a real took a long time and that's why I needed the three years of a PhD. 153 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Also, as I mentioned, the novel was about the Jewish community in Ireland. 154 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:25,970 I'm not Jewish myself. 155 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:34,910 So I was very aware when I was working on this project of my own kind of position and and whether it was it OK that I was writing this novel, 156 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:39,590 how ethically what were the challenges formerly Practically all this kind of stuff. 157 00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:41,870 And then, as I mentioned right at the start, 158 00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:50,360 the critical part of my PhD was then looking at other Irish authors who have similarly written about minority communities or groups that 159 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:57,800 they're not necessarily a member of themselves and kind of the way that they have navigated that potentially kind of tricky territory. 160 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:04,400 So that academic thinking and looking at other authors that very much informed my own practise. 161 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:13,550 So, again, that kind of circular process of research and reflection and then writing, just figuring out how that all works. 162 00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:18,860 And then, you know, it was lovely that after the PhD, I went on to publish the novel, 163 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:23,520 but I also went on to publish the critical portion as an academic article in the Journal. 164 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,120 So even at that point, I was I was still thinking of my research as both creative and critical. 165 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,710 And I know that when I went to the interview of Birmingham, that was something they were really keen on, 166 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:39,560 that I was someone who was doing both these kinds of research side by side and saw them very much in 167 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,630 conversation and informing each other and was going to kind of generate different types of output. 168 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:48,560 So that really helped me kind of figure out what kind of academic I wanted to be. 169 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,370 I didn't necessarily want to be just an English academic or just a creative writing academic. 170 00:16:52,370 --> 00:17:03,710 I kind of wanted to be both. I think that's really important and acknowledging the kind of the identity side of things, even if you're not kind of. 171 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:10,100 A creative practitioner or doing kind of practise both works of art about thinking about your identity. 172 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:12,680 Increasingly, PhDs are interdisciplinary. 173 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,220 And so then there's a question about, well, where do you sit in terms of discipline and department and and those aspects of identity as well? 174 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:27,650 It's something that a lot of people are grappling with in lots of different ways when they're looking at moving into an academic post. 175 00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:32,600 And I wondered if you could say a little bit more about the job application and the 176 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,640 interview and what what it practically involves the did you have to submit a CV, 177 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:43,870 a cover letter, a supporting statement? Like what? Do you remember what actually you had to. 178 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:54,770 Had to do as part of the process. Yeah, so I definitely remember all the things you've mentioned in terms of CV, a personal statement, a kind of. 179 00:17:54,770 --> 00:18:01,530 You know, various samples of my work, et cetera. The main thing I remember is the day itself. 180 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:05,350 There were kind of two parts to it. The first was a presentation. 181 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:12,660 So I had to give a presentation. And there about 20 people that I remember being slightly overwhelmed by how many people were in the room. 182 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:20,430 And I get I basically gave a presentation on sort of what I've just spoken about in terms of the kind of creative and critical aspects 183 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:30,390 of my research and how those two things are in conversation and how I might be able to envisage them developing going forward. 184 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:34,290 So that was in the morning. And then they made us have lunch with all the other candidates, 185 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:40,710 which seems like one of the cruellest things anyone's ever done is to make you have lunch with people that you're competing with for the same role. 186 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:44,800 So I think they've actually discontinued that because that is horrid. 187 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:54,660 It was awful. And then in the afternoon, then I had an interview with about eight people, like it was, again, quite overwhelming. 188 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,470 Yeah, some from creative writing, some from English, some from the wider college. 189 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:05,700 And then I think they have to have a couple of people from completely different parts of the university just almost as kind of a neutral party. 190 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,910 So it was like a guy there from geography and there was someone else there. 191 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:15,840 So, yeah, it was a real mix. And they asked me like a really wide range of questions. 192 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:25,920 I mean, I think I remember one woman. Her main job was to make me list out, like what we're going to be my four output's over the next few years. 193 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Again, just universities thinking in REF terms and always wanting to know what items of research you're going to actually produce. 194 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,040 So I sort of had to come up with the list of some things that I did actually end up delivering. 195 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,290 But I was kind of put on the spot a little bit with that one. They want to talk a little bit about impact and 196 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:52,500 So that's another. When I was interviewing back in twenty fourteen, I was kind of a buzz words. 197 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,520 I was just starting to emerge and it's now consumed my life for the last few years. 198 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,590 I'm actually now in to lead for our schools. So while talking and thinking about impact. 199 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:05,490 But back then I was just a PhD student who had learned a new word recently. 200 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:15,900 So I had to kind of real off ideas. I had to pertaining to that. So, yeah, it was a bit it was it was all, you know, friendly but marginally intense. 201 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,320 And then I went away thinking, well, I've given it a shot. 202 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:29,280 That's fine. And then they actually the head of college actually emailed me that night actually to say, yeah, we're not you know, 203 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:36,570 obviously you're far too junior to get the senior lecturer role that we had originally advertised, 204 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:40,110 but we're actually going to create this new role for you. Would you like it? 205 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:45,090 So that happened within a matter of hours, which was on Monday. 206 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:48,390 So that was a good day trip to Birmingham, 207 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:58,950 although a lot of people's anxiety about job applications in the application process is about the unknown and what it involves. 208 00:20:58,950 --> 00:21:06,090 And actually it involves some pretty standard things. But at the same time, you know, there's some things that you might get in terms of, 209 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,400 you know, we are driven by outputs and impact and all of those buzzwords. 210 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:19,200 And so, you know, being able to talk about how, you know, what your what your plan is for your research outputs, 211 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:29,520 what if you've got some publications that you'd like to adapt parts of your PhD to become or any kind of ideas about, 212 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,720 you know, spinoff project  from your work 213 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:39,690 actually that sort of thinking about what might be possible in the future is quite helpful because it's likely to be asked about in that context, 214 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:43,350 because they want to know what you'll do when you're there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 215 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:49,410 I think I hadn't quite anticipated how much how far forward they would be looking 216 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:53,760 because I thought I was coming in really well prepared with this idea that, 217 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,340 like, wow, I'm writing a creative and critical thing for my my PhD. 218 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:04,020 So hopefully going forward, I'd like to publish both of those aspects. 219 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:10,380 So there's two outputs already lined up and almost ready to go. 220 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:15,240 And they were like, yeah, OK, cool and what about After that. I was like, oh, right, OK. 221 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:23,700 And I remember it's so funny. I remember them just like racking racking my brain because obviously I was put on the spot and I did at the very, 222 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:32,440 very back of my mind, have a tiny, tiny germ of an idea for the next novel and all. 223 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,630 I really had very little except that I knew I wanted to be called the butchers. 224 00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:41,870 So I remember saying that as I was like oh my next books going to be called The Butchers, and it's going to be set in rural Ireland. 225 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:48,180 I made it up. I honestly didn't know I hadn't even applied my brain to thinking about it because I was still finishing the previous one. 226 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:54,530 And I remember during that really quite awkward lunch with the other candidates, two of my. 227 00:22:54,530 --> 00:23:01,280 Colleagues came up to me separately in the lunch, and their main comment was wow The Butchers is such a good title for a novel. 228 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,980 I can't wait to read it. And I was laughing to myself. I was like, this is literally something I've kind of come up with on the spot. 229 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:09,590 Like they both said it to me. 230 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:15,970 And then when Ninefolds, which was my novel, did end up getting published and I was moving on to thinking about the next thing, 231 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:18,980 I was like, maybe I should actually write that book called The Butchers. 232 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:24,920 And sure enough, I spent the next four years researching and writing a novel called The Butchers, which came out last year. 233 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,260 So what sort of was a bit of a blg on the day of my interview ultimately became reality. 234 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:36,820 So there you go. And not only that, but one, the Royal Society of Literature. 235 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,230 Ondjante, I'm not even know if I'm saying that, right, Ondjante 236 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:45,740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fabulous. 237 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:53,300 Congratulations and it's fascinating to me to hear that, you know, 238 00:23:53,300 --> 00:24:01,100 this prize winning book came from a kind of something that sat in the back of your head in a job interview and came out. 239 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:06,120 Yeah, well, once I'd said it out loud I felt like I probably had to go away and do it. And just so I'm probably glad I did. 240 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,480 noe as you said, it went onto to do quite well. Say Happy Days. 241 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,930 I always like to end on kind of a twofold note, which is. 242 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:28,500 In terms of the reality of being an academic and making that transition from being a Ph.D. student to to a lecturer. 243 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:38,480 What do you wish that you knew or what advice do you wish you'd been given before you made that transition? 244 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:47,720 That is a good question. I mean, I think one thing I'm really at this point, like I haven't 245 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:55,040 Explicitly said it, but I am aware that it is quite unusual to go straight from your PhD to an academic job and not do a postdoc. 246 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:01,400 So I know that like the majority of my colleagues, that is the route they took. 247 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:08,030 So I sort of skipped that stage, mostly because I think postdocs in creative writing just weren't really a thing at that point 248 00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:13,700 So it's just like a slightly different way. The discipline works. I think just harking back to our earlier conversation, to be honest, 249 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:20,540 I think the main thing I wish people had told me is a just just take a punch, just like if something comes off, 250 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:26,180 like even if sometimes even now when we're advertising jobs or other institutions, 251 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:32,540 advertising jobs, it might say creative writing, lecturer brackets, poetry, focus. 252 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:38,810 And you're thinking to yourself, oh, rats. I write short stories. So I'm not going to be I'm not going to be suitable for that. 253 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:43,970 Just apply. Just apply. You never know again. They might not get any good poetry people. 254 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,440 They might see your application and think, 255 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,350 actually this person can slot in here and we can just move some stuff around and cover the poetry stuff some other way. 256 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:55,970 I just think literally, as I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. 257 00:25:55,970 --> 00:26:01,610 And then finally, just to reiterate that, like when it comes to the application and the interview process, 258 00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:05,930 if it is a question of just kind of brushing up on you're kind of university speak 259 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,360 and trying to get your head around exactly what they're going to ask you, 260 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,540 just talk to your supervisors or other lecturers who've been through this, because that was honestly that was a game changer. 261 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:20,480 I can still remember the cafe in East London where I had lunch with one of my supervisors, 262 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,910 and she walked me through all these key terms and was able to predict all the questions they would ask me. 263 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,970 And if it weren't for that brunch, like I would have been nowhere. 264 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:36,500 But because she had so kindly prepped me and was able to anticipate exactly the kind of notes that I would need to hit, like I got the job. 265 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,910 So I just think don't be afraid to kind of ask for advice from people who have been 266 00:26:40,910 --> 00:26:46,000 through it and who know exactly what what buttons are going to need to press. 267 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:54,460 Thank you so much to Ruth for taking the time to talk to me. I thought there was so much in there in terms of advice about applying for academic jobs. 268 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,540 That's really, really pertinent. 269 00:26:55,540 --> 00:27:06,190 And I've actually created an infographic to go alongside the podcast that capture some of that really, really fabulous insight. 270 00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:22,046 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree. 1 00:00:10,910 --> 00:00:23,720 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter. 2 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,600 Hello and welcome back to Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,830 I'm really delighted to be back with you after our summer hiatus and to be bringing to you a conversation with Dr. Ruth Gilligan. 4 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:38,810 Ruth is a senior lecturer and academic, but also because she's in creative writing. 5 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:46,010 She is a published author. And so I thought it would be interesting for us to have a conversation with someone who is an 6 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:52,820 academic but maintains a professional profile and creative practise alongside their academic work. 7 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:57,890 So Ruth, happy to introduce herself, certainly. Well, firstly, thanks so much for having me. 8 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:04,400 It's lovely to be chatting to you and reminiscing a little bit about my time at Exeter. 9 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:12,650 I came to Exeter in two thousand and eleven to start my PhD in creative writing, 10 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:18,110 and then I actually went straight for my PhD into my first academic job. 11 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:24,860 I the first interview I went for my creative writing role had come up at the University of Birmingham. 12 00:01:24,860 -->12 00:01:24,860 -->11 00:01:18,110 -->10 00:01:12,650 -->9 00:01:04,400 -->8 00:00:57,890 -->7 00:00:52,820 -->6 00:00:46,010 -->5 00:00:38,810 -->4 00:00:33,830 -->3 00:00:26,600 -->2 00:00:23,720 -->1 00:00:10,910 -->270 00:27:06,190 -->269 00:26:55,540 -->268 00:26:54,460 -->267 00:26:46,000 -->266 00:26:40,910 -->265 00:26:36,500 -->264 00:26:28,970 -->263 00:26:25,910 -->262 00:26:20,480 -->261 00:26:14,540 -->260 00:26:08,360 -->259 00:26:05,930 -->258 00:26:01,610 -->257 00:25:55,970 -->256 00:25:51,350 -->255 00:25:45,440 -->254 00:25:43,970 -->253 00:25:38,810 -->252 00:25:32,540 -->251 00:25:26,180 -->250 00:25:20,540 -->249 00:25:13,700 -->248 00:25:08,030 -->247 00:25:01,400 -->246 00:24:55,040 -->245 00:24:47,720 -->244 00:24:38,480 -->243 00:24:28,500 -->242 00:24:16,930 -->241 00:24:11,480 -->240 00:24:06,120 -->239 00:24:01,100 -->238 00:23:53,300 -->237 00:23:45,740 -->236 00:23:41,230 -->235 00:23:36,820 -->234 00:23:30,260 -->233 00:23:24,920 -->232 00:23:18,980 -->231 00:23:15,970 -->230 00:23:09,590 -->229 00:23:06,980 -->228 00:23:01,280 -->227 00:22:54,530 -->226 00:22:48,180 -->225 00:22:41,870 -->224 00:22:36,630 -->223 00:22:32,440 -->222 00:22:23,700 -->221 00:22:15,240 -->220 00:22:10,380 -->219 00:22:04,020 -->218 00:21:59,340 -->217 00:21:53,760 -->216 00:21:49,410 -->215 00:21:43,350 -->214 00:21:39,690 -->213 00:21:30,720 -->212 00:21:29,520 -->211 00:21:19,200 -->210 00:21:11,400 -->209 00:21:06,090 -->208 00:20:58,950 -->207 00:20:48,390 -->206 00:20:45,090 -->205 00:20:40,110 -->204 00:20:36,570 -->203 00:20:29,280 -->202 00:20:19,320 -->201 00:20:15,900 -->200 00:20:05,490 -->199 00:20:01,590 -->198 00:19:56,520 -->197 00:19:52,500 -->196 00:19:46,290 -->195 00:19:41,040 -->194 00:19:35,040 -->193 00:19:25,920 -->192 00:19:15,840 -->191 00:19:08,910 -->190 00:19:05,700 -->189 00:18:58,470 -->188 00:18:54,660 -->187 00:18:44,800 -->186 00:18:40,710 -->185 00:18:34,290 -->184 00:18:30,390 -->183 00:18:20,430 -->182 00:18:12,660 -->181 00:18:05,350 -->180 00:18:01,530 -->179 00:17:54,770 -->178 00:17:43,870 -->177 00:17:37,640 -->176 00:17:32,600 -->175 00:17:27,650 -->174 00:17:19,220 -->173 00:17:12,680 -->172 00:17:10,100 -->171 00:17:03,710 -->170 00:16:52,370 -->169 00:16:48,560 -->168 00:16:44,630 -->167 00:16:39,560 -->166 00:16:33,710 -->165 00:16:29,120 -->164 00:16:23,520 -->163 00:16:18,860 -->162 00:16:13,550 -->161 00:16:04,400 -->160 00:15:57,800 -->159 00:15:50,360 -->158 00:15:41,870 -->157 00:15:39,590 -->156 00:15:34,910 -->155 00:15:25,970 -->154 00:15:24,920 -->153 00:15:20,640 -->152 00:15:11,750 -->151 00:15:06,500 -->150 00:15:00,410 -->149 00:14:54,530 -->148 00:14:48,770 -->147 00:14:43,220 -->146 00:14:39,320 -->145 00:14:33,440 -->144 00:14:28,760 -->143 00:14:21,740 -->142 00:14:16,590 -->141 00:14:08,840 -->140 00:14:05,510 -->139 00:14:01,220 -->138 00:13:56,690 -->137 00:13:51,380 -->136 00:13:47,540 -->135 00:13:42,320 -->134 00:13:37,310 -->133 00:13:30,500 -->132 00:13:23,850 -->131 00:13:18,690 -->130 00:13:10,610 -->129 00:13:09,260 -->128 00:12:59,450 -->127 00:12:55,100 -->126 00:12:49,300 -->125 00:12:44,800 -->124 00:12:36,520 -->123 00:12:30,710 -->122 00:12:22,750 -->121 00:12:20,410 -->120 00:12:15,100 -->119 00:12:10,240 -->118 00:12:04,270 -->117 00:11:58,870 -->116 00:11:52,930 -->115 00:11:47,000 -->114 00:11:41,000 -->113 00:11:38,210 -->112 00:11:32,960 -->111 00:11:29,540 -->110 00:11:23,180 -->109 00:11:18,680 -->108 00:11:16,220 -->107 00:11:09,590 -->106 00:11:01,250 -->105 00:10:55,670 -->104 00:10:51,840 -->103 00:10:40,220 -->102 00:10:36,860 -->101 00:10:31,700 -->100 00:10:27,050 -->99 00:10:23,360 -->98 00:10:19,580 -->97 00:10:15,920 -->96 00:10:12,260 -->95 00:10:06,110 -->94 00:10:01,160 -->93 00:09:54,680 -->92 00:09:46,850 -->91 00:09:38,570 -->90 00:09:31,550 -->89 00:09:22,010 -->88 00:09:17,750 -->87 00:09:09,050 -->86 00:09:03,590 -->85 00:08:56,840 -->84 00:08:49,100 -->83 00:08:44,930 -->82 00:08:40,280 -->81 00:08:36,800 -->80 00:08:31,250 -->79 00:08:23,480 -->78 00:08:16,850 -->77 00:08:14,060 -->76 00:08:05,120 -->75 00:07:55,940 -->74 00:07:51,860 -->73 00:07:46,100 -->72 00:07:39,410 -->71 00:07:30,950 -->70 00:07:22,550 -->69 00:07:18,080 -->68 00:07:09,230 -->67 00:06:57,350 -->66 00:06:47,600 -->65 00:06:38,750 -->64 00:06:36,110 -->63 00:06:29,780 -->62 00:06:23,990 -->61 00:06:16,250 -->60 00:06:09,850 -->59 00:06:06,400 -->58 00:06:03,580 -->57 00:05:54,340 -->56 00:05:48,850 -->55 00:05:42,400 -->54 00:05:36,850 -->53 00:05:31,510 -->52 00:05:24,610 -->51 00:05:19,630 -->50 00:05:15,130 -->49 00:05:10,660 -->48 00:05:06,740 -->47 00:05:01,640 -->46 00:04:54,050 -->45 00:04:50,270 -->44 00:04:41,340 -->43 00:04:39,860 -->42 00:04:33,500 -->41 00:04:29,750 -->40 00:04:25,640 -->39 00:04:20,090 -->38 00:04:16,130 -->37 00:04:12,080 -->36 00:04:05,360 -->35 00:04:01,760 -->34 00:03:55,700 -->33 00:03:46,820 -->32 00:03:42,620 -->31 00:03:34,940 -->30 00:03:26,870 -->29 00:03:21,350 -->28 00:03:13,820 -->27 00:03:05,060 -->26 00:02:58,430 -->25 00:02:50,120 -->24 00:02:43,490 -->23 00:02:41,090 -->22 00:02:35,300 -->21 00:02:26,960 -->20 00:02:23,660 -->19 00:02:16,610 -->18 00:02:07,040 -->17 00:01:58,880 -->16 00:01:50,900 -->15 00:01:44,690 -->14 00:01:40,790 -->13 00:01:31,010 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks Dr. Katie Finning, who recently made the transition from a postdoc to a research role outside of academia.  In the podcast Kaite mentions the Civil Service Job site and the Glassdoor repository of interview questions. Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript 1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,730 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter College. 2 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:32,340 Hi, it's Kelly Preece and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, continuing our series on getting jobs during covid. 3 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:35,190 I'm really excited to be talking to Dr Katie Finning. 4 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:44,220 So Katie was up until recently a postdoc at the University of Exeter and has during the pandemic made the transition into a non-academic role. 5 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:49,680 So are you happy to introduce yourself? Sure. So I'm Katie Finning. 6 00:00:49,680 --> 00:01:01,540 I am. I'm currently working as a senior researcher at the Office for National Statistics, so I was in academia for about nine years before I left. 7 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,790 I'm originally joined not long after I finished my undergraduate degree, I took a job as a research assistant to university. 8 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:18,810 So I was working on a clinical trial of a behavioural therapy for adults with depression. 9 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:23,130 And I kind of worked on that project from start to finish when I joined. 10 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:27,070 And we were still kind of gaining all of our ethical approvals. 11 00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:33,870 And I stayed working in that job right up until the end where we published the results of the study. 12 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:43,530 So that was a really great experience because I kind of saw the whole research lifecycle from start to finish. 13 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:48,780 And in that job, my main job for most of that time was data collection and recruitment. 14 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:56,910 So that was great. I spent most of my job kind of going out and meeting people and interviewing them and talking to them about their experiences, 15 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:02,160 which was was a really interesting and fun job. And then I did my PhD. 16 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,510 I moved over to child mental health, so I was still at Exeter university. 17 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:13,230 So I'd always been kind of interested in mental health from a research perspective, but particularly child mental health. 18 00:02:13,230 --> 00:02:18,910 And a PhD opportunity came up just as my contract on that clinical trial was coming to an end. 19 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:27,150 So it was kind of perfect timing. It was in a team I was really keen to kind of make my way into and the topic was really interesting. 20 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:35,700 So it was advertised as a job rather than me kind of submitting my own PhD proposal. 21 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:39,090 And my PhD was kind of epidemiological. 22 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:51,150 So it looked at kind of patterns and trends in data, looking at the association between anxiety and depression in young people and school absenteeism. 23 00:02:51,150 --> 00:03:00,690 And so I used a variety of different research methods during my PhD, did a bit of systematic review, some quantitative work, some qualitative work. 24 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:02,520 So it was a really kind of nice, 25 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:10,410 well-rounded project that gave me experience and methods that I hadn't experienced when I was working as a research assistant. 26 00:03:10,410 --> 00:03:16,530 And I think it kind of the whole time that I was in academia, there were things I loved. 27 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:21,000 I loved working on research. I loved working with data. 28 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,140 And but I always kind of questioned whether academia was the right place for me. 29 00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:30,210 And the only reason really that I think I stayed for so long was just because the opportunities were there. 30 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:38,880 And so I had no real reason to leave. I had it funded post for about five years, and then I had a great PhD opportunity for three years. 31 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:48,930 And then I did a couple of years of postdoc work as well. And it was, to be honest, by complete luck that I was contacted about my job now. 32 00:03:48,930 --> 00:03:55,740 So towards the end of my PhD, I was starting to get a little bit anxious about kind of what was going to come next, 33 00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:02,670 whether I'd be able to get any funding for postdoc work. And I started quite seriously looking at jobs outside of academia. 34 00:04:02,670 --> 00:04:11,520 But there was never really anything that I saw that I felt was a good enough match for my skills and for what I was interested in. 35 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,610 And and so I signed up for kind of hundreds of job alerts every week. 36 00:04:15,610 --> 00:04:20,100 I get all these alerts about various different jobs and I'd scroll through them and think, 37 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:24,480 oh, I just don't I just don't think there are any jobs outside of academia for me. 38 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,010 And kind of felt a little bit hopeless at that point because I was worried about my job security in academia, 39 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:34,110 but also didn't feel like there was anything outside of academia for me. 40 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:38,280 And so then I applied for some postdoc funding and was awarded postdoc funding. 41 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:43,920 It was about a year and a half of funding. So I really stopped looking for alternative jobs. 42 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,750 And then by complete coincidence, 43 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:54,990 I was contacted by someone at the Office for National Statistics on LinkedIn about a job that they had and kind of encouraging me to apply. 44 00:04:54,990 --> 00:05:00,750 And I looked at this job description and I remember saying to my husband, 45 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:04,710 I feel like this job's got my name on it and it just kind of ticked every box. 46 00:05:04,710 --> 00:05:08,950 It was a research role. It was a permanent job, which was really important. 47 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:15,010 For me, it was a homeworking contract, which this was all happening during the pandemic, 48 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:21,760 and I really benefited from homeworking, so I was quite eager to apply for jobs and that would be permanently home based. 49 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,900 And yes, that's kind of how I got to where I am now. One thing led to another. 50 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:31,510 I thought I'll just put in an application and see what happens. But I've got this postdoc funding, so it's no big deal if I don't get it. 51 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:37,840 Let's just see what happens. And I had an interview, was offered the job. 52 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:42,610 And so here I am. I've been in this job for about three and a half months now. 53 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:50,830 Thank you so much for that. I think just a story that will really resonate with so many of our listeners about the 54 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:54,940 the getting towards the end of the research degree in that kind of anxiety where, 55 00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:01,120 you know, where the hell am I going next? Is academia right for me? 56 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:09,130 I can't see anything outside of it that really feels like it speaks to my interest or my knowledge or my skills. 57 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:16,020 And I think it's really important just to. Acknowledge how normal that feeling is. 58 00:06:16,020 --> 00:06:21,020 Yeah, and and I think as well, we're not very good in academia about talking about that. 59 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:27,170 So I always kind of felt like I wasn't I wasn't sure if academia was right for me, 60 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:32,220 but no one ever really talked about, well, if not academia than what 61 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:39,500 And I always kind of felt like everybody else in academia was so committed and so sure that this was where they wanted their careers to be. 62 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,900 And actually now, on reflection, I don't know that that's true. 63 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:48,030 I think that we just a lot of people have those doubts, but it's for whatever reason, it's not really talked about. 64 00:06:48,030 --> 00:06:54,320 And the trouble with that is that it means that it is difficult to know what else there is. 65 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:03,260 And so I think it's really great that you do this podcast. And I think that needs to be more resources like this for, you know, pre docs, 66 00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:09,050 PhD students, postdocs, just to kind of get an understanding of what else is out there. 67 00:07:09,050 --> 00:07:16,940 Because I the thought of leaving academia was really quite scary for me because I felt like nobody was talking about what happens when you leave. 68 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:25,070 You know if I hate it. Can I come back? Will I be seen as kind of an outsider or a traitor for leaving? 69 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:30,890 And I found that really unsettling because I felt like I was the only the only one who. 70 00:07:30,890 --> 00:07:38,150 Wasn't completely sure that I wanted to stay on this career path and kind of aspire to become a professor, 71 00:07:38,150 --> 00:07:42,380 so I think it's really great that we're having this conversation and that you're kind of 72 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:47,870 pushing forward these sorts of topics and conversations because I think they need to be had. 73 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:51,050 They do. And I think, you know, you said it yourself. 74 00:07:51,050 --> 00:08:00,830 There's a real taboo around talking about even thinking is academia right for academia right for me, let alone leaving. 75 00:08:00,830 --> 00:08:08,270 Yeah. And and there's all sorts of really, really problematic narratives around it as well. 76 00:08:08,270 --> 00:08:15,350 You know, a lot of people have this misconception, but, you know, it's perpetuated that, 77 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:20,300 you know, if you if you decide not to be an academic, you've in some sense failed. 78 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:26,120 Failed. Yeah. And and it's really difficult to to push past that. 79 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,590 Yeah. Especially when the narrative is so pervasive. It is. 80 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:35,760 And I felt as well because I wasn't sure, you know, I really enjoyed academia in lots of ways. 81 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:43,340 So it wasn't like I absolutely hated it and I knew I wanted out. It was like, OK, I quite like this, but there's also some stuff I'm not sure about. 82 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:51,520 And and what I worried about was if I tell anyone that I'm thinking about jobs outside of academia. 83 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,010 People might not consider me for jobs inside academia, and so I never told anybody, 84 00:08:57,010 --> 00:09:02,560 I never wanted to speak to my supervisors or those that I worked with because I thought, 85 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:08,530 well, if a job comes up, they might think, well, she's not very committed, so let's not offer it to her. 86 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:14,620 And so there was kind of this difficult dynamic where I felt like I needed to be speaking about what other options there were, 87 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:21,800 but also didn't want to look like I wasn't committed enough to be able to do a good job if I did decide to stay. 88 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,870 Yeah, exactly, and it's something I've heard so much over the past few years, at Exeter 89 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:35,210 is that is a real fear of if I express that I might not be interested in staying in academia, what might the consequences be? 90 00:09:35,210 --> 00:09:36,950 How might that limit my opportunities? 91 00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:44,690 And like you say, if I go out and I decide actually I don't like it and I want to come back, you know, is that going to damage my chances? 92 00:09:44,690 --> 00:09:47,550 So I wanted to pick up on a couple of things. 93 00:09:47,550 --> 00:09:55,890 So, you know, you said not knowing what was out there, you signed up to loads of  job alerts, but nothing was coming up that really spoke to you. 94 00:09:55,890 --> 00:10:00,140 Can you talk a little bit about that and about the kind of things were coming up? 95 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:04,970 And what what what about the most resonating with you? 96 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:09,680 I found it very difficult, a lot of the jobs that were coming up. 97 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,190 So I think I signed up for job alerts that were kind of, you know, based on keywords. 98 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:21,020 So it was like research, research, data analysis, those kinds of things. 99 00:10:21,020 --> 00:10:25,880 But there was very little in the way of kind of well-rounded research. 100 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,280 So there were tons and tons of kind of data scientist, data, analyst type roles. 101 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:38,210 And as much as I really enjoy working with data and it was one of the things during my Ph.D. that I particularly enjoyed, 102 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:43,340 I I'm still I'm not a data scientist. Right. And that's quite a specific set of skills. 103 00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:47,420 And so a lot of these jobs were coming up where I was thinking, well, that sounds really interesting, 104 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:51,360 but I don't I don't think I've quite got the skill set in order to do that. 105 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:59,600 And there was very little that seemed to be out there that was kind of like a well rounded researcher role that might involve, 106 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:05,870 you know, a bit of research design, a bit of data collection, a bit of analysis, a bit of dissemination. 107 00:11:05,870 --> 00:11:12,440 There was just nothing really coming up. But I tell you what I saw, I think I searched on, you know, all the usual places, 108 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:20,000 Glassdoor indeed, and LinkedIn, and set up loads of job alerts through those kinds of places. 109 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:27,020 But the one thing I didn't do was look at civil service and I honestly never even crossed my mind. 110 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:30,020 I just never, ever. And that's why I think these kinds of conversations are so important, 111 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:35,820 because I didn't really even think about there being research posts in the civil service. 112 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:40,510 There are tons of research jobs in the civil service, not just ONS there. 113 00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:43,860 But I mean, there are loads of jobs being advertised at ONS 114 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,990 But, you know, departments, Education Department of Health and Social Care, Department for Transport, 115 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:54,080 depending what your topic area or area of interest is, there are loads of research jobs in the civil service. 116 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:01,070 And I had absolutely no idea. Yeah, and I, I think it's it's so common. 117 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:05,330 It's you know, if you're interested in an academic career, I mean, 118 00:12:05,330 --> 00:12:11,720 I'm not saying it's easy because it's highly competitive, but you're surrounded by the people with the information. 119 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:20,660 You're surrounded by the gatekeepers. Well, and, you know, you can you see very clearly in front of you what the options are. 120 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:32,120 Yeah. Outside it. You know, it's it's such a big sort of open ended market of possibilities. 121 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,550 And knowing where you might fit within that is really difficult. 122 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:42,390 So. In thinking about what kind of didn't resonate with you. 123 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:46,700 About those roles, what was it about this role that you're now in? 124 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:50,710 that did speak to you. What is it that made you go at that? 125 00:12:50,710 --> 00:13:00,180 That sounds like it might be for me. It was the fact that the job description was so the job title was senior research officer, 126 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:05,400 but the job description mentioned the whole life cycle of research. 127 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,880 So it said something along the lines of, you know, roles might include. 128 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:20,250 And it was everything from designing research, working with stakeholders, you know, managing a team of researchers, data analysis, dissemination. 129 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:27,030 It was basically a postdoc researcher, but working for government. 130 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:28,800 And I thought, well, that's exactly what I want. 131 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:37,040 I don't want to be stuck into, you know, being a specialist data scientist that's a bit outside the realms of what I'm capable of. 132 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:43,770 It's it's a bit of everything and everything that I've learnt along the last nine years of being academia. 133 00:13:43,770 --> 00:13:48,240 I've done all of that. So I literally looked at the job description and I thought, well, I can do that. 134 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:55,230 I can do that. I can do that. There was nothing in it that made me go that's a bit outside of what I can really do. 135 00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:58,560 And it just felt like it fit 136 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:07,380 My skills and probably the skill set of a lot of kind of early postdoc researchers, early career researchers, perfectly. 137 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:16,200 But it had the benefit of being a permanent job, which I hadn't had, you know, at the age of thirty two, I'd never had a permanent job. 138 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,070 And that was I felt like it was the time of my life where I was just a bit tired 139 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:23,580 of being on fixed term contracts and always having to worry about what came next. 140 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:34,620 And so to have a kind of well-rounded research job that was working from home and that was permanent was just I mean, it was a no brainer. 141 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:38,100 Yeah. And I think, you know, we don't talk again. 142 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:45,870 We don't talk enough about or we talk a lot about precarity in academia, but we don't talk enough about actually why that might be a reason to leave. 143 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:52,410 Yeah. Yep, that's right. It's it's almost something that you just kind of expected to put up with. 144 00:14:52,410 --> 00:15:01,270 And it's like, well, that's just how it is, you know, and and all of the kind of more senior academics have been through that process as well. 145 00:15:01,270 --> 00:15:05,880 So all you see is, you know, even kind of the role models and the people that you aspire to, 146 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,300 to be like eventually still have to go through that process. 147 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:15,840 So it's kind of just like, well, that's if you want to be in academia, that is just what you have to put up with. 148 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,500 And I think in you know, in the time of covid as well, I felt kind of. 149 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:24,040 Like, it was extra precarious and I thought, 150 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:30,260 I don't know what the landscape is going to be like over the next couple of years, and that was really scary. 151 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:36,200 It is, and lots of people, for various reasons, it can be, you know, 152 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:43,790 the fact that you just don't have the kind of life circumstances where you can work precariously. 153 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:49,440 It can be, you know, that you are incredibly tied geographically for various reasons 154 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,100 You know, there's lots of different reasons why. 155 00:15:53,100 --> 00:16:01,090 That kind of that kind of system doesn't really work for people, and therefore it can be a reason to leave academia, 156 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:08,010 but that doesn't mean leaving behind research and the things that you're passionate about in terms of your subject area, 157 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:12,250 but also in terms of your skills. 158 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:13,500 Yeah, exactly. 159 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:27,620 And I think one of the things I really was quite nervous about leaving and from the point where I accepted the job to the point where I left, I. 160 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:36,650 Was anticipating that I was going to regret leaving from day one and I was going to wonder what I'd done and I don't know, 161 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:40,640 I sort of feel like I'd maybe put academia up on a bit of a pedestal where I thought, 162 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,560 you know, this is the best thing in the world and I'm not going to have that anymore. 163 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:54,950 And one of the things that I particularly worried about so one of the things I love about academia is working with, 164 00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:59,840 like some of the brightest minds in the world. Right. Like, no exaggeration. 165 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:08,750 And you get to sit in on conversations and be involved in conversations or it's like, you know, groundbreaking research, really smart people. 166 00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:11,330 And I just love that I found it really exciting. 167 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:21,260 And I thought if I leave academia, I'm going to lose that, that actually there were tons of really bright people at ONS and there were tons of ex academics. 168 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:25,100 I went as I didn't lose that at all. 169 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:30,650 You know that there are things and we can talk about that, you know, there are things that I miss and things that I lost. 170 00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:35,270 But working with bright people definitely wasn't one of them. 171 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:43,730 And I can honestly say that I haven't looked back for a second and I haven't had once I left, 172 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:50,870 it was kind of the couple of months up to leaving that were horrible because I was so worried about whether I was going to regret it. 173 00:17:50,870 --> 00:18:00,350 As soon as I started my new job, I. I just knew I'd made the right decision and even in those first couple of months and starting a new job, 174 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:06,110 which is always a bit unsettling and especially, you know, it was a big change going to civil service from academia. 175 00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:12,500 It's in some respects, it's totally different. And and there were moments where I felt quite unsettled. 176 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:19,400 Even now, you know, three and a half months down the line, I still have moments of feeling a bit unsettled, but never for a second. 177 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:27,580 I thought I wish I hadn't left. There's something really for me, this is something really to do with identity, 178 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:32,680 and I experienced it myself when I stopped being an academic and I moved into professional services. 179 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:43,630 I really felt like I was going to be leaving a huge part of myself behind and that I you know, I felt like it was going to be gut wrenching. 180 00:18:43,630 --> 00:18:48,390 Yes. To leave my leave my research topic. And I, 181 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:54,820 I to the extent that I thought I would probably carry on with some of my research 182 00:18:54,820 --> 00:19:00,370 and it was only I've been in this job six years so about two years ago, 183 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:05,620 that I finally had an exodus of books and research materials. 184 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:10,030 When I realised it's been four years, it's probably not going to happen. 185 00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:17,560 Yeah. And because actually, you know, that it was so tied to my sense of identity that I thought it was going to be this massive, 186 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,390 massive thing to stop doing it and to leave and to forge a different path. 187 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:27,370 And, you know, like you, when I started it, I thought, oh, actually, this this feels right. 188 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:34,030 It feels like the right environment for me. It feels like doing the right thing. And I'm not looked at once and I've never missed it. 189 00:19:34,030 --> 00:19:43,660 Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think I can really relate to that kind of sense of your identity being wrapped up in academia, 190 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:52,120 because in academic research it's all about you, like it's about you, your research interests, your proposals. 191 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:58,660 You know, it's so centred on you that that it does become part of your identity. 192 00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:07,630 And and I think it feels like it probably felt like one of the biggest life decisions I've ever made and probably still does to leave. 193 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:15,550 It felt like this huge, huge decision, and especially because I'd just been awarded some postdoc funding. 194 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:21,550 So I was like, I'm I'm literally like I'm walking away from a really good opportunity. 195 00:20:21,550 --> 00:20:26,410 And I guess as well, you know, it's always talked about how competitive research funding is. 196 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:29,980 And, you know, if you've been awarded something, it's like, wow, that's amazing. Well done. 197 00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:40,840 You should be so pleased that like to walk away felt really difficult and almost like I was letting people down or letting myself down somehow. 198 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,060 But yeah, it's funny how pretty much as soon as I did that, 199 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:51,250 I kind of I saw things from a slightly different perspective and I realised how the culture 200 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:57,130 of academia kind of perpetuates that way of thinking where it's all focussed on you. 201 00:20:57,130 --> 00:21:02,860 You're not letting anybody down if you decide to leave, like you're not letting anybody down, you're just not. 202 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:08,740 And you know what? Your self identity will change and evolve, OK? 203 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:14,320 It won't be wrapped up in, you know, this really kind of specific area of speciality that you've developed. 204 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:22,540 But you'll have a new identity and you'll still have many of the aspects of your old identity, but it will just evolve and change. 205 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:29,430 But that's just part of life, right? We change anyway. So nothing to fear. 206 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:33,870 Yeah, I think that I think that's so, so important to acknowledge, 207 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:40,080 and it was going to be one of my key questions for you was kind of what happens when you when you leave and what does that feel like? 208 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:46,860 Because it is it's a huge source of anxiety for people because it feels like a complete unknown. 209 00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:51,450 And like you say, we don't talk about it, you know, so we fear it. 210 00:21:51,450 --> 00:22:03,900 That's right. And and, yeah, you know, academia, it's not just a job when you're in academic research, it is more than that it is wrapped up in your identity. 211 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:11,040 So it's a big deal. But, you know, and I'm sure there are people who leave and find that transition really difficult. 212 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,210 But for me, it wasn't difficult at all. 213 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:24,870 And actually, you know, I've still got some old projects from my academic career kind of rolling on. 214 00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:32,490 And honestly, if anything, I've had moments of thinking, God, I just want to get those things done so that I can put it behind me and move on. 215 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:41,100 And it's it's funny how quickly my loyalty has changed. 216 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,780 And I felt like actually that was something from the past. 217 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:50,430 And I'm ready to just move on and, you know, learn it, learn a new job and develop a new life. 218 00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:59,040 And and for my job to not be such a strong part of my identity anymore, I actually find that really refreshing. 219 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:06,060 I did too. there's quite a burden. I think at the time I didn't realise because I thought it was cool. 220 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:11,700 But, you know, my research was so important and then it was all wrapped up in me and my self identity. 221 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:17,820 And and so I didn't realise it until I left. But actually, I think for me that felt like like a bit of a burden. 222 00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:28,190 And it's it's nice to feel like, although what I'm doing now is still really important and it's impactful, it's I can see it more as just a job. 223 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:32,040 And I think I really appreciate that. Yeah. 224 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:39,420 And I, I thought exactly the same about, you know, actually I don't think I necessarily felt it was a burden at the time. 225 00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:45,150 But when I realised the weight had been lifted. Yeah. I realised realise what a burden it was. 226 00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:50,520 But at the same time I always say, you know, it's not like that for everybody. 227 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:57,810 It's it doesn't feel like it's not a burden for everybody. And, you know, that's an important thing to recognise, too. 228 00:23:57,810 --> 00:24:01,950 But if it is for you, then maybe this is it's not the environment. 229 00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:08,340 Yeah. And if your passion is research, there's plenty of things that you can go and do. 230 00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:13,580 So the thing that I wanted to talk about next was the application process for your job. 231 00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:20,790 at ONS cause again, it's something that feels in academia we sort of know a bit about if we're in the system, 232 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:26,340 about how job adverts and applications and interviews and how all of those processes go. 233 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:34,530 But it feels like a really huge unknown when we're talking about public service or industry, particularly the civil service. 234 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:40,500 So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what the application involved and what the interview process involved. 235 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:51,600 Yeah, so it was a very different experience to jobs that I had applied for in academia, and the application form was fine. 236 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,310 I actually um because like I said, I hadn't been looking out for civil service jobs. 237 00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:00,180 So I hadn't spotted this job until someone messaged me on LinkedIn. 238 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:02,820 And I didn't get the message until the day before the closing day. 239 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:08,580 So I literally had like one evening and a bit of the next day to put my application together. 240 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:18,060 So it was very rushed and I think it involved a CV and a description of my previous work experience. 241 00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:24,150 And then I had to do a statement. So I think it was seven hundred and fifty words. 242 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:28,080 And I had to discuss a piece of work, 243 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:34,980 that I had led or a piece of research that I had led and there were specific criteria about what I needed to include. 244 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:38,870 So it was how I had led a team, what the outcome was, 245 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:44,670 and there were some other things that were specified in there that was pretty easy, to be completely honest. 246 00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:51,780 If you've got kind of post PhD level, you'll be able to talk about a piece of work that you've led. 247 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:55,080 So that was more just kind of, you know, like a lot of job applications. 248 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:01,710 It's a bit tedious having to put that together and because I didn't have much time to do it, but that was fine. 249 00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:11,130 And then I was contacted fairly soon afterwards inviting me to interview. 250 00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:17,640 And then I had to log on to Civil Service Jobs website. 251 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,160 So it's worth mentioning for anyone listening to this, 252 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,920 if you think you might be interested in a research job in civil service, they're all advertised by a civil service. 253 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,940 Jobs, I think it's .co.uk 254 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:37,930 So all civil service kind of government organisations will all be posted on there and the whole application process is managed on there as well. 255 00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:41,200 And so then I had to book myself an interview date 256 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,840 So basically it's all done on an automated system and you got a choice of different dates and then you select one. 257 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:58,540 The interview itself was hard. It was about an hour and a half long and it was broken down into three parts. 258 00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,410 The first part was a presentation. I think it was only a five minute presentation. 259 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:07,450 And they sent me information about what I had to present on about a week before. 260 00:27:07,450 --> 00:27:16,720 And basically by the content of it was that they gave me a general topic area with a list of specific research questions. 261 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,840 And I had to kind of a bit of a brief that some government department wanted this research and what they wanted it for. 262 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,050 I had to pick a couple of the research questions to focus on, and then I had to design a study to address those questions. 263 00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:35,970 So the first part of my interview was presenting that. And then the panel asked me a bunch of questions about it. 264 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:41,230 You know, why did you select those questions? Why did you pick this design? 265 00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:46,570 How could you do it differently? What the strengths and weaknesses. 266 00:27:46,570 --> 00:27:57,890 And then that was followed up with quite specific I think they call them research skills questions. 267 00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:03,980 If you had just come out of your undergraduate degree, particularly in something like psychology, 268 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,510 which was what my degree was, it would probably be relatively easy. 269 00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:18,560 But if you're a few years or more, as in my case, kind of post undergrad, it was things like, you know, what is a normal distribution? 270 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:28,040 How would you explain a P value to a lay audience and things like that, which, you know, if you work with day to kind of day to day, you know, 271 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:35,780 those things, but actually being able to provide like a really neat definition for it in a high stress interview situation was really, 272 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:39,740 really difficult. That's really tough. Yeah, it was hard. 273 00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:42,260 And there was about 20 minutes of those kinds of questions. 274 00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:50,750 But I was lucky that I had before my interview, I'd gone on to the Glassdoor website and I looked up. 275 00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:57,380 So on there this is a very big tip to anyone listening to this who's thinking of applying for other jobs. 276 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:01,280 And there's a there's a tab on Glassdoor for interviews. 277 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,090 So if you go to whatever the organisation is they search for, say, 278 00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:12,890 I want to go to the interviews tab and there will be people who have posted about their experiences of having an interview at the organisation, 279 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:20,810 and it includes interview questions. And so I had seen on that, I think it was only, I don't know, a few days before my interview, 280 00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:24,560 my husband actually said, well, have you had a look on Glassdoor? And I didn't know this was a thing. 281 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,080 So we stood and we stood there together. I was kind of over his shoulder. He was on his computer pull up these interviews. 282 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,840 And I saw a few for the specific kind of job role that I had advertised for. 283 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,690 And it said on there, you know, people were saying I was asked these kind of very specific research questions, 284 00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:47,480 statistics type questions with some examples of the kinds of questions that I remember standing there and saying to a husband, 285 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,870 oh, my God, there is no way I'm going to be able to do that. 286 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:56,360 And so I spent the next three days, like revising all my undergraduate stats and research methods. 287 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:04,040 If I hadn't have done that, I think that interview process would have been a lot more stressful than it was and would have been really287 00:29:56,360 -->286 00:29:50,870 -->285 00:29:47,480 -->284 00:29:41,690 -->283 00:29:35,840 -->282 00:29:30,080 -->281 00:29:24,560 -->280 00:29:20,810 -->279 00:29:12,890 -->278 00:29:05,090 -->277 00:29:01,280 -->276 00:28:57,380 -->275 00:28:50,750 -->274 00:28:42,260 -->273 00:28:39,740 -->272 00:28:35,780 -->271 00:28:28,040 -->270 00:28:18,560 -->269 00:28:08,510 -->268 00:28:03,980 -->267 00:27:57,890 -->266 00:27:46,570 -->265 00:27:41,230 -->264 00:27:35,970 -->263 00:27:29,050 -->262 00:27:22,840 -->261 00:27:16,720 -->260 00:27:07,450 -->259 00:27:02,410 -->258 00:26:58,540 -->257 00:26:46,840 -->256 00:26:41,200 -->255 00:26:37,930 -->254 00:26:27,940 -->253 00:26:25,920 -->252 00:26:20,160 -->251 00:26:17,640 -->250 00:26:11,130 -->249 00:26:01,710 -->248 00:25:55,080 -->247 00:25:51,780 -->246 00:25:44,670 -->245 00:25:38,870 -->244 00:25:34,980 -->243 00:25:28,080 -->242 00:25:24,150 -->241 00:25:18,060 -->240 00:25:08,580 -->239 00:25:02,820 -->238 00:25:00,180 -->237 00:24:56,310 -->236 00:24:51,600 -->235 00:24:40,500 -->234 00:24:34,530 -->233 00:24:26,340 -->232 00:24:20,790 -->231 00:24:13,580 -->230 00:24:08,340 -->229 00:24:01,950 -->228 00:23:57,810 -->227 00:23:50,520 -->226 00:23:45,150 -->225 00:23:39,420 -->224 00:23:32,040 -->223 00:23:28,190 -->222 00:23:17,820 -->221 00:23:11,700 -->220 00:23:06,060 -->219 00:22:59,040 -->218 00:22:50,430 -->217 00:22:44,780 -->216 00:22:41,100 -->215 00:22:32,490 -->214 00:22:24,870 -->213 00:22:15,210 -->212 00:22:11,040 -->211 00:22:03,900 -->210 00:21:51,450 -->209 00:21:46,860 -->208 00:21:40,080 -->207 00:21:33,870 -->206 00:21:29,430 -->205 00:21:22,540 -->204 00:21:14,320 -->203 00:21:08,740 -->202 00:21:02,860 -->201 00:20:57,130 -->200 00:20:51,250 -->199 00:20:46,060 -->198 00:20:40,840 -->197 00:20:29,980 -->196 00:20:26,410 -->195 00:20:21,550 -->194 00:20:15,550 -->193 00:20:07,630 -->192 00:19:58,660 -->191 00:19:52,120 -->190 00:19:43,660 -->189 00:19:34,030 -->188 00:19:27,370 -->187 00:19:22,390 -->186 00:19:17,560 -->185 00:19:10,030 -->184 00:19:05,620 -->183 00:19:00,370 -->182 00:18:54,820 -->181 00:18:48,390 -->180 00:18:43,630 -->179 00:18:32,680 -->178 00:18:27,580 -->177 00:18:19,400 -->176 00:18:12,500 -->175 00:18:06,110 -->174 00:18:00,350 -->173 00:17:50,870 -->172 00:17:43,730 -->171 00:17:35,270 -->170 00:17:30,650 -->169 00:17:25,100 -->168 00:17:21,260 -->167 00:17:11,330 -->166 00:17:08,750 -->165 00:16:59,840 -->164 00:16:54,950 -->163 00:16:45,560 -->162 00:16:40,640 -->161 00:16:36,650 -->160 00:16:27,620 -->159 00:16:13,500 -->158 00:16:12,250 -->157 00:16:08,010 -->156 00:16:01,090 -->155 00:15:53,100 -->154 00:15:49,440 -->153 00:15:43,790 -->152 00:15:36,200 -->151 00:15:30,260 -->150 00:15:24,040 -->149 00:15:21,500 -->148 00:15:15,840 -->147 00:15:09,300 -->146 00:15:05,880 -->145 00:15:01,270 -->144 00:14:52,410 -->143 00:14:45,870 -->142 00:14:38,100 -->141 00:14:34,620 -->140 00:14:23,580 -->139 00:14:20,070 -->138 00:14:16,200 -->137 00:14:07,380 -->136 00:13:58,560 -->135 00:13:55,230 -->134 00:13:48,240 -->133 00:13:43,770 -->132 00:13:37,040 -->131 00:13:28,800 -->130 00:13:27,030 -->129 00:13:20,250 -->128 00:13:08,880 -->127 00:13:05,400 -->126 00:13:00,180 -->125 00:12:50,710 -->124 00:12:46,700 -->123 00:12:42,390 -->122 00:12:37,550 -->121 00:12:32,120 -->120 00:12:20,660 -->119 00:12:11,720 -->118 00:12:05,330 -->117 00:12:01,070 -->116 00:11:54,080 -->115 00:11:47,990 -->114 00:11:43,860 -->113 00:11:40,510 -->112 00:11:35,820 -->111 00:11:30,020 -->110 00:11:27,020 -->109 00:11:20,000 -->108 00:11:12,440 -->107 00:11:05,870 -->106 00:10:59,600 -->105 00:10:51,360 -->104 00:10:47,420 -->103 00:10:43,340 -->102 00:10:38,210 -->101 00:10:31,280 -->100 00:10:25,880 -->99 00:10:21,020 -->98 00:10:13,190 -->97 00:10:09,680 -->96 00:10:04,970 -->95 00:10:00,140 -->94 00:09:55,890 -->93 00:09:47,550 -->92 00:09:44,690 -->91 00:09:36,950 -->90 00:09:35,210 -->89 00:09:26,870 -->88 00:09:21,800 -->87 00:09:14,620 -->86 00:09:08,530 -->85 00:09:02,560 -->84 00:08:57,010 -->83 00:08:51,520 -->82 00:08:43,340 -->81 00:08:35,760 -->80 00:08:30,590 -->79 00:08:26,120 -->78 00:08:20,300 -->77 00:08:15,350 -->76 00:08:08,270 -->75 00:08:00,830 -->74 00:07:51,050 -->73 00:07:47,870 -->72 00:07:42,380 -->71 00:07:38,150 -->70 00:07:30,890 -->69 00:07:25,070 -->68 00:07:16,940 -->67 00:07:09,050 -->66 00:07:03,260 -->65 00:06:54,320 -->64 00:06:48,030 -->63 00:06:41,900 -->62 00:06:39,500 -->61 00:06:32,220 -->60 00:06:27,170 -->59 00:06:21,020 -->58 00:06:16,020 -->57 00:06:09,130 -->56 00:06:01,120 -->55 00:05:54,940 -->54 00:05:50,830 -->53 00:05:42,610 -->52 00:05:37,840 -->51 00:05:31,510 -->50 00:05:25,900 -->49 00:05:21,760 -->48 00:05:15,010 -->47 00:05:08,950 -->46 00:05:04,710 -->45 00:05:00,750 -->44 00:04:54,990 -->43 00:04:45,750 -->42 00:04:43,920 -->41 00:04:38,280 -->40 00:04:34,110 -->39 00:04:29,010 -->38 00:04:24,480 -->37 00:04:20,100 -->36 00:04:15,610 -->35 00:04:11,520 -->34 00:04:02,670 -->33 00:03:55,740 -->32 00:03:48,930 -->31 00:03:38,880 -->30 00:03:30,210 -->29 00:03:25,140 -->28 00:03:21,000 -->27 00:03:16,530 -->26 00:03:10,410 -->25 00:03:02,520 -->24 00:03:00,690 -->23 00:02:51,150 -->22 00:02:39,090 -->21 00:02:35,700 -->20 00:02:27,150 -->19 00:02:18,910 -->18 00:02:13,230 -->17 00:02:06,510 -->16 00:02:02,160 -->15 00:01:56,910 -->14 00:01:48,780 -->13 00:01:43,530 -->12 00:01:33,870 -->11 00:01:27,070 -->10 00:01:23,130 -->9 00:01:18,810 -->8 00:01:11,790 -->7 00:01:01,540 -->6 00:00:49,680 -->5 00:00:44,220 -->4 00:00:35,190 -->3 00:00:32,340 -->2 00:00:23,730 -->1 00:00:10,890 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks Alexandra Smith, who is finishing up her PhD and has just started a job as Public Health Research Support Officer at Devon County Council.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses     Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,700 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:27,660 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:36,820 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and in this episode, we are continuing our series on securing jobs during covid-19. 4 00:00:36,820 --> 00:00:44,460 I'm speaking to another of our current PGRs who's not quite finished writing up, but has started a job in a local authority. 5 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:54,810 So, Alexandra, you happy to introduce yourself? So my name is Alexandra Smith and I'm a student at the University of Exeter. 6 00:00:54,810 --> 00:01:00,720 I based in business school, but my PhD is on what I call the holistic health benefits of working groups. 7 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,820 So essentially I'm looking at five different variables organisational landscape, physical health, 8 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:14,430 mental health and social capital and their influence on working group participant motivation for joining, remaining and leaving. 9 00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:18,210 So at the moment, I am working with Devon County Council. 10 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:23,790 I'm a public health research support officer and it's a role funded by the NIHR. 11 00:01:23,790 --> 00:01:31,320 That's the National Institute of Health Research, and it sits within the the CRN the Clinical Research Network. 12 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:37,560 So essentially, NIHR is really interested in expanding its public health portfolio. 13 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:45,990 So my role is to sort of link up researchers to populations to to get data from so I can 14 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:50,880 do that through Connections that I have through the team within Devon County Council, 15 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:58,440 but also to to create spaces for collaboration for public health. 16 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:09,780 So I work across lots of different teams, so I will work with different individuals in D.C.C public health, but also broader DCC. 17 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:15,060 So I'm also linking up with people in sort of who work more in the environment who are 18 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:22,140 interested in working in transport and also working with sort of more partners as well. 19 00:02:22,140 --> 00:02:31,500 So community and voluntary sector NHS CCG Trust those different kind of partnerships, academics as well. 20 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:39,180 And at the moment I'm working towards creating a webinar which DCC will be hosting on the 8th of July, 21 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:46,650 and that's really a great collaborative forum to get academics and other partners together, 22 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:54,660 to really talk through some of the pressing public health issues that we have in public health is such a huge area, 23 00:02:54,660 --> 00:02:58,770 really covers all aspects of life, really. 24 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:03,150 It's very interconnected. So it's really important to have those collaborative spaces. 25 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:08,100 And currently what I'm designing is a kind of like a platform. 26 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:17,220 I'm looking to do this through sort of SharePoint and also through Microsoft teams to enable 27 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:25,560 researchers and other collaborators to get together to put together grant applications. 28 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:35,250 The role that I have public health research support of is a new role. And there are about 20 of me across the UK with this title. 29 00:03:35,250 --> 00:03:41,430 And next week I have my first meeting to meet the rest of the team on that. 30 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:45,930 So I am new to a local authority. 31 00:03:45,930 --> 00:03:52,560 I'm new to public health, I'm new to NIHR, are very much started off like I did. 32 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,600 I did a bachelor's in human psychology. I did a Masters in psychological well-being and mental health. 33 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,270 And I worked as a research assistant to the University of Nottingham in the nursing, midwifery and physiotherapy department. 34 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:08,820 And from there, I kind of thought clinical perhaps isn't quite for me, but I've got more. 35 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:13,050 I really wanted more of a holistic perspective to individuals. 36 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:22,080 So that's when I moved to Exeter to do my PhD. And then it just started shaping more into a kind of public health policy, 37 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:29,940 kind of feel to it  then my supervisor suggested actually public health and maybe a local authority might work for you. 38 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:36,690 And this really this is a fantastic opportunity because it kind of brings those two things together. 39 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:41,640 It brings up public health interests and it brings that research element as well. 40 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:48,600 So what I've been doing is engaging with different people. So I've been having one to ones with different members of the D.C.C public health 41 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,900 team to understand their research about their area that they're working on. 42 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:57,690 And these could be really broad themes, you know, 43 00:04:57,690 --> 00:05:04,200 that there could be children and young persons or it could be mental health or it could be planetary health. 44 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,910 And they've been working on this for years. 45 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:14,430 And I have to understand what it is that they're doing and what specific research element could be within that. 46 00:05:14,430 --> 00:05:21,270 So it's been a big learning curve if you don't if you don't know anything about that particular field to begin with. 47 00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:23,370 So it's very much you've gotta swap your 48 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:31,110 head from learning about one topic and then something, you have to give somebody else an entirely different project and an entirely different topic, 49 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:38,070 and it's just understanding those kind of connections that you can make to have like a broad you know, 50 00:05:38,070 --> 00:05:43,590 we need something researched into this or we need this really specific kind of population. 51 00:05:43,590 --> 00:05:49,080 So it's it's been a steep learning curve. I wouldn't have it any other way. 52 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,140 Yeah. And I think that's a really important thing. 53 00:05:52,140 --> 00:06:00,990 to acknowledge that quite often when you're moving from research into any other sector, but particularly kind of, 54 00:06:00,990 --> 00:06:07,290 you know, the public policy kind of area that you're working in, it's going to be a steep learning curve. 55 00:06:07,290 --> 00:06:14,220 But that doesn't mean that you don't have valuable knowledge and skills and expertise to apply in those areas. 56 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:14,820 Exactly. 57 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:25,390 And it is really just about, you know, that that frame of mind when you start applying for jobs that are outside of academia because I don't know, 58 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:32,130 certainly certainly I found that I perhaps didn't want to work in academia, although I did really still like research. 59 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:34,560 But I wanted to get more into public health and understand that. 60 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:41,730 But I don't have a public health master's, and that's just not something that I could go straight into, you know, to get a job. 61 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:46,950 And I need to get some money. I can't just go study again. 62 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:52,110 And it is really just about I found LinkedIn incredibly helpful for that process, actually, 63 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:58,230 because you can follow different organisations and you can follow different people who are interesting to you. 64 00:06:58,230 --> 00:07:03,720 Interesting to you. And you can learn about opportunities that you never would have thought about. 65 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:09,420 And that there is a learning to and where you have to understand and unpick some of that language. 66 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:13,810 But some of it is just about immersing yourself in it. 67 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:20,310 And for me, It's just constant exposure. The more exposure you get to it, over time, you pick it up. 68 00:07:20,310 --> 00:07:27,840 And I found that incredibly invaluable because then I broke out of my understanding the language 69 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:33,540 of academia and the language of other organisations and therefore what they were looking for. 70 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:42,690 And that actually I had those skills. I just needed to understand it in different words and they needed to sell it in different words. 71 00:07:42,690 --> 00:07:48,150 So I would say LinkedIn was actually invaluable for that it really was 72 00:07:48,150 --> 00:07:52,470 And then, you know, it's just about going through those applications. 73 00:07:52,470 --> 00:08:03,900 Give yourself enough time for it. So I suppose I take like I took two different strategies to it, like applying for loads of jobs, 74 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:08,430 but also like I really want this one, or I think I could really get that one. 75 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:14,970 And I would probably say if you have the time, try and do it more focussed. 76 00:08:14,970 --> 00:08:18,960 But also it can be really interesting to just apply more generally. 77 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:32,490 So I, I got an interview that was more about, you know, turning academic projects into, like the business ventures. 78 00:08:32,490 --> 00:08:35,160 I don't know if that's the direction that I want to go into. 79 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:42,060 And it was really helpful to have that interview to understand maybe this wasn't something I wanted to pursue now, 80 00:08:42,060 --> 00:08:50,430 but I never would have got that experience had I not applied for something totally different. 81 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:57,390 So it can be a really useful learning strategy to to apply for a variety of different things that perhaps in the 82 00:08:57,390 --> 00:09:06,960 first instance and I suppose something that I would say is you can be a bit overwhelmed with interviews suddenly, 83 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:14,570 like I would have, like, I don't know, like for interviews. 84 00:09:14,570 --> 00:09:25,670 Four days in a row, that's exactly how it could happen, and you've got to do a presentation for it and you might have to do like a group work for it. 85 00:09:25,670 --> 00:09:29,660 So there is there is a big time commitment to it. 86 00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:36,350 Don't underestimate that because there's a lot of work you need to put in, particularly for my current job. 87 00:09:36,350 --> 00:09:38,270 Fortunately for my other interviews, 88 00:09:38,270 --> 00:09:45,560 I'd also I'd already been looking into public health things and obviously public health stuff has been going on for years. 89 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:52,730 Public Health England has been around for a while now. So there's lots and lots of information and there's lots of changes. 90 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:59,960 The language is very involved. So it does take time if you're moving into a new area. 91 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:06,260 But it's just the fact that exposure, that commitment, trying different things. 92 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:13,550 And yeah, it just got to the point where I know I knew enough and I knew how to kind of frame myself. 93 00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:19,520 I knew what my I knew the things that I was particularly strong in. 94 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:26,310 And I would say I don't want to say like it's unique selling point, but. 95 00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:33,300 What is it that you have to offer and what is it that they have to offer? 96 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:39,840 Like yeah ok, you need a job, but it's probably going to be way worse if you just have a job that you hate. 97 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,750 It's much better to have a job where you're much more aligned with the values. 98 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:49,140 So I would say I think it probably depends on you as an individual, 99 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:54,240 but personally being involved in how it's like my values are really important to me. 100 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,870 So my organisation, the organisation that I want to work with, 101 00:10:57,870 --> 00:11:04,110 I need to make sure that my values are aligned with those, because if it doesn't, then it's just not sustainable. 102 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:11,250 I'm not going to do a good job. I'm going to get fired. Then I'm not going to get like a very good, you know, like a reference, that kind of thing. 103 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:16,750 Is it really worth it? I think it's worth just thinking about what do you want? 104 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:22,890 What do they have to offer? You know, it's very true that people say, you know, it's not just that you are being interviewed. 105 00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:29,010 You're also interviewing them. You know, do you just feel like maybe this is a bit of a toxic environment going on? 106 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:32,880 Or do you feel like this this team really works as a team, 107 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:41,250 that they really have this this combined overall sense of leadership in this respect for one another. 108 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:45,060 And that's really what I found at DCC I couldn't be more happy. 109 00:11:45,060 --> 00:11:49,470 I really couldn't. I feel so much part of the team. 110 00:11:49,470 --> 00:11:58,730 And I love this this mutual respect that everybody has for everybody, you know, from the top down, everybody. 111 00:11:58,730 --> 00:12:09,950 feels you know, everybody has that combined sense of of feeling valued and heard, and I think that I really appreciate that personally. 112 00:12:09,950 --> 00:12:18,170 And something really important I want to pick up on there is that a lot of people are using things like LinkedIn as a kind of an awareness 113 00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:28,490 raising to see what's out there and what's possible and where your skills and experience could be highly valued or sought after. 114 00:12:28,490 --> 00:12:33,920 Don't don't underestimate your value as a researcher. 115 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,090 You're trained to be creative in your thought. 116 00:12:38,090 --> 00:12:44,990 You're trained to look out for those little nuances and question everything. 117 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:49,220 And I think that that's something that I found really interesting working at DCC 118 00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:55,010 because people are obviously trying to understand what is best practise, 119 00:12:55,010 --> 00:13:01,760 what is the literature so that we can understand how we can support our populations the best. 120 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,900 But there's also this kind of practicality of like we need to do something now. 121 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:13,970 And research works at a completely different time to local authorities who need to be helping the populations 122 00:13:13,970 --> 00:13:18,830 now that they don't need to know the findings of a randomised control trial 10 years in the future. 123 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:26,810 So it's really trying to sort of bring those two things together. And that's that's something where I sort of really come in to help them with. 124 00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:30,080 And I suppose the thing about, you know, 125 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,920 a local authorities that they're trying to they've got to sort of split their population 126 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,510 up to understand how we can how can we support this population or that population, 127 00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:42,380 this geographical area or children and young persons or whatever. 128 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:48,380 And research takes quite a can take quite a different approach. We will go. 129 00:13:48,380 --> 00:13:55,490 Don't make any assumptions and you know, where where are things that we can connect, 130 00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:58,640 where are the similarities, where are the differences I have a background in psychology 131 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:06,830 So I'm sort of trying to understand more about how we can incorporate individual differences more into research. 132 00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:11,390 You know, it's this kind of within and between group differences. 133 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:16,490 So this is kind of like this two is two different needs going on, 134 00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:24,620 and it's about understanding how we can pick those apart and come up with a strategy going forward. 135 00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:32,360 Can you talk a little bit about the process of finding this, the job that you're in at DCC and this opportunity? 136 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:44,360 The job that I actually got now, I got off the back of an interview, so I'd applied for like like an intelligence analyst job DCC. 137 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,980 So I'm I'm based in intelligence as well. That's just where I sit in the team. 138 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:55,940 But I actually straddle so many different, like pretty much everything in public health. 139 00:14:55,940 --> 00:15:03,770 because research is so broad and public health is so interconnected. 140 00:15:03,770 --> 00:15:12,380 So that's what I applied for. And the because obviously I got that analysis background. 141 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:18,530 I've got mixed methods, background so quant and qual and I didn't get it. 142 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:25,010 And the feedback that I got was great is just that you didn't quite tick some of the public health boxes. 143 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:36,500 So get more familiar with with public health language and, you know, the JSNA the joint strategic needs assessment, those kind of things. 144 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:44,990 And then, yeah, then I got sent through the like the the job advert. 145 00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:49,300 I applied for it, I. 146 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:56,890 Then had the interview and managed to secure the job and, you know, and you're always going to get feedback and feedback is incredibly valuable. 147 00:15:56,890 --> 00:16:06,040 This isn't something to shy away from embracing. It is really important and valuable things in there about values. 148 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,220 And, you know, like you said earlier, about buzz words. 149 00:16:09,220 --> 00:16:18,100 And there are certain things that when we talk about careers, are buzzwords and and feel like like platitudes and like kind of management speak. 150 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:24,310 And one of those is kind of the importance of knowing your values to finding the right career path for you. 151 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:30,430 But actually in practise, it is it's cliche and it's it yeah. 152 00:16:30,430 --> 00:16:35,320 It feels like kind of business speak, but it is actually true. Yeah, exactly. 153 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,290 And I suppose, you know, I fought it in the past and just gone like, oh, no business speak buzz words 154 00:16:41,290 --> 00:16:45,850 Same, oh, it just turns me off completely. 155 00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:49,270 It makes me feel like it totally goes against my values. 156 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:58,090 But I look at I suppose I look at it more as a language tool that I use to communicate a concept to other people. 157 00:16:58,090 --> 00:17:06,550 And that message and that communication is more important than perhaps preconceptions I have about it. 158 00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:12,940 Yeah, absolutely. And then the other one, I think really comes up in what you're saying is also the hidden job market, 159 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:18,790 which is another one of those kind of management speak things, Business speak things that you hear and you shudder. 160 00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:22,510 But it is so true in practise. Yeah, I know. 161 00:17:22,510 --> 00:17:30,700 I suppose what I would say about this is that it's it's totally different to what I thought that it was like. 162 00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:35,590 It's you know, it's not sort of like I mean, I don't know how it works. 163 00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:41,080 And other things like DCC has a structure and lots of other places do where, you know, 164 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:49,330 you have like tick boxes and you score a value based on like, you know, they're looking for a topic or a theme or something. 165 00:17:49,330 --> 00:17:58,420 And they will judge your answer, you know, I mean, this is how I understand it to be, you know, give you a score on your answer for that topic. 166 00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:06,970 You know, that particular thing that they're asking you about during the interview. And whoever gets the most points gets the job. 167 00:18:06,970 --> 00:18:13,990 So, you know, it was totally different from what I understood to be that kind of hidden job market, 168 00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:19,400 because I suppose the hidden job market, I assumed it was sort of like, oh, here's this job and you should just go for it. 169 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,830 And I would, you know, you. But it doesn't it doesn't work like that. 170 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:28,190 Every job's going to be advertised. You know, legally, this has got to happen. 171 00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:31,960 And in terms of fairness. 172 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:41,650 But if if somebody sees something in you and goes, actually, I think that this could be really useful to you, then you will know about it. 173 00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:45,640 You'll know about it in advance. And you might not you know you know, you might know about it a couple of days. 174 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:51,970 You might know about it a week or something. And that can give you a bit of lead time to think about, is this what I want to give that person? 175 00:18:51,970 --> 00:19:00,110 Thanks. Do some research into it. So, yeah, it's completely different to what I thought I was that it was some sneaky thing. 176 00:19:00,110 --> 00:19:06,610 It's not. It's not. It's more about somebody seeing something in you and going, actually, this might interest you. 177 00:19:06,610 --> 00:19:15,190 I suppose, to begin with, I found this idea of networking quite scary and I felt quite awkward with it. 178 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:18,430 But actually, if I just bring it back to what my values were, 179 00:19:18,430 --> 00:19:30,590 my values are helping people and helping the broader theme of of helping people generally with, you know, with physical activity or whatever. 180 00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:35,140 And so in that respect, that's why it immediately struck me. 181 00:19:35,140 --> 00:19:44,470 Oh I'll send this person, you know, that paper or that link to that grant funding because I'm helping somebody. 182 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:49,450 Exactly. And I think, again, you know, you hear networking and again, you think management people and speak. 183 00:19:49,450 --> 00:19:53,560 But actually, you know, it doesn't let you say about the hidden job market. 184 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,720 It's not necessarily your perception of it as a term. It's not necessarily how it works in practise. 185 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:06,100 I think we've we've uncovered so much in this about kind of like actually the importance of your values to driving you and thinking 186 00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:13,600 about how you investigate and look at different jobs and be a bit more targeted than just using those kind of a big job site, 187 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,600 then the kind of hidden job market actually in applying for jobs. 188 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:23,110 It creates new opportunities for you because you might not be right for the particular position that you've applied for, 189 00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:26,050 but there might be something else coming up that they go, oh, actually, 190 00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:33,040 we spoke to Alexandra and although she wasn't right for that job, she'd be perfect for this job. 191 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,060 And also the kind of, you know, networking doesn't have to be clinical. It's about, you know, 192 00:20:37,060 --> 00:20:48,800 being collegiate and having conversations with people and kind of helping basically some advice that I got about networking was about. 193 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,530 Sort of keeping a contact and that sort of stuff. 194 00:20:51,530 --> 00:21:00,320 I mean, there was just too much to do in a day, you know, and I don't know that all of that would be completely genuine if you had to. 195 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:09,650 I mean, nobody can do that. That's just too much. If something just happens to crop up and it seems relevant to that person, then I'd send it. 196 00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:14,720 If it's kind of general like chit chat, I just don't know that's that valuable to anybody. 197 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,380 But it depends on who you are, depends on who the other person is, 198 00:21:18,380 --> 00:21:26,060 depends on and sort of what stage they're at before we kind of bring and bring this to a close. 199 00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:34,580 I wondered if we could talk a little bit about what you think. So one of the anxieties people, a research degree students have tends to be about. 200 00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:46,770 But what skills do I have that are relevant to, you know, relevant to industry or relevant to public policy or the public sector and. 201 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:56,700 The answer is so, so many. I wondered if you could talk about your specific role and what are the what's the knowledge, 202 00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:06,430 what the skills that you use from your day most in your in your work life? 203 00:22:06,430 --> 00:22:25,880 I think perhaps the reason why PhD students struggle with understanding the values that they have and the how do you say those broader skill sets 204 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,120 It's because you're doing a PhD 205 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:39,320 these things are very the environment is is completely different to other environments and it's kind of like very much your project. 206 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,740 And it can get quite intense and quite lonely sometimes. 207 00:22:42,740 --> 00:22:51,140 Even if you are attending a seminar or you're collaborating with somebody else, it's still your project at the end of the day. 208 00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:55,530 And I think when you're that close to something over time. 209 00:22:55,530 --> 00:23:07,980 It can start to just feel like everything it can just feel like it's the entire world and you don't know where you finish and the PhD begins. 210 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:13,890 And I kind of feel like I mean, I don't know it might happen to other people it certainly happened to me. 211 00:23:13,890 --> 00:23:22,410 And it's it's there that those kind of that value or those, you know, those flexible skills, 212 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:27,240 I think get lost because you don't understand how to advertise it because it's just one. 213 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:36,060 You know what I mean, you are the PhD are just one. And I think probably the the biggest thing. 214 00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:44,850 for me that I use every day is collaboration, I mean, my PhD was very much just, 215 00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:50,040 you know, me sat at my desk, you know, and occasionally I would attend seminars. 216 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,620 But they were I mean, there's really not very many people studying the area that I do this, 217 00:23:55,620 --> 00:24:01,620 like one main person that I know in the world who's studying it. 218 00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:12,060 So, you know, it can feel very lonely. But I've had different opportunities for collaboration and I've worked on different projects, 219 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:14,460 different things that have come up within the university. 220 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:22,320 I kind of grasp those opportunities and made the full use out of them as much as you can so that you can demonstrate that you have those skills. 221 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,880 And don't forget, it's not just about putting it on the paper. 222 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:33,650 You know, in your cover letter or in your CV is then demonstrating that you have that at the interview. 223 00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:37,410 You know, if you want to if you're trying to say, I have great listening skills, 224 00:24:37,410 --> 00:24:41,910 then listen, I really make sure that you're having those active listening skills. 225 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:49,200 You're really listening to what those questions are. You're picking them apart and then you're answering those questions specifically. 226 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,390 So I would say my interpersonal skills are the biggest thing that I use. 227 00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:58,070 And so I definitely would say. 228 00:24:58,070 --> 00:25:09,800 It can be it's the same with like talking to other people and using people as sounding boards, they can help you pick apart what your skills are. 229 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,180 I mean, yes, there were those kind of hard skills that you have. I've learnt this bit of software. 230 00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:18,980 I taught myself that if you've taught yourself something, say it. 231 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:26,090 That's really important because it shows that you're able to to learn and to adapt and to 232 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:33,800 identify a need and fulfil it to be that reflective like to have that self reflection and to go, 233 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:40,940 OK, this is like a gap or like, OK, I'm going to call it a gap rather than a weakness. 234 00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:47,060 And to be able to sort of fill that. I mean, you're trained so highly in teaching yourself. 235 00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:53,870 That's really what a PhD is it's teaching yourself to teach yourself and teaching yourself to learn. 236 00:25:53,870 --> 00:25:59,330 So that's kind of the biggest thing. And that can really take you places. 237 00:25:59,330 --> 00:26:04,610 Thank you so much to Alexandra for a really fascinating and deep, 238 00:26:04,610 --> 00:26:10,670 and involved discussion about how she came to her role working in public health 239 00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:16,730 and the kind of career journey that she's been on the application process. 240 00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:24,410 And you know what she's doing now and she's how she's applying her experience from her PhD. 241 00:26:24,410 --> 00:26:40,261 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks Dr. Joanna Alfaro, a University of Exeter doctoral graduate who is now the Director of the Peruvian conservation organisation Pro Delphinus.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:23,270 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:28,070 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. I'm your host, Kelly Preece 3 00:00:28,070 --> 00:00:32,150 And for this episode, I'm delighted to be talking to Dr Joanna Alfaro, 4 00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:38,090 who is the president and director of the Peruvian conservation organisation Pro Delphinus 5 00:00:38,090 --> 00:00:41,780 So, Joanna. Are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah. 6 00:00:41,780 --> 00:00:45,770 Well, my name is Joanna Alfaro and I am Peruvian. 7 00:00:45,770 --> 00:00:57,290 I work in Pro Delphinus and Universidad Científica del Sur. So in 2008 I joined in the programme for PhD 8 00:00:57,290 --> 00:01:03,380 My advisor was Brendan Godley and Annette Broderick at Exeter 9 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:16,670 And I was. That's probably my favourite years as being back a student in the U.K., a dream that I was able to fulfil. 10 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:25,460 And for my the theme of my PhD was ecology and conservation of marine turtles. 11 00:01:25,460 --> 00:01:34,270 And that was also great because it allowed me to to apply the knowledge and the 12 00:01:34,270 --> 00:01:41,080 experience that I got to working with sea turtles in Peru towards my PhD. 13 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,210 It's brilliant. Thank you. And what are you doing now? 14 00:01:45,210 --> 00:01:56,700 So when did you graduate? So the though after the PhD, the I was able to to be back at home and and keep working. 15 00:01:56,700 --> 00:02:04,710 And what I love, which is marine conservation. So the projects we we have right now are focus. 16 00:02:04,710 --> 00:02:13,470 It was a very interesting transition because we started our careers being a species oriented. 17 00:02:13,470 --> 00:02:21,330 And by that I mean that I was I love dolphins and whales and sea turtles. 18 00:02:21,330 --> 00:02:25,110 So that was my interest. But we learnt over time. 19 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:34,880 And and my PhD was a big lesson learnt that is not only about the animals that we were, 20 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:42,360 that we're when we're working with animals, we should also look at the people that is related to the animals. 21 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:49,630 So in my case, these people were fishermen. And mostly small-scale fishermen. 22 00:02:49,630 --> 00:02:59,020 And so the the the current work we do now is trying to support fishermen, to keep fishing. 23 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:09,520 But in a more clean way, in a sustainable way, in a way that they can keep fishing for the for many, 24 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:15,010 many years to come, but also in a way that we are helping animals. 25 00:03:15,010 --> 00:03:23,300 And in this case, it'll be the ones that we have this passion for the dolphins, the whales, the sea turtles. 26 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:33,580 So it's it's a very good combination to be able to to be in the middle between biodiversity 27 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:43,600 and economic activities as fisheries and also communities and engaging the main users, 28 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:54,900 which are fishermen. That's great and really interesting how, like you say, that you've moved from thinking about particular species to. 29 00:03:54,900 --> 00:04:05,550 To fishermen. And that sort of shift in focus. So can you tell me a little bit about when you were doing your PhD? 30 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:10,110 Did you know that you want to move on to this kind of role? Oh, yes. 31 00:04:10,110 --> 00:04:18,360 Well, that's a great question. And that's a question that I mention when when I have the chance. 32 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:28,910 When we started the PhD, we had no idea that we will end up working with fisheries and with people. 33 00:04:28,910 --> 00:04:35,400 And I think that's an idea that a lot of young people start with. 34 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:46,950 I mean, you go with with with this love for the ocean and the creatures, but then it's it's important to realise that it's. 35 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:56,310 It will give you have to become useful. It's a bad way to say it, but you have to become useful for society. 36 00:04:56,310 --> 00:05:02,700 And and it's great if you can, because, well, that's a role we all have. 37 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:13,050 But but it and in a way, our careers as  researchers and biologists are key to to to make this transition 38 00:05:13,050 --> 00:05:22,260 between nature and wildlife and maintain the livelihoods of of people like fishermen, 39 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:28,820 in my case, for example. So can you tell me a bit more about. 40 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:36,620 The conservation organisation you work for. And what kind of what sort of work that you're doing and how you're drawing on 41 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:46,170 your experience as a as a researcher and and particularly during your PhD 42 00:05:46,170 --> 00:05:55,150 Yes, sure. So my PhD was on sea turtles and most of my chapters had to be on sea turtles. 43 00:05:55,150 --> 00:06:01,710 And I did my PhD with my husband, which is which it was a great challenge. 44 00:06:01,710 --> 00:06:10,340 At some point, we were we were sharing the same. 45 00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:14,830 Stress, and it's but we made it through somehow. 46 00:06:14,830 --> 00:06:20,680 And the we are we can we evolve from being a species oriented. 47 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,000 So my my focus was marine turtles 48 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:32,290 workingwith Brendan and and my husband  was working on seabirds and marine mammals. 49 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:41,380 So we shifted a little bit once being back at home in Pery to work to to apply what we learnt and 50 00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:49,030 apply it to improve fisheries and support fishermen to continue to be able to continue fishing. 51 00:06:49,030 --> 00:06:54,820 So that has changed just slightly or like I don't know. 52 00:06:54,820 --> 00:07:00,310 And the thing is, that is it continues changing, especially now with COVID 53 00:07:00,310 --> 00:07:05,770 Some of our work at Pro Delphinus has changed dramatically. 54 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:15,400 We can no longer go to the field. We do most of the stuff by phone call or Zoom or Whatsapp 55 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:26,470 So we are where we see changes in our work during the the latest circumstances of of health worldwide. 56 00:07:26,470 --> 00:07:31,870 And that's the fun part of it. I think the to be constant changing. 57 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:36,220 I think it it brings challenges is not always the same. 58 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:44,500 Every day there is something new that we are learning, but it's is where we are enjoying this. 59 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:57,490 Right. Really. And Pro Delphinus there is we have perhaps over 20 people on the staff and we keep growing, which is very good. 60 00:07:57,490 --> 00:08:05,110 And each of them have an interest and that's the that's what it reaches the the environment 61 00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:11,890 we work in because somebody else may be interested in the social side of the work we do. 62 00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:21,210 Somebody else could be interested in the economics of it. So it's it's I'm enjoying it. 63 00:08:21,210 --> 00:08:22,410 It sounds amazing. 64 00:08:22,410 --> 00:08:30,880 And not only kind of really rewarding work, but also incredibly diverse in the different things that you're gonna be doing, especially. 65 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:37,770 And, you know, as a result of the COVID 19 pandemic and the impact that that's had on all, you know, the ways, everybody's way of working. 66 00:08:37,770 --> 00:08:42,300 So you won an award. Last October. 67 00:08:42,300 --> 00:08:48,130 Did you not Peru's highest award for conservation? Can you tell us a little bit about that. 68 00:08:48,130 --> 00:08:59,420 Oh, man, that was fun. That was that was unexpected. So they they sent me an email saying, the name of the award is Carlos Ponce 69 00:08:59,420 --> 00:09:05,080 Premio para la Conservacion which is a very renown prize 70 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:16,160 And for Peru, for people working in conservation in Peru. The organisers is a group a consortium is Conservation International. 71 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:25,810 WCS, Pronaturaleza  these organisations have worked for a long time in Peru. 72 00:09:25,810 --> 00:09:37,360 And when with with the e-mail when I answered, I said yes, but I haven't applied to this award and I had no idea. 73 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:42,340 And then the lady. Well, when I was notified, it was a big surprise. 74 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:51,460 I enjoyed it a lot. The ceremony was by Zoom and that was that was very different. 75 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:56,830 But it was very moving. And for me personally was very moving. 76 00:09:56,830 --> 00:10:05,050 And for Pro Delphinus, I think the staff really enjoy it because it's not an award for a person. 77 00:10:05,050 --> 00:10:11,710 But to, in my opinion, is an award for an organisation that has over two decades working. 78 00:10:11,710 --> 00:10:18,540 So it was it was a very nice recognition for our work. 79 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:27,000 Absolutely. Could you tell me a bit more about how Pro Delphinus started? 80 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,460 Yes. Well, Pro Delphinus started to  so. 81 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:38,310 The father, the mother of Pro Delphinus, called Sipek whi is a 82 00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:40,350 a private organisation, 83 00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:53,340 a group of biologists and veterinarians living in Pucusana and working in marine mammals back in 1990s and towards the end of the 90s. 84 00:10:53,340 --> 00:11:02,670 They decided to to be more inclusive for for students and volunteers. 85 00:11:02,670 --> 00:11:08,850 And that was the start of Pro Delphinus and for for their early years. 86 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:15,760 We didn't do much. But in 2003, we started strong. 87 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:26,500 It was the year that we applied for a few grants and we got them all, which was a very nice surprise and a great challenge. 88 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:32,080 We we started growing slowly. We have been growing organically. 89 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:38,570 I want to say over the years, right now, I think we probably have. 90 00:11:38,570 --> 00:11:43,070 Ten projects and two are big. 91 00:11:43,070 --> 00:11:47,940 One is to focus on sustainable fisheries. 92 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:54,560 The small scale and the although the other one is for leatherback turtles. 93 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:08,030 Conservation. And and I want to take the chance to to mention that the population of Eastern leatherback pacific turtles are doing very bad. 94 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:18,740 So there's a bunch of countries from Mexico to Chile working on improve the conservation of this species to avoid extinction. 95 00:12:18,740 --> 00:12:24,170 This is one of the species that is highly impacted and nesting sites and at sea. 96 00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:35,090 So this project is all about Leatherbacks and working with to reduce bycatch and the water. 97 00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:42,600 And is this work with turtles that led you to become involved in Pro Delphinus or 98 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:54,150 Was it the fisheries work? It was my my work at Pro Delphinus started with marine mammals, and it started with dolphins because. 99 00:12:54,150 --> 00:13:03,330 Because then when I was a student in the 90's, dolphins were brought to shore and my. 100 00:13:03,330 --> 00:13:14,140 But if you ask me what I thought. My thoughts about a young student I wanted so badly to work with dolphins. 101 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:23,180 It was my dream. So this group that accepted me as a volunteer, Sipek, they worked with dolphins. 102 00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:26,210 So I went there and started volunteer and. 103 00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:40,060 But I had no idea that all the dolphins were going to be dead because they brought them from the fisheries interactions to shore and. 104 00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:46,450 So it started with dolphins and then they evolved and move on to turtles. 105 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:52,360 Because as I was observing dolphins, it was the same issue with turtles. 106 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:59,770 One day we went to a port and there was leatherback turtle laying on this Scarapas 107 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:08,260 And that was a pretty shocking image. Luckily, we don't see that anymore these days. 108 00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:14,230 But that was the start of my interest on sea turtles. 109 00:14:14,230 --> 00:14:26,820 And I was had had been very rewarding. In fact, the project we have that I just mentioned on leatherback turtles is trying to. 110 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:37,130 distribute LED light which have proved to help reduce the bycatch of sea turtles. 111 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:44,960 And with this project, we can hand them, the fishermen, to have them in their nets to avoid 112 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:53,110 The entanglement of the turtles. And reduce mortality, hopefully. 113 00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:58,690 You're currently the director at Pro Delphinus. Did you. 114 00:14:58,690 --> 00:15:05,450 Did you go straight into that position after your you completed your PhD 115 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:25,270 No. No. I started volunteering and my volunteer was cleaning floors, dusting bones, picking up buckets of guts of Dolphin. 116 00:15:25,270 --> 00:15:32,720 My volutneer was pretty rough, and I think it was good. 117 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:45,140 I'm very grateful that it was a rough start because there was a test in my mind was a test and probably in the mind of my my bosses on that time. 118 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:52,430 So I started as a volunteer cleaning, mostly helping in everything. 119 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:57,230 And then I became a junior researcher. 120 00:15:57,230 --> 00:16:08,210 And then from there, an assistant researcher. And then now I'm the director of Pro Delphinus, which is very different. 121 00:16:08,210 --> 00:16:16,090 But I still clean. So really a case of sort of getting involved with the organisation from the ground up. 122 00:16:16,090 --> 00:16:29,130 Yes. Yes. And that has been good. I am I'm happy that it was started that way, because now I can I can place myself in the shoes of the volunteers. 123 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:40,880 And and and I, I work my way up, which which was has been a rewarding feel is. 124 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,070 So could you tell me kind of like what your typical day is like? 125 00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:51,050 I know the answer is going to be there isn't one Yeah, sure. 126 00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:54,430 My typical day has changed now. 127 00:16:54,430 --> 00:16:59,240 And there were a lot of sitting. A lot of computer time. 128 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:10,850 But before that. And that's because of COVID then because the office is partially closed, we are starting to go but not many hours and et cetera. 129 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:17,960 But my normal day before COVID was a little bit more fun. 130 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:25,250 Most of my days will be meetings with government officers or in some occasions I also 131 00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:31,820 go to fishing ports because I don't want to lose the connection of with the field. 132 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:43,220 If somebody asked me in my job, I want to be able to tell them from experience what I have been observing and respond with the experience. 133 00:17:43,220 --> 00:17:47,420 So the contact with the field and fishermen, it's important to me. 134 00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:56,830 So I will go I will combine meetings, office time with some travelling and. 135 00:17:56,830 --> 00:18:02,350 And some and phone calls, a lot of phone calls, too. We write a lot of papers. 136 00:18:02,350 --> 00:18:11,110 We we work on that. That's our most precious. 137 00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:20,290 Give give back to society and to academia and to the country that has this has been the focus. 138 00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:25,750 Last year we did over 20 papers, the year before I think 18. 139 00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:29,590 So we're we're good. The staff is great about that. 140 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:34,040 They're really into research and publishing. 141 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:47,230 And that sounds such a varied day and a varied kind of type of work in terms of advocacy and being in the field, writing papers and, you know, 142 00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:51,730 still having that really important kind of academic research contribution, 143 00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:57,890 as well as the wider kind of contribution that you're making to conservation. 144 00:18:57,890 --> 00:19:02,840 Sounds like a fantastic kind of combination. I wonder if we can sort of. 145 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,490 To finish up what advice you have for anyone who is currently doing PhD 146 00:19:07,490 --> 00:19:15,450 Who wants to. Pursue a career in the kind of conservation organisation that you're working in. 147 00:19:15,450 --> 00:19:24,870 Mm hmm. Yeah, well, the advice in general will be if you have a topic that is of your interest. 148 00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:29,290 That's great. But if you don't, it will come up. 149 00:19:29,290 --> 00:19:35,430 It will come up at some point and you will identify something that is really interesting for you. 150 00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:44,250 So don't worry if you don't have that passion that that some people do at early age and take 151 00:19:44,250 --> 00:19:53,550 opportunities as they come to experiment and try different things within your career and out of your career, 152 00:19:53,550 --> 00:20:04,890 because sometimes you can combine things that are not specifically related to biology or research. 153 00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:12,000 And if you're thinking about working in an NGO is this is great. 154 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,270 I mean, for us has been great. I know it's challenging because you have to look for your own funds. 155 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:29,070 But the early years are difficult. And then it becomes smoother as your expertise, as you develop your expertise. 156 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:38,880 And combining that with PhD had been for us a great step in our careers, in our lives. 157 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:50,240 We still collaborate with Brendan So we build a little network in Exeter and that I hope it continues over time. 158 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:58,360 And and and and I'm looking forward for what's coming in the future. 159 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:09,160 Thank you so much to Joanna for taking the time out to talk about the really exciting and important work that she's doing. 160 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:24,884 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks Dr. Heather Hind and Dr. Philippa Earle, who are doctoral graduates from English currently work as Digital Learning Developers in the College of Medicine and Health at the University of Exeter.    Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,400 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,320 Hello, and a warm welcome to another episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,560 I'm Kelly Preece, the research development manager in the Doctoral College, 4 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:38,670 and I'm continuing episodes on the theme of getting jobs and moving forward with your career. 5 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:44,190 During COVID 19, by talking to actually in this episode, two of our doctoral graduates. 6 00:00:44,190 --> 00:00:50,880 So Dr Philippa Earle and Dr Heather Huind both of whom did their PhDs in English but are now working in professional 7 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:58,320 services roles at the University of Exeter in roles that were created in response to the COVID 19 pandemic. 8 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,880 So Heather and Philippa, are you happy to introduce yourselves? I'm Dr Heather Hind 9 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:10,860 I did my PhD in English literature, specifically Victorian literature and things that the Victorians made out of human hair. 10 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:20,610 And I finished in while I handed in in March 2020, just before the first lockdown's started and had my viva last year. 11 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:26,970 And since then, I've been working for the university as a digital learning developer for the College of Medicine and Health. 12 00:01:26,970 --> 00:01:34,090 So I'm Dr Philippa Earle I finished my PhD at Exeter in. 13 00:01:34,090 --> 00:01:41,350 Summer of 2018. It seems a long time ago now. And my thesis was on John Milton. 14 00:01:41,350 --> 00:01:47,800 And I'm really interested in his material philosophy, which is commonly called monism. 15 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,600 And so I've kind of been floating around since then, doing various things. 16 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:58,590 I'd really like to get into academia. I really enjoy teaching. 17 00:01:58,590 --> 00:02:04,650 I have done some casual teaching since then to different roles at different universities, 18 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:10,680 and I then came into doing this digital learning development role kind of last September. 19 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:17,100 So I was kind of last minute recruits and it kind of slotted in working with Heather. 20 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:22,560 That's fabulous. Like you say, probably it's useful just to start with, kind of back it up, back a little bit. 21 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:30,110 What a digital learning developer is. And I think particularly as well how these roles have. 22 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:35,670 It evolved because of the situation with the current pandemic. 23 00:02:35,670 --> 00:02:41,730 And so when they were first advertised, I think I applied last June, 24 00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:47,320 I think I started my application the week before my viva, and then I had the interview the week after my viva. 25 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:54,390 Wow. Yes, it was the time. It was honestly really fortuitous for me as it worked out. 26 00:02:54,390 --> 00:03:02,610 But they were advertised as roles to support the shift to online teaching during the pandemic. 27 00:03:02,610 --> 00:03:04,650 And to think what the job description said. 28 00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:13,680 It said, you know, supporting teaching staff, troubleshooting online issues, helping to develop the virtual learning environment. 29 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,300 ELE at Exeter. But it was it was relatively vague. 30 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:22,950 I don't know if Philippa would agree, but it was, you know, relatively, you know, job speak sort of. 31 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:27,330 These are all of the possible things that you might be asked to do. Vague. 32 00:03:27,330 --> 00:03:36,780 But as the role has gone on and we've been able to shape it to a certain extent to what sort of support our college needs. 33 00:03:36,780 --> 00:03:41,700 It's been a lot more about kind of project management, checking over modules and quality, 34 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:47,040 assuring them for the online side of things to make sure that the students are properly supported. 35 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,230 Have all the information they need, 36 00:03:49,230 --> 00:04:00,360 online seminars and lectures and things are running smoothly and that we're continually trying to make things better, innovate, use new digital tools. 37 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:07,560 Yeah, I think I hadn't kind of anticipated quite how much I would learn, I suppose, because I was sort of thinking, well, 38 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:16,650 we were both kind of chucked into the online teaching through the kind of teaching roles we were doing at the time last March. 39 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:25,950 And I kind of needed something more stable. And these were full time roles, even though they're fixed term. 40 00:04:25,950 --> 00:04:31,350 And yeah, I think Heather and I kind of came at this from a very similar angle, really. 41 00:04:31,350 --> 00:04:39,660 We're both English PhD graduates. Both interested in it and going into academia and. 42 00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:46,860 Yeah. I suppose we kind of thought of this as a way of being sort of resourceful with the kind of options that are out there, 43 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:52,470 but also having a bit more kind of job security. So, you know, I came to this role thinking, well, 44 00:04:52,470 --> 00:05:00,000 I can bring a little bit of my experience that I've had just from having to sort of fumble your way through and shove everything online last minute, 45 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:09,180 but actually have just learnt so much. And yeah, as has Heather was saying, about kind of quality assurance, different digital tools and the options. 46 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:14,130 And so actually, I'm I'm really pleased that I've managed to kind of get loads out of this and 47 00:05:14,130 --> 00:05:17,400 not just for kind of improving the quality of the teaching and the college, 48 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:26,400 but also kind of my own understanding of pedagogy and the way that you can kind of support your own teaching with digital tools and what works. 49 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:34,480 It's just been brilliant, really. Yeah, I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about it that way and also the you know, 50 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,400 the the fact that it's fitting into a kind of an aim for an academic career path. 51 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:47,380 And because it's it's giving you obviously it's giving you some job stability in the interim, but also, 52 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:54,770 you know, a real a range of really specialist skills that as a result of the pandemic are going to be. 53 00:05:54,770 --> 00:06:01,040 You know, the way that education is going to change in that inevitably is going to be so highly valued. 54 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:06,470 Moving forward. And I think also, yeah. 55 00:06:06,470 --> 00:06:10,820 Because there is just so much uncertainty. These were advertised as fixed term roles. 56 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:16,490 And, you know, the university hasn't quite decided what direction they're going in yet, whether they're going to be renewed. 57 00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:21,560 So I think we're both trying to keep an open mind and think, well, this is kind of plan A. 58 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:26,960 But equally, you know, we're quite happy doing these roles and then they're very valuable. 59 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:33,650 So it's a good stepping stone, really. And, you know, it's always good to have a backup plan is knowing the market as it is. 60 00:06:33,650 --> 00:06:41,990 So it's giving us a really good insight into professional services and just the other side of things at the university. 61 00:06:41,990 --> 00:06:50,540 The university structure working within kind of lots of different teams, different, introduced to different kinds of management there. 62 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:58,620 So, yeah, really good insight. And, you know, opening up kind of alternative possibilities, you know, if Plan A doesn't work out as well. 63 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:03,740 Yeah, I think that's that's a really, really fantastic way of looking at it and kind of, 64 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:08,180 you know, all of the various skills that you're going to be developing. 65 00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:16,340 I wondered if you could talk a little bit about. So you both did your PhDs in English and now you're working in medicine. 66 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:19,820 And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what that experience is like 67 00:07:19,820 --> 00:07:24,140 and what it's like working in a different college and supporting teaching, 68 00:07:24,140 --> 00:07:25,490 learning in a discipline, you know, 69 00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:34,870 relatively far removed from your own and and what that's like and kind of what you're taking across almost from one subject to another. 70 00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:41,960 And so I think we both applied for this role, but put down our preference for working in humanities. 71 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:50,150 I guess I had I's envisioned it, as, you know, being able to have a hand in the sorts of courses that I would be able to teach or, 72 00:07:50,150 --> 00:07:53,390 you know, captioning the sorts of lectures that I would one day give. 73 00:07:53,390 --> 00:08:01,910 And so I really had it in my mind while I was applying that I really wanted this job in the College of Humanities. 74 00:08:01,910 --> 00:08:09,590 And so when they offered it for the College of Medicine and Health, I was a little bit unsure of what that would involve. 75 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:17,600 And to what extent I would need some sort of knowledge base for supporting medicine courses, 76 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:26,720 but actually because we we support the postgraduate taught programmes and the continuing professional development programmes. 77 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:32,900 What we've really been able to carry across is our experience of being in postgraduates. 78 00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:40,400 Well, postgraduates, I mean researchers now. But, you know, people that have been through master's courses and know what it's like to go through 79 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:48,170 that very intense year where you move into an even more independent source of learning. 80 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:53,900 So there's definitely been that that we've been able to carry across. 81 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:56,090 We haven't needed too much subject specialist knowledge. 82 00:08:56,090 --> 00:09:03,410 Occasionally when we're captioning, we will have to Google some, you know, drug names or some bones or something. 83 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:10,210 But it's really been about our knowledge of teaching and supporting 84 00:09:10,210 --> 00:09:16,310 Learners, that has really helped us to, for example, look at an ELE module page and say, oh, 85 00:09:16,310 --> 00:09:24,530 actually this assessment brief is not very clear or it's missing some really key information about this or the prereading for this course is, 86 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:29,120 you know, not in the most, you know, obvious, clear place for people coming to it. 87 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:35,850 So so it's those sorts of universal things that I think we've been able to carry across. 88 00:09:35,850 --> 00:09:40,550 Yeah, I think I would just add to that the sum of the parts I've particularly enjoyed 89 00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:45,290 have been the opportunity to actually collaborate with academics as well. 90 00:09:45,290 --> 00:09:50,870 So we have the opportunity to have one to one meetings with them to really 91 00:09:50,870 --> 00:09:56,540 discuss kind of what they ideally would like to do or the kinds of activities. 92 00:09:56,540 --> 00:10:05,300 They've usually done in the past and and kind of help them come up with something that's really going to work in an online format. 93 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:17,380 So there's been a lot of trial and error, a few kind of failings along the way with, you know, synchronous sessions and what works best and. 94 00:10:17,380 --> 00:10:21,680 Well, you know, all sorts of things trying to put people into breakout rooms, 95 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:26,460 reassigning on Zoom and just kind of, you know, coming across different pitfalls. 96 00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:34,650 But we've actually managed to kind of develop our own kind of ways of working and solutions and kind of recommended methods, 97 00:10:34,650 --> 00:10:36,660 which is really quite exciting. And, yeah, 98 00:10:36,660 --> 00:10:43,650 I just I particularly enjoy kind of talking through what the academic wants to achieve and then being able to kind of 99 00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:53,460 draw on my knowledge that I've gained in this role of the digital tools how ELE works the best kind of format for, 100 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:53,730 you know, 101 00:10:53,730 --> 00:11:02,310 contact days or synchronous sessions and just really be sort of part of that and feel very much the our experience and knowledge is kind of valued. 102 00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:10,170 And I think, as Heather was saying, the fact that we do actually have some teaching experience ourselves, we can kind of, you know, 103 00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:14,970 get our minds into that that gear to really think about how it's going to work 104 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:19,680 and what's what's really gonna be best for the students learning as well. 105 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:29,070 And just to add to that that we've actually been given a lot of responsibility in that sense, more than I was kind of expecting really in this role. 106 00:11:29,070 --> 00:11:36,130 And, yeah. Of our kind of we've been sort of trusted to input our thoughts and in terms of kind 107 00:11:36,130 --> 00:11:41,790 of evaluating the strategy in the college and really kind of working at high levels, 108 00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:50,220 talking with the programme directors. The Dean for Education, Project enhance leadership team meetings. 109 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:57,330 So it's it's really great, actually, that we've been trusted and given the responsibility that we've had and that we've 110 00:11:57,330 --> 00:12:03,840 actually had the opportunity to kind of shape how we do things at a higher level as well, 111 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,800 as well as kind of working with individuals. That's something I really appreciated. Yeah. 112 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,420 And I think there's a couple of things, really brilliant things to pick out of that. 113 00:12:12,420 --> 00:12:21,510 The first of which is, you know, there were a lot of these roles across the institution and some of them have, 114 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:26,430 you know, gone to so they;re what, the University of Exeter call graduate business partner roles. 115 00:12:26,430 --> 00:12:36,600 Is that right? Yes. Yeah. GBPs. So some some people in these roles will be having just come out of undergraduate or postgraduate taught degrees. 116 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:43,680 And so their experience will be will be useful and certainly kind of, you know, people with the same level, you know, 117 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,600 really good digital skills, but also, you know, what you're talking about in terms of that student perspective. 118 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,710 But like you're saying, what you bring that to that as a doctoral 119 00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:59,520 Graduate is that extra dimension of understanding, research, but understanding, teaching and pedagogy in a different way. 120 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,770 And I think, you know, quite often when we see things like GBPs or graduate schemes, 121 00:13:04,770 --> 00:13:09,270 we assume that they're aimed at undergraduates and perhaps some of the language. 122 00:13:09,270 --> 00:13:12,900 And then the way in which they're written does kind of reinforce that. 123 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:18,270 But actually, it doesn't mean they're not applicable to PGRs and that actually PGRs, you know. 124 00:13:18,270 --> 00:13:25,560 Or doctoral graduates will potentially have the opportunity and the roles to to do more and to go further. 125 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:32,880 Because because of how that much further along they are in their academic career. 126 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,920 The other thing that I wanted to pick up on is why I was be interested in what you're 127 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:43,120 saying about kind of the management side and the strategy side of being involved in that. 128 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,950 And I wondered if you could say something about kind of what a bit more about what you valued, about learning, I guess, 129 00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:53,910 about the more administrative or managerial side of the university, 130 00:13:53,910 --> 00:14:00,600 which you don't get as much of an exposure to what you're doing, a research degree. 131 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:09,780 Yeah, I. So for me, as I say, it's it's great to have the insight into kind of the structure of the institution, 132 00:14:09,780 --> 00:14:16,380 obviously, to meet these different people as well and to learn from them and their expertise. 133 00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:22,170 And it's yeah, it's really kind of opened up so many opportunities that we we just hadn't anticipated. 134 00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:26,370 Lots of professional development opportunities. 135 00:14:26,370 --> 00:14:35,250 And I think it's worth noting that that is something that, first of all, you just don't really have time for when you're doing a casual teaching post, 136 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:40,410 because as anybody who has done that will know, even if you're only doing about four. 137 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:44,370 hours teaching a week as an early career academic or researcher. 138 00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:50,280 You're coming into that institution from outside. You're basically going to have a lot of work dumped on you. 139 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:57,900 And because you're kind of coming in and you probably don't have much notice when you start the role. 140 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:03,780 For me, it was essentially a full time job, even though I was only teaching about four hours a week each time. 141 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:09,240 Because if you're producing lectures, etc., it's just an enormous amount of work. 142 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,530 And so you don't really have time to kind of engage in any professional opportunities, 143 00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:21,900 personal development opportunities that might be offered by the institution. But with this role, it's something that has been very much integrated. 144 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:31,020 So we've been able to kind of continually undertake different kinds of training for different digital tools. 145 00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:35,190 We've also been able to attend the things like the eduexe sessions, 146 00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:42,780 where we're kind of sharing best practise across the university, finding out how people do things in different departments, 147 00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:52,620 different colleges, and seeing what we can kind of take from not to to implement in the College of Medicine and Health and in PGT where we're based. 148 00:15:52,620 --> 00:16:01,590 So I think all of that does feed into our kind of connection and on what we can pass on to people in kind of more senior roles. 149 00:16:01,590 --> 00:16:04,860 And I work with managers in the college. 150 00:16:04,860 --> 00:16:15,240 We work very closely with our programme director for PGT, but also with the team director of Quality and Teaching. 151 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:23,670 And so we got that's another nice kind of aspect of the role, is that people are interested in actually listening to our ideas. 152 00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:31,110 And again, coming back to all kind of experience as teachers ourselves, having that side of things, 153 00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:39,270 and also kind of new understanding of kind of what digital tools are out there and the the processes and functions of ELE 154 00:16:39,270 --> 00:16:49,510 It's sort of given us of a good ability to see what might potentially work and what we can take, what we can take forward and kind of. 155 00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:56,190 Yeah, pass on to people like the director of teaching quality and really feel like you're actually 156 00:16:56,190 --> 00:17:03,270 making a difference in kind of shaping our path forward in terms of online learning. 157 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:04,890 So, yeah, I again, 158 00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:12,990 it's it's lovely to be trusted to the extent that we are and kind of valued that much really by senior people in the university, I would say. 159 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:18,960 And just to be kind of taken seriously and be, you know, have the opportunity to actually input ideas as well. 160 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,520 And I think that applies not just to us as graduate as postgraduates. 161 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:29,340 I think it really does apply to the undergraduates, too. And, you know, we're working within multiple teams. 162 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:37,180 We're working with technology enhanced learning where we're often asked for our views on certain things and how we work. 163 00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:43,650 And so, yeah, it's great really to be I suppose the role is so new. 164 00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:47,130 We've we've actually had to establish the way that we work. 165 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:52,800 And Heather and I have had to kind of really specifically define what we do, how we do things in PGT 166 00:17:52,800 --> 00:18:00,480 even down to kind of, you know, the spreadsheet that we use and and the day to day running of things. 167 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:08,790 But also, I think DLDs as a whole seem to be, you know, very much included in actually. 168 00:18:08,790 --> 00:18:13,080 Trying to define and determine what happens next, which is quite nice. 169 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:21,180 Yeah. Now, I was thinking in terms of strategy, as you were saying, it's been really interesting to be part of larger strategy talks, 170 00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:27,870 but also on just the scale of us working with PGT programmes for the College of Medicine and Health. 171 00:18:27,870 --> 00:18:32,340 Being able to strategize what we want to do with the year that we have, 172 00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:37,950 or at least the year that we know we definitely have in this role and being able to think, 173 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:43,410 okay, you know, what are we going to prioritise for term one? What do we want our modules to look like? 174 00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:50,610 What sorts of digital tools do we want to emphasise or demonstrate for the module leads? 175 00:18:50,610 --> 00:18:53,970 Then what do we want to improve on for term two? How are we going to go about that? 176 00:18:53,970 --> 00:19:01,620 So we've been able to do things like run college, PGT, specific student surveys, 177 00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:11,580 staff surveys and run some demonstration meetings to kind of go through the sorts of things that we think will improve courses. 178 00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:18,210 So just on that smaller scale strategy as well, it's been really interesting to kind of have a handle on that. 179 00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:19,960 And as Philippa said 180 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:28,890 it's kind of shape the trajectory of what we're doing with the year to make things better during pandemic times with online teaching, 181 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:35,700 but also think about what will improve things in the long term going forward to potential blended learning. 182 00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:44,900 Because I think improving these courses in their online offering is still going to help when eventually some of it is move back into the classroom. 183 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:51,980 Yeah. I think all of that's really important. And one of the couple of things I want to pick up out of that is really interesting 184 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:56,490 to hear you talk about the unique opportunity that you've had within these roles 185 00:19:56,490 --> 00:19:59,970 for professional development and academic professional development that you wouldn't 186 00:19:59,970 --> 00:20:05,560 necessarily have the time or scope for if you were just doing a few hours teaching. 187 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:13,320 So I wondered if we could talk a little bit more about about what those opportunities might be, but also kind of in tandem with that. 188 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:21,150 What? We've talked a lot about all the different experiences you're having, and I can absolutely see how all of these would be really, 189 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:25,340 really beneficial in thinking about moving forward with an academic career. 190 00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:29,220 But I wondered if you could say a little bit about. 191 00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:36,030 From your perspective about what you feel like you're going to really strongly take forward from the role. 192 00:20:36,030 --> 00:20:41,640 The roles that you're doing now and the experiences you're having now into applying for academic jobs. 193 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,260 So I know there are two things that we can really do with professional development first. 194 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:56,340 Sure. And so with both. Well, we both came into this job with the associate fellow of the Higher Education Academy as our, 195 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:59,820 you know, professional framework teaching qualification. 196 00:20:59,820 --> 00:21:08,100 And one of the really tangible things to come out of this year is we're using our experience now in our supporting, 197 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:15,150 teaching and quality enhancing role to go for the fellow of the Higher Education Academy. 198 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:17,910 We've got our applications together. Fingers crossed. 199 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:26,310 But, you know, if we can gain that, that's a really good, solid thing that we can use in our applications for other jobs going forward. 200 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:34,440 But just as employees of Exeter, we've had the opportunity to go to the full suite of professional development workshops, 201 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,780 especially with everything being online. It's been really good to be able to say, okay, 202 00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:48,300 I'd like to go to a CVs workshop to an interviews workshop to all these different things, wellbeing workshops. 203 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:52,470 It's it's it's part of our role, part of our job. 204 00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:58,660 You know, we have to go through personal development reviews and that sort of thing. 205 00:21:58,660 --> 00:22:05,970 So so it's been really interesting having the opportunity to go to these sorts of workshops and professional development opportunities, 206 00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:16,110 but also to have them as part of the structure of what's the university wants us to do with our with our time and with our progression as well. 207 00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:21,030 And I guess I would just add to that that I think, well, first of all, 208 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:28,830 the role itself and the kind of modules that we are assisting with because they are postgraduate courses, 209 00:22:28,830 --> 00:22:37,290 but also because they are kind of some of them are focussed very specifically on education and clinical education. 210 00:22:37,290 --> 00:22:43,230 How you effectively teach clinical practises to, you know, 211 00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:48,810 maybe GPs who are taking an extra professional development course or something like that. 212 00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:58,950 So we have actually assisted in the development of and being present for the delivery of clinical education modules, 213 00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:04,680 modules on digital teaching, which was really helpful. 214 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:13,470 And so all of that is just so useful. We can actually learn not just from the courses, but from the module leads delivering most courses. 215 00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:19,590 We were invited to be actually we were invited to kind of be part of the teaching, 216 00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:28,200 the digital teaching module and to sort of share our own experiences with digital tools and that kind of thing. 217 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,920 And it was just great to learn from the students as well with that, to be honest. I mean, 218 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,060 I wish that we'd actually recorded some of the fantastic presentations because they had the opportunity 219 00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:41,940 to have a play around with some of the digital tools and experiment what you could use them for. 220 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:49,020 And they were just simply fantastic things on improving the deliver the training for the COVID vaccine and all sorts of wonderful things 221 00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:59,100 that are going to make such a difference in the world and really make me proud to be supporting these these healthcare students. 222 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:08,820 But with the FHEA more specifically, it's really helped me reflect on what I'm actually getting out of this role. 223 00:24:08,820 --> 00:24:17,640 So all of the stuff that we do with the quality assurance of module's, the continual evaluation of our practise, 224 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:25,470 how successful things have been, the regular meetings with the project enhance leadership team and the college. 225 00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:31,830 And that's where we get to actually kind of talk to academics that are sort of delivering the teaching. 226 00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:37,320 And we talk through any arising problems and we kind of troubleshoot and continually evaluate. 227 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,460 And all of that has been just great to write about on my application, really, 228 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:52,040 because it's it's really helping me reflect on my own practise as somebody who's supporting teaching and who's interested in kind of teaching myself. 229 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,290 So we kind of figured we'd kind of unintentionally ended up sort of hitting, you know, 230 00:24:57,290 --> 00:25:01,610 most of the criteria just just through kind of what we're doing on a daily basis. 231 00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:09,520 And so it's been great to actually have that, to really take the time to reflect on exactly what we're getting out of the role. 232 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,620 So in terms of professional development, I'd say it's it's actually exceeded my expectations, really. 233 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:21,730 And and as Heather says, if we can get this qualification at the end of it, then, you know, it's been a really fantastic stepping stone. 234 00:25:21,730 --> 00:25:29,260 And I think that a lot of roles that I've seen advertised have actually wanted somebody who 235 00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:35,380 knows about digital technology or is interested in using digital technology in their teaching, 236 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:41,740 because, I mean, I think this is going to be kind of part of the future. It's going to be had to stay really and in whatever form it eventually takes. 237 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:47,050 So, yeah, it's it's been a really great opportunity, 238 00:25:47,050 --> 00:25:55,060 even though we've been working in a very different field in medicine and health and we're both from English. 239 00:25:55,060 --> 00:25:59,730 There has been a lot of kind of transferable skills that we can bring to this role. 240 00:25:59,730 --> 00:26:00,640 That's really brilliant. 241 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:08,410 And I think pulling out some of those things like the FHEA, which is really going to set you apart in applying for those academic roles, 242 00:26:08,410 --> 00:26:13,000 because it's it's rare that PGRs when they're doing their research. 243 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,770 are going to have the opportunity to engage in that in that level of teaching practise and the opportunity for that level of reflection as well. 244 00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:32,010 That's needed to achieve that status. So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about how that how this kind of fits in and in. 245 00:26:32,010 --> 00:26:39,420 The longer kind of career go to work in academia and what specifically things like the FHEA that you think that 246 00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:46,140 you want to take forward and that you feel are really going to help you with those academic job applications? 247 00:26:46,140 --> 00:26:55,380 I think for me, it's it's at least understanding the real significance of evaluation and evaluating processes. 248 00:26:55,380 --> 00:27:04,810 And this is something that the university has had to do on a huge scale, shifting, you know, to so much online. 249 00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:10,170 And and basically, you know, transforming digitally. 250 00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:18,570 So I think the fact that we've kind of been forced into this situation where we're constantly having the discussions, is this working? 251 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:25,640 Is this effective? What can we do better for me? I think that is something I would actually like to take forward. 252 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,230 You know, whatever happens, 253 00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:38,610 I think even if we are doing a lot more face to face teaching eventually or supporting much more kind of blended approaches, 254 00:27:38,610 --> 00:27:49,050 I just think it's it's something that perhaps wasn't emphasised enough before was this sort of continual evaluation of processes, 255 00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:57,150 even if you've been doing it for years. You know, it's the opportunity to actually share best practise and innovate, really. 256 00:27:57,150 --> 00:28:07,230 And and just I think the value of that sort of collaborative approach to teaching is maybe something that we've not fully appreciated before. 257 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:13,440 And the point of the pandemic has kind of pushed us into confronting really. 258 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,470 And I personally feel that that's something we could really take forward. 259 00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:26,070 And I would like to adopt in my in my practise or wherever I end up, even if I'm if I'm here, if I end up here. 260 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:32,940 I just think that's something that's so valuable. And, yeah, it's it's a focus on the process itself. 261 00:28:32,940 --> 00:28:37,230 The process of teaching. And and I think that includes our students, too. 262 00:28:37,230 --> 00:28:41,250 So, you know that they are kind of active collaborators in this process. 263 00:28:41,250 --> 00:28:52,330 I think that there's just so much to learn from the approach we've actually taken with Project Enhance and the benefits of that for, 264 00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:57,700 you know, the quality of learning as well and what the students can get out of it. 265 00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:02,430 And that's something I'm quite excited about. I'd like to do more with. 266 00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:05,700 Definitely. I completely agree. 267 00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:15,750 In terms of first applying for teaching posts in the future, we've now gained experience of the side of teaching that we didn't. 268 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:19,980 Not that we didn't engage with before, but that weren't necessarily our top priority. 269 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:25,980 When, you know, we need to prep for our seminars, go and teach them to have a set number of hours to do everything. 270 00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:33,750 Having this kind of reflective role and thinking about all the kind of other things that go into 271 00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:39,820 preparing a really good module and really good contact session has been really useful for that. 272 00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:45,150 But I guess the other thing for me is that I always knew there would be, you know, 273 00:29:45,150 --> 00:29:52,980 a bit of a gap between finishing my PhD and hopefully getting some sort of academic role. 274 00:29:52,980 --> 00:29:59,550 And I did think, you know, I'll apply for a job in professional services or maybe I'll get some casual teaching 275 00:29:59,550 --> 00:30:06,880 contracts and hopefully I'll be doing something linked to the university while I'm kind of, 276 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,200 you know, working on a book proposal, working on more articles, 277 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:17,100 gaining all those other sorts of research experience that I would need to get a postdoc or an academic post. 278 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:22,950 And I guess this role has just given us a little bit of security and bought us 279 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:29,460 a little bit of time to be doing those things and thinking about our research. 280 00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:31,830 I mean, not not to say that it hasn't been difficult. 281 00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:40,320 I think, you know, both me and Philippa feel that it's really tiring to be sat at your laptop all day doing this sort of work and then to think, 282 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,330 okay, I need to turn to that to the article proposal that I'm working on. 283 00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:55,630 But that's the other side of this is a lot of post PhD283 00:30:45,330 -->282 00:30:40,320 -->281 00:30:31,830 -->280 00:30:29,460 -->279 00:30:22,950 -->278 00:30:17,100 -->277 00:30:10,200 -->276 00:30:06,880 -->275 00:29:59,550 -->274 00:29:52,980 -->273 00:29:45,150 -->272 00:29:39,820 -->271 00:29:33,750 -->270 00:29:25,980 -->269 00:29:19,980 -->268 00:29:15,750 -->267 00:29:05,700 -->266 00:29:02,430 -->265 00:28:57,700 -->264 00:28:52,330 -->263 00:28:41,250 -->262 00:28:37,230 -->261 00:28:32,940 -->260 00:28:26,070 -->259 00:28:16,470 -->258 00:28:13,440 -->257 00:28:07,230 -->256 00:27:57,150 -->255 00:27:49,050 -->254 00:27:38,610 -->253 00:27:28,230 -->252 00:27:25,640 -->251 00:27:18,570 -->250 00:27:10,170 -->249 00:27:04,810 -->248 00:26:55,380 -->247 00:26:46,140 -->246 00:26:39,420 -->245 00:26:32,010 -->244 00:26:19,770 -->243 00:26:13,000 -->242 00:26:08,410 -->241 00:26:00,640 -->240 00:25:59,730 -->239 00:25:55,060 -->238 00:25:47,050 -->237 00:25:41,740 -->236 00:25:35,380 -->235 00:25:29,260 -->234 00:25:21,730 -->233 00:25:14,620 -->232 00:25:09,520 -->231 00:25:01,610 -->230 00:24:57,290 -->229 00:24:52,040 -->228 00:24:41,460 -->227 00:24:37,320 -->226 00:24:31,830 -->225 00:24:25,470 -->224 00:24:17,640 -->223 00:24:08,820 -->222 00:23:59,100 -->221 00:23:49,020 -->220 00:23:41,940 -->219 00:23:37,060 -->218 00:23:31,920 -->217 00:23:28,200 -->216 00:23:19,590 -->215 00:23:13,470 -->214 00:23:04,680 -->213 00:22:58,950 -->212 00:22:48,810 -->211 00:22:43,230 -->210 00:22:37,290 -->209 00:22:28,830 -->208 00:22:21,030 -->207 00:22:16,110 -->206 00:22:05,970 -->205 00:21:58,660 -->204 00:21:52,470 -->203 00:21:48,300 -->202 00:21:39,780 -->201 00:21:34,440 -->200 00:21:26,310 -->199 00:21:17,910 -->198 00:21:15,150 -->197 00:21:08,100 -->196 00:20:59,820 -->195 00:20:56,340 -->194 00:20:46,260 -->193 00:20:41,640 -->192 00:20:36,030 -->191 00:20:29,220 -->190 00:20:25,340 -->189 00:20:21,150 -->188 00:20:13,320 -->187 00:20:05,560 -->186 00:19:59,970 -->185 00:19:56,490 -->184 00:19:51,980 -->183 00:19:44,900 -->182 00:19:35,700 -->181 00:19:28,890 -->180 00:19:19,960 -->179 00:19:18,210 -->178 00:19:11,580 -->177 00:19:01,620 -->176 00:18:53,970 -->175 00:18:50,610 -->174 00:18:43,410 -->173 00:18:37,950 -->172 00:18:32,340 -->171 00:18:27,870 -->170 00:18:21,180 -->169 00:18:13,080 -->168 00:18:08,790 -->167 00:18:00,480 -->166 00:17:52,800 -->165 00:17:47,130 -->164 00:17:43,650 -->163 00:17:37,180 -->162 00:17:29,340 -->161 00:17:23,520 -->160 00:17:18,960 -->159 00:17:12,990 -->158 00:17:04,890 -->157 00:17:03,270 -->156 00:16:56,190 -->155 00:16:49,510 -->154 00:16:39,270 -->153 00:16:31,110 -->152 00:16:23,670 -->151 00:16:15,240 -->150 00:16:04,860 -->149 00:16:01,590 -->148 00:15:52,620 -->147 00:15:42,780 -->146 00:15:35,190 -->145 00:15:31,020 -->144 00:15:21,900 -->143 00:15:13,530 -->142 00:15:09,240 -->141 00:15:03,780 -->140 00:14:57,900 -->139 00:14:50,280 -->138 00:14:44,370 -->137 00:14:40,410 -->136 00:14:35,250 -->135 00:14:26,370 -->134 00:14:22,170 -->133 00:14:16,380 -->132 00:14:09,780 -->131 00:14:00,600 -->130 00:13:53,910 -->129 00:13:49,950 -->128 00:13:43,120 -->127 00:13:37,920 -->126 00:13:32,880 -->125 00:13:25,560 -->124 00:13:18,270 -->123 00:13:12,900 -->122 00:13:09,270 -->121 00:13:04,770 -->120 00:12:59,520 -->119 00:12:51,710 -->118 00:12:48,600 -->117 00:12:43,680 -->116 00:12:36,600 -->115 00:12:26,430 -->114 00:12:21,510 -->113 00:12:12,420 -->112 00:12:08,800 -->111 00:12:03,840 -->110 00:11:57,330 -->109 00:11:50,220 -->108 00:11:41,790 -->107 00:11:36,130 -->106 00:11:29,070 -->105 00:11:19,680 -->104 00:11:14,970 -->103 00:11:10,170 -->102 00:11:02,310 -->101 00:10:53,730 -->100 00:10:53,460 -->99 00:10:43,650 -->98 00:10:36,660 -->97 00:10:34,650 -->96 00:10:26,460 -->95 00:10:21,680 -->94 00:10:17,380 -->93 00:10:05,300 -->92 00:09:56,540 -->91 00:09:50,870 -->90 00:09:45,290 -->89 00:09:40,550 -->88 00:09:35,850 -->87 00:09:29,120 -->86 00:09:24,530 -->85 00:09:16,310 -->84 00:09:10,210 -->83 00:09:03,410 -->82 00:08:56,090 -->81 00:08:53,900 -->80 00:08:48,170 -->79 00:08:40,400 -->78 00:08:32,900 -->77 00:08:26,720 -->76 00:08:17,600 -->75 00:08:09,590 -->74 00:08:01,910 -->73 00:07:53,390 -->72 00:07:50,150 -->71 00:07:41,960 -->70 00:07:34,870 -->69 00:07:25,490 -->68 00:07:24,140 -->67 00:07:19,820 -->66 00:07:16,340 -->65 00:07:08,180 -->64 00:07:03,740 -->63 00:06:58,620 -->62 00:06:50,540 -->61 00:06:41,990 -->60 00:06:33,650 -->59 00:06:26,960 -->58 00:06:21,560 -->57 00:06:16,490 -->56 00:06:10,820 -->55 00:06:06,470 -->54 00:06:01,040 -->53 00:05:54,770 -->52 00:05:47,380 -->51 00:05:39,400 -->50 00:05:34,480 -->49 00:05:26,400 -->48 00:05:17,400 -->47 00:05:14,130 -->46 00:05:09,180 -->45 00:05:00,000 -->44 00:04:52,470 -->43 00:04:46,860 -->42 00:04:39,660 -->41 00:04:31,350 -->40 00:04:25,950 -->39 00:04:16,650 -->38 00:04:07,560 -->37 00:04:00,360 -->36 00:03:49,230 -->35 00:03:47,040 -->34 00:03:41,700 -->33 00:03:36,780 -->32 00:03:27,330 -->31 00:03:22,950 -->30 00:03:18,300 -->29 00:03:13,680 -->28 00:03:04,650 -->27 00:03:02,610 -->26 00:02:54,390 -->25 00:02:47,320 -->24 00:02:41,730 -->23 00:02:35,670 -->22 00:02:30,110 -->21 00:02:22,560 -->20 00:02:17,100 -->19 00:02:10,680 -->18 00:02:04,650 -->17 00:01:58,590 -->16 00:01:52,600 -->15 00:01:47,800 -->14 00:01:41,350 -->13 00:01:34,090 -->12 00:01:26,970 -->11 00:01:20,610 -->10 00:01:10,860 -->9 00:01:02,880 -->8 00:00:58,320 -->7 00:00:50,880 -->6 00:00:44,190 -->5 00:00:38,670 -->4 00:00:31,560 -->3 00:00:28,320 -->2 00:00:23,400 -->1 00:00:10,890 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Charlotte Chivers, who secured a Research Assistant post at the University of Gloucestershire during COVID-19. Charlotte has started her role at the University of Gloucestershire whilst finishing writing up her PhD.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:31,000 Hello and welcome to beyond your research degree. It's Kelly Preece here, and I'm really excited to be bringing you the second in a special series that 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:38,000 we're doing for Beyond Your Research Degree about securing jobs during Covid 19. 4 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:43,000 So last time I talked to Tomir about securing a job with an NGO. 5 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,000 And today I'm gonna be talking to Charlotte Chivers in a very similar position to Timur, 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:55,000 writing up herPhD and starting a new job, but this time as a postdoctoral research associate. 7 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,000 So we normally on Beyond your Research degree, we focus on non-academic careers. 8 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000 But given the real challenges our PGRs are facing at the moment, 9 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:10,000 it seemed really pertinent to talk about securing academic and research jobs as well. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Yeah, hi. So I'm Charlotte Chivers and I have been doing my PhD at the University of Exeter since twenty seventeen. 11 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:26,000 My research is within the Centre for Rural Policy Research. 12 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:37,000 So it's a social science. PhD and I have been exploring the efficacy of agriculture advice surrounding diffused water pollution. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:47,000 So I have now finished a draft of my entire thesis and congratulations. 14 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,000 And I'm making revisions based on my supervisor's comments at this stage. 15 00:01:52,000 --> 00:02:00,000 However, back in September, I started a research position at the University of Gloucestershire. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,000 So I now work in the Countryside and Community Research Institute. 17 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:12,000 So I've been juggling, working full time and finishing off my PhD. 18 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:18,000 And again, I'm working in social science, but mostly looking at environmental stuff. 19 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:25,000 So I now work on two big EU projects. One is called Soil Care, which it's soil health in agriculture. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:32,000 And the other is called Spint and we are looking at pesticides in agriculture. 21 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:38,000 That's brilliant. Thank you. So there's a number of lots of different things to pick up on within that. 22 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,000 But I think so firstly. So if we can go back to September last year. So was it September you started the job? 23 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,000 Yes. I started in September. So when when did you when did you apply? 24 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:55,000 What were the sort of timescales? So I applied in June last year. 25 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:07,000 OK, yeah. So. So I wasn't. Sorry. No i was just going to say so this is so all of the application process, everything, it's all happened during COVID. 26 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Yes. Yes. OK. So I. 27 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,000 Let's start at the beginning of that process that I'm thinking about, how it might have been affected by it. 28 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,000 So how? First of all, how did you how did you find this role? 29 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,000 So I had sort of had my eye on the centre 30 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:32,000 I now work for for the last couple of years and I recognised that it would potentially be a good fit for me. 31 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:38,000 So I kept my eye on their website and I attended one of our events. 32 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:45,000 So they have a annual winter school, which meant that I had the opportunity to meet some of the academics working there. 33 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,000 And from then on, then I kind of just kept my eye out for jobs. 34 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,000 And although it was quite early for me to apply for a job because I still had, you know, 35 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:00,000 my PhDi ongoing, I wanted to make sure I didn't miss out on an opportunity. 36 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,000 As obviously, you know, academia is competitive. So I had to kind of go for it. 37 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:09,000 When when a job came along. So, yeah, absolutely. 38 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And I think, you know, it is that when your when you're targeting particular departments or organisations, 39 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:24,000 if you're thinking outside academia that are a really good fit for your passion, but also your kind of knowledge and skills. 40 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 It is sometimes having to kind of make that compromise going okay. 41 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:36,000 It's not the ideal time. But is this opportunity likely to come up in six months when it is the ideal time? 42 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Can you talk a little bit about the. Application process, particularly thinking about what might have been different about it because of the, 43 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:52,000 you know, the all of the restrictions that we've had in the UK for the past year or so. 44 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Yeah. So in terms of actually applying for the job, it was it was the same essentially because, 45 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:04,000 you know, I had to submit an application form and a CV online. And so that was quite normal, actually. 46 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:16,000 And that the first stage where it was quite different is that my interview had to be held online with a panel of three professors, 47 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:24,000 which was quite interesting. You know, I had to get myself into the mindset of an interview even though I was starting my apartment. 48 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:30,000 So that day that I just made sure that I got dressed up as if I was going to an interview. 49 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:38,000 And I just tried to get myself in that mindset. But it was quite strange having a sort of online interview. 50 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:47,000 But luckily for panellists were lovely, really supportive. So, you know, I felt relatively at ease despite it being an online interview. 51 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Yeah. And I think you've picked up on a couple of really important things. 52 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,000 They're about actually kind of that sense of mindset of how do you put yourself in the frame of mind of performing, 53 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,000 because that's essentially what an interview it is, isn't it? You know, it comes down to it. 54 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:10,000 You're you're kind of performing for the interview panel. And how do you do that when you're kind of in your in your everyday? 55 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Environments, so I think that thing you said about, you know, 56 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:18,000 getting dressed up and doing all of those things like you would do for an interview normally are really important. 57 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Were there any kind of any markedly different things for having the interview online from when you've had interviews face to face? 58 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:34,000 Was there anything kind of. I don't know. Different or challenging? 59 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,000 About doing that way. Yeah, definitely so. 60 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,000 And the thing is, it's because there were four of us on the call. 61 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,000 And you have a lag often when you're online It was incredibly difficult to not interrupt each other. 62 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,000 And and being in an interview, you obviously don't want to interrupt people. 63 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 You want to make sure that you, you know, wait your turn and speak when you can ask the question. 64 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:03,000 But there were a couple of times. So it's quite difficult to know when to talk and when to get a word in. 65 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:09,000 So that's something that was a bit challenging. But again, I think everyone is aware of this. 66 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:16,000 So I didn't I didn't see it as a major issue because I assume everyone is facing the same sort of challenge. 67 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,000 So it was kind of it was kind of okay. Yeah. 68 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:29,000 And were there any kind of any positives, any things that you felt were kind of easier or or or nicer or more relaxed because of the online format? 69 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,000 Yeah, I mean, I personally do prefer in-person meetings because you can build rapport a bit easier. 70 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:40,000 You can make proper eye contact, but not having to travel was quite nice. 71 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,000 I didn't have to worry about being late, unless the Internet had died. 72 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,000 But, you know, in general, our Internet is really strong. 73 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:53,000 So I could just kind of get up in the morning and not think, oh, my gosh, I need to make sure the train isn't late or. 74 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,000 Yeah. So it was quite nice, actually, not having to worry about about that. 75 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:04,000 So, yeah, I'd say that was a benefit. But other than that I'd say I didn't find it dramatically different. 76 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:13,000 You know, it was interviews are Always scary. You know, I think I think either way, it's not it's not the easiest of things to go through. 77 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,000 But, you know, I think having a nice panel really helped. 78 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,000 And, you know, I think just making sure your Internet is working and stuff is really important to you. 79 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,000 But, yeah, I wouldn't say there were any massive positives or necessarily any massive negatives either. 80 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:34,000 It was kind of. Yeah, it was it was different. But it was but it was fine. 81 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:42,000 So can we talk a little bit more about what was involved as part of the application process? 82 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:48,000 So you said that you did an online application form and a CV were that particular things like. 83 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Required as part of the application form. Did you have to do like a personal statement against the job specification or questions? 84 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,000 Upload documents, anything like that? Yeah. 85 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:09,000 So I believe I had to fill in in the application form, I had to refer to how I met the sort of essential and desirable criteria. 86 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:17,000 And as a rule of thumb, what I always do is I actually copy across all of the headings from the job description. 87 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000 And I specifically answer each one. 88 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:28,000 So, you know, and that's always worked quite well for me because it means that the person reading the application can literally see straightaway. 89 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Okay. They've actually tried to answer every single one of these essential and desirable criteria. 90 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:41,000 So I remember specifically doing that, but I don't think it had off the top of my head. 91 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,000 I can't remember having any really sort of specific things that were out of the ordinary. 92 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 It was kind of just an application form. And yeah, your CV, which I obviously tailored for four jobs, 93 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:59,000 I made sure that I prioritise certain things and put things at the top that were really important. 94 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:05,000 So, you know, my publication record and my previous work experience were important for this particular position. 95 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:14,000 So, you know, I just made sure that it was really I make it as easy as possible for us to do application to see, 96 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:21,000 you know, the key things that they need to know about you rather than having it hidden or or further down the page. 97 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:27,000 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a couple of things that you said and that just really useful kind 98 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000 of simple tools like copy and cross the headings of the person specification. 99 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,000 I do that and I don't necessarily use them as headings, but I make sure that, 100 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,000 like with the example I'm giving the examples I have the exact language from the person. 101 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,000 specification. Just say it like you're having all the signals or making it really, really clear. 102 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,000 And so with the interview, was there any preparation you have to do for the interview? 103 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:58,000 Did you have to do task or anything like that? No, I didn't. 104 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,000 I don't think. But I did send across some material in advance. Just off my own bat. 105 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,000 OK. So I, I basically just really wanted this job. 106 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,000 So I probably came across as extremely keen. I think that's fine. 107 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:19,000 So I essentially sent across some examples of my work just to help bolster my application. 108 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:25,000 So part of the role was and so I work on dissemination work package for one of for projects. 109 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,000 So, you know, I don't just do research. I have to help with dissemination and communication. 110 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,000 So I sent across a couple of examples of infographics, ive made, 111 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:41,000 and I think I sent them a podcast and things like that just to show that even though I'm mostly trained in research, 112 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:48,000 I am capable of doing with dissemination side as well, because, you know, it was quite hard to articulate that without providing evidence. 113 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 So I made sure to send that. But it wasn't a prerequisite. 114 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:57,000 They didn't ask for it, but I just felt that it would help them to see that, you know, I'm not just saying I can do it. 115 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:06,000 I have shown them. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as part of the whole job application process, that's to be being proactive. 116 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:14,000 It is so crucial to the whole process. And do your remember what kind of questions they asked you an interview. 117 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:21,000 Oh, my gosh. One of one of the questions I asked was actually where I'd like my career to go. 118 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,000 Which one? Yeah. So and I was quite sort of. 119 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000 And I was like, well, I could just say, oh, I just desperately want. 120 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:35,000 this job forever to try and persuade them to give it to me. But I decided to be honest and actually that really paid off. 121 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,000 So I said, you know, within a few years I'd like to be a research fellow. 122 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:49,000 And when I got offered the job, they said that actually really helped me get the job because they want people to progress and they like ambition, so. 123 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:55,000 Yeah. So I remember they asked me that was. Oh, they asked. 124 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:02,000 They asked questions about my research interests. So, again, you know, I don't want to end up doing research I'm not passionate about. 125 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:11,000 So I was completely honest. You know, I explained that I'm very interested in farm advice and soil health and the environment. 126 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:21,000 And again, you know, it was just lucky that the job I was applying for, you know, happened to be really aligned in my research interests. 127 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,000 They also asked me to talk about. So this is a really common in question. 128 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,000 I think I've had it in every interview I've ever done. They ask what your sort of weakness is. 129 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:38,000 And I always. Yeah, and I always tackle that by giving an example of a weakness. 130 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,000 I may be used to have. 131 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:48,000 And then I explain how I resolved it or how I managed to kind of overcome it or how I'm working to do so so that I don't just say, 132 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:56,000 oh, I'm really bad at this. And then that's it. I make sure to say, you know, I used to really struggle with time management, for example. 133 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:05,000 But since then, I've decided to have to make more lists and to use my calendar more just as an example. 134 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,000 So that's something that I think I've been asked in every interview I've ever had 135 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Yeah. I wondered, so you said that you're working on you've completed a full thesis draft and you're working on feedback from your supervisors. 136 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Is that right? Yes, that's correct. So you started this job in September and to those listening we are currently in February. 137 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:37,000 So with a period of five months you've been working full time and finishing writing up your thesis. 138 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:44,000 So are you technically still registered full time for you for your PhD 139 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 No. No. So, I mean, continuation status. Yeah. 140 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Yeah. So my my funding finished in September. 141 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,000 And then I started my job in September, which was quite nice because, you know, 142 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,000 I couldn't afford to have a gap in and, you know, financially, it's very difficult to to have a gap. 143 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:13,000 So I kind of did need to start. But equally, you know, due to various reasons, due to the pandemic and things, I hadn't quite finished my PhD. 144 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:21,000 So, yeah, I just I just had to go for it really and sort of just make sure I work on the thesis as much as I can. 145 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:27,000 So what I did once I'd settled into this ECRI, which is where I work now, 146 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,000 I took a week of annual leave and just sort of really worked on a thesis because 147 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,000 I find it hard to I can do some work in the evenings on the on the thesis, 148 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,000 but I think it's hard to get into that headspace when you've been working on other research all day. 149 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:49,000 So I decided to use my annual leave up to sort of get the bits of my thesis just finished. 150 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:57,000 I needed to. And then it's been quite nice because I actually handed in my draft to my supervisors 151 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:04,000 in November and then it took three months to get my supervisor comments back in full. 152 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So I essentially just had three months to just work on my job and and other bits, 153 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,000 too, because I seemed to just always have several other bits going on with work. 154 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,000 But yeah, so I've only just got it back a couple of weeks ago. 155 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,000 So I now now hatched a plan. 156 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:31,000 I have now had my full draft back with supervisors comments throughout and I've hatched a very strict plan to make sure that I do submit and that I, 157 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:38,000 you know, have time to sort of make sure I answer all of that comments and proofread and do any final bits. 158 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,000 So, you know, my goal now is to submit at the end of March. 159 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,000 And again, I've had to take another week of annual leave. 160 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:55,000 So next week, I I've completely taken myself away from ECRI work so that I can just focus on the thesis because, 161 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:03,000 you know, I do need to be able to get into that headspace again. And, you know, I am working a lot of evenings and I worked yesterday on it, 162 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000 but I think it's much easier to do it when you have a proper chunk of time to just focus on your PhD 163 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Yeah, that's what I was going to ask is how what's your plan and kind of managing your time. 164 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:23,000 And I know I'm speaking to quite a few people who not necessarily you've kind of started a job early, you know, before they finish their PhD 165 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,000 but people who've been working full time throughout and they've said that, you know, particularly in the write up stage, 166 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:34,000 that's been the way that they've managed it the best is to kind of take a big chunk of time. 167 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,000 And work exclusively on it rather than try and just do it all in evenings and weekends. 168 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:48,000 Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, working full time, I simply don't have the time or energy and I really don't want to burn out. 169 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,000 So overall, I work a lot of evenings. I can't work every evening. 170 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 It's just not sustainable. And and, you know, my new job, I love it. 171 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,000 But it does require me to work quite long hours. 172 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:07,000 So I often actually work in the evenings on my CCRI work. So by the time I can get there, you stay. 173 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:13,000 So, look, well, you know, it's quite late at night. So I do think for blocking out time is the best way forward. 174 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:25,000 Really? Yeah. What was it like starting a job in a new academic department during COVID 175 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:34,000 So it was bizarre, to say the least, because I couldn't meet anyone in person for ages. 176 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,000 I have now met a few people in person. 177 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:43,000 So we had a couple of months where I don't know if they had all these weird tiers and people were starting to go in again. 178 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I went into the office a couple of times and met people. 179 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:54,000 But aside from that, I've I've essentially done the job for almost six months just working from home, which has been odd. 180 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,000 But luckily the centre I work with a really, really lovely. 181 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,000 So they have made a real effort with me. So they have like a morning coffee break. 182 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,000 Twice a week just. And you can just join as you'd like. 183 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:14,000 And it means you get to just have a chat with people. And I've had them send lots of emails. 184 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,000 We even had to what sub-group where we all sort of sat running goals and things. 185 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:24,000 So, you know, it's really helped me build some rapport. And I'm also incredibly lucky. 186 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:32,000 I had already met a few of them, you know, in the past. So I sort of had a little bit of a rapport with them already. 187 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,000 But, you know, I have other friends who started in jobs. So my friend Beth. 188 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,000 She's in the same situation as me. And she hasn't been able to meet anyone. 189 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,000 And I think I think it is difficult. 190 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:53,000 But you have to just almost make that effort to just have a bit of, you know, like talk that you'd have over coffee when you're in the office. 191 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:59,000 You always have to try and do that in meetings a little bit. People obviously really fatigued from Zoom and that 192 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:08,000 We often have a little bit small talk before we get into the nitty gritty of it research just to help us to feel connected. 193 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:14,000 So, yeah. But I'd say my experience has been amazing. Like, I'm incredibly lucky with that, with a sense of I've I've ended up in. 194 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,000 It's really nice. Yeah. And I think the things that you're saying, I mean, because we've been I mean, 195 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000 apart from all of the different things that the difficulty is we've generally 196 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:30,000 been in this situation for so long that actually organisations and ah and, 197 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:36,000 you know, employees within it getting much better at kind of creating those opportunities for that more informal. 198 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000 But community building, I think. 199 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:46,000 So, I mean, those kind of opportunities for people to talk and chat in a way that's not about work to sort of finish up. 200 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:55,000 What advice would you give to someone who's looking at applying for kind of postdocs sort of research jobs at the moment during the pandemic? 201 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Is there anything that you kind of wish somebody had told you or anything you've learnt from the process that you think, 202 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:07,000 yeah, people need to know this? Yeah, so I'd say just when you're applying. 203 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Just try to stay optimistic. I know it can be really difficult, especially if you have, you know, some unsuccessful applications go through it. 204 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000 It can't be quite demeaning. But just keep your chin up. 205 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000 Just keep going. And always just have confidence in yourself and your skills that you've developed in your PhD 206 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,000 And I'd say also make sure that you show other people your applications and CVs 207 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:39,000 So even if it's, you know, peers or anyone who could maybe take a look at it, you know, through a different lens and say, 208 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:46,000 oh, actually this skill here is really useful for this criteria for looking for why haven't you suggested that? 209 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000 So, you know, I think it's really important to keep talking. 210 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,000 And equally, if you're starting to feel, you know, down that you haven't got a position yet. 211 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,000 Just just keep talking to people. And in the meantime, just keep developing developing yourself. 212 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000 So if there's things you could do that would both to application, for example, you know, 213 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:14,000 completing your HEZ application or, you know, making a podcast or whatever it is that might help you to get that job. 214 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,000 I would I would just, you know, keep keep trying to do that. 215 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:29,000 And okay, so if you if you get to interview stage and I would say just be prepared, you know, have notes by the side of you, maybe have a mock interview. 216 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,000 So I always ask my partner to go through some potential questions. 217 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:41,000 And he he's not in academia. He's got you know, he wouldn't really have a clue what I'm going to be asked, 218 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,000 but he knows that I'll be asked about my weaknesses and other things like that. 219 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,000 So whoever it is you're living with, if you're living with anyone or have a Zoom call 220 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Just get people to help you, you know, practise for an interview, 221 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:59,000 because it may be that if you've done a PhD, you may not have been interviewed in free for years. 222 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,000 So it's almost like a completely new thing to go through again. 223 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,000 So I think just making sure that you're really prepared for that. 224 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:14,000 I always find reading blogs useful on how to respond to certain questions and just, you know, make sure, you know, 225 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:22,000 the job description as well as you possibly can have your CV and stuff open during your interview so that you can have a look. 226 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:29,000 I'd recommend printouts, though, because you don't want to be seen to be clicking about when you're in your Zoom call because it looks unprofessional. 227 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,000 I'd say like taking about I wouldn't do it personally. 228 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,000 I just have notes by the side of me so I can refer to those if needed. 229 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:47,000 And aside from that, I mean, yeah, my main task is just to stay as optimistic as you can and to look after yourself while you're applying for jobs. 230 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:53,000 Thanks so much to Charlotte for sharing her experience with me. I think it's really helpful to know. 231 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Actually, all of these processes are still the same and these opportunities are still out there. 232 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:04,000 Even during COVID 19. And that's it for this episode. 233 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:18,585 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Timur Jack-Kadıoğlu, who secured a job as Technical Officer - Conservation, Livelihoods & Governance at Fauna & Flora International during COVID-19. Timur had started his role at Fauna & Flora International whilst finishing writing up his PhD.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,550 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,550 --> 00:00:28,410 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast. 3 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:32,160 Now, we know that there's a lot of anxiety at the moment about what it means to secure 4 00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:37,560 a job and specifically a non-academic job during the COVID 19 pandemic. 5 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:45,430 Everything has been turned upside down. The experiences we get, how we do our research and how we apply for jobs. 6 00:00:45,430 --> 00:00:51,000 So to answer that, we are talking to some of our researchers who have got new jobs during the 7 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,250 COVID 19 pandemic and talk to them about how they found those roles. 8 00:00:56,250 --> 00:01:03,240 The process of applying and in some cases, what it's like to start a new job during a global pandemic. 9 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:10,200 So without further ado, here's the first in our series of podcasts on Moving Beyond Your Research Degree and a global pandemic. 10 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,820 Timur are you happy to introduce yourself? I sure am. 11 00:01:14,820 --> 00:01:25,710 My name's Timur Jack-Kadioglu I started my PhD with University of Exeter would have been February 2018 12 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:29,730 I'm based with the European Centre for Environment and Human Health. 13 00:01:29,730 --> 00:01:32,080 Down in Cornwall. 14 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:40,670 My PhD is working on a project called Blue Communities and it's a interdisciplinary programme that involves various departments. 15 00:01:40,670 --> 00:01:45,930 at Exeter While also working with other academic institutions in the UK, 16 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:54,540 some NGOs and also academic partners in Southeast Asia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam. 17 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:59,060 I guess so I would identify as a Marine. Social scientists. 18 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:05,100 My work is about the marine environment. But focussing on the social science aspects. 19 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:12,290 And for my PhD. I spent time in the Philippines on the island of Palawan. 20 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:19,610 My research was kind of looking at the relationships between livelihoods and governance. 21 00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:25,460 And especially looking at power relations and power dynamics and looking at trade offs and equity. 22 00:02:25,460 --> 00:02:33,710 Who the winners and losers are, so to speak, in terms of coastal development and conservation processes. 23 00:02:33,710 --> 00:02:41,360 Wow. Yeah. So what we're going to talk about today is actually securing a non-academic job, 24 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:48,550 but particularly securing a non-academic job during the time of COVID 19. 25 00:02:48,550 --> 00:02:56,030 And the additional challenges that bring say. Could you tell us a little bit about the job you're going on to? 26 00:02:56,030 --> 00:03:02,380 Sure. So I started a job in November of twenty twenty. 27 00:03:02,380 --> 00:03:08,890 So I originally I still have have time in my PhD and I'm still writing up my PhD, 28 00:03:08,890 --> 00:03:14,020 but my new employer's allowed me to originally start part time for November and December. 29 00:03:14,020 --> 00:03:17,620 So I still had two days a week working on the PhD 30 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:27,880 And I joined the Conservation, Livelihood's and Governance team of the UK based NGO, Fauna and Flora International. 31 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:34,150 So they work with they have various regional teams in around the world. 32 00:03:34,150 --> 00:03:40,300 But their main model is working with small local partner organisations. 33 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:40,630 And yeah, 34 00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:51,490 my my role with them is providing technical inputs on livelihoods and governance related aspects of conservation and natural resource management. 35 00:03:51,490 --> 00:03:56,160 And as I said, my my PhD is very much on that on that topic. 36 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,850 And I happen to see the job ad posted on LinkedIn. 37 00:04:00,850 --> 00:04:04,780 I think it was in September. Yes. 38 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:11,890 September time. And it is one of those things where ideally, if this job came up six months later, that would have been perfect. 39 00:04:11,890 --> 00:04:22,870 But it was almost it was too good an opportunity to miss, given the relevance to the relevance to what I did in my PhD 40 00:04:22,870 --> 00:04:31,390 So actually, the application process is quite I got invited to an interview when I was on the way up to Scotland for a camping trip. 41 00:04:31,390 --> 00:04:36,070 And they offered the interview on a day when I was supposed to be in the back end of nowhere. 42 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:41,050 So there was some last minute rearranging of plans to be able to accommodate it. 43 00:04:41,050 --> 00:04:47,950 But, yeah, I'm really glad I did end up doing that because I ended up getting the job. 44 00:04:47,950 --> 00:04:54,970 I think I was interested to hear you say that you found the job on linked in. 45 00:04:54,970 --> 00:04:59,590 So was it an advert that the company had posted. 46 00:04:59,590 --> 00:05:03,670 Were you following the company because you were interested in? Like, how. How did you get to see it? 47 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:11,590 Basically, yes. As I said, it's an organisation I've really quite admired for it for a while. 48 00:05:11,590 --> 00:05:18,990 So I was following them on LinkedIn. And I saw that the job, that they posted the job on there and. 49 00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:24,110 It. Yeah, it was kind of advertised. I mean, I almost scrolled right past it. 50 00:05:24,110 --> 00:05:27,640 I mean, it just it's kind of just it was the livelihood's in governance, 51 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:33,570 but it kind of caught my eyes when I looked at it and I kind of ummed and ahhed about whether or not to apply for it. 52 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:42,340 And like I said, the timing could have been a bit better as I'm still in I am still in the process of writing up my PhD 53 00:05:42,340 --> 00:05:46,270 But I think what really. Yeah. 54 00:05:46,270 --> 00:05:55,180 I think that what really went through my mind was needing to be just needing to be pragmatic with the difficult times that we're in. 55 00:05:55,180 --> 00:05:59,310 And especially on the I was coming towards the end of my PhD, 56 00:05:59,310 --> 00:06:11,230 this was starting to get a little bit concerned about the economic fallout of of the of the pandemic. 57 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:14,840 And this this is a permanent contract. So. 58 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:20,050 Well, I would probably let's be honest, I probably would have applied for anyway if it if it wasn't for the pandemic. 59 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:22,810 But that just really. Yeah. 60 00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:32,230 It just really gave that that just happened, realising that I really needed to be pragmatic and make the most of what opportunities are available. 61 00:06:32,230 --> 00:06:40,060 Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's simple things of actually following organisations that you admire and that you have connections to. 62 00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:45,480 And it's a really simple thing that can actually kind of bring those opportunities into your awareness when, 63 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:54,730 like you say, you might not be thinking about it. Timing wise, but actually the the role and the organisation is it's just the right fit. 64 00:06:54,730 --> 00:06:58,570 Did you have any conversation with them in advance of applying for the role? 65 00:06:58,570 --> 00:07:03,750 About the fact that you were still finishing up the PhD 66 00:07:03,750 --> 00:07:11,340 Yes. So we spoke a little bit about it in the interview, and then afterwards, 67 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:17,610 basically I went when they identified me, as the candidate they wanted to go for. 68 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:25,070 They got in touch. And just before offering it to me, they just wanted to speak a little bit more about. 69 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:32,280 About starting the role while finishing my PhD So I'd kind of thought in advance of the interview and what sort of options? 70 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,520 Because I knew that I just didn't want to start full time immediately. 71 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:45,330 And so I had kind of loosely said about options like starting part time or delaying the start until the beginning of twenty, twenty one. 72 00:07:45,330 --> 00:07:50,970 And then when we had the call, when they wanted to offer me the job. 73 00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:56,970 Yeah. They, they were they were quite willing to be somewhat adaptable. 74 00:07:56,970 --> 00:08:02,970 But while also they basically is the first time they've been able to secure 75 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:06,660 funding to hire a new person in that team for like seven or eight years. 76 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:13,500 They were very keen to have someone start as soon as possible. But I was really glad that they were understanding of it. 77 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:17,220 And some of the team, some of my team members have PhDs themselves. 78 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:25,380 So they were really understanding of just what PhD means in terms of obviously from the career progression perspective, 79 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:32,490 but also from a personal aspect. Personal perspective is a very personal experience. 80 00:08:32,490 --> 00:08:37,260 So, yeah, they were really understanding of that. And like since starting as well, 81 00:08:37,260 --> 00:08:47,420 they've been encouraging and showed an interest in it and are keen to see that as I complete my PhD and hopefully start publishing kind of seeing. 82 00:08:47,420 --> 00:08:56,300 Yeah. I encourage me to present it to people in the organisation as well as amongst some of their networks more broadly. 83 00:08:56,300 --> 00:09:01,520 That's brilliant. And it's it's fantastic that the organisation is so supportive of that. 84 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,170 So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the application process, actually. 85 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:12,050 So you see the job on Linkedin. You almost, scroll past it, but then you don't. 86 00:09:12,050 --> 00:09:20,770 You decide to give it a closer look. What what did the application process involve exactly? 87 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:28,240 So aside from my initial umming and ahhing about whether I should apply for it or not, once I did decide, yep, why am I even. 88 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:34,650 Why am I even debating? Let me apply for it. The actual application process. 89 00:09:34,650 --> 00:09:40,810 So it's quite a typical one, sharing CV and a cover letter. 90 00:09:40,810 --> 00:09:44,540 And then once I think it was just those two then once 91 00:09:44,540 --> 00:09:49,020 I mean, they got in touch in advance of the interview. 92 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:55,560 And to say that there would be an assignment that could be done, there would be done immediately after the interview. 93 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:59,350 But they kind of kept the details of that. Yeah. 94 00:09:59,350 --> 00:10:04,120 They didn't really say anything about what it would be, just that it would take an hour. 95 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:14,590 So I had to interview with three people. I thought I really appreciated what they what they did with the with having the video 96 00:10:14,590 --> 00:10:21,160 So the interview over a video call. They each were three interviewers. 97 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:28,540 And when one person was speaking, the other two would turn off their cameras. And I thought that was a really, really quite a nice way at that time. 98 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:37,870 And it really helped me to to relax with it can be quite intimidating if you've got three random people you know very well. 99 00:10:37,870 --> 00:10:44,240 I suppose that does happen when you're having a face to face one. But a video as is, I will at least find it that much more difficult. 100 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:52,330 So I really appreciated that because it did feel more like you were just having a conversation with one person. 101 00:10:52,330 --> 00:11:03,270 Yeah. And afterwards, they then sent the assignment. So I had was given a set of data and also do various types of analysis in an hour. 102 00:11:03,270 --> 00:11:10,450 So quite technical. Yeah, fairly technical and definitely pushed me as a more of a qualitative social scientist. 103 00:11:10,450 --> 00:11:19,150 And it was quite quantitative. Clearly did enough of a did a decent enough of a job to convince them to offer me the rile 104 00:11:19,150 --> 00:11:26,320 Absolutely. Did you feel that there were things within the process or thinking about applying for a job with the 105 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:33,290 things that you concerned about that you felt were made that were more difficult due to COVID? 106 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:44,210 And how did you kind of counteract that? Yeah, I think definitely the the thing that was the main I guess my main concern, 107 00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:57,260 and I made sure as you both me and my new employers we had an open discussion about it and it was about where to be based and expectations around moving. 108 00:11:57,260 --> 00:12:00,370 So FFIs offices are in in Cambridge. 109 00:12:00,370 --> 00:12:08,570 And for a long time they've really had a very strong policy about having people based there that they have this they share a building 110 00:12:08,570 --> 00:12:16,100 with conservation students from Cambridge and a whole load of other environmental engineers is is a real strong point of working there. 111 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:26,600 So I was a little bit concerned that they would still really strongly want me to move during the pandemic. 112 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:35,990 But then they yeah, they made clear they basically they they asked if I would if I were to completely rule out ever moving to Cambridge. 113 00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:40,520 And they they wouldn't offer me the role as long as there was some sort of a 114 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,560 willingness with everything's just still in such a constant state of flux. 115 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:51,200 Not to completely rule it out, but then they also emphasised that there was no expectation of moving then it 116 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,740 was kind of in the short term but of course now with additional lockdowns as well. 117 00:12:55,740 --> 00:13:04,900 That's very much in the medium term. So that was a big concern of mine because, yeah, it's difficult enough to move. 118 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:15,850 Well, I have spent. I have lived in quite a few different countries and different places, I guess moving for me is something that is quite normal. 119 00:13:15,850 --> 00:13:26,530 But even despite how normal I find it, I was very reluctant to move in the middle of a pandemic, like even knowing people there in Cambridge already. 120 00:13:26,530 --> 00:13:33,720 Just just the thought of moving somewhere and trying to start putting down some roots and finding out what you like about the place. 121 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:41,350 I just can't really imagine doing that during the pandemic. And also just the kind of safety and space that you have, 122 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:50,130 the safety and comfort that you haven't been a living in a space both in terms of the flat, I mean, but also living in Truro just 123 00:13:50,130 --> 00:14:00,920 Yeah, that that was a big concern of mine. And so I was really glad that they were just very understanding in terms of like starting a job in COVID 124 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:12,310 It is quite yeah. It's been quite challenging at times, kind of not having the I guess what I would call the water cooler, 125 00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:19,720 informal conversations that you have with with people in the office and especially when you're starting out. 126 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:25,900 But I think I was quite fortunate that I had some relationship to the organisation already. 127 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:31,780 I worked for a small like a local partner of theirs in Tanzania before starting my career. 128 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:38,140 Yeah, I feel really fortunate to have had that existing connection. 129 00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:43,180 How are you finding doing the writing of the PhD alongside working. 130 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:50,060 How's that working for you. Oh, the million dollar question. Yes I know. 131 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:54,430 Honestly I've actually found it is actually had I. 132 00:14:54,430 --> 00:15:01,720 Don't get me wrong, it is quite full on but it's actually had a very positive effect. 133 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,180 2020 was it was a pretty tough year for me. 134 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:14,050 Basically when the pandemic was declared, I was still in the Philippines after pretty intense long term fieldwork. 135 00:15:14,050 --> 00:15:21,820 And then no, I was essentially extracted as the pandemic was declared and lockdown's are being put down. 136 00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:26,470 I got back immediate. I came back to the UK and was basically straight into lockdown. 137 00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:31,510 So it was a pretty tough experience then processing. 138 00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:39,100 But like analytically processing my data, but emotionally and the whole experience and actually I, 139 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:45,370 I feel like after getting the job, it it kind of took a it took quite a lot of weight off. 140 00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:50,980 Yeah. It felt like a weight was lifted and that but my whole relationship with my PhD changed quite a bit. 141 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:59,080 It was no longer so kind of like tied up it and. 142 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,040 Yeah, like it just started to get a bit of perspective on on on the PhD 143 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:16,450 And being able to kind of separate it out for myself a bit. And I think also having that urgency in that pressure that still felt somewhat manageable. 144 00:16:16,450 --> 00:16:22,830 I think it helps with being less of a perfectionist and trying to really get everything perfect. 145 00:16:22,830 --> 00:16:29,500 As I remember, seeing a quote like a PhD is never done is just simply handed in at the least damaging time. 146 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,790 And I feel like starting the job. Yeah. It really helped to that. 147 00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:42,320 And I think in terms of productivity. Yeah, I'm just chipping away at it when I can. 148 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:48,770 Most mornings, not all mornings, and I'm trying to just be flexible and mostly just kind myself. 149 00:16:48,770 --> 00:16:54,440 If I have energy and I feel up for it, then I'll try and do like an hour or so reading in the morning. 150 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:04,040 As if writing and in the mornings during the work week, occasionally working on weekends or the past few weeks since this new lockdown. 151 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:12,310 I've been trying not to do that. So, yeah, it's I think for me it. 152 00:17:12,310 --> 00:17:15,510 November and December, when I still had those two days a week on the PhD, 153 00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:23,600 there were some of the most productive times I have felt like I kind of had the breakthrough in and theoretic, 154 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,300 like drawing together my my data and theoretical frameworks. 155 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:35,020 And yeah, I find it really fascinating, like beyond just the whole, like, 156 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:39,030 productivity aspect of the PhD and getting closer to finishing my PhD 157 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:47,260 I find it really interesting from a psychological perspective of time and pressure and expectation and everything. 158 00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:53,410 Because how did that kind of compare in terms of when you were when you're working on writing up the PhD 159 00:17:53,410 --> 00:18:01,870 And you weren't working as well, did you? Did you find, like you said, you make a lot breakthroughs, but did you find it easier to kind of, I guess, 160 00:18:01,870 --> 00:18:06,700 structure your time or motivate yourself once you got the once you've got the job 161 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:13,770 than you did when you were just trying to kind of write it during the pandemic? 162 00:18:13,770 --> 00:18:24,990 I think I think it kind of it would vary quite a bit, depending on like basically the stage of of the pandemic and definitely there were some periods, 163 00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:33,990 especially when I had first come back, I get there was some periods of like being really, really unproductive. 164 00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:41,100 But generally I tried as much as possible to keep Monday to Friday, nine to five, 165 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:51,600 or sometimes ten to four and I will have was mostly able to keep that up while still full time month on the PhD. 166 00:18:51,600 --> 00:19:03,600 But but yeah, I think it just. I can't really put my finger on it, it was almost like a switch was kind of flicked in terms of just. 167 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:11,820 Yeah, just in terms of realising that, OK, I have this amount of time, I have this many work days, two days, work days a week for the next two months. 168 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:18,240 So two days on the PhD or the next two months, I really need to just get words on paper. 169 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,040 Felt like the edge. Getting words on paper became a lot easier. 170 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,720 But then a big part of that is also to do with a breakthrough that had around that time. 171 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,010 And that was kind of more to do with reading a new paper that just really clicked. 172 00:19:32,010 --> 00:19:38,420 So I think is very a combination of having that moment of data just coming together. 173 00:19:38,420 --> 00:19:44,400 But then also having that limited, limited amount of time, a limited amount of days. 174 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:53,590 Yeah, I experienced something similar when I did my Masters by research that actually the kind of the condensed amount of time actually helped me, 175 00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:58,300 helped me focus and helped me. Keep motivated. 176 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:05,100 Also gave me kind of head space in between when I was doing other things to kind of, you know, little cogs to turn and things to click into me. 177 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:13,330 Guess is something that I also remember from when I did my Masters as well. 178 00:20:13,330 --> 00:20:17,770 My partner and I, we both had part time jobs while we're doing the Masters. 179 00:20:17,770 --> 00:20:22,480 And remember the whole thesis process when we spoke about this, 180 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:32,080 we were on the same master's programme when we spoke about our experience of writing a thesis with friends who had just only had it to focus on. 181 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,370 I think I was actually ended up quite a lot. Wasn't easy. 182 00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:43,750 Thesis is never easy, but it always ended up a little a little bit easier because we kind of did have that. 183 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:46,330 A few days a week when working in retail. 184 00:20:46,330 --> 00:20:52,870 And it was something you would really focus on and be quite present in that and be able to kind of just drop away, 185 00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:59,800 at least consciously, not be thinking about about the thesis and then being able to compartmentalise your time, be like, okay. 186 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:06,200 Now I have this. Now I've got my work shift in the morning. I've then got this afternoon where I need to be productive. 187 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:12,880 I'll go to the library and do that. So I think, yeah, I understand it doesn't work for may not work for everyone, 188 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,550 but I've definitely found that having something else to kind of give structure, 189 00:21:18,550 --> 00:21:29,650 to give structure, but also it's to give to something else where you can say find it certainly unconsciously and also consciously the PhD 190 00:21:29,650 --> 00:21:32,560 And we'll still pop into my mind when I'm doing other things. 191 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:41,890 But kind of having that separation and being able to do something that isn't the PhD basically. the question I often 192 00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:49,270 ask people is kind of at what point did you decide that you didn't want to continue on doing research in academia? 193 00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:57,970 Was that never even a consideration for you? This is the billion dollar question now. 194 00:21:57,970 --> 00:22:07,230 Down at. So I I feel like I kind of straddle the. 195 00:22:07,230 --> 00:22:18,190 I do want to call it a divide, straddle the kind of one foot being a bike practitioner, one foot being a researcher. 196 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:23,940 And so I was working for an NGO before my PhD and that kind of thing. 197 00:22:23,940 --> 00:22:30,150 A bit frustrated about that. And just felt like I wanted to continue my my academic education. 198 00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:34,710 I think it was a case of just do a really interesting PhD 199 00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:39,810 The opportunity came up through the work. I was I was doing that. 200 00:22:39,810 --> 00:22:45,510 That's how I met one of my PhD supervisors. And it was just such an exciting project. 201 00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:51,390 It was really. Yes. It was more the kids. 202 00:22:51,390 --> 00:22:58,030 I wasn't actively looking for PhD at all. At that point, I kind of considered that it might be something I do. 203 00:22:58,030 --> 00:23:03,280 And something really interesting came up. So I decided to pursue it. 204 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:13,860 I think probably, I'll be honest with you, probably not long after I started, appears the I was fairly sure I didn't want to stay in academia. 205 00:23:13,860 --> 00:23:18,900 I definitely wanted to stick with the PhD and I'm glad I have stuck with it. 206 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:26,180 Of course, there are times where you feel I felt like I was on the brink of giving up. 207 00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:29,080 But I wouldn't say I was ever 100 percent certain. 208 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:38,040 I didn't want to stay in academia, I think, again, it would be like if it was something that really interested me or is really, 209 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,330 really well aligned with my interests and my values. 210 00:23:40,330 --> 00:23:49,980 And I probably would have gone for it, but I don't think I would have looked for post-doc for the sake of doing one if if that makes sense. 211 00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:54,240 Not not that that's there's anything wrong with that. Yeah. 212 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:59,010 I just never really was never set on a career in academia. 213 00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:04,590 But I definitely feel like compared with where I was at the beginning of the PhD 214 00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:08,940 And I do think that the PhD is the experience, 215 00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:15,600 the research experience working on a big collaborative project is it's really I've definitely grown 216 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:22,830 a lot and a lot of what I'm doing in my current role is a technical input on social monitoring, 217 00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:25,290 evaluation and in social research. 218 00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:34,050 So there is a very strong research element to it that I feel like I probably wasn't strong enough on before doing the PhD 219 00:24:34,050 --> 00:24:39,180 So I think that this new role that I'm in is in what if if I call a crosscutting, 220 00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:44,250 teams are kind of supporting different teams with this technical input is it's kind of like 221 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:50,620 the perfect next step in kind of balancing being both a practitioner and a researcher. 222 00:24:50,620 --> 00:24:53,370 So being. Yeah. 223 00:24:53,370 --> 00:25:07,740 Very applied and pragmatic and focussed on the ground sort of work, but then really guided by cutting edge research and theoretical frameworks. 224 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:13,620 Yes, it's. It really does sound like the ideal combination. Yeah. 225 00:25:13,620 --> 00:25:17,280 I still sometimes kind of pinch myself that I've been able to get the job. 226 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:23,910 And I like I say, I do feel very, very fortunate, you know, knowing other people who are applying for jobs right now. 227 00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:26,010 And it is just a very difficult market. 228 00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:34,780 So I feel very fortunate that something that really does draw together the research and practise side of things. 229 00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:39,240 Yeah, I feel very fortunate to have been able to to secure this role. 230 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:47,010 Thank you so much to Timur for giving us an insight into working for an NGO. 231 00:25:47,010 --> 00:25:52,500 And the real tangible benefits that can bring to being a researcher in that practical 232 00:25:52,500 --> 00:26:00,660 applied context to balancing a part time job and career alongside finishing up the PhD. 233 00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:08,910 And, of course, what it's like to go through the process of all of this during the COVID 19 pandemic. 234 00:26:08,910 --> 00:26:24,637 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about that career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Hannah Roberts, who works as a career coach with women in science.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,610 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:28,710 Hello and welcome to the first episode of Beyond Your Research Degree for 2021. 3 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:33,710 My name is Kelly Preece and on the research develop a manager for PGRs at the University of Exeter. 4 00:00:33,710 --> 00:00:39,390 And I'm delighted for our first episode of 2021 to be bringing you a discussion with Hannah Roberts. 5 00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:43,800 Hannah did her PhD and a couple of postdocs and then became a career coach. 6 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:51,600 So she works one to one with women in research and academia, particularly in STEM and scientific fields. 7 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,490 So, Hannah, are you happy to introduce yourself? Absolutely, sir. 8 00:00:56,490 --> 00:01:00,840 Hi, everybody. I'm Hannah Roberts and Well first of all 9 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:06,140 I have a degree master's phd postdoc in chemistry, 10 00:01:06,140 --> 00:01:11,820 and I spent eight years managing large multi-million pound projects between academics 11 00:01:11,820 --> 00:01:17,700 and industry and commercialising that research and parts of the commercialisation. 12 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:23,160 I started a spin out company with three other female academics, 13 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:31,410 and I was managing director of that company for two years and did all of that white having three children. 14 00:01:31,410 --> 00:01:39,460 And it was actually on my maternity leave where I decided that maybe I had outstretched 15 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:43,410 outgrown the role that I was in in scientific project management. 16 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:46,890 And now is the time to to make a switch. 17 00:01:46,890 --> 00:01:57,790 And so that's that was the moment where I decided I was going to be a career coach specifically for women in science. 18 00:01:57,790 --> 00:02:07,240 Amazing. So can we Take a step back from what you do now and talk a little bit about the spin out company and how it came about was. 19 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,970 So that was you during your research degree, is that right? 20 00:02:12,970 --> 00:02:20,160 Mine;s a little bit more complicated, so. When I finished my PhD, I went straight into a postdoc. 21 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,600 So I switch from chemistry to biotechnology at that point. 22 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:35,080 And so I got really into the analytical side of mass spectrometry as a tool to help with sort of looking at the structures of carbohydrates at that 23 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,330 time. Then I was two weeks. 24 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:43,800 Well, I should say I was probably four weeks into my postdoc and I fell pregnant. 25 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,710 So when I returned after my maternity leave and I kind of switched role at that point, 26 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:54,450 say, when I started my postdoc, I was half project manager, half postdoc. 27 00:02:54,450 --> 00:03:01,350 But essentially that meant I was most of the time postdoc. So did the project management alongside. 28 00:03:01,350 --> 00:03:05,170 But when I returned and just came back as a scientific project manager. 29 00:03:05,170 --> 00:03:11,710 So at that point, I was managing lots of different these projects because I knew the technology really well. 30 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:21,900 And one of the things that's a lots of funding bodies are looking for of obviously commercialisation is from these from these projects, 31 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:29,760 whether that's licence agreements, whether that's spin out companies, whether that's patents or something like that. 32 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:38,040 And we decided the best vehicle for this new technology in terms of the mass spectrometry was to do it through and through a new company, 33 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:48,870 because that way we could get industry to be able to send those samples and all that kind of stuff independently of the projects. 34 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:57,300 And that way we could start to then find our own funding and our own money to to make that a company in its own right. 35 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:02,230 Well. I mean, it sounds impressive on paper. 36 00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:07,540 I'm not I'm not sure that's how I felt about it at the time. 37 00:04:07,540 --> 00:04:11,920 Yes, I can appreciate that. I think there's two things I want to pick up on that. 38 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:18,880 The first is about kind of so there seems to be quite a shift in that to from kind of scientific 39 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,740 research to project management and more kind of business and entrepreneurially related skills. 40 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:29,330 How did you find that that shift in focus? 41 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:36,060 And to be honest, I I missed out a bit from the career history because I try and make it sound succinct so that it's, 42 00:04:36,060 --> 00:04:40,050 you know, degree masters PhD Postdoc chemistry. 43 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:49,950 So actually, between my degree and my PhD I went on a squiggly loop of not knowing what on earth I was doing. 44 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:57,840 So I worked for Croda Chemicals on a graduate development scheme for a couple of years and tried lots of different areas of the business. 45 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:04,230 And so I spent quite some time in sales because I thought I would be quite good at that and which I did. 46 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:09,450 I did enjoy to degree. And and then I felt I was too far removed from the science. 47 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:17,760 So then I got a business development, manager role in cancer studies and down at the Patterson Institute 48 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:25,860 And that's where I learnt how to and a little bit more about how to write grants and then how to manage them and how to manage the funds of them. 49 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:33,570 So I did that for a couple of years. Then I decided I need a vocation, so I'm going to become a teacher. 50 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:39,120 So I did my teacher training for. Yeah. Wow. And yeah, quite a few different things. 51 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,690 And then I oh this isn't for me. All the kids are stressing me out. 52 00:05:42,690 --> 00:05:48,790 They're not listening. It's not like being in university where everybody just listen because they want to be there. 53 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:56,520 And I was on a real, a real spiral of I've got to find something because and everybody around me was 54 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:02,490 off with their careers and I felt like I was just restarting all the time. 55 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:10,450 And so I was actually offered a PhD by my old supervisor because it's the first time he'd had funding since since I left i was like 56 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:16,830 Like, I'm just going to do that because that's where I where I excelled and where I could feel feel good again, 57 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:22,280 because at that time I was quite anxious and having panic attacks and all kinds of things. 58 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:33,180 So actually having that PhD set me back up on a path of sort of a good a good place to build a career from. 59 00:06:33,180 --> 00:06:43,320 To be honest. So and the PhD was kind of kind of a saviour for me, which is not what you hear from most people who don't necessarily. 60 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:51,350 But I think it's really it's always really nice to have people who have the experience of do of doing a research degree. 61 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:57,700 I mean, to end it being very much the right thing and the thing that they needed at that point in time, career wise, you know, and life, wise. 62 00:06:57,700 --> 00:06:59,070 Mm hmm. 63 00:06:59,070 --> 00:07:05,100 The second thing I wanted to pick up from what you said was about the fact that you started your postdoc within a very short space of time, you got. 64 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:08,970 Pregnant. Yes. Went on maternity leave and the role changed. 65 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:15,060 If you if you feel comfortable talking about it, I wondered, you know, if you could talk about. 66 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:19,140 What that was like career wise in terms of, you know, 67 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:24,810 going so soon into a job and then taking maternity leave and then coming back to a slightly different role. 68 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:32,290 How what was that experience like? I think that's a concern for a lot of women. 69 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:39,490 Absolutely. And because I'd had those different interim roles before I do my PhD at that point, 70 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:48,970 I was 28 years old when I got married and I just finished my PhD So I really was at a time in my life where I was looking to to start my family. 71 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:55,120 And I was in the last year of my PhD I looked ahead at the other women in the department. 72 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:02,050 So I was in the Department of Chemistry and I found five of the women out of over 200 people. 73 00:08:02,050 --> 00:08:10,930 And I was looking carefully at what they were doing. And I think to two or three had children and I was very concerned. 74 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:18,970 That's what what it looked like to me was that to make it work, it had to be all consuming, because in my mind, 75 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:25,630 when I had children, I wanted to have this kind of maybe just work three days a week and I just couldn't see this elusive thing. 76 00:08:25,630 --> 00:08:31,480 That was a part time professor. It didn't seem to exist for me. 77 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,500 But as is the nature of these things, 78 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:44,110 I was recommended for a postdoc and it seemed like I was on this conveyor belt and it was the next logical progression. 79 00:08:44,110 --> 00:08:50,710 And that and having had when I went to the interview, which was an informal chats, because, of course, had been recommended. 80 00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:57,580 So I had this interview and it was just sort of proposed that well we had this postdoc. 81 00:08:57,580 --> 00:09:01,900 But it also needs to include some project management. You have that in your history. 82 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:06,040 Are you okay with doing this? And and of course, I just say yes. 83 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:13,330 Yes, of course. That's absolutely fine. And she was willing to wait for eight months for me to start. 84 00:09:13,330 --> 00:09:19,510 So I had time to finish up my postdoc and my experiments. I'm writing my PhD 85 00:09:19,510 --> 00:09:26,410 So a couple of months before I actually started the postdoc, I actually fell pregnant. 86 00:09:26,410 --> 00:09:33,460 And unfortunately, I had a miscarriage at that time. So my supervisor, my. 87 00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:40,540 who, I was moving to actually knew about that. So it wasn't a massive surprise to her when I started the job. 88 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:45,340 And then, you know, a few a few months in, I said that I was pregnant. 89 00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:52,770 And she was she was really pleased for me and happy and and really supportive, actually. 90 00:09:52,770 --> 00:10:00,210 So it was more of a it was the time in the life. You can't kind of change the the biology of you can put it off. 91 00:10:00,210 --> 00:10:10,520 But for how long? Because I'm on that conveyor belt at that point. There's never a good time to have a child is there in terms of your carer 92 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,710 And so my husband is five years older than me. 93 00:10:13,710 --> 00:10:19,590 So we were we just decided that was the time to do it with stability or without stability. 94 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:23,650 And at least he had a very stable job. 95 00:10:23,650 --> 00:10:28,200 And at least with postdocs you know exactly how long the contracts for. 96 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,400 So I found stability within the instability of knowing. 97 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:38,530 At least that Coming on to what you do now, can you talk a little bit about that? 98 00:10:38,530 --> 00:10:43,250 The coaching you do and the particular focus that you have? 99 00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:52,470 Yeah, I think because of the experiences that I had and, you know, being on that conveyor belt but not seeing what I really wanted out of academia, 100 00:10:52,470 --> 00:11:01,160 you know, that part time professor kind of role and then having gone a completely sort of. 101 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:07,430 Being moulded in a way to do a different position. But it wasn't necessarily using my natural talents and capabilities. 102 00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:16,790 So we actually had someone she was in the personal development sphere when we were running a meeting for one of these projects I was managing. 103 00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:23,730 And she used what's called talent dynamics profiling. And she profiled all of us in the team. 104 00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:27,650 And when I got my profile back, I was like, Oh, this isn't me. 105 00:11:27,650 --> 00:11:31,310 I've answered the questions as if I'm in my current role. 106 00:11:31,310 --> 00:11:36,080 But it's not my natural preference. And when we had a debrief about it, 107 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:42,950 it was really clear that the role I was doing was the complete opposite end of the spectrum to my natural preferences. 108 00:11:42,950 --> 00:11:48,140 And that's and I was like, oh, I'm doing the complete wrong, wrong career. 109 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:54,170 I'm in the wrong job here and I don't have the confidence to get out of it. 110 00:11:54,170 --> 00:11:58,430 So I didn't feel it was I had stability, I had another five year contract, 111 00:11:58,430 --> 00:12:05,300 I could keep kept rolling on and on and on, and I could design and do whatever I wanted within those roles. 112 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:13,430 So and it was actually having coaching for the last two years before I finished that role that enabled me to 113 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:21,800 have the confidence to be able to to move on to something different because my my first two maternity leaves, 114 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:29,690 I actually worked straight through them. So I was concerned that I wouldn't have a contract to go back to. 115 00:12:29,690 --> 00:12:35,930 So I decided to say, oh, I'll just continue with my job while I'm on maternity leave. 116 00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:42,890 So that basically that I would be indispensible. And this is a common practise with lots of people. 117 00:12:42,890 --> 00:12:49,470 They they write their fellowships on maternity leave. In fact, most of the female academic said to me, oh, 118 00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:54,620 I wrote my fellowship the first twelve weeks of academia and of having a baby or I went back to 119 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:59,270 work after two weeks and got a nanny or these are the kind of things people were telling me. 120 00:12:59,270 --> 00:13:04,490 So I thought, well, I should be doing something on maternity leave. 121 00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:11,420 And I did try. I did start try to write a fellowship, but I quickly decided I wasn't quite good enough to do that. 122 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:18,410 At that moment in time, funnily enough. But actually having coaching those last two years, 123 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:24,500 which came about as as business coaching through the company and but I found it really 124 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:30,350 helpful at a personal level and having restored my confidence to to that level. 125 00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:36,410 I then went onto a third maternity leave and said, no, I'm not doing anything on this maternity leave. 126 00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:41,090 And having that time and space to think and explore different things and not 127 00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:47,300 maternity leave was really crucial to me than not actually returning to that role. 128 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:51,260 And during that maternity leave, it was wonderful. 129 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:58,070 You know, it's a really nice summer. I started a rock painting group and I was looking for loads of stuff. 130 00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:01,860 And then I found this thing online about Superwoman. 131 00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:09,890 I was like, oh, my goodness, it sounds just like me, you know, running at 200 miles an hour, pushing to prove myself. 132 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:18,800 All this stuff. And when I entered into it, they had these foundational courses in time and energy management and and some coaching stuff. 133 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:26,000 And I had to look at it. Did the courses and was like, oh, oh, I can see a link now between. 134 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:33,570 Between this coaching stuff and the difference that I want to make within universities, particularly for women. 135 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:38,540 When I made that link, I was like, I can do this through coaching, having being coached. 136 00:14:38,540 --> 00:14:40,910 I knew the impact that it had on me. 137 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:51,080 And then I thought as a coach, I can then help the people to navigate this career path much more smoothly than I ever did it. 138 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,020 And that's what's really important to me. 139 00:14:53,020 --> 00:15:02,600 Having having this smoother pathway, that doesn't necessarily mean continuing along this conveyor belts of academia. 140 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,070 It can mean lots of different things. 141 00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:13,190 But finding the right pathway for you and the other part that's really important to me is having more women in leadership positions. 142 00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:24,980 Yes. In academia, but also the world around because we know that and the more diverse the leadership is and the better decisions that are made. 143 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:33,450 So those are the kind of the two components that I'm trying to combine together within my own coaching company. 144 00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:40,910 And so you even though, you know, some academic, you're working a lot with academics. 145 00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:54,830 Yes, I my my coachees tend to be  from postdocs, I get a lot of postdocs fellows, group leaders and also similar positions in industry as well. 146 00:15:54,830 --> 00:16:06,410 And so it tends to be. Tends to be more of the way you've got a natural kind of career progression, say career transitions, 147 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:13,090 say for postdocs it's that kind of lasts 12 months on the contract cause and get to be on the brain all the time, you know. 148 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:18,630 Oh, my goodness. I've got to go to sort of line something up. 149 00:16:18,630 --> 00:16:27,120 And I've got lots of fellows that have done that whole or part way through the fellowship and not sure if they want to continue. 150 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:35,040 Because of the stress and the pressures of anxiety and of academia and and it's around, one, 151 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:43,740 helping people to manage the current situation more powerfully and more confidently with the right tools to equip them to do that. 152 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:49,650 And at the same time, trying to figure out this piece about who they really are and what impact they want to make on the world. 153 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:59,460 Because your value or your self-confidence can come from your vision, mission, purpose, natural talents and capabilities and your values. 154 00:16:59,460 --> 00:17:05,280 And when all of those five pieces are defined that so we can truly know in value, 155 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:11,490 we'll be doing the thing that we love doing, finding fulfilment in it and getting paid what worth with as well. 156 00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:17,360 So those are the kind of key pieces for me. 157 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:25,600 Yeah, um, I. I think it's really interesting that you said that you talk about that because it's clear how much of an impact, 158 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:33,850 the kind of that assessment of values and reflection and had on you and your career path. 159 00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:43,780 And then the kind of having those conversations with your clients. And I know from my own experience, I used to be an academic and I. 160 00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:49,640 Did it for a number of years and then realised I was quite unhappy and. 161 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,600 It was only when I took a step back for the first time in my life, 162 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,590 I kind of had that reflection of my values and the kind of work life I wanted and the work life balance. 163 00:17:57,590 --> 00:18:02,730 I wanted that I realised I was in completely the wrong job. 164 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:09,350 And that's the kind of started me on the on the path that led me to working in a professional services job in a university. 165 00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:16,760 But I know from experience when we kind of say to people or, you know, doing these kinds of psychometric tests or, 166 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:24,920 you know, values, assessments and everything is really important to understanding why you want to go in your career. 167 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,910 I think sometimes people feel a bit like, oh, yeah, all right, okay, whatever. 168 00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:39,240 And I think no  it really will change the way that you do things. 169 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:48,090 For sure. It did for me, but on that point, I was that person who was too busy and I think these things are interesting, 170 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:52,710 like, oh, you know, this is a researchers into management course. 171 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:57,770 I'll apply for that. And this imposter syndrome workshop, I'd apply for all these things. 172 00:18:57,770 --> 00:19:06,090 I'd be booked on them. And then I wouldn't show up i'm that naughty person that was far too busy and important to actually turn up because 173 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:11,810 I have too much work to do because I'm superwoman ing and I'm too busy like I've got I've got to be gone. 174 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:14,730 at half past four to pick up the kids and I'm doing this and doing this and I can't 175 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:19,500 actually find the time to go to the things that are most important to me. 176 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:27,270 And so I think some of the things to address that actually the culture that causes the superwoman 177 00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:34,000 kind of archetype that prevents us from actually accessing these things in the first place. 178 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,200 Yeah, absolutely. 179 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:47,960 And and I think that is it's interesting kind of the focus that you have on on women and moving women through their career path and leadership, 180 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:56,260 because, you know, we know that that is a particular problem that women face. 181 00:19:56,260 --> 00:20:01,180 Is that kind of that expectation or the expectation we put on ourselves and the 182 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:14,790 expectation put on us by society and our workplaces to be that superwoman? Yeah, it yeah, it's a complicated beast, superwoman. 183 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:20,880 So we have these sort of statistics that, you know, only and I saw it myself. 184 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,100 So 43 percent of women will start with a chemistry degree. 185 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:31,200 And certainly when I was doing chemistry, everyone around me looked just like me, you know? 186 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,260 I didn't see a problem. And it wasn't until I got to that. 187 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:41,200 And just looking ahead to that p h d to postdoc position where I really noticed. 188 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,300 Oh. Two steps ahead of me. There's not so many of them about. 189 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:51,240 That was the very first inkling I had that, you know, there was this kind of leaky pipeline. 190 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:59,010 And now the statistics show and I quote chemistry. But you can look them up in everyone's own personal fields. 191 00:20:59,010 --> 00:21:03,680 But only nine percent of women become professors. Nine percent. 192 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,880 And 43 percent going in. 193 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:14,830 So this is a huge dropoff of an already of a pipeline of a conveyor belt that isn't going to be for everybody in the first place. 194 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:19,590 But all of those women that start out, there's not many people making it through. 195 00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:23,370 And I sort of have a theory on this because I'm a scientist. 196 00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:31,890 I like more of a theory. So does this statistic that says that women are 60 percent more likely to suffer job stress? 197 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:37,500 and burn out than men and there's some components to that, so first of all 198 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:45,300 There's some work by Hofstedder. And he talks about masculine versus feminine coaches. 199 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:52,410 And there are six different independent studies that feed into what determines the masculine qualities of a culture. 200 00:21:52,410 --> 00:22:01,080 But they came up with things like material rewards for success, individualism, competition is celebrated. 201 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:08,640 These kind of qualities and the more feminine qualities were seen as collaboration and 202 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:16,000 caring for the weak and the sick in society and and a more collaborative type of society. 203 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,440 And interestingly, from the research, Japan came out as the most masculine country in the whole world. 204 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,910 Unsurprisingly, actually, and Finland was lowest on the score 205 00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:32,350 Now, the U.K. was actually the ninth most masculine country in the whole world. 206 00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:44,530 Nine. And that was super shocking to me because we're swimming around in a soup that is celebrating this competition culture that drives Superwoman. 207 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:49,290 And another factor to layer in on that, then, is also a personal paradigm. 208 00:22:49,290 --> 00:22:55,110 So I come from quite a masculine paradigm family because my dad works away Monday 209 00:22:55,110 --> 00:23:01,680 to Friday and my mom was in charge of the family superwomen her way through. 210 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:10,910 And if we go through back a generation, my grandma was the only one to actually show up to work when bombs were coming down on their village. 211 00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:18,300 And because it's that kind of push through, show up, no matter what mentality in my family. 212 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:29,430 And then layering on top of that, a workplace hierarchical culture where actually your your colleagues in academia are also your competition. 213 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:37,680 And it's very hierarchical as well, because we've got, you know, professors, senior lecturers, lecturers, fellows, postdocs. 214 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,130 You can see how all those three things combined create this soup. 215 00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:51,030 And there's also a statistic to show you that women are less happy as a gender than we were 40 years ago. 216 00:23:51,030 --> 00:23:56,790 And that is irrespective of and of lots of different factors, 217 00:23:56,790 --> 00:24:02,640 like how how many children you have if you have children, whether you're married, single, divorced, whatever. 218 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:12,660 The only exception is African-American women. And they are slightly happier than they were 40 years ago, but still less happy than the men. 219 00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:18,960 So why are we getting And even though now we have more opportunities than ever before. 220 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:28,740 Why are we getting sick? Why are we burning out? So my theory is that this archetype of superwoman that so many of us are using 221 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:34,440 is actually the very power that is preventing us from and being happy. 222 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,110 The thing that's now burning is out in the workplace. 223 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:43,080 So it got us these amazing opportunities, but it can't it's not actually sustaining goes long term. 224 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,510 And certainly that's what I see a lot with my clients. 225 00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:54,150 Those in Superwoman may also be getting, you know, poorly once every three months, that sort of tonsillitis, seven times a year. 226 00:24:54,150 --> 00:25:04,740 That's what I used to get. It's that kind of pushing too hard for too long and has to be a different way to get stuff done. 227 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:10,790 And what we say about Superwoman. Is that it's operating from fear? 228 00:25:10,790 --> 00:25:16,600 Because if there's an underlying fear there, then Superwoman is going to show up to make us feel even. 229 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,140 And, you know, so we that we don't have to feel bad or or ever again. 230 00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:25,820 You know, it's the perfect antidote to imposter syndrome. So if I'm not good enough, don't worry. 231 00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:30,380 Superwoman can step in and save the day. So I don't have to feel like that again. 232 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:35,080 But of course we do. And so superwomen just continues. Yeah. 233 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:46,500 You know, all of this all too well my so much of myself and so many of the amazing women around me in that. 234 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:51,660 So can you talk a little bit about. You're coaching them. 235 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:57,030 So what it actually involves so you work one on one with clients. 236 00:25:57,030 --> 00:26:01,200 And quite often with with postdocs or people on that kind of career track. 237 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:08,870 What what sort of work are you doing with them? What kind of conversations are you having? 238 00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:16,910 Here it is. It's a mixture of different things because, yes, I am primarily focussed on career coaching, 239 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:22,290 so I'm looking at people who have formed that identity around their career. 240 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:31,840 As is the major parts of their life. Typically, these people are really concerned with making an impact, making a difference, helping the people. 241 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:41,640 And so the first piece of work that I always do is to drill down and get clarity on what the actual core of the problem is. 242 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,810 And often that can come down to a number of different factors. 243 00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:50,230 But it could be the perception or the judgement of other people. 244 00:26:50,230 --> 00:27:02,120 You know, when we worry what other people think, it can cause us to pre-empt situations or overthink it in the moment or catastrophizing. 245 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,880 So there is some of the things people might be coming to me with or procrastinating, 246 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,000 because if we are very concerned about the perception or the judgements for the people, 247 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:21,020 it can be hard for us to complete upon tasks, particularly the big tasks like grant writing or papers, 248 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:25,550 because we know that we're going to get criticism in return 249 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:29,390 So what I'm doing right at the beginning when I start working with people, 250 00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:40,430 is figuring out what the actual underlying challenges are for them by giving clarity from lots of different perspectives and angles. 251 00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:46,170 Once we have that, we set out a series of aspirational intentions for future. 252 00:27:46,170 --> 00:27:53,630 And we break things down in the very first actions that she can get to start to maybe towards those intentions. 253 00:27:53,630 --> 00:28:01,790 And if them from that point, they went to continue, we then look at the core of the problem, how the brain works. 254 00:28:01,790 --> 00:28:03,800 You know, that cyclic, iterative thinking. 255 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:10,550 You know, how we create meaning from situations, attach emotions to them, and then that feeds into the next scenario. 256 00:28:10,550 --> 00:28:18,940 So we look at that iterative cycle of thinking and break that down with tools that you can apply to stop overthinking. 257 00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:28,070 And from that point, we layer in another piece of awareness about Superwoman and had disempowering archetypal cousins of the bitch 258 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:32,060 the martyr and the victim, and we use a tool to tigger trap 259 00:28:32,060 --> 00:28:38,900 Those behaviours and I use specific NLP based tools to let go of that stuff because it's important 260 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:45,720 to me to let go of the challenging patterns of behaviour before we start career planning, 261 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:54,380 because you could have a very different outcome from if you're coming from a confident point of view as to when you first coming into coaching. 262 00:28:54,380 --> 00:29:00,290 So it takes me about six sessions to to really get to the core of it and move people beyond it. 263 00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:08,030 And then the last six sessions are really focussed towards defining your value and working on your leadership capabilities. 264 00:29:08,030 --> 00:29:16,910 So defining your value is that piece around vision, purpose, mission, natural talents and capabilities and values. 265 00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:21,740 And then from that piece, I'm also using another profiling tool. 266 00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:23,030 So I use talent dynamics. 267 00:29:23,030 --> 00:29:36,210 I also use the women's five power types in my coaching, and I help people to enhance the qualities of, say, for instance, if Superwoman shows up. 268 00:29:36,210 --> 00:29:40,580 superwoman doesn't make us a better communicator. It just makes us more anxious. 269 00:29:40,580 --> 00:29:44,930 If we're in an interview, we don't want it being superwoman. I'd be just very nervous. 270 00:29:44,930 --> 00:29:58,940 We actually want to step into the queen power type who is serene, calm in command, and he can articulate a vision really, really powerfully. 271 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:04,160 So it's about showing people how to access those five different power types. 272 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,280 Also, for leadership enhancement 273 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:15,390 And then we do a five year detailed five year plan and design a network of support consciously to help put that plan into place. 274 00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:17,570 So when I'm removed from that picture, 275 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:27,230 people will have the right people to help them get there in terms of mental sponsor's and other kinds of support as well. 276 00:30:27,230 --> 00:30:38,250 Perhaps the obvious ways that you all are using your experience of working in academia and in a research context. 277 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:43,110 To work with them, relate to your clients. 278 00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:47,880 But one of the things we always try and kind of ask and talk about is how actually, you know, 279 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:56,520 what what what skills and experience specifically are you using from your research degree, and your postdoc in the role that you're in now? 280 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,150 Are there things that have transpired over really, really clearly or do you feel it's a completely different. 281 00:31:02,150 --> 00:31:08,920 You know, it's been a completely different kind of role and you've needed to learn a completely new set of skills. 282 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:18,970 I think with em, with postdocs and PhDs, there are so many transferable skills that are really, really helpful and for any given job. 283 00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:20,770 So the things that I, 284 00:31:20,770 --> 00:31:30,160 I definitely fall back on time and time again are I did my whole PhD was on using different spectroscopic techniques and analysis. 285 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,270 So I'm very analytical in the way that I approach coaching too. 286 00:31:34,270 --> 00:31:40,690 So for instance, I have those aspirational intentions for people's futures 287 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:46,630 but it's not breaking down the analysis of what they said, this and this history session and noticing this. 288 00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:48,130 And I've I've got a tool for that. 289 00:31:48,130 --> 00:31:57,910 And I know I'm constantly analysing what people are saying and the context and bringing it all together into into a big picture. 290 00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:05,440 And I'm also analysing the progress that people are making on a fortnightly basis in terms of scoring's and rating. 291 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,470 So I've become very scientific about whether or not the coaching is beneficial and working. 292 00:32:11,470 --> 00:32:19,930 And I need to see that progress to know that I'm making a difference and an impact to that person and tangibly. 293 00:32:19,930 --> 00:32:26,680 So I think that that those analytical skills are crucial and creating systems. 294 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:37,920 So I don't know about you, but in my PhD, I had to create protocols and294 00:32:26,680 -->293 00:32:19,930 -->292 00:32:11,470 -->291 00:32:05,440 -->290 00:31:57,910 -->289 00:31:48,130 -->288 00:31:46,630 -->287 00:31:40,690 -->286 00:31:34,270 -->285 00:31:30,160 -->284 00:31:20,770 -->283 00:31:18,970 -->282 00:31:08,920 -->281 00:31:02,150 -->280 00:30:56,520 -->279 00:30:47,880 -->278 00:30:43,110 -->277 00:30:38,250 -->276 00:30:27,230 -->275 00:30:17,570 -->274 00:30:15,390 -->273 00:30:07,280 -->272 00:30:04,160 -->271 00:29:58,940 -->270 00:29:44,930 -->269 00:29:40,580 -->268 00:29:36,210 -->267 00:29:23,030 -->266 00:29:21,740 -->265 00:29:16,910 -->264 00:29:08,030 -->263 00:29:00,290 -->262 00:28:54,380 -->261 00:28:45,720 -->260 00:28:38,900 -->259 00:28:32,060 -->258 00:28:28,070 -->257 00:28:18,940 -->256 00:28:10,550 -->255 00:28:03,800 -->254 00:28:01,790 -->253 00:27:53,630 -->252 00:27:46,170 -->251 00:27:40,430 -->250 00:27:29,390 -->249 00:27:25,550 -->248 00:27:21,020 -->247 00:27:14,000 -->246 00:27:07,880 -->245 00:27:02,120 -->244 00:26:50,230 -->243 00:26:45,810 -->242 00:26:41,640 -->241 00:26:31,840 -->240 00:26:22,290 -->239 00:26:16,910 -->238 00:26:08,870 -->237 00:26:01,200 -->236 00:25:57,030 -->235 00:25:51,660 -->234 00:25:46,500 -->233 00:25:35,080 -->232 00:25:30,380 -->231 00:25:25,820 -->230 00:25:21,140 -->229 00:25:16,600 -->228 00:25:10,790 -->227 00:25:04,740 -->226 00:24:54,150 -->225 00:24:45,510 -->224 00:24:43,080 -->223 00:24:37,110 -->222 00:24:34,440 -->221 00:24:28,740 -->220 00:24:18,960 -->219 00:24:12,660 -->218 00:24:02,640 -->217 00:23:56,790 -->216 00:23:51,030 -->215 00:23:42,130 -->214 00:23:37,680 -->213 00:23:29,430 -->212 00:23:18,300 -->211 00:23:10,910 -->210 00:23:01,680 -->209 00:22:55,110 -->208 00:22:49,290 -->207 00:22:44,530 -->206 00:22:32,350 -->205 00:22:26,910 -->204 00:22:22,440 -->203 00:22:16,000 -->202 00:22:08,640 -->201 00:22:01,080 -->200 00:21:52,410 -->199 00:21:45,300 -->198 00:21:37,500 -->197 00:21:31,890 -->196 00:21:23,370 -->195 00:21:19,590 -->194 00:21:14,830 -->193 00:21:05,880 -->192 00:21:03,680 -->191 00:20:59,010 -->190 00:20:51,240 -->189 00:20:45,300 -->188 00:20:41,200 -->187 00:20:35,260 -->186 00:20:31,200 -->185 00:20:26,100 -->184 00:20:20,880 -->183 00:20:14,790 -->182 00:20:01,180 -->181 00:19:56,260 -->180 00:19:47,960 -->179 00:19:35,200 -->178 00:19:34,000 -->177 00:19:27,270 -->176 00:19:19,500 -->175 00:19:14,730 -->174 00:19:11,810 -->173 00:19:06,090 -->172 00:18:57,770 -->171 00:18:52,710 -->170 00:18:48,090 -->169 00:18:39,240 -->168 00:18:30,910 -->167 00:18:24,920 -->166 00:18:16,760 -->165 00:18:09,350 -->164 00:18:02,730 -->163 00:17:57,590 -->162 00:17:53,600 -->161 00:17:49,640 -->160 00:17:43,780 -->159 00:17:33,850 -->158 00:17:25,600 -->157 00:17:17,360 -->156 00:17:11,490 -->155 00:17:05,280 -->154 00:16:59,460 -->153 00:16:49,650 -->152 00:16:43,740 -->151 00:16:35,040 -->150 00:16:27,120 -->149 00:16:18,630 -->148 00:16:13,090 -->147 00:16:06,410 -->146 00:15:54,830 -->145 00:15:40,910 -->144 00:15:33,450 -->143 00:15:24,980 -->142 00:15:13,190 -->141 00:15:04,070 -->140 00:15:02,600 -->139 00:14:53,020 -->138 00:14:51,080 -->137 00:14:40,910 -->136 00:14:38,540 -->135 00:14:33,570 -->134 00:14:26,000 -->133 00:14:18,800 -->132 00:14:09,890 -->131 00:14:01,860 -->130 00:13:58,070 -->129 00:13:51,260 -->128 00:13:47,300 -->127 00:13:41,090 -->126 00:13:36,410 -->125 00:13:30,350 -->124 00:13:24,500 -->123 00:13:18,410 -->122 00:13:11,420 -->121 00:13:04,490 -->120 00:12:59,270 -->119 00:12:54,620 -->118 00:12:49,470 -->117 00:12:42,890 -->116 00:12:35,930 -->115 00:12:29,690 -->114 00:12:21,800 -->113 00:12:13,430 -->112 00:12:05,300 -->111 00:11:58,430 -->110 00:11:54,170 -->109 00:11:48,140 -->108 00:11:42,950 -->107 00:11:36,080 -->106 00:11:31,310 -->105 00:11:27,650 -->104 00:11:23,730 -->103 00:11:16,790 -->102 00:11:07,430 -->101 00:11:01,160 -->100 00:10:52,470 -->99 00:10:43,250 -->98 00:10:38,530 -->97 00:10:32,400 -->96 00:10:28,200 -->95 00:10:23,650 -->94 00:10:19,590 -->93 00:10:13,710 -->92 00:10:10,520 -->91 00:10:00,210 -->90 00:09:52,770 -->89 00:09:45,340 -->88 00:09:40,540 -->87 00:09:33,460 -->86 00:09:26,410 -->85 00:09:19,510 -->84 00:09:13,330 -->83 00:09:06,040 -->82 00:09:01,900 -->81 00:08:57,580 -->80 00:08:50,710 -->79 00:08:44,110 -->78 00:08:35,500 -->77 00:08:31,480 -->76 00:08:25,630 -->75 00:08:18,970 -->74 00:08:10,930 -->73 00:08:02,050 -->72 00:07:55,120 -->71 00:07:48,970 -->70 00:07:39,490 -->69 00:07:32,290 -->68 00:07:24,810 -->67 00:07:19,140 -->66 00:07:15,060 -->65 00:07:08,970 -->64 00:07:05,100 -->63 00:06:59,070 -->62 00:06:57,700 -->61 00:06:51,350 -->60 00:06:43,320 -->59 00:06:33,180 -->58 00:06:22,280 -->57 00:06:16,830 -->56 00:06:10,450 -->55 00:06:02,490 -->54 00:05:56,520 -->53 00:05:48,790 -->52 00:05:42,690 -->51 00:05:39,120 -->50 00:05:33,570 -->49 00:05:25,860 -->48 00:05:17,760 -->47 00:05:09,450 -->46 00:05:04,230 -->45 00:04:57,840 -->44 00:04:49,950 -->43 00:04:40,050 -->42 00:04:36,060 -->41 00:04:29,330 -->40 00:04:23,740 -->39 00:04:18,880 -->38 00:04:11,920 -->37 00:04:07,540 -->36 00:04:02,230 -->35 00:03:57,300 -->34 00:03:48,870 -->33 00:03:38,040 -->32 00:03:29,760 -->31 00:03:21,900 -->30 00:03:11,710 -->29 00:03:05,170 -->28 00:03:01,350 -->27 00:02:54,450 -->26 00:02:49,710 -->25 00:02:43,800 -->24 00:02:39,330 -->23 00:02:35,080 -->22 00:02:24,600 -->21 00:02:20,160 -->20 00:02:12,970 -->19 00:02:07,240 -->18 00:01:57,790 -->17 00:01:46,890 -->16 00:01:43,410 -->15 00:01:39,460 -->14 00:01:31,410 -->13 00:01:23,160 -->12 00:01:17,700 -->11 00:01:11,820 -->10 00:01:06,140 -->9 00:01:00,840 -->8 00:00:56,490 -->7 00:00:51,600 -->6 00:00:43,800 -->5 00:00:39,390 -->4 00:00:33,710 -->3 00:00:28,710 -->2 00:00:23,610 -->1 00:00:10,890 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Natalie Garrett, Private Secretary to the Chief Scientist at the Met Office. You can find out more about Natalie on the Met Office website, and the British Federation of Women Graduates scholarships.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:23,690 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,690 --> 00:00:27,050 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:27,050 --> 00:00:31,490 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and today I'm going to be talking to Dr. Natalie Garrett. 4 00:00:31,490 --> 00:00:35,900 Natalie currently works as a private secretary to the Met Office chief scientist. 5 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:41,120 So, Natalie, are you happy to introduce yourself? My name is Natalie Garrett. 6 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,980 I work at the Met office as the private secretary to our chief scientist. 7 00:00:45,980 --> 00:00:48,650 I've been in this role since January of this year. 8 00:00:48,650 --> 00:01:01,070 So more than half my time in this position has now been spent working from home, which has been an interesting kind of journey like before January. 9 00:01:01,070 --> 00:01:06,530 I was working in the international climate services team still at the Met office, 10 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:12,480 and I had been in that position for, I think, the best part of four years. 11 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,400 And the purpose of that role was essentially to manage a project that was all 12 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:23,820 about translating climate science into actionable information for decision makers. 13 00:01:23,820 --> 00:01:31,260 But prior to all of that, I was a postdoc at the University of Exeter working in the Biomedical Physics Group. 14 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:39,150 And you might notice that there's a bit of a Segway there from biomedical physics to climate and weather science. 15 00:01:39,150 --> 00:01:45,480 And it's not necessarily immediately apparent what exactly unifies those two areas. 16 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:54,790 But broadly, what motivates me at work is to do something that's meaningful and that will have a positive impact on society. 17 00:01:54,790 --> 00:02:05,950 So the work I did at the university was primarily translating biomedical advances into kind of taking physical interpretations of them. 18 00:02:05,950 --> 00:02:16,650 So one of the major projects I worked on my role was to provide mechanistic validation for the claims that were being made in patents for novel 19 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:21,210 nano medicines that were aimed to treat things like alzhiemers and brain cancer. 20 00:02:21,210 --> 00:02:27,690 And having lost a family member to brain cancer, that was obviously an area that was very close to my heart. 21 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:33,200 So sometimes I feel like my career has been a little bit of a random walk. 22 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,140 But ultimately, I've always done what I thought sounded interesting, 23 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:46,230 and I perhaps naively assumed that job opportunities would make themselves apparent to me along the way. 24 00:02:46,230 --> 00:02:54,160 And I've been very fortunate and privileged that that has worked out for me. 25 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,120 That's brilliant and really interesting to hear about that. 26 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:06,700 That from kind of being a postdoc in researching inside inside a university to moving outside. 27 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:11,710 I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experience of that transition. 28 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:17,980 So what it was like kind of moving to applying for jobs outside of academia and and how you 29 00:03:17,980 --> 00:03:26,780 find how different you find working in it in a different kind of research environment is. 30 00:03:26,780 --> 00:03:36,470 So I had been working as a postdoc at the University of Exeter since late 2009. 31 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:42,050 And by the time I left, it was January 2016. 32 00:03:42,050 --> 00:03:48,650 So that is quite a substantial chunk of my professional career was spent working, 33 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:55,100 doing the whole postdoc merry go round where you go from contract to contract without much job security. 34 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:59,660 I think a lot of people in academia can empathise with that kind of situation. 35 00:03:59,660 --> 00:04:06,110 You don't have much job security. You're trying really hard to set yourself apart from your peer group to improve your 36 00:04:06,110 --> 00:04:13,170 chances of perhaps getting a lectureship or getting a fellowship or a grant and. 37 00:04:13,170 --> 00:04:18,720 I was in a situation where leaving Exeter wasn't really an option for me. 38 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:27,470 So I was thinking about how I could give myself the best chances of securing a lectureship. 39 00:04:27,470 --> 00:04:35,490 at Exeter University and a lectureship position came up in my research group working for different P.I. and I went for it. 40 00:04:35,490 --> 00:04:45,270 And although I scored highest at interview and my presentation, I was told that I couldn't bring added value because I was already there. 41 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:50,850 And that was quite a bitter pill to swallow at the time that I can see what they mean in hindsight. 42 00:04:50,850 --> 00:05:04,350 And if I had applied to other universities for lectureships it may have been more feasible for me to negotiate or leverage contract at the university. 43 00:05:04,350 --> 00:05:12,660 At any rate, I was encouraged to apply for fellowships and I was given the opportunity of a tenured position at the end. 44 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:17,730 If I were successful in that. But ultimately I started looking at other opportunities. 45 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:23,630 I saw a job at the Met office. Now, my background did not involve coding. 46 00:05:23,630 --> 00:05:32,060 It did not really involve modelling. So I was quite surprised when I saw a job advert that I felt I could apply for. 47 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:37,410 Hence, this role was titled Senior European Climate Service Coordinator. 48 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:45,710 This is quite a mouthful. The skills they were looking for those the usual planning organisation, 49 00:05:45,710 --> 00:05:50,330 time management, which if you have a PhD and you've actually managed to complete it. 50 00:05:50,330 --> 00:05:58,160 You have that in spades. But it also specifically said that they needed good interpersonal skills with evidence of communicating with and developing 51 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:06,110 productive working relationships with a range of stakeholders and also communicating complex information into plain English. 52 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:17,060 Now, interestingly, during my PhD, I had been very, very keen as an outreach ambassador of the university. 53 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:23,750 I was in the STEM network and I participated in things like I'm a scientist get me out of here. 54 00:06:23,750 --> 00:06:32,150 And soapbox, science and three minute wonder pretty much any scientific outreach competition that you could engage in. 55 00:06:32,150 --> 00:06:36,380 I had a go at and I was very passionate about scientific outreach. 56 00:06:36,380 --> 00:06:45,890 In fact, the Institute of Physics had me as a guest lecturer and I was travelling all around the south west of the UK giving talks to some. 57 00:06:45,890 --> 00:06:49,550 I think in total it was about two thousand schoolchildren talking about my research. 58 00:06:49,550 --> 00:06:53,120 So this is something that was very, very passionate, was very passionate about. 59 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:59,840 But my boss had said to me, you only need to do one piece of outreach a year for it to count on your CV. 60 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:04,310 And at that point, you should stop and focus your efforts elsewhere. 61 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:08,660 I didn't really listen to him and I just carried on doing what I wanted to, to do what I was passionate about. 62 00:07:08,660 --> 00:07:15,260 And in the end, because of that, it put me in a really good position to apply for this job at the Met office. 63 00:07:15,260 --> 00:07:17,150 Additionally, what I was doing, my postdoc, 64 00:07:17,150 --> 00:07:25,490 I founded the early career researcher network within the college and that was bringing together early career scientists 65 00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:33,800 and helping people work together to improve the quality of the jobs to improve their chances of securing funding. 66 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,940 We had career workshops. We had the guest lecturers come in and give seminars. 67 00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:45,180 We had occasions where we bought pizza and blitzed the Internet trying to find funding opportunities. 68 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:49,310 Because I built that network, I had experience of network management. 69 00:07:49,310 --> 00:07:53,670 I had experience of engagement. And I'd set up a social media channel for that, too. 70 00:07:53,670 --> 00:08:00,090 So I had all these communication stakeholder network management skills, which made me the ideal candidate for this job. 71 00:08:00,090 --> 00:08:05,620 And this is all stuff that was done in the margins. I was discouraged from doing so. 72 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:12,800 Yeah, it's an interesting one. I don't know if it would always work out that way. But ultimately, do things that matter to you? 73 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,060 Is that what I would say if you're considering academia? 74 00:08:17,060 --> 00:08:21,590 Ultimately, you may not find yourself in a position where you have a science communication job, 75 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:28,100 but the skills you gain doing science communication, are massively transferable outside of academia. 76 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:33,170 So I was surprised when I was offered the job at the Met office. 77 00:08:33,170 --> 00:08:36,120 I'm always quite negative about my performance in interview. 78 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,720 But actually, my new boss said that it was one of the best interviews he's ever sat in on. 79 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,700 So I think that might be typical of academics. 80 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:51,650 I think we are quite hard on ourselves and our performance and always focus on 81 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:55,910 what we could do better and not necessarily so much of what we've done well. 82 00:08:55,910 --> 00:09:03,730 I think that's an area that I'm trying to work on in terms of personal confidence and that feeling of imposter syndrome. 83 00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:11,310 Moving from academia to the civil service, because the Met office is where within the civil service was very different. 84 00:09:11,310 --> 00:09:21,510 And my first day on the job, I got on an aeroplane to go to Paris for the Kick-Off meeting for the project and had an overnight stay. 85 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:25,780 And it was lovely meeting all these wonderful people that are very passionate about their work. 86 00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:30,060 And the next day we came back to Exeter and they said, well, you've had quite a busy day. 87 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:37,210 You should probably take some time off in lieu. This is not a concept that usually gets in academia. 88 00:09:37,210 --> 00:09:52,450 The actual contracted hours. So my second day on the job, I came home mid-afternoon and ran myself a bubble bath with the blessing, nay the 89 00:09:52,450 --> 00:10:00,340 It was it was pretty great. It was pretty great. And to be honest, that feeling that you should be working, you should be writing. 90 00:10:00,340 --> 00:10:03,640 More that you should be doing. It took a while for me to get over that. 91 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,340 And I think about two months into my job, I was walking through town one day and I glanced up. 92 00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:16,120 If you've been in Exeter High Street and you look up the hill to streatham campus at the university, you can see the physics tower. 93 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,420 You can see it from everywhere, in Exeter You can never get away from its shadow. 94 00:10:19,420 --> 00:10:26,200 If you feel like, oh, I should be working on my paper, I should be working on my thesis. That's the first time that I looked up at that. 95 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,740 This has no power over me. No, I'm allowed to have fun. 96 00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:35,980 I'm allowed to have a work life balance because there's so much in there that I think is really, 97 00:10:35,980 --> 00:10:41,580 really important about, you know, feelings of imposter syndrome and work life balance. 98 00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:48,490 And I think of somebody as well that used to be an academic and admittedly is in an academic related role. 99 00:10:48,490 --> 00:11:00,210 There's something about different roles that are kind of more amenable, perhaps, or more easily to to a better work life balance. 100 00:11:00,210 --> 00:11:03,310 Well, having you know, you said about going from kind of contract. 101 00:11:03,310 --> 00:11:09,910 So you've obviously had a few kind of applications and interviews for academic or academic research roles, 102 00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:18,820 as well as the Met office was the application and interview process, particularly different to your experience in academia. 103 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:23,320 So although I have had multiple postdoc posts at the university, 104 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,240 they were all working for the same PI because the work I was doing was so specialised. 105 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,760 So I did have to apply and go through the interview process that given that there were 106 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,570 basically at the time a handful of people in the world that could do that job. 107 00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:43,280 I didn't feel that worried. So, yeah, that was pretty straightforward. 108 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,190 So the Met office interview was quite nerve wracking by comparison. 109 00:11:48,190 --> 00:11:52,200 I mean, they were very lovely. They did everything they could to make me feel at ease. 110 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:58,060 But I think from a very young age, I've always been thrown into the mix with a variety of different people, 111 00:11:58,060 --> 00:12:01,180 different ages, and just encouraged to socialise. 112 00:12:01,180 --> 00:12:08,050 My father was very active in local politics and I was kind of co-opted into helping him out, handing out kind of things at events. 113 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:16,500 So the idea of talking to strangers, I just lost all fear of that and talking to thousands and thousands of people about my science, 114 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:21,370 a kind of public speaking becomes second nature when you do that enough. 115 00:12:21,370 --> 00:12:25,550 So interviews didn't have the same kind of effect on me. 116 00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:33,880 And I've discovered a tip, a trick. If you convince yourself that you're excited rather than afraid, then it becomes a lot more manageable. 117 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:39,400 And then you can actually enjoy it. So if you ever have a public speaking engagement and you feel nervous, you go, Oh, I'm so excited. 118 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,420 Imagine it's like a roller coaster or something. So, yeah, the Met office interview 119 00:12:43,420 --> 00:12:51,160 I was massively overprepared. I identified the area that I was weakest up and that was in my climates where 120 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,540 the science knowledge and I did an online free training course beforehand. 121 00:12:55,540 --> 00:13:02,920 And I printed off my certificates and I brought with me a folder with all kinds of things, 122 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,400 like copies of papers that published copies of my reference letters. 123 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:13,030 There's a whole range, a barrage of information. And none of it came out of my briefcase during the meeting, during the interview. 124 00:13:13,030 --> 00:13:18,790 But it was there and it helped me feel prepared. That's what I was going to ask because I do something similar. 125 00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:23,800 When I prepare for interviews, I do. I prepare and I have this kind of folder of lots of stuff that I never refer to. 126 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:32,320 But it's it's not necessarily about the kind of using that knowledge I need to be, but the feeling of it's kind of like psychological armour. 127 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:39,370 Yes. Yes. I think a lot of my life I've just expected there to be gatekeepers. 128 00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:44,110 So I've never been able to consider myself to be an artist or a photographer. 129 00:13:44,110 --> 00:13:49,750 But now I've had experience writing poetry to explain climate change with community groups, 130 00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:53,740 and I've had prizes for the photographs that I've created myself. 131 00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:57,700 So I know once said to me, hey, go, here's an award, here's a certificate. 132 00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:03,940 Here's an exam that you've passed. Therefore, you can call yourself a photographer, you can call yourself a poet or an artist. 133 00:14:03,940 --> 00:14:10,180 And because I've been so used to gatekeeping, because academia is all about gatekeeping, 134 00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:16,510 I think it's that does foster the whole imposter syndrome mentality. 135 00:14:16,510 --> 00:14:24,940 If you take yourself out of that headspace and realise, oh, maybe I can actually do these other things too, maybe I don't need someone's permission. 136 00:14:24,940 --> 00:14:32,320 What's your experience of that, working in the civil service? Does it still have that sense of gatekeeping or does it feel a little open? 137 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:39,490 It's interesting this so well, I guess there's a lot of bureaucracy in academia that my experience in academia was. 138 00:14:39,490 --> 00:14:45,670 It's very much the academics were doing everything they could to avoid, bureaucracy, as far as possible. 139 00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:54,700 Whereas my experience of the civil service? Is that bureaucracy is sort of embedded in the ways of working, and sometimes that's for good reasons. 140 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:58,840 And other times it's just because that's how it's always been done and people haven't questioned it. 141 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,720 So it makes change quite difficult at a corporate level. 142 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,560 If you have people's ways of working and mindset so embedded in a particular way of working. 143 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:18,460 Like my boss, the chief scientist was keen to get my impressions of the job within my first six months because he said, you come with fresh eyes. 144 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:23,590 You can tell us all the things that we're doing stupid or that don't make sense or that could be optimised. 145 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:27,900 But once you're in the six months and you stop questioning stuff. 146 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:33,320 Yeah. I completely yes, I can completely understand, we're saying. 147 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:40,670 So the. The job that you do now as a as a P.A, isn't it, to the chief scientist? 148 00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:45,060 Is that right? So it's a weird one. It's called private secretary. 149 00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:52,580 And so it's just to academics. They focus on the secretary and think that it's an administrative job. 150 00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:58,610 Whereas if so, my boss is the head of the chief scientist at the Met office. 151 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:03,320 He is also the head of the science and engineering profession at the met office. 152 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,600 That's said. And that comes under something called government, science and engineering profession. 153 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:16,310 And he's also on the chief scientific adviser at the CSA network with Patrick Vallance as its head. 154 00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:21,530 So. So Patrick Vallance is one of my boss's bosses, if you like, 155 00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:28,880 and I regularly attend meetings to represent the met office at the chief scientific adviser network meetings. 156 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:36,200 So the purpose of these is to make sure that all the science within the civil service within the UK is all joined up. 157 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,630 So you'll see these quite regularly with UK. All right. 158 00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:48,620 It's it's baffling how many connections and how many partners and how many stakeholders there were that the met office is involved with. 159 00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:53,810 A large part of my job is liasing with government and the government office, the science. 160 00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:58,280 I'm translating quite complex requests with very short deadlines. 161 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,540 Finding the right people within the met office to answer those questions. 162 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:05,360 Summarising the information into a briefing, giving it to the chief scientist. 163 00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:09,920 And then. Asking him what he wants, what action he wants to be taken from it. 164 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:20,150 So, for instance, I've seen in the news the Academy of Medical Sciences report that was that was created at the request of the Patrick 165 00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:27,770 Vallance and Chris Whitty for looking at what's the reasonable worst case scenario would be for COVID this winter. 166 00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:36,410 So the Met office fed in regarding seasonal forecasting and air quality and aspects that relate to met office expertise. 167 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:41,010 So I was involved in helping to coordinate our input to that report. 168 00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:45,740 And my boss was also present at the sage meeting where this was being discussed. 169 00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:49,770 So I had to help coordinate minutes and taking and so on. 170 00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:58,520 So it's that's just one aspect of the roles I take. I also produce regular scientific updates for within the Met office that we produce quarterly 171 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,440 briefings for all of us scientists we have in the region of six hundred scientists at the Met office. 172 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,690 And my boss is kind of at the head of that that up triangle. 173 00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:13,820 And so we have to try to provide updates to everybody on a regular basis. 174 00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:19,590 And it's just incredibly varied. I think about 50 percent of my my job is reactive. 175 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,710 So I never know what's going to come into my inbox. 176 00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:27,290 We might have a request coming straight from government asking us to provide a briefing on a particular topic, 177 00:18:27,290 --> 00:18:31,850 or it might be just regular normal work that's just going along, 178 00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:38,720 producing minutes for scientific management committees or for met office board meetings. 179 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:47,220 So it's what I enjoy most about this role. Is that because I'm the private secretary to the chief scientist, people just answer my email straightaway? 180 00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:51,380 I think when I leave this job, that probably won't be the case anymore. 181 00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:58,070 So another point to mention is that the private secretary roles aren't typically what you would expect as a lifetime position. 182 00:18:58,070 --> 00:19:01,520 The half life is between two and four years. It's a developmental opportunity. 183 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:09,500 So you get loads of opportunities to showcase your skills, which then enable you to better apply for a management position. 184 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:15,920 That's the aim of the role anyway. That's really interesting and it's really interesting to have that kind of. 185 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:23,360 Clear sense of. Clear sense of progression and direction, I guess, and I'm not saying that that, 186 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,470 you know, there was a clear kind of promotion route in academia, but it's not. 187 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:30,840 I think it looks like it's very clear cut. 188 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:41,280 In fact, is not, I think well by, to be honest when I say so, I'm going to backtrack a it when I applied to the Met office. 189 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:50,280 I tried to use all of the skills that I had been sort of instilled in me from the doctoral training college at the university. 190 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,940 Like, you need to negotiate your salary. You need to do this. You need to do that. 191 00:19:53,940 --> 00:20:00,430 I went and tried this out with the civil service and now you can try and negotiate your salary. 192 00:20:00,430 --> 00:20:02,640 But this is as far as we can go. That's just not. 193 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:08,910 It's so different to maybe applying for the private sector, you know, going to a business and trying to negotiate. 194 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:14,550 You probably have a lot more leeway that the civil service is so tied down they cannot make exceptions. 195 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:19,470 The met office doesn't have the flexibility to change the pay deal for new people coming. 196 00:20:19,470 --> 00:20:23,820 And that has to be everything has to be auditable and fair and fair enough. 197 00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:31,950 You know, it's it's taxpayers money. So I tried to negotiate my salary and completely failed. 198 00:20:31,950 --> 00:20:35,800 I said, well, how about this? You offer a relocation bursary. 199 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:41,290 And I didn't have to relocate. Could you give me that instead? Is it? No, because that's all provided  onreceipts. 200 00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:46,980 OK. So I had to manage my expectations a little bit. Essentially, I took a 20 percent pay cut. 201 00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:51,870 Wow. To join the met office Yes. It was the very low end of what I was prepared to accept. 202 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:57,430 Which was sort of annoying. But the compensation package was also really good. 203 00:20:57,430 --> 00:21:02,100 And it was a permanent job. So it was it's a tricky one. 204 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:11,220 And it's not necessarily the right choice for everybody. But I've managed to it's quite competitive getting promotion within the met office. 205 00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:24,400 And it's a competitive. So depending on the year, if people who are regularly publishing scientific output in science and nature are up against you, 206 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:30,770 you may not stand a chance of actually getting information because it's judged based on merit and output and everything's graded. 207 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:38,330 So it's quite challenging compared with academia where it felt like you progress up the spine points and it's relatively straightforward. 208 00:21:38,330 --> 00:21:43,540 I mean, that was my experience of it as postdoc. It's not everybody's. 209 00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:45,380 So there seemed to be a lot of, you know, 210 00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:53,920 things coming out that are quite different about the working environment and the kind of work that you're doing and the kind of. 211 00:21:53,920 --> 00:22:05,330 What the similarities were. What really kind of carries across from your experience as a as a researcher at a university into the role you're in now? 212 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:09,410 So the biggest similarity is the passion that people have for the work that they do. 213 00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:15,860 The Met office. It's just so lovely to log on and every day and locg on 214 00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:21,830 We have a platform online where people can discuss variety of topics is not quite social media, 215 00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:25,460 but people share things from, for instance, the pictures of their cats. 216 00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:33,670 We have a cat appreciation forum and we've also got weather photographs and people asking questions about science and technology. 217 00:22:33,670 --> 00:22:39,140 People are just so keen to help each other and they're so keen to share their enthusiasm. 218 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:48,560 And you can end up going down rabbit holes. And it's really lovely that I think academia, you get paid essentially to think a lot of the time. 219 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,290 This is how I've seen it. 220 00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:56,990 And there aren't necessarily that many jobs in the world where you get that freedom to just pursue an idea and see where it takes you. 221 00:22:56,990 --> 00:23:02,600 And we have a certain amount of time, I think, to add up to 20 percent of our time is for development. 222 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,690 So if you agree with your line manager that you want to learn a skill in a completely 223 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:09,920 different area that might one day align with where you ultimately want to go in your career. 224 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:20,040 You have the freedom to do that. And that kind of freedom to learn and to develop and share your enthusiasm and. 225 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:25,860 I guess it's peer to peer learning that that's very similar to academia. 226 00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:35,380 One big difference I've noticed is I've not seen so many examples of that kind of toxic. 227 00:23:35,380 --> 00:23:41,180 Relationship where some people appear to be friendly, and then we'll take your idea and then publish before you. 228 00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:44,530 I've not seen that at the Met office. I'm not saying it doesn't necessarily happen, 229 00:23:44,530 --> 00:23:52,480 but my experience has been that people are in it together for the group benefit rather than their own individual benefit. 230 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,330 Perhaps that's naive. Perhaps I've just said a sheltered experience. 231 00:23:55,330 --> 00:24:02,980 But as a for instance, at one point I had a handover between two managers because one was leaving alone, was taking me on, 232 00:24:02,980 --> 00:24:10,240 and I was sat in a room and these two people were not quite arguing, but they were just very, very focussed. 233 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,220 And trying to discover the best ways for me to develop in the direction that I wanted to develop. 234 00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:19,140 And I feel I've never had this before. I've never felt so and nurtured. 235 00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:24,010 I had a line manager is trying to find opportunities for me because before it felt 236 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:28,420 like I was doing things whenever I found an opportunity that I knew would benefit me, 237 00:24:28,420 --> 00:24:30,820 but not my line manager in academia. 238 00:24:30,820 --> 00:24:37,030 I had to do the other stuff kind of behind his back because I knew that he would never give me the go ahead for it. 239 00:24:37,030 --> 00:24:44,890 And in fact, there was one occasion when I got a travel grant from the Royal Society to do some independent research in Australia, 240 00:24:44,890 --> 00:24:49,480 and my P.I. turned around and said, well, that doesn't benefit me, so you're going to have to do it. 241 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:55,820 on your annual leave. Wow. And I naively thought that he was allowed to make that call 242 00:24:55,820 --> 00:25:01,720 But a few years later, I was talking to the head of school and mentioned this, and he said, well, that that's not OK. 243 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,520 You should come to me about that. But I naively thought, well, he wouldn't tell me something that wasn't true. 244 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:07,960 So another another top tip. 245 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:17,380 A don't assume that your line manager necessarily has your best interests at heart or B knows what is best or what can be done for you. 246 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:19,760 So do ask around to ask other people. 247 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:28,330 And it's it's amazing that in spite of that pushback, you still continued with the outreach work and the ECR network, 248 00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:32,140 which actually became so fundamental to help you move forward. 249 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:38,110 I was wondering what other things you did, maybe as part of your research, but also, you know, on the fringes, 250 00:25:38,110 --> 00:25:44,140 let that have been really important or formative in kind of helping you move forward with your career. 251 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:55,150 So instead of procrastinating in the traditional sense, I used to just look for competitions and awards and things that I could. 252 00:25:55,150 --> 00:26:01,270 It felt like it was wasting my time because I've been indoctrinated in the idea that if I'm not actively working on a paper in some way, 253 00:26:01,270 --> 00:26:08,600 then I'm not doing anything productive, which is quite a toxic one set in itself. 254 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,570 So, for instance, I discovered the British Federation of Women graduates. 255 00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:19,830 Is that something you've heard of? No, never say I've never heard of it before until I was Googling for opportunities. 256 00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:26,350 So they offer scholarships for academic excellence and they also offer hardship bursaries. 257 00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:30,250 Now, I haven't actually checked that they still offer these. But in 2009, 258 00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:36,520 they sent me to it and I managed to secure myself five and a half thousand pounds for academic 259 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:43,630 excellence as part of the Women British Federation of Women Graduates Academic Awards in 2009. 260 00:26:43,630 --> 00:26:52,480 And if you have experience of securing grant money, even if it's a competition like that, then that's always going to look good on your CV. 261 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:58,690 And as I said, I got a international travel grant to go to Australia. 262 00:26:58,690 --> 00:27:02,080 So I went to Melbourne and I was looking at malaria. 263 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:09,450 I'm trying to detect it using spectroscopy and weirdly using butterfly wings as a substrate for doing this. 264 00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:19,510 So that was quite a bizarre. When people say, explain what you did for your PhD, I kind of go hmmmm the experience of the early career researcher network. 265 00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:23,830 It also gave me the opportunity to apply for funding from within the university. 266 00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:32,380 And then I also ran competitions for outreach activities and online poster competitions. 267 00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:40,990 So I was then able to get experience of managing sort of grant funding so I could say that I've had that kind of experience, 268 00:27:40,990 --> 00:27:42,340 depending on where you want spend up. 269 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:50,670 If you think I want to be able to tick various boxes for different types of job, I've these opportunities enabled me to do that. 270 00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:54,580 And in kind of roundabout way, even though my main main job didn't. 271 00:27:54,580 --> 00:28:02,170 I was also part of the working group for the Athena Swan Initiative at the School of Physics. 272 00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:07,070 So equality and diversity has always been very important to me to. 273 00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:11,910 And I think it's, you know, really interesting as several of the things you've said, like you said early on, about, 274 00:28:11,910 --> 00:28:18,960 you know, if you've done a research degree, you've got time management and project management and everything in spades. 275 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,160 But actually, you know, 276 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:30,900 there's other fundamental skills which in some ways you just do need to go outside of that initial kind of bubble of your research to develop that. 277 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:39,390 And absolutely and it's really interesting to hear you talk about actually the motivation for that for you was just a follow. 278 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:44,220 Follow your interests. Yeah, the things that mattered to me most. 279 00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:49,140 I think another thing that helped me was going to conferences by myself. 280 00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:57,380 And not with my research group and not with anybody else from the university, because it forces you to stop talking to the same people. 281 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:03,760 Because conferences are massive networking opportunity. But it's so hard to make inroads. 282 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:11,670 I struggled a bit initially because it felt very cliquey and it's hard as an outsider just to essentially barge in on someone's conversations. 283 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:14,610 Hi. Can I introduce myself? 284 00:29:14,610 --> 00:29:25,770 But it was some it was because of going to a conference by myself that I met Baden Wood of Monash University in Melbourne. 285 00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:29,250 And he was the one that suggested I apply for Royal Society travel grant 286 00:29:29,250 --> 00:29:33,990 which is why I was then able to demonstrate some independent research and have 287 00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:38,580 a first solo publication without my P.I. from University of Exeter on it. 288 00:29:38,580 --> 00:29:43,020 So these chance meetings are so important. 289 00:29:43,020288 00:29:38,580 -->287 00:29:33,990 -->286 00:29:29,250 -->285 00:29:25,770 -->284 00:29:14,610 -->283 00:29:11,670 -->282 00:29:03,760 -->281 00:28:57,380 -->280 00:28:49,140 -->279 00:28:44,220 -->278 00:28:39,390 -->277 00:28:30,900 -->276 00:28:20,160 -->275 00:28:18,960 -->274 00:28:11,910 -->273 00:28:07,070 -->272 00:28:02,170 -->271 00:27:54,580 -->270 00:27:50,670 -->269 00:27:42,340 -->268 00:27:40,990 -->267 00:27:32,380 -->266 00:27:23,830 -->265 00:27:19,510 -->264 00:27:09,450 -->263 00:27:02,080 -->262 00:26:58,690 -->261 00:26:52,480 -->260 00:26:43,630 -->259 00:26:36,520 -->258 00:26:30,250 -->257 00:26:26,350 -->256 00:26:19,830 -->255 00:26:13,570 -->254 00:26:08,600 -->253 00:26:01,270 -->252 00:25:55,150 -->251 00:25:44,140 -->250 00:25:38,110 -->249 00:25:32,140 -->248 00:25:28,330 -->247 00:25:19,760 -->246 00:25:17,380 -->245 00:25:07,960 -->244 00:25:06,520 -->243 00:25:01,720 -->242 00:24:55,820 -->241 00:24:49,480 -->240 00:24:44,890 -->239 00:24:37,030 -->238 00:24:30,820 -->237 00:24:28,420 -->236 00:24:24,010 -->235 00:24:19,140 -->234 00:24:15,220 -->233 00:24:10,240 -->232 00:24:02,980 -->231 00:23:55,330 -->230 00:23:52,480 -->229 00:23:44,530 -->228 00:23:41,180 -->227 00:23:35,380 -->226 00:23:25,860 -->225 00:23:20,040 -->224 00:23:09,920 -->223 00:23:05,690 -->222 00:23:02,600 -->221 00:22:56,990 -->220 00:22:50,290 -->219 00:22:48,560 -->218 00:22:39,140 -->217 00:22:33,670 -->216 00:22:25,460 -->215 00:22:21,830 -->214 00:22:15,860 -->213 00:22:09,410 -->212 00:22:05,330 -->211 00:21:53,920 -->210 00:21:45,380 -->209 00:21:43,540 -->208 00:21:38,330 -->207 00:21:30,770 -->206 00:21:24,400 -->205 00:21:11,220 -->204 00:21:02,100 -->203 00:20:57,430 -->202 00:20:51,870 -->201 00:20:46,980 -->200 00:20:41,290 -->199 00:20:35,800 -->198 00:20:31,950 -->197 00:20:23,820 -->196 00:20:19,470 -->195 00:20:14,550 -->194 00:20:08,910 -->193 00:20:02,640 -->192 00:20:00,430 -->191 00:19:53,940 -->190 00:19:50,280 -->189 00:19:41,280 -->188 00:19:30,840 -->187 00:19:28,470 -->186 00:19:23,360 -->185 00:19:15,920 -->184 00:19:09,500 -->183 00:19:01,520 -->182 00:18:58,070 -->181 00:18:51,380 -->180 00:18:47,220 -->179 00:18:38,720 -->178 00:18:31,850 -->177 00:18:27,290 -->176 00:18:21,710 -->175 00:18:19,590 -->174 00:18:13,820 -->173 00:18:08,690 -->172 00:18:03,440 -->171 00:17:58,520 -->170 00:17:49,770 -->169 00:17:45,740 -->168 00:17:41,010 -->167 00:17:36,410 -->166 00:17:27,770 -->165 00:17:20,150 -->164 00:17:09,920 -->163 00:17:05,360 -->162 00:17:01,540 -->161 00:16:58,280 -->160 00:16:53,810 -->159 00:16:48,620 -->158 00:16:41,630 -->157 00:16:36,200 -->156 00:16:28,880 -->155 00:16:21,530 -->154 00:16:16,310 -->153 00:16:08,600 -->152 00:16:03,320 -->151 00:15:58,610 -->150 00:15:52,580 -->149 00:15:45,060 -->148 00:15:40,670 -->147 00:15:33,320 -->146 00:15:27,900 -->145 00:15:23,590 -->144 00:15:18,460 -->143 00:15:09,560 -->142 00:15:04,720 -->141 00:14:58,840 -->140 00:14:54,700 -->139 00:14:45,670 -->138 00:14:39,490 -->137 00:14:32,320 -->136 00:14:24,940 -->135 00:14:16,510 -->134 00:14:10,180 -->133 00:14:03,940 -->132 00:13:57,700 -->131 00:13:53,740 -->130 00:13:49,750 -->129 00:13:44,110 -->128 00:13:39,370 -->127 00:13:32,320 -->126 00:13:23,800 -->125 00:13:18,790 -->124 00:13:13,030 -->123 00:13:07,400 -->122 00:13:02,920 -->121 00:12:55,540 -->120 00:12:51,160 -->119 00:12:43,420 -->118 00:12:39,400 -->117 00:12:33,880 -->116 00:12:25,550 -->115 00:12:21,370 -->114 00:12:16,500 -->113 00:12:08,050 -->112 00:12:01,180 -->111 00:11:58,060 -->110 00:11:52,200 -->109 00:11:48,190 -->108 00:11:43,280 -->107 00:11:37,570 -->106 00:11:33,760 -->105 00:11:28,240 -->104 00:11:23,320 -->103 00:11:18,820 -->102 00:11:09,910 -->101 00:11:03,310 -->100 00:11:00,210 -->99 00:10:48,490 -->98 00:10:41,580 -->97 00:10:35,980 -->96 00:10:29,740 -->95 00:10:26,200 -->94 00:10:19,420 -->93 00:10:16,120 -->92 00:10:09,340 -->91 00:10:03,640 -->90 00:10:00,340 -->89 00:09:52,450 -->88 00:09:37,210 -->87 00:09:30,060 -->86 00:09:25,780 -->85 00:09:21,510 -->84 00:09:11,310 -->83 00:09:03,730 -->82 00:08:55,910 -->81 00:08:51,650 -->80 00:08:46,700 -->79 00:08:41,720 -->78 00:08:36,120 -->77 00:08:33,170 -->76 00:08:28,100 -->75 00:08:21,590 -->74 00:08:17,060 -->73 00:08:12,800 -->72 00:08:05,620 -->71 00:08:00,090 -->70 00:07:53,670 -->69 00:07:49,310 -->68 00:07:45,180 -->67 00:07:37,940 -->66 00:07:33,800 -->65 00:07:25,490 -->64 00:07:17,150 -->63 00:07:15,260 -->62 00:07:08,660 -->61 00:07:04,310 -->60 00:06:59,840 -->59 00:06:53,120 -->58 00:06:49,550 -->57 00:06:45,890 -->56 00:06:36,380 -->55 00:06:32,150 -->54 00:06:23,750 -->53 00:06:17,060 -->52 00:06:06,110 -->51 00:05:58,160 -->50 00:05:50,330 -->49 00:05:45,710 -->48 00:05:37,410 -->47 00:05:32,060 -->46 00:05:23,630 -->45 00:05:17,730 -->44 00:05:12,660 -->43 00:05:04,350 -->42 00:04:50,850 -->41 00:04:45,270 -->40 00:04:35,490 -->39 00:04:27,470 -->38 00:04:18,720 -->37 00:04:13,170 -->36 00:04:06,110 -->35 00:03:59,660 -->34 00:03:55,100 -->33 00:03:48,650 -->32 00:03:42,050 -->31 00:03:36,470 -->30 00:03:26,780 -->29 00:03:17,980 -->28 00:03:11,710 -->27 00:03:06,700 -->26 00:02:58,120 -->25 00:02:54,160 -->24 00:02:46,230 -->23 00:02:39,140 -->22 00:02:33,200 -->21 00:02:27,690 -->20 00:02:21,210 -->19 00:02:16,650 -->18 00:02:05,950 -->17 00:01:54,790 -->16 00:01:45,480 -->15 00:01:39,150 -->14 00:01:31,260 -->13 00:01:23,820 -->12 00:01:17,400 -->11 00:01:12,480 -->10 00:01:06,530 -->9 00:01:01,070 -->8 00:00:48,650 -->7 00:00:45,980 -->6 00:00:41,120 -->5 00:00:35,900 -->4 00:00:31,490 -->3 00:00:27,050 -->2 00:00:23,690 -->1 00:00:10,880 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Celia Butler, Senior Applications Engineer at Synopsys Inc.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,870 --> 00:00:23,530 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College   2 00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:27,580 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.   3 00:00:27,580 --> 00:00:34,570 I'm Kelly Preevce And today, I'll be talking to Dr Celia Butler, who is currently senior applications engineer at Synopsis,   4 00:00:34,570 --> 00:00:41,380 having graduated with her PhD in physics in 2012. Celia, you happy to introduce yourself?   5 00:00:41,380 --> 00:00:53,080 Hello, my name's Celia Butler and I did my PhD in Microwave Metamaterials in the electro magnetic materials group at the University of Exeter   6 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:58,870 which is part of the physics department or it was at the time. And now I work for synopsis   7 00:00:58,870 --> 00:01:03,740 I'm a senior applications engineer with the simplewear support team.   8 00:01:03,740 --> 00:01:14,370 And what I do is I provide support for a software package that allows you to take 3D image data and like scans from MRI,   9 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:24,670 and CT and turn it into a computer model and you can do all sorts of things with that computer model from 3D printing to finite   10 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:34,030 element analysis all the way through to just simple visualisations to learn something about that data that you're inspecting.   11 00:01:34,030 --> 00:01:42,490 Amazing. So can you tell me a little bit about the transition from doing your research degree into the current role?   12 00:01:42,490 --> 00:01:50,050 Did you have any were there any jobs that you took in between or was it a straight move?   13 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:59,860 Yes. So when I left my PhD, I actually went into a job which sort of spanned the gap between academia and industry.   14 00:01:59,860 --> 00:02:10,510 So officially, it was a postdoc role, but I was actually more of a research and development engineer with a pre-spin out company.   15 00:02:10,510 --> 00:02:15,760 So it was still part of the university and it took on a role.   16 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,120 kind of like a technical consultancy?   17 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:30,610 So like an R&D consultancy role. And my specific area was to look at improving radio frequency identification tagging.   18 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:38,690 So RFID tagging is now quite popular, popular. You see it all over the place in tags, in clothes shops.   19 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:44,440 RFID tags are embedded into shoes. When you buy them all sorts of things.   20 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:50,860 But the specific area that I was looking at was how to tag structures that have a lot of   21 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:56,320 metal in them because essentially they're an antenna and when you place them on metal,   22 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:02,290 they don't work very well. And I was looking at tagging RFID circuit boards.   23 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:08,890 So these circuit boards have very high value and you really try to understand what you can do.   24 00:03:08,890 --> 00:03:16,420 So I worked with a few different people locally to try and address this problem,   25 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:22,490 using some of the knowledge from my PhD, but also past experience from before that as well.   26 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:32,320 And after that role, I left it and started a new position for a company called Subten Systems.   27 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:40,660 Now, this was a very small Start-Up company, possibly the best and most exciting research I have ever done.   28 00:03:40,660 --> 00:03:46,480 It was looking to create wireless Ethernet bridges.   29 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:52,780 What that means is point to point, a transmission of data, at very, very high frequencies.   30 00:03:52,780 --> 00:04:03,910 So in the millimetre wave region. And this was so exciting because I was quite new to the R&D world and I was given a lot of responsibility,   31 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:08,770 but also worked in an amazing team and we just got things done.   32 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:15,910 It was fantastic. But unfortunately, like a lot of start-ups, it didn't make it.   33 00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:22,800 And I had to make the decision to leave. Possibly the hardest decision of my life.   34 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,390 But yes. So I left subten systems and that fantastic team.   35 00:04:28,390 --> 00:04:33,460 And then I found a job in the centre of Exeter working for at the time, simplewear   36 00:04:33,460 --> 00:04:42,580 which were, again, a small company, not really a Start-Up, but about 30, 40 people.   37 00:04:42,580 --> 00:04:49,060 And from there. This company was bought out by synopsis.   38 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:54,660 But my job role has stayed pretty consistent. Most of the way through.   39 00:04:54,660 --> 00:05:09,100 And I actually I'm able to use a lot of my experience from my career, but also interests outside of work to perform my job, which is it's just a.   40 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:13,810 Varied and keeps me on my toes most of the time.   41 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:20,610 That sounds amazing. And in a short space of time, you've worked in quite a lot of different.   42 00:05:20,610 --> 00:05:30,280 Different organisations. So what was it like making that transition from your phd into a.   43 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:40,560 Non-academic Role did. Did you always know you wanted a job outside of academia and doing research in industry or so?   44 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:51,050 I think when I did my PhD, I really enjoyed my time doing the research element before I did my PhD.   45 00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:53,390 I worked in industry for a few years.   46 00:05:53,390 --> 00:06:03,630 So I was very aware of what it was like to work in a team doing commercial R&D as opposed to quite academic research.   47 00:06:03,630 --> 00:06:11,390 And it is very different. And I preferred the industrial research, the kind of work.   48 00:06:11,390 --> 00:06:16,610 Working towards one product or one specific goal,   49 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:24,680 but also having the flexibility to change projects or move into different roles within the same organisation.   50 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:33,950 Whereas in a PhD, you're very focussed on your path, your route to completing whatever your project might be.   51 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:35,960 I didn't find the transition very hard.   52 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:46,520 Moving from academic research to sort of industrial R&D, I think, because it's something that I knew and I was comfortable with.   53 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:58,220 I was looking forward to moving back. I also had very good kind of time management skills during the PhD.   54 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:03,680 I viewed it more as a day to day job because of my past experience.   55 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,660 There is one exception for that, which was when I was writing up.   56 00:07:08,660 --> 00:07:15,080 When I wrote up, the time really went out the window. I was just working all the time, it seemed.   57 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,850 But after that, I was really able to relax into that role,   58 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:27,080 to work with lots and lots of different people and to really focus on a product, which is what we were aiming for.   59 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,720 So, yeah, that worked really well for me. So, yeah.   60 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:38,030 Can you say a little bit more about what it what it is about doing R&D work in industry that you prefer to academia.   61 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:48,200 Is it that kind of. Is it something to do with the pace. Is it the pace of it or is it the kind of clearer sense of product, and impact.   62 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:57,200 So I think industrial R&D has a clear focus, a clear aim.   63 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:09,860 But people work slightly differently. In my experience in commercial R&D compared to academic R&D or academic research, in academic research,   64 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:21,890 you are striving to understand every single little part of whatever your problem or area might be in commercial R&D,   65 00:08:21,890 --> 00:08:28,430 although you need to understand what's going on. There's a limit to how much detail you need to go into.   66 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:38,300 You need to be able to solve the problem. But you are working towards a different goal and that goal will come to an end and it will change.   67 00:08:38,300 --> 00:08:44,150 There will be a second level, another stage or something that you are building on.   68 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:51,560 You need to understand this area. Make a decision. Produce a product, whatever that might be, and then you move on.   69 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,820 It's also quite normal to have multiple projects going on at the same time.   70 00:08:55,820 --> 00:09:10,100 And for me, I need that that ability to be able to switch between projects to keep me fully invested and sort of just enjoying what I do.   71 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:14,510 I need lots of little things to dip in and out of just to keep me entertained.   72 00:09:14,510 --> 00:09:19,830 I guess. Yes, I absolutely know that feeling.   73 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:30,870 So you said about the time management skills that you developed during your PhD and how important they are to what you do now.   74 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:34,950 And certainly if you're working in lots of different projects, I can really see that.   75 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:44,730 What other skills and experiences have you taken from your PhD that have really helped you with an R&D role in industry?   76 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:52,590 I think the biggest thing that I learnt during the PhD, as opposed to other roles I've been in before,   77 00:09:52,590 --> 00:10:01,110 was to be able to take a big project and be able to divide it up into small chunks that seem more manageable,   78 00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:06,840 because I think when you start the PhD, it can be a little bit overwhelming because you've got this three,   79 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:12,290 four years plus and you've got to produce something at the end of it.   80 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:14,160 But I'm not really sure what that is.   81 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:28,980 So to be able to take that huge idea, chop it up and then manage yourself to be able to to achieve whatever that might be is really important.   82 00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:34,980 And then the other thing, the sort of skills that I learnt.   83 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:43,800 I did a course on how to read sounds ridiculous, but how to speed read, how to take academic papers and top and tail.   84 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:49,710 And that's been really useful in other projects that I've done because in industrial research,   85 00:10:49,710 --> 00:10:55,260 you haven't got loads of time to do a full literature review on most projects.   86 00:10:55,260 --> 00:11:04,260 You need to extract the information that you need. Put it together and then use it in whatever form that might be.   87 00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:10,380 The other thing I think was really important is how to present robustly.   88 00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:17,150 So I've never really had a problem with the actual presenting side of things.   89 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:24,390 But the questioning was something that was sort of really drilled into me during my PhD   90 00:11:24,390 --> 00:11:26,640 That you need to know your subject well enough.   91 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:35,100 You need to have done your research to be able to answer questions robustly and kind of stand up to someone standing up and saying,   92 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:39,270 oh, I'm not I'm not sure about this. Tell me more or I don't believe that.   93 00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:48,720 What's your evidence for it? And to be able to stand there and and defend the research that you've done and to present a reasoned argument.   94 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,890 And I think that was probably the biggest thing to take away.   95 00:11:52,890 --> 00:12:04,720 Yeah. So really, it it's project management. It's. Ability to read and synthesise information and presenting.   96 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:14,920 Yes, it's kind of a soft skills. I mean, obviously I learnt a lot of physics in my actual PhD   97 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,360 But I wouldn't say that I've applied much of that in my other roles.   98 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:25,240 It's more being those kind of soft skills that have been the most useful.   99 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:31,540 Yeah. And I think that's that's always what's really interesting about looking at careers beyond academia,   100 00:12:31,540 --> 00:12:34,510 because I think we get really entrenched in this idea that I.   101 00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:43,480 I need to be looking at something that's very specific to the very niche topic area I am working in, whereas actually.   102 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:50,650 When people are going to work in industry, that they're more using the working in the general subject area in some shape or form.   103 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:57,670 But it's those soft skills that become even more important because they're the ones that are transferable.   104 00:12:57,670 --> 00:13:07,060 Absolutely. And I can give you an example of that. So. Right. One of the first things that I did when I joined Simplewear   105 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:17,040 whereas it was then now synopsis was I had a Web meeting with someone who is using this software and they were doing knee replacement.   106 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:31,600 And now my PhD is a microwave metamaterials. I'm looking at electromagnetic interaction with materials and it has nothing to do with knees.   107 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:40,180 So very quickly, I have to understand the different parts that need to put the bones are called some of the key muscles or tendons.   108 00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:48,280 I had to understand how you perform in knee replacement so that I was roughly on the same level so that   109 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:54,610 we could talk in similar terms because there are terms that are specific to different industries.   110 00:13:54,610 --> 00:14:02,500 So I had to come up to speed very fast on all of that and then understand how this particular   111 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:08,800 customer wanted to use the software and what what the challenges were that they were facing.   112 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:16,270 And then I had to take all of that presented back to them in a Web meeting in under an hour.   113 00:14:16,270 --> 00:14:21,460 So very quickly, you're having to take a problem.   114 00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:32,300 Understand it. Do your research. Kind of problem solve along the way and then present it back and answer questions all in one.   115 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:39,370 So I think that would take about maybe between one and two days to complete the whole project.   116 00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:48,550 But at the same time, I had three or four other projects and sort of mini projects like that that I'd have to answer as well.   117 00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:53,200 And meetings and emails and all these other things. So it's really a bit of a juggling act.   118 00:14:53,200 --> 00:15:01,420 But you've got to focus on each problem, solve it, and then present it back to your customer and make sure that they're happy with that solution.   119 00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:09,670 Make sure that you have understood and solved whatever they're looking to work towards and make sure that it fits for them.   120 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:14,340 So it it's quite a quite large challenge, but it's really fun.   121 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:19,130 Yeah, and I think that there seems to be something there that's really about problem solving,   122 00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:28,410 but using your research skills and your creativity in finding solutions to your work problems.   123 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:34,710 And I think you draw on all your past experience in order to do that Problem-Solving.   124 00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:39,450 So in before I started the PhD, I worked in manufacturing.   125 00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:47,970 So there are lots of things that I learnt in terms of tolerances, in terms of manufacturing processes.   126 00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:57,030 So when I work with someone who's using additive manufacturing, I can relate to certain areas there as well.   127 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:01,930 And I bring that experience to help me to solve that.   128 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:06,030 So, yeah, there's lots of different areas that kind of draw together.   129 00:16:06,030 --> 00:16:15,550 But the PhD brings a skill set of tackling a very large project and helping you to form it all together.   130 00:16:15,550 --> 00:16:24,480 One of the things people get. We get feedback that our researchers are quite nervous about is the application process for.   131 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:34,830 Jobs outside of academia, because they're sort of the. Academic kind of job application promotions process feels very familiar.   132 00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:40,040 When you're in that environment, can you talk about your experience of.   133 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:51,640 Applying for jobs in. industry and specifically kind of how you talked about and framed, your research experience?   134 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:58,630 Yes, absolutely. So I was very lucky with the jobs that I went to.   135 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:03,580 Most of them, I had some connection to the company.   136 00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:11,220 And throughout my working career, I seem to have fallen into jobs rather than applied through the formal process.   137 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:21,310 So I would definitely say to any PhD tudents and create a network and tell people that you're looking for a job,   138 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:28,850 because the one that I got at Subten Systems, I found out through a guy that I used to go gliding with.   139 00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:33,010 He'd started at this company and they were looking down on and I was able to apply   140 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:37,930 and get a lot of things have kind of fallen into place through that network.   141 00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:48,310 I have done very few formal applications. Having said that, all my positions have involved some kind of interview.   142 00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:58,180 So I can certainly comment on that. I guess the key thing is to think about how you've applied your skills and   143 00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:04,540 any way that you can show that you can talk about how you've used that skill.   144 00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:09,750 So it could be that you.   145 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:15,510 Looked after a colleague's child, say, for a few hours.   146 00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:21,150 And that was very challenging for you. You can apply that situation and say this was a very stressful situation.   147 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:31,620 Not something that I'm familiar with. And this is how I managed it. That might not be particularly relevant to an industrial R&D engineering job,   148 00:18:31,620 --> 00:18:37,290 but they can see how when you went into a new situation, how you managed it.   149 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:48,450 And I think those how you can form an example, if you can draw on your PhD, if you can draw on your sort of formal experiences, that's great.   150 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:55,620 But if there's an area where you think importantly, where to go with this, look at your your life outside of work,   151 00:18:55,620 --> 00:19:00,840 outside of academia and think, are there examples that you can draw from there as well?   152 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:07,230 Because that's a really key area that people sometimes sometimes miss.   153 00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:12,640 I think the other thing about applications and interviews is.   154 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:23,890 It's almost always evidence based. So really try to give as many examples of how you fulfil the job.   155 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:32,590 Job skills and competencies which will be listed on the job description, try and like focus on those specifically.   156 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:38,520 And then you've got a stronger application. Are there particular things that you did?   157 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,760 So you said you talked about kind of the importance of forming those examples and those examples,   158 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:48,910 not having to be really specific to the role the industry that you're working in.   159 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:55,930 Are there things that you did during your OhD that weren't necessarily kind of just about the doing the research   160 00:19:55,930 --> 00:20:03,310 and writing the thesis that have been really useful to you as examples and job applications and interviews?   161 00:20:03,310 --> 00:20:11,080 Oh, that's a great question. So there are lots of things I did during my PhD   162 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:17,500 I travelled extensively as part of the PhD, which is something that I would definitely recommend to everybody.   163 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:23,800 And actually that travel led to multiple collaboration's.   164 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:34,250 Regarding my research. So that was extremely helpful in terms of outside of the actual PhD and the research environment.   165 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:42,450 And I was also a Brownie leader. So that's part of the Girlguiding structure.   166 00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:54,850 And that was something that kept me really rooted during the PhD because I was working with girls aged seven to 10 and they can be so challenging.   167 00:20:54,850 --> 00:20:57,340 They can really come up with so many questions.   168 00:20:57,340 --> 00:21:07,030 Things that you don't think about a child's mind is a fascinating array of ideas, and they're so inquisitive.   169 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:14,200 So that was really amazing. And I am quite lucky in that I was able to actually bring them into the physics building.   170 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:22,630 And we did a whole evening in the physics building with a little talk and we did some bridge building and and all sorts of things.   171 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:33,730 So that was that was really fantastic. I think I also did just after my PhD, I did some volunteering through girlguiding.   172 00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:37,720 So it was sustainable. Volunteering is what I called it.   173 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,830 Call it. I'm not a builder. I don't have any skills in that area.   174 00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:46,000 So I can't go and build houses for people or anything like that.   175 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:52,120 But we we ran a programme where we went out and asked the people what they were   176 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:58,150 looking for and actually what they wanted was something much more simple or simple,   177 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:02,740 something that I could deliver. Which was how to build CVs   178 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:11,900 How to present yourself to different people. And it was a very simplistic level, but that was something that we were we were able to do.   179 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:19,930 So that was fantastic. And as part of that, we also developed the girl guiding programme in the country with the leaders,   180 00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:30,160 very simple ideas that don't take lots of resources or money or time, but just ideas for things that they could do to to get more people involved.   181 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,250 So that's something that I often talk about in interviews,   182 00:22:33,250 --> 00:22:39,580 because it's something that also changed me as a person to understand that I finished my PhD.   183 00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:45,040 But actually I have a lot of skills that are useful to other people and I can   184 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:51,610 teach them in an informal way and about the world around them and how it works.   185 00:22:51,610 --> 00:22:55,870 I never really appreciated that before I went away.   186 00:22:55,870 --> 00:23:08,650 So that was really great. That's very interesting and how did you how did you balance doing that kind of activity alongside doing your PhD?   187 00:23:08,650 --> 00:23:11,590 I was quite lucky. We're part of a team.   188 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:25,130 So when my work load up for my academic workload was quite high, I was able to kind of step back from the brownie preparation for the sessions.   189 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:29,200 But when I was a little bit quieter, I could jump in and do more.   190 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:36,310 And what I really tried to do was make sure that every Monday night when it was the meeting, I was always there.   191 00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:40,810 And that was a kind of a non-negotiable aspect for me. That time was Brownie time.   192 00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:47,670 And that was it. Apart from obviously when I was travelling for conferences and and other such things.   193 00:23:47,670 --> 00:23:56,500 But I think that's all about teamwork. That's about communicating with the team that you have and understanding each other's pressures.   194 00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:04,300 One of the other ladies that runs it is a school teacher. So there are key aspects during the year which are particularly busy for her.   195 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:08,170 Another lady is a solicitor, so she has big projects.   196 00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:12,610 So sometimes it coincides that we we are all really busy.   197 00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:18,190 In which case we all do a little bit to contribute to what we need.   198 00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:22,900 Having said that, there's also a good aspect of just winging it,   199 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:31,600 turning up and just having some fun and nothing to planned and just having a couple of things in your back pocket that you can just get on with.   200 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,010 And I think that's that's really fun as well.   201 00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:42,440 I wouldn't want to do all the time, but that helps. And it is quite an important skill to have.   202 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,600 Like you say, it's not something that we would necessarily want to make.   203 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:56,530 The way that we operate on a daily basis, but quite often in in the working world and in your PhD, you do kind of have to just turn up and wing it.   204 00:24:56,530 --> 00:25:05,830 Absolutely. So there's always that time when you go to a conference and someone's talk doesn't load properly or is corrupted,   205 00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:14,800 or I went to a talk where all the graphs were in neon colours and you couldn't see any of the lines.   206 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,630 And so I give him his due. That guy stood there for 20 minutes.   207 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:24,430 He talked about his research and we could not see a single thing on any of his slides.   208 00:25:24,430 --> 00:25:31,060 And I think that is a real skill. And I think there's a bit to be said for preparation in that situation.   209 00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:37,810 Maybe you can go in the night before or just a couple of hours before your talk and just   210 00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:42,370 check it over to make sure that it does work on the projector that you're going to use.   211 00:25:42,370 --> 00:25:47,260 However, it's if you really know your subject area,   212 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:55,720 hopefully you'd be able to talk a little bit about your research without these slides, you know, just giving it a go talk.   213 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,210 And actually, it was a really good talk because it got people asking questions.   214 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:10,300 And I think that's really key. I guess one of the big questions is what advice would you give to someone who's currently starting out or doing well,   215 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:17,140 coming to the end of the research degree, who is thinking about R&D roles in industry?   216 00:26:17,140 --> 00:26:25,960 What advice would you give them about things they should be doing now, about applying for applying for jobs?   217 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,760 Is there any kind of key tips you would give them? Absolutely.   218 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,700 I would say try and extend your network.   219 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:44,770 Now, you could do that by going up to conferences, talking to people about your research, but also talk to your family,   220 00:26:44,770 --> 00:26:54,070 your friends locally, because lots of my business contacts have been made through unusual links.   221 00:26:54,070 --> 00:27:01,240 So really use that network to understand what opportunities are out there.   222 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,400 What kind of skills people are looking for right now. Because it changes it.   223 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:16,600 It changes all the time. We're seeing more of a focus towards automation and more scripting is required.   224 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:23,560 So things like Python are becoming more necessary and lots of job roles.   225 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:33,550 And I would say focus on that to kind of understand what areas you might want to go into, on what kind of skills they're looking for.   226 00:27:33,550 --> 00:27:38,350 And then you can focus on sort of fulfilling those before you get there,   227 00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:46,480 but also using those contacts to understand actually is there an opportunity that I'd be perfect for.   228 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,060 And actually, I can look to apply and say to them, look, it's conditional.   229 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:55,900 I want to finish my PhD and then start or something like that.   230 00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:04,930 There are lots of opportunities out there. And you just need to be a bit flexible in looking for them, how you find them.   231 00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:11,290 And I think people often overlook that. Thinking that they have to apply through a formal route.   232 00:28:11,290 --> 00:28:19,620 And there will be a formal route. That is how you find those opportunities that I'm saying can be can be less orthodox.   233 00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:25,330 Yeah, I think I think that's really key and it seems to have been a key theme in your career so far.   234 00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:34,630 Actually, the importance of networking and making Connections to actually creating those opportunities.   235 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:45,670 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, before my PhD, most of my jobs were through word of mouth.   236 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:54,460 One of the jobs that I had was because I'd used a particular software for my dissertation and a company contacted the university and said,   237 00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:59,920 Do you have any students who can use this software? Any graduates who might be looking for jobs?   238 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:06,430 That was another way that I that I got an opportunity there as well.   239 00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:10,750 So there are lots ways. Talk to your supervisor about what you're looking for.   240 00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:19,480 Maybe they have someone who's sponsoring PhDs in another area that maybe you're not aware of and they're looking for people.   241 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,630 So that can be a huge help as well. Yeah, that's really brilliant.   242 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:33,240 I'm. Is there anything that you.   243 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:41,350 Wish that you had done. While you were still a PhD student that you think would've benefited your career so far?   244 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:50,760 I don't think there's any opportunities that I missed. I think probably I should have spent some time learning how to code properly.   245 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,620 That would be really useful in my career.   246 00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:04,560 Now, I've picked up bits along the way, but I have to say I'm not a superb coder.   247 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:11,430 I think that's a key area. But in terms of conferences, in terms of experience, I was always quite cheeky.   248 00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:16,860 So I'd always ask if I wanted to go to a conference, if I saw it was somewhere amazing.   249 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:23,730 Then I'd just ask and we'd see if there was budget and I'd make sure that I had something new to present.   250 00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:30,960 When I went to my supervisor to say I would go to this conference and most of the time we made it happen.   251 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:39,920 So, yeah, be cheeky. Just go for it. Yeah, that's that's the benefit of being.   252 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:46,470 Proactive. And also just accepting that, you know, if you ask.   253 00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:54,560 They might say no. They might say yes. Exactly. My mom always used to say, if you don't ask, you don't get.   254 00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:00,840 And that, I think, is very true. So couple of examples on that.   255 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Specifically, before I started my PhDD, I did a placement with Kinetic.   256 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:13,770 And there was a project that we were working on, which was on a warship that was in for refits.   257 00:31:13,770 --> 00:31:19,290 And I I've never been on an aircraft carrier.   258 00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:25,440 And I thought I'd really like to go. So I went over to the guy who's running projects and I said, I'd really like to go.   259 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,410 And he said, Oh, I dunno And then I ended up being down there for two weeks.   260 00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:40,920 And it was absolutely fantastic. And in another example, in my current job, I was working on a project.   261 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:47,340 And one of the surgeons said to me, you should come down and see surgery.   262 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:54,030 And I said, okay. So I asked my boss and he said, Well, yes, I guess so.   263 00:31:54,030 --> 00:32:00,780 So I went down and I saw a knee replacement and a hip replacement. And I've never seen anything like that.   264 00:32:00,780 --> 00:32:10,920 It's it's brutal and it's fascinating. And I had no idea how I was gonna react, whether I was going to faint on the floor or be engrossed in it.   265 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:18,990 Turns out I didn't faint on the floor. Fantastic. Didn't embarrass myself in front of the surgeons, but it was just the most amazing experience.   266 00:32:18,990 --> 00:32:25,590 And I've got so much more insight into how these surgeries are performed.   267 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:30,960 So when I work with a surgeon now, I know that if you're talking about fractions of a millimetre,   268 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:42,480 it's probably not going to be achievable in surgery because you you just can't see does that level of detail that you can give them a guide   269 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:54,220 and that that really the understanding of the situation of the kind of equipment that you have to wear of the how hot it is in the room.   270 00:32:54,220 --> 00:33:05,260 You know, all these things really help you to to speak to the customer and to to be able to direct them to the best solution for their problem.   271 00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:10,630 What do you love most about your job? Oh, just working with loads of different people.   272 00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:25,750 All the different industries. So I've got a project at the moment where I'm working on trying to automate a learning process to defect,   273 00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:29,530 to find defects in addictively manufactured parts.   274 00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:31,810 So that's one project.   275 00:33:31,810 --> 00:33:48,400 We're also working on automated learning to build models of hearts and knees and hips for things like pacemaker design or stent placement.   276 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,180 So just working with that huge range of industries and everything in between,   277 00:33:54,180 --> 00:34:00,730 I'm just really allows me to keep my brain active and learning lots of new, different things.   278 00:34:00,730 --> 00:34:03,010 But like I've said, applying those skills,   279 00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:12,070 I've learnt through the experience that I've had before to be able to come up with innovative solutions that don't only solve, you know,   280 00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:23,290 sort of minor problems, but they're they're really addressing critical problems like defects in aircraftg wings or,   281 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:26,780 you know, my my mum's knee replacement. She could have.   282 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:33,400 Now, she could have a personalised knee replacement rather than one that was probably a bit smaller, a bit too big.   283 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:41,890 But she was somewhere in the middle. And I think helping to address those problems gives you a real warm glow feeling inside.   284 00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:48,970 Thank you so much, Celia, for taking the time to talk to me and giving some really interesting insights on kind of R&D roles,   285 00:34:48,970 --> 00:34:53,590 but also the hidden job market. And that's it for this episode.   286 00:34:53,590 --> 00:35:07,982 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. David Jacoby, Research Fellow at the Zoological Society of London. You can find out more about David on his LinkedIn profile.   Music credit: Cheery Monday Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,870 --> 00:00:15,620 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:23,920 Hello. 3 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,960 I'm Kelly Peece and welcome to this episode. Today I'm going to be talking to David Jacoby. 4 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:38,800 David works as a research fellow in a university affiliated institution, so he's kind of bridging that gap between industry and academia. 5 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,910 Hi, David. Can you introduce yourself? My name is Dr. David Jacoby. 6 00:00:43,910 --> 00:00:49,840 I'm a research fellow at the Institute of Zoology, which is part of the Zoological Society of London. 7 00:00:49,840 --> 00:01:00,470 I've been working there for roughly seven years now. I graduated from the University of Exeter with a research degree in 2012. 8 00:01:00,470 --> 00:01:06,380 My PhD was in animal behaviour and that was from the School of Psychology at the Streatham campus, 9 00:01:06,380 --> 00:01:13,430 and it focussed predominantly on the application of network analysis for understanding shark behaviour. 10 00:01:13,430 --> 00:01:19,130 So, David, can you tell me a little bit about your current role and what it involves as a research fellow? 11 00:01:19,130 --> 00:01:23,930 I have a growing research lab around the theme of network ecology and telemetry, 12 00:01:23,930 --> 00:01:31,250 and this focuses on my main research interests, which are predominately the ecology and conservation of shark species. 13 00:01:31,250 --> 00:01:41,920 So that is things like how they reside with inside and outside marine protected areas, the threats they face from commercial and illegal fisheries. 14 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,800 But another component in my research is also various different animal tracking 15 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,110 technologies and how we can use that to understand things about movement, ecology and behaviour. 16 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:56,360 And finally, the third strand of my research is into animal social network analysis as well. 17 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,980 So why animals aggregate predominately in the marine environment for my focus. 18 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:07,730 What this means for population dynamics and how do we quantify social behaviour in fish at all. 19 00:02:07,730 --> 00:02:17,090 So this role really involves supervision of both PhD and masters students, as a research and pure research institute. 20 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:25,490 We do some degree of teaching associated with some of the other London universities whose masters courses are affiliated to us. 21 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:34,100 But it's predominantly my role is around data analysis. The writing of grant applications and papers, reviewing grant applications and papers, 22 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:40,520 as well as a big component, and then everyday meetings with students and colleagues. 23 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:47,420 For example, I sit on the Equality and Diversity Committee within the Institute of Zoology, and this is really about taking inward. 24 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:58,250 Look at how we as an organisation represent the diversity in society and how we can improve diversity across academia in general. 25 00:02:58,250 --> 00:03:03,830 In addition to that, we have a lot of responsibilities around communication and outreach activities. 26 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:13,440 So I spend quite a lot of time trying to present my work to people, be on the scientific community and whether that be at conferences, 27 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:24,200 non-specific scientific conferences and events for the public evening symposia which we put on for public at the Zoological Society of London. 28 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,660 And then extra curricular activities include things like editorial responsibilities. 29 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:37,190 So I am I've been an assistant editor at the Journal of Fish Biology for the last six years. 30 00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:43,340 So that also takes up quite a bit of my time as well. So what's it like working in a pure research institute? 31 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:47,280 Is it similar or different to conducting research in academia? 32 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,170 And what's the what's your day to day work life like? 33 00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:55,610 I really enjoy working at ZSL or the Zoological Society of London. 34 00:03:55,610 --> 00:04:01,560 It's a pure research institute. And as an organisation, it is absolutely steeped in history. 35 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,730 It's nearing its two hundredth anniversary. Charles Darwin was a former fellow of that as well. 36 00:04:07,730 --> 00:04:17,060 And Sir David Attenborough is the current patron. So the place is really inspirational in terms of some of the research that's come out of there. 37 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:22,760 There's a real diversity of research, a diversity of methods and study systems as well. 38 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,540 So you never really know what you're going to be discussing when you meet people in the tea room. 39 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:35,150 There's so many different study systems from terrestrial animals to aquatic, from various tracking to genetics. 40 00:04:35,150 --> 00:04:40,250 So there's a real mixed bag of people working there. And that's what I like about the place. 41 00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:46,520 In many ways it's similar to university, but without the pressure perhaps to conduct quite so much teaching, 42 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:52,100 we do contribute to master's courses from Imperial College, London, University College, London as well. 43 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:59,160 King's Royal Vetinary College and a number of other institutions. So I can do as much or as little teaching as I want, 44 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,230 but I experience the same pressure that you get at a university to bring in grant 45 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:09,560 money to justify our position to publish regularly in high impact publications. 46 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:18,140 I have an honorary position at UCL, which is one of our main collaborative organisations, 47 00:05:18,140 --> 00:05:24,250 and there's broad collaboration across all of the London and London groups and London universities. 48 00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:32,240 And this includes the London doctoral training programme from which we have a kind of annual cohort of these students as well available to us. 49 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:41,210 My average day, I would say, is desk based predominantly, and it will include student meetings, some analysis, a bit of writing, 50 00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:46,970 quite a lot of internal meetings as well, and also external international collaborative meetings, 51 00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:53,030 which can run out of hours as well, depending on who is speaking to. 52 00:05:53,030 --> 00:05:57,070 Then on the flip side of that, I have regular fieldwork each year as well. 53 00:05:57,070 --> 00:06:03,070 So I have two main field sites currently up and running where we track sharks using acoustic telemetry. 54 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:08,560 My main field site is in the British Indian Ocean territory, one of the largest marine protected areas in the world. 55 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:15,610 And here, the groups tracking reef sharks to understand the role that the marine protected area has on trying to conserve these species, 56 00:06:15,610 --> 00:06:20,520 which are still facing large threats from illegal fishing activity. 57 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,890 The second field site is in northern Lanzarote in the Canary Islands, 58 00:06:23,890 --> 00:06:28,150 and this is tracking critically endangered angel sharks, about which we know very little. 59 00:06:28,150 --> 00:06:31,180 So we're using technologies there to try to understand some of their ecology, 60 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:38,590 some of their daily seasonal and annual variation and movements and distribution. 61 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:47,950 And this usually involves being out on the water from the vessel based research for anywhere up to three weeks at a time, at least once a year. 62 00:06:47,950 --> 00:06:53,080 Sometimes there are more trips and I also attend both national and international conferences as well. 63 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:59,500 So that's another component of my time. But that's a broad overview of what I tend to do on a day to day basis. 64 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:03,250 So what skills and experiences from your research degree? 65 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,910 Do you use specifically in your current role for key skills? 66 00:07:06,910 --> 00:07:16,390 My PhD, I would argue that I really relied on some of the project management experience I got during my PhD 67 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:26,590 This included things like budgeting, time allocation, delegation of responsibilities and roles to research assistants and to students as well. 68 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:33,340 But also the importance of reading and reading a lot. Reading around the subject, reading as broadly as possible. 69 00:07:33,340 --> 00:07:39,430 Things like practising presentations as well. I used to be terrified of giving presentations. 70 00:07:39,430 --> 00:07:41,380 The more I do, the easier I find it. 71 00:07:41,380 --> 00:07:52,390 So certainly practising that more and more was a skill that I began to acquire during my PhD, which is still really important today. 72 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:57,280 Also, I would say a willingness to kind of see where a conversation or a train of thought can lead you as well. 73 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:04,600 So I'm very fortunate at the moment in my role that I'm able to kind of explore different avenues of research. 74 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:12,880 But one of the great things about a pure research institute is that you can have a conversation that can set you off on a whole new direction. 75 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,870 It could be bring in whole new techniques, a whole new set of collaborators, 76 00:08:16,870 --> 00:08:23,270 and it can really set start your day or your week or your year off in a very exciting direction. 77 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:28,450 And the only other thing I would say about what I learnt from my PhD was the importance of listening to people, 78 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:33,470 taking onboard advice and learning the kind of better habits of people I admired, 79 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:44,710 but also learning from bad habits of others and generally just trying to treat people in the way that I enjoyed being treated as a student myself. 80 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:48,610 I learnt a lot from my supervisors and I learnt a lot from the people I interacted with. 81 00:08:48,610 --> 00:08:53,980 During my PhD and I've really made a conscious effort to try and take some of those good 82 00:08:53,980 --> 00:09:00,190 components and repeat them and pass them on to students that I now supervise as well. 83 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:04,630 Are there any additional activities or extracurricular projects you would advise research 84 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:09,160 degree students to get involved in to help make them more employable extracurricular activities? 85 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,450 As I said, I. I have my editorial roles for various different journals. 86 00:09:13,450 --> 00:09:19,660 These have been extremely rewarding for me as I've learnt a lot about the peer review system and about research in general. 87 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:25,420 It's meant I've had to interact with a lot of different researchers worldwide, both for requests for review, 88 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:30,020 but also managing the comments as they come in and then dealing with the authors 89 00:09:30,020 --> 00:09:37,270 and and being the Go-Between between the authors and reviewers as well. That's been a really rewarding and interesting experience. 90 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:43,720 So I would highly recommend if those opportunities come up. Taking those organising events is certainly a very useful thing to do. 91 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,960 Again, this comes down to project management. 92 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:56,050 And I helped organise a behaviour meeting while I was at Exeter during my PhD and that was a very useful thing to do. 93 00:09:56,050 --> 00:10:03,770 I currently run a twice monthly bio logging journal club where we discuss and critique new papers in the field of animal tracking. 94 00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:11,800 And this really, again, encourages people to read. It stimulates discussion amongst people of a like mind. 95 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,580 It enables you to keep on top of the literature and learn new new things. 96 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:23,110 But just just having to run that really forced me to to bring the group together 97 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:29,590 and to meet on a regular basis and to discuss things on a regular basis as well. 98 00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:35,770 I would advise offering yourself out to help out on committees that, you know, 99 00:10:35,770 --> 00:10:41,610 really try and have an impact on the environment you work in and try and really be 100 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:45,940 be an individual that pushes forward better practises within that institution, 101 00:10:45,940 --> 00:10:53,070 an organisation that can always be improvements made both at an institutional level, but also at a wider. 102 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:57,090 Academic level as well. So I would say use your voice. 103 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:01,950 Everyone, everyone has an important thing. Everyone has important things to say. 104 00:11:01,950 --> 00:11:06,490 And I would use that to try and improve the surroundings that you're in. 105 00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:17,280 And the field as a whole. And finally, what advice would you give to students who are thinking about applying for roles in pure research institutes? 106 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:24,270 The advice that I always give isn't necessarily specific to a research institute at all, but it is useful, I think. 107 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:29,730 And that is learn a skill, whether that be coding or learning a programming language. 108 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:37,800 Genetic techniques and mathematical processes or all things from physics, anything like that. 109 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:45,150 And bring that skill to the organisation that you want to work at or the study system that you want to work on, particularly in ecology and zoology. 110 00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:55,020 We are crying out for interdisciplinary research techniques, people to bring in research from other areas. 111 00:11:55,020 --> 00:12:00,090 I mean, science is becoming an increasingly interdisciplinary thing to do. 112 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:06,720 So thinking outside the box is a must. And outside skills often pave the way for new, very novel research. 113 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,730 And these can be be the difference in, you know, really progressing the field. 114 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:15,210 So I would I would definitely recommend trying to learn a skill as opposed to being 115 00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:21,540 focussed on a particular system or a particular study organism or something like that. 116 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:26,310 The second and final piece of advice I would also give is to be really persistent as well. 117 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:32,820 There is no tried and tested method from going from your PhD  to the job you finally want to end up in. 118 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:41,520 It took me many years to get to the point where I was being paid to lead my own research and often just a foot in the door is really important. 119 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:49,380 So I actually took up a six month unpaid internship after my PhD, which wasn't wasn't ideal. 120 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:54,220 And it's also not feasible for everyone as well. But it was really important. 121 00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:57,720 I was able to get a foot in the door at the Zoological Society of London. 122 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:05,580 And since then I've stayed and I've slowly developed my own strands of research, my own research group over time. 123 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:10,170 So people take different routes. There is no right way of getting from A to B. 124 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:19,050 And it's important to remember that, but it will take a lot of persistence. So stick at it if you're keen and the rewards will come. 125 00:13:19,050 --> 00:13:27,010 Thank you so much, David, for taking the time to share your thoughts and your experience. 126 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:42,765 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Natalie Whitehead, co-founder of the Exeter Science Centre. Here are some links to the different organisations and schemes we discussed in the podcast:  Dr. Natalie Whitehead Linkedin  Exeter Science Centre Student Start Ups SETsquared  Exeter City Futures Exeter Science Park  Kaleider The Ocean Clean-Up The Impact Lab National Marine Aquarium  CDT Metamaterials    Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,940 --> 00:00:23,510 Hello and welcome to the Beyond your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,510 --> 00:00:27,590 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:27,590 --> 00:00:34,550 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and I'm delighted for this episode to be joined by one of our recent graduates, Dr Natalie Whitehead. 4 00:00:34,550 --> 00:00:39,770 Natalie, are you happy to introduce yourself? OK, great. 5 00:00:39,770 --> 00:00:46,640 So I'm Natalie Whitehead. I recently finished my PhD in physics. 6 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:54,050 I was looking at spin waves through magnets, which are just a special type of wave that travels through magnets. 7 00:00:54,050 --> 00:00:58,310 That was my PhD and that finished in September. 8 00:00:58,310 --> 00:01:07,910 And I'm now the founder and director alongside my colleague, Dr Alice Mills for the Exeter Science Centre. 9 00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:12,920 Talk to me about the Exeter Science Centre. How how did this come about? 10 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:20,180 So this is something that I've been thinking about for, oh, I don't know, probably just a bit over a year now. 11 00:01:20,180 --> 00:01:26,390 But a year and a half. And basically, I I was trying to work out what to do after my PhD 12 00:01:26,390 --> 00:01:32,810 So this who was in physics and during my PhD and undergraduate degree, 13 00:01:32,810 --> 00:01:38,180 I was really involved in doing public engagement with research and a lot of science outreach. 14 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:45,260 I absolutely love talking about science and and speaking to the public about it and showing them demos and getting their 15 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:53,660 views and trying to answer questions and things and basically just trying to inspire them about how amazing science is. 16 00:01:53,660 --> 00:01:59,540 So I was trying to work out what to do after the PhD, which would, you know, 17 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:04,970 be good for me, but also for something that I can really contribute towards. 18 00:02:04,970 --> 00:02:08,770 So, you know, the climate crisis is a really big thing at the moment. 19 00:02:08,770 --> 00:02:14,370 Of course, it should be and should have been for the. I don't know how many decades. 20 00:02:14,370 --> 00:02:23,930 And I really feel like I have some kind of responsibility to do something with my physics training, which is useful. 21 00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:27,350 So I was trying to work out what to do and whether, you know, 22 00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:32,030 whether I should go and work for one of these amazing Start-Up companies doing cool things. 23 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:34,280 You know, I was looking at the the ocean clean up. 24 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:41,780 I think what they're doing is amazing, using science and tech to solve the problem and a global issue and lots of other companies like that. 25 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:50,990 It's nice thinking. Well, you know, I could go and work for someone like that. Will I be the best scientist or engineer to do that? 26 00:02:50,990 --> 00:02:56,240 I don't know. But I thought really what my what my skills are. 27 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,610 One of the things I'm really passionate about, as I mentioned, is science communication. 28 00:03:01,610 --> 00:03:11,330 And this idea really just came to me one afternoon having lunch and thinking like, why don't I just make a science centre in Exeter? 29 00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:16,070 It's just something that I've always kind of thought, wow, we should really have one of those here 30 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:20,540 I've been to a few around the UK and across the world. 31 00:03:20,540 --> 00:03:28,610 And I just I love going there. And I see adults and people of all ages just absolutely loving, 32 00:03:28,610 --> 00:03:37,480 understanding different things about science and playing with scientific equipment and just really engaging with science. 33 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:43,530 And I just figured, why don't we have one here? And why don't I just make it? 34 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:49,580 So I approached my colleague Alice, and she's a very passionate science communicator as well. 35 00:03:49,580 --> 00:03:53,150 And she loved the idea here. And we've just been talking about it since then. 36 00:03:53,150 --> 00:03:57,050 So, yeah, we're just super dedicated to making it happen. 37 00:03:57,050 --> 00:04:02,120 So what stage are you at with your plans for the science centre? 38 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:08,120 We're still in the very early stages. So, as I mentioned, I finished the PhD in September. 39 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,030 And of course, when you, you know, hand in a PhDthesis, 40 00:04:12,030 --> 00:04:16,440 you still got a lot of work to do afterwards to kind of, you know, do the viva and make corrections. 41 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:22,570 So that's been kind of continued and maybe into about January or so. 42 00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:29,580 And then I really properly submitted it put in online and then then could properly focus on this that I've been working on. 43 00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:35,930 It's pretty much full time on and off, you know, around the thesis since September. 44 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:44,420 So what we're what we're doing at the moment is trying to get trying to get the public to be aware of our plans and try 45 00:04:44,420 --> 00:04:54,650 to get their input and really just try to establish ourselves as a science discovery centre for Exeter and for the region. 46 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:59,150 And just trying to raise awareness, try to raise money as well. 47 00:04:59,150 --> 00:05:03,920 That's a big part of it. And just trying to make it happen. 48 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:15,740 We've got a a team of advisers who are amazing and super inspiring from different areas of science education and business as well. 49 00:05:15,740 --> 00:05:21,020 And they're kind of our advisory boards. They'll be moving over to be our trustees. 50 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:27,650 Once we establish ourselves as a charity soon. But there's there's loads of things to do about it. 51 00:05:27,650 --> 00:05:33,350 When you take on such a big project, you realise that, you know, you're running a business. 52 00:05:33,350 --> 00:05:38,170 You're also trying to create a charity here, charitable business. 53 00:05:38,170 --> 00:05:46,240 Engage with the public. And that is just a kind of multidisciplinary project ready, which is really exciting or very overwhelming. 54 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,380 But at the same time, it's some I wouldn't want to be doing anything else. 55 00:05:50,380 --> 00:05:55,870 I was going to say it's it's a huge project and and it is there must be an awful 56 00:05:55,870 --> 00:06:02,440 lot of business based skills and business based work that needs to be done. 57 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,890 How how has that been? How has it been. Yeah. 58 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:10,650 You know, going from an academic environment to doing much more business related work. 59 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:12,610 Have you found that transition easy? 60 00:06:12,610 --> 00:06:19,690 Have there been kind of skills and experiences you've been able to take across or has it been a complete learning curve? 61 00:06:19,690 --> 00:06:29,020 It's been a very steep learning curve. So am I. I don't have any experience of running a company myself, and nor does my colleague Alice. 62 00:06:29,020 --> 00:06:34,930 So we're learning. However, I feel like when you you do a PhD and you study. 63 00:06:34,930 --> 00:06:38,470 I mean, you know, from my experience of studying science and physics, 64 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:45,470 you you have to take in a lot of information and and process things and think logically. 65 00:06:45,470 --> 00:06:49,480 And, you know, you you can learn things very quickly. 66 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:58,420 And although the business and accounting and finance and all that kind of stuff is it's not my first language at all 67 00:06:58,420 --> 00:07:02,900 I feel like there's there's a lot of information out there that just needs synthesising, understanding. 68 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:06,310 And really, that is the way we're approaching this. 69 00:07:06,310 --> 00:07:10,420 Of course, we understand it. We we shouldn't be expected to be absolute experts. 70 00:07:10,420 --> 00:07:12,630 Everything we're doing and this projects, rather, 71 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:20,530 it's it's understanding when we need help and need assistance and guidance from people who really have experience in this. 72 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:27,190 So we've been very lucky, actually, to have a lot of assistance from the university in. 73 00:07:27,190 --> 00:07:35,920 In this kind of Start-Up venture, if you would call with the start-ups team, setsquared programme. 74 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,420 They've been absolutely wonderful and giving us the kind of business advice. 75 00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:50,590 So we've been assigned a business adviser, David Solomides, who is just super inspiring and really, really, really helpful. 76 00:07:50,590 --> 00:07:58,210 And he's become one of our kind of formal advisors and hopefully one four trustees will move to a charity as well. 77 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:00,040 So so the help is out there. 78 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:09,580 I suppose if I was to give advice to someone perhaps who is thinking about doing something unusual like this, who doesn't have the experience. 79 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:17,950 I guess it's just you just have to go for it and be prepared to ask and and reach out to people and organisations who can help you, 80 00:08:17,950 --> 00:08:23,290 such as the university and and others. It's just been wonderful. 81 00:08:23,290 --> 00:08:32,890 Actually, the amount of support and help that we've received from from various kind of organisations across Exeter and mostly really the university. 82 00:08:32,890 --> 00:08:38,250 But, yeah, I feel like we've we've been assisted the whole time with them. 83 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:43,830 With things like this, especially business, which is kind of scary and unusual for the physicist, 84 00:08:43,830 --> 00:08:50,420 for scientists, but I but I think it's it's totally doable and it's always going to be a learning curve. 85 00:08:50,420 --> 00:08:56,400 But if you're determined enough, you'll you'll make out. Yeah. And I think there's a couple of things I'd like to pick up on there. 86 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,740 The first of which is to just acknowledge that that the support is out there in it. 87 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:12,170 And it's not about knowing everything yourself and having all of the skills yourself, but knowing how to access your networks, I guess. 88 00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:17,070 And and and in this case, for you, it is the university and the start-ups team. 89 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:23,970 Definitely, definitely. That's really important, too, because you you can't possibly know everything, 90 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:30,090 really recognising that is really important because otherwise you just try and do everything yourself. 91 00:09:30,090 --> 00:09:33,510 It get stressful. It gets overwhelming. 92 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:41,820 It's kind of it's almost like knowing when to delegate and knowing when to knowing that you can't possibly know everything 93 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:47,010 and that there is a big support network there if you're part of the university or have been part of the university. 94 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:58,600 They are just wonderful in in encouraging and helping and facilitating anything to do with Enterprise or Start-Up Ideas. 95 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:05,010 That is just been even the kind of encouragement that you get of, you know, wow, this is a great idea. 96 00:10:05,010 --> 00:10:10,870 You should speak to this person or have a look at this. It's it's just been really, really helpful. 97 00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:16,820 And I think people don't expect that to be a department of the university that has this kind of business expertise. 98 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:20,160 And they really do. Yeah, that's it. 99 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:32,110 And I seriously encourage anyone to to go visit the the Innovation Centre as the start-ups team are over in the deck over there. 100 00:10:32,110 --> 00:10:40,420 And they're just they're just great. You just pop in and speak to them and they can they have lots of kind of seminars, workshops and advice for you. 101 00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:50,820 So just go and speak to them. They're really great. So the experience you have of writing papers, your thesis reports, funding applications, 102 00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:56,880 all those sorts of things clearly and stood you in good stead for what you're doing now. 103 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:09,660 Are there any other skills or experiences you had during your PhD day that have been really, really crucial to starting this venture? 104 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:19,110 That's a good question, because I think, to be honest, the whole thing really the the way that I was approaching this, 105 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:22,820 they're calling it a project, is there's more than a project. 106 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:32,400 So that is an ambition. But, you know, you have to break it down into small, achievable steps because, of course, 107 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:39,540 you know, Mount Improbable really in this case is building a multi-million pound science centre. 108 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:43,680 But they're kind of finite steps you can break this down into. 109 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:48,690 Okay. We need to talk to people. We need to make a plan. 110 00:11:48,690 --> 00:11:51,090 And then those have some steps as well. 111 00:11:51,090 --> 00:12:01,800 So the important thing is when you're doing a Ph.D., you cannot say, right, I'm going to just just solve this big problem I have for, you know, 112 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:10,440 it's going to take four years and a PhD in this case, it might take about I dunno about seven years if we're if we're lucky to get the funding. 113 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:17,970 But at the same time, it's a seemingly insurmountable task, but it can be broken down into small, achievable chunks, 114 00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:21,660 some of which you're doing all at the same time, which just makes it a little bit more challenging. 115 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:31,080 But, um, but yeah, I think that the whole time management and understanding that things can be done, 116 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:36,030 they just need to be done in small chunks is very helpful from a PhD 117 00:12:36,030 --> 00:12:44,670 So what else. Things like presentation skills. That's been hugely important to them during the a PhD 118 00:12:44,670 --> 00:12:49,890 We've had a lot of opportunities to to do presentations, you know, preparing PowerPoint, 119 00:12:49,890 --> 00:12:57,270 doing either conference presentations or presentations to our colleagues about the way that we're doing. 120 00:12:57,270 --> 00:13:06,120 Again, you have to be clear. You have to be kind of clear enough to a to a broad audience who don't necessarily have your expertise. 121 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:14,390 And you have to express complicated ideas in a very short space of time, sometimes five, 10 minutes or so that you've got. 122 00:13:14,390 --> 00:13:22,500 And I found actually that that I've had that experience here as well. So we've had a number of number of opportunities where we will be doing business 123 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:28,980 pitches to various audiences and they might be five minutes long or so. 124 00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:34,230 So I've had the same problem I have to express to people this kind of amazing 125 00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:39,750 vision that I that I and my colleagues have about the Exeter science centre. 126 00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:46,080 And I have to explain it in five minutes and everything that could possibly encompass and that's challenging. 127 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,470 It's something I'm still kind of learning about because, of course, 128 00:13:49,470 --> 00:13:53,910 they people think of it from a business sense to not only have you got to express the vision, 129 00:13:53,910 --> 00:14:01,040 you have to express, you know, how you're going to get funding and all of this kind of extra detail to in five minutes. 130 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,440 So that's been challenging. So, yeah, there's some really cool things are coming across. 131 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:14,010 That's the the writing, as we've already talked about, but also the kind of product and time management presentation skills. 132 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:22,430 So I think the thing that's. That's really interesting to reflect on is that it's not necessarily obviously what you're doing is science related, 133 00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:32,030 but it's not necessarily the the science specific skills that you're using certainly at this moment in time. 134 00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:37,490 It's it's the broader kind of skill set that you develop through the process of doing the research degree. 135 00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:45,900 Definitely, definitely. I think it's not necessarily you know, you don't have to have done a science PhD to to be able to do this stuff. 136 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:54,620 But certainly, from my perspective, it has helped a lot because I feel I said and I hope I'm sure it's the same in other disciplines. 137 00:14:54,620 --> 00:15:01,940 Of course, I have no experience of it, but I just feel like doing a you know, doing a PhD in general, 138 00:15:01,940 --> 00:15:13,490 I think gives you this this ability to take on and face a lot of information and and that kind of stuff, that that's really incomprehensible. 139 00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:21,650 Synthesise it down and make logical steps when you understand what what needs to be done. 140 00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:28,670 So it's definitely helped. I guess that the difficult question but the one that I know that people will be 141 00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:35,000 wondering is obviously this isn't making you any money at the moment to be to be blunt. 142 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:50,060 So are you working alongside it? So that the way that I'm doing it at the moment is we don't have any specific income, which is, you know, 143 00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:56,870 obviously would be difficult for a lot of people, to be honest, being pretty thrifty throughout the PhD 144 00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:59,810 I know a lot of PhD students often, you know, 145 00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:09,680 work an extra year sometimes to write up results and and maybe their funding ends and they have to continue writing the thesis. 146 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:16,190 Luckily, with the way that I did the PhD in the centre for doctoral training in metamaterials, they were wonderful. 147 00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:20,010 And they would they would, you know, pay you for the full amount of time. 148 00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:23,570 So you had a good four years to write up. 149 00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:35,630 But what we're trying to do is, well, we've got some it's called co creation funding from one of our advisors who's amazing, Dr. Janet Anders. 150 00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:43,310 She's provided us with some funding to basically pay a very small stipend that will start soon. 151 00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:49,880 Yeah, it is a bit of a problem because when you when you do start something like this way, 152 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:56,750 maybe you don't have an immediate income source or or reading something current kind of charitable. 153 00:16:56,750 --> 00:16:58,890 You do need to have a bit of a business head on you. 154 00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:04,400 You need to think about how how you're going to make money from it, mainly because it has to be sustainable. 155 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,480 We don't want to make a big salary for ourselves. We're not interested in that. 156 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:15,620 We want to do something good. To be honest, it would just be great if, you know, we could we could all just live for free and do nice things. 157 00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:21,220 But of course, that, of course, you have to you have to think sustainably long term. 158 00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:25,640 So this has been something we've been thinking about for a while. How on earth do we do this? 159 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:33,500 Because, of course, you know, I initially were like, we need to make this amazing building, amazing centre, because that will have the most impact. 160 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:38,630 And, of course, we need a lot of money for. How are we going to get to that stage? 161 00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:48,050 Well, we think that since our expertise, mine and Alice's when Alice joins us properly in September, 162 00:17:48,050 --> 00:17:50,650 our expertise really is public engagement with science. 163 00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:56,960 And of course, we we've had a lot of experience working with academics and working in academia. 164 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:04,160 And we think that's a really important way for us to bring money in initially just to 165 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,590 kind of pay ourselves a small salary and enable us to work on this properly for for 166 00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:16,820 a longer term is to work with academics to kind of basically do public engagement on 167 00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:21,680 their behalf or with them and take the hassle out of that whole process for them, 168 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:32,120 including the reporting back and making sure that everything's clear for the for the the ref, the research excellence framework. 169 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:40,190 So what we're what we're doing is starting now to work with academics to make public engagement programmes of their research, 170 00:18:40,190 --> 00:18:43,460 which involve, you know, working schools, the public. 171 00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:52,460 And we've got, of course, a big growing audience across the Southwest to reach and do public talks for them, help them make exhibits. 172 00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:57,700 And eventually we hope that this will transition into working with them properly for, 173 00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:03,180 you know, putting putting their amazing exhibitions in the science centre itself. 174 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:09,160 But the way we've kind of reframed thinking about this project is that, you know, it's not just working towards a building. 175 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,970 You know, that isn't the end goal, really. It would be wonderful. We really, really want it to happen. 176 00:19:13,970 --> 00:19:19,130 But the really important thing that we can be doing right now is having an impact with the public. 177 00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:28,790 You know, even though we don't have a centre, we can still be a kind of a kind of abstract idea of a centre, which is just, 178 00:19:28,790 --> 00:19:36,110 you know, we're doing something great where we're communicating science to the public in a scientific research. 179 00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:43,520 And by the way, I have to clarify, like I'm using science, but really, that's an umbrella term for STEM or science, 180 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:51,200 technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine, which we're using but I tend to just use science because its shorter 181 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,320 So we want to communicate science, the public. We want to have an impact now. 182 00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,020 And and we don't need a building to do that. Of course, when we have a building, 183 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:08,330 we'll be able to have so much more influence and impact and have a space that people can actually visit and engage with. 184 00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:14,840 But for now, we're going to be working with academics that should bring some money in to enable us to do this. 185 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:21,440 And at the same time, we're going to be working to get grants from from various funding bodies and of course, 186 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:31,220 working towards getting what we hoped might be some philanthropic or some capital grant funding to make the building itself where we're optimistic. 187 00:20:31,220 --> 00:20:38,810 That's brilliant. And just sounds like a really, really considered a weay to. 188 00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:43,550 Support yourselves, but also develop and support the. 189 00:20:43,550 --> 00:20:55,340 The business slash charity. And develop those connections and that interest and engagement with the future centre. 190 00:20:55,340 --> 00:21:01,430 Definitely. Yeah. I mean, we're really I guess the thing is we're not trying to do something on the side, 191 00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:07,380 which is I don't know for example, selling scientific toys 192 00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:11,280 Maybe that would make some money. It's kind of relevant, but not really. 193 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,240 But that's more of a kind of profit making enterprise, which is just trying to, 194 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,550 you know, and whether that profit goes towards the stuff that we're doing. 195 00:21:18,550 --> 00:21:27,350 We we thought we might as well try to get some some income through doing the activities we really ought to be doing anyway. 196 00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:34,070 It's just kind of lucky, really, that some that there is a market for, if you want to call it that. 197 00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:37,760 We know that a lot of academics are really busy and they don't necessarily have 198 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:44,050 the skills or the the time to do proper public engagement rather than just, 199 00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:49,730 you know, going to a school once throughout the whole course of of of a grant. 200 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:55,700 Instead, what we can do is say, look, you know, you don't need to bother about sending all those emails and organising things and 201 00:21:55,700 --> 00:22:00,740 reporting back and and trying to reach a broad audience will do all that stuff for you. 202 00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:02,390 And at the same time, we're doing something good, 203 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:08,870 because it's we're getting to talk to the public about science and about exciting research that's going on locally. 204 00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:14,150 So it just ticks loads of boxes, really. We really hope that's gonna be a viable income source for us. 205 00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:17,560 But we're working on it. Yeah. Yeah. 206 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,290 As I said, it sounds incredibly exciting. And the. 207 00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:29,030 The idea of of the centre, and I mean certainly as a kind of I grew up locally and I remember taking school trips, 208 00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:39,340 we always had to go to Bristol, you know, to the science centre. And so the idea of having having that in Exeter seems. 209 00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:43,690 It almost makes me sort of when I when I saw saw the work you were doing, 210 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:49,600 it made me think what actually given this exeter science park, we've got the Met office here, the university. 211 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,400 Why don't we have one? Yeah. Exactly. Really pleased you said that 212 00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:01,870 I guess this is a good opportunity to kind of explain, you know, a rationale for putting it here and also what we're trying to achieve. 213 00:23:01,870 --> 00:23:07,680 So if you. The clearest thing I tend to start with, of course, on a podcast, so I can't show you it. 214 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,720 But if you look at the map of science centres across the U.K., these are. 215 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,280 I have to kind of define science centre first. 216 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:25,330 So a science centre or Science Discovery Centre is a kind of Hands-On science museum, which isn't about exhibits behind glass, 217 00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:31,390 which are kind of historical or, you know, and and have a more historical kind of background. 218 00:23:31,390 --> 00:23:42,400 It's more about Hands-On experiences which are trying to, you know, infuse and inspire people of all ages and backgrounds about science. 219 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,710 So that's what a science centre is. 220 00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:55,360 And if you if you look at the map of science centres across the U.K., there is just a gap in this region which needs filling, quite frankly. 221 00:23:55,360 --> 00:24:03,150 So, as you mentioned, there's one in Bristol, which is really curious and that's amazing, really a really great centre. 222 00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:07,150 And they've got a wonderful planetarium. And it's just it's just really cool. 223 00:24:07,150 --> 00:24:12,820 It's actually one of the the earliest science centres in the UK in its original form. 224 00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:21,570 And also what else we got down in the Southwest where we've got these projects, of course, amazing and really iconic. 225 00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:25,930 And the Eden projects is still quite specialised in its aim 226 00:24:25,930 --> 00:24:32,630 So that, you know, it's more about kind of I kind of want to get it wrong, but more horticultural, you know, 227 00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:42,820 it's it's it has a certain theme associated with it isn't really general science, including like space and astronomy and biology and things like that. 228 00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:52,190 It's it's more specialised in what it does. And there's also the Plymouth the Aquarium in Plymouth. 229 00:24:52,190 --> 00:25:00,280 That, again, is very specialised. It's a it's an aquarium. And it says more about, you know, it very specialised theme. 230 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,730 So what we're trying to create is a is a general science centre, 231 00:25:03,730 --> 00:25:08,500 which covers all aspects of science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine. 232 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:18,160 And we are trying to to fill this gap of science engagement in the Southwest and why Exeter 233 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,760 Why not Tiverton or Cullompton? 234 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,020 Or something like that. 235 00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:33,730 Well, Exeter itself is is really trying to establish itself and is doing a wonderful job at being a real science and tech innovation hub. 236 00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:38,530 I mean, you're right. We have the Met office, we have the university, 237 00:25:38,530 --> 00:25:49,330 we have the exeter science park and this consists of a load of really exciting science and tech companies who are who are doing great things. 238 00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:58,240 So Exeter already is a hub of science and that does lots of great things going in the region are going on in the region around here. 239 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:04,270 And it really just is the perfect place for it, not only because they know it has great connections, 240 00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:15,100 particularly for North Devon and the more rural areas across the southwest, you know that the roads all head towards Exeter. 241 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:21,340 And, of course, the train service as well. So we're trying to take as many boxes as we can in terms of location. 242 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:27,940 We want to really locate it in the centre of Exeter so that people don't have to drive to get to us. 243 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:34,750 You know, they could use public transport or they could use a park ride service and and you know that. 244 00:26:34,750 --> 00:26:37,780 Or they could cycle in and whatever, depending on where they live with. 245 00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:43,950 You know, if we were located out in the countryside, pretty much everyone would have to drive to get to us or, 246 00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:47,860 you know, it would just make it more difficult for people to reach us. 247 00:26:47,860 --> 00:26:53,050 And also, we're just we're trying to become a real cultural centre. 248 00:26:53,050 --> 00:26:56,170 You know, we don't want to be a kind of tourist attraction on the outskirts. 249 00:26:56,170 --> 00:27:05,140 We want to serve the public and and host clubs where if we get this amazing building that we'd like to create, 250 00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:10,200 we'd love to have green walls of rooftop garden. 251 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,140 You know, maybe we'd love to work with the RHS for example, 252 00:27:14,140 --> 00:27:24,190 and the Eden project to create a kind of rooftop Eden where people come and they they have mindful kind of gardening activities 253 00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:32,920 and clubs they might take part in from a kind of gardening for mental health kind of idea that we'll have public lectures. 254 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,110 So I just imagine it being this kind of space that people, you know, whether they're. 255 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:47,560 Interested in science, whether they're interested in the arts, though, will come in and an experience this place in lots of different ways. 256 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,100 The thing I haven't really emphasised too much. Mainly because it's it's something I'm really excited about. 257 00:27:52,100 --> 00:28:01,570 I don't necessarily have the expertise in is the fact that we want to tie in art with the science centre really strongly. 258 00:28:01,570 --> 00:28:10,340 And I'm still working out ways to do this. I met with residents at the amazing and inspiring Studio Kaleider 259 00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:17,620 And that's the kind of organisation which not only facilitates lots of artists who work together and and 260 00:28:17,620 --> 00:28:24,700 work on really inspiring things that they create these amazing kind of art experiences and installations. 261 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:32,470 So I'm a resident there, which means that they very kindly let me use their office space and, you know, work amongst their colleagues. 262 00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:40,660 And I'm hoping that will, you know, help me get an insight into this. This amazing arts community we have in Exeter in the Southwest, 263 00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:49,210 and we're trying to we're trying to ensure that that isn't just a, you know, science centre for science nerds. 264 00:28:49,210 --> 00:28:56,110 You know, even that would be some nerdy components of the science centre. 265 00:28:56,110 --> 00:29:03,820 We wanted to ensure that it's appealing to a broad audience and we want to emphasise that science, isn't it? 266 00:29:03,820 --> 00:29:08,890 Well, okay. The subject isn't just you're a scientist or you're an artist. 267 00:29:08,890 --> 00:29:20,530 You know that you can be both. You can use the skills from both areas to to to basically understand the universe. 268 00:29:20,530 --> 00:29:26,950 We find ourselves in and that's what artists are trying to do, you know, interpret and understand the world. 269 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:33,130 And that's what scientists are trying to do as well. I don't see them mutually exclusive, I think. 270 00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:38,740 I think we can learn a lot from each other. And I just think it would just make it so much more interesting. 271 00:29:38,740 --> 00:29:45,730 We have been to a few science centres, the one in particular that really resonates with me, 272 00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:52,510 and that is a great inspiration for the place we're trying to make is the Exploratorium in San Francisco. 273 00:29:52,510 --> 00:29:55,150 They have a an artist in residence. 274 00:29:55,150 --> 00:30:05,260 They have these amazing creative and kind of psychologically interesting art installations which have loads of science behind them. 275 00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:10,660 And they just I can't even express it. It's it's really inspiring stuff. 276 00:30:10,660 --> 00:30:15,910 And we'd really love to emulate that. And that's something I'm trying to work on at the moment. 277 00:30:15,910 --> 00:30:25,960 We're trying to understand how we can embed and and make a thread running through a whole centre of art as well as science. 278 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:33,150 So there's a lot of information. It just sounds incredibly inspiring. 279 00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:39,960 And it's great to hear that you're working with Kaleider as well is that a connection that the university that through the start-ups, 280 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:45,760 set up, or is that280 00:30:39,960 -->279 00:30:33,150 -->278 00:30:25,960 -->277 00:30:15,910 -->276 00:30:10,660 -->275 00:30:05,260 -->274 00:29:55,150 -->273 00:29:52,510 -->272 00:29:45,730 -->271 00:29:38,740 -->270 00:29:33,130 -->269 00:29:26,950 -->268 00:29:20,530 -->267 00:29:08,890 -->266 00:29:03,820 -->265 00:28:56,110 -->264 00:28:49,210 -->263 00:28:40,660 -->262 00:28:32,470 -->261 00:28:24,700 -->260 00:28:17,620 -->259 00:28:10,340 -->258 00:28:01,570 -->257 00:27:52,100 -->256 00:27:47,560 -->255 00:27:38,110 -->254 00:27:32,920 -->253 00:27:24,190 -->252 00:27:14,140 -->251 00:27:10,200 -->250 00:27:05,140 -->249 00:26:56,170 -->248 00:26:53,050 -->247 00:26:47,860 -->246 00:26:43,950 -->245 00:26:37,780 -->244 00:26:34,750 -->243 00:26:27,940 -->242 00:26:21,340 -->241 00:26:15,100 -->240 00:26:04,270 -->239 00:25:58,240 -->238 00:25:49,330 -->237 00:25:38,530 -->236 00:25:33,730 -->235 00:25:23,020 -->234 00:25:21,760 -->233 00:25:18,160 -->232 00:25:08,500 -->231 00:25:03,730 -->230 00:25:00,280 -->229 00:24:52,190 -->228 00:24:42,820 -->227 00:24:32,630 -->226 00:24:25,930 -->225 00:24:21,570 -->224 00:24:12,820 -->223 00:24:07,150 -->222 00:24:03,150 -->221 00:23:55,360 -->220 00:23:44,710 -->219 00:23:42,400 -->218 00:23:31,390 -->217 00:23:25,330 -->216 00:23:15,280 -->215 00:23:12,720 -->214 00:23:07,680 -->213 00:23:01,870 -->212 00:22:54,400 -->211 00:22:49,600 -->210 00:22:43,690 -->209 00:22:39,340 -->208 00:22:29,030 -->207 00:22:21,290 -->206 00:22:17,560 -->205 00:22:14,150 -->204 00:22:08,870 -->203 00:22:02,390 -->202 00:22:00,740 -->201 00:21:55,700 -->200 00:21:49,730 -->199 00:21:44,050 -->198 00:21:37,760 -->197 00:21:34,070 -->196 00:21:27,350 -->195 00:21:18,550 -->194 00:21:14,240 -->193 00:21:11,280 -->192 00:21:07,380 -->191 00:21:01,430 -->190 00:20:55,340 -->189 00:20:43,550 -->188 00:20:38,810 -->187 00:20:31,220 -->186 00:20:21,440 -->185 00:20:14,840 -->184 00:20:08,330 -->183 00:20:00,020 -->182 00:19:55,320 -->181 00:19:51,200 -->180 00:19:43,520 -->179 00:19:36,110 -->178 00:19:28,790 -->177 00:19:19,130 -->176 00:19:13,970 -->175 00:19:09,160 -->174 00:19:03,180 -->173 00:18:57,700 -->172 00:18:52,460 -->171 00:18:43,460 -->170 00:18:40,190 -->169 00:18:32,120 -->168 00:18:21,680 -->167 00:18:16,820 -->166 00:18:09,590 -->165 00:18:04,160 -->164 00:17:56,960 -->163 00:17:50,650 -->162 00:17:48,050 -->161 00:17:38,630 -->160 00:17:33,500 -->159 00:17:25,640 -->158 00:17:21,220 -->157 00:17:15,620 -->156 00:17:08,480 -->155 00:17:04,400 -->154 00:16:58,890 -->153 00:16:56,750 -->152 00:16:49,880 -->151 00:16:43,310 -->150 00:16:35,630 -->149 00:16:23,570 -->148 00:16:20,010 -->147 00:16:16,190 -->146 00:16:09,680 -->145 00:15:59,810 -->144 00:15:56,870 -->143 00:15:50,060 -->142 00:15:35,000 -->141 00:15:28,670 -->140 00:15:21,650 -->139 00:15:13,490 -->138 00:15:01,940 -->137 00:14:54,620 -->136 00:14:45,900 -->135 00:14:37,490 -->134 00:14:32,030 -->133 00:14:22,430 -->132 00:14:14,010 -->131 00:14:06,440 -->130 00:14:01,040 -->129 00:13:53,910 -->128 00:13:49,470 -->127 00:13:46,080 -->126 00:13:39,750 -->125 00:13:34,230 -->124 00:13:28,980 -->123 00:13:22,500 -->122 00:13:14,390 -->121 00:13:06,120 -->120 00:12:57,270 -->119 00:12:49,890 -->118 00:12:44,670 -->117 00:12:36,030 -->116 00:12:31,080 -->115 00:12:21,660 -->114 00:12:17,970 -->113 00:12:10,440 -->112 00:12:01,800 -->111 00:11:51,090 -->110 00:11:48,690 -->109 00:11:43,680 -->108 00:11:39,540 -->107 00:11:32,400 -->106 00:11:22,820 -->105 00:11:19,110 -->104 00:11:09,660 -->103 00:10:56,880 -->102 00:10:50,820 -->101 00:10:40,420 -->100 00:10:32,110 -->99 00:10:20,160 -->98 00:10:16,820 -->97 00:10:10,870 -->96 00:10:05,010 -->95 00:09:58,600 -->94 00:09:47,010 -->93 00:09:41,820 -->92 00:09:33,510 -->91 00:09:30,090 -->90 00:09:23,970 -->89 00:09:17,070 -->88 00:09:12,170 -->87 00:09:01,740 -->86 00:08:56,400 -->85 00:08:50,420 -->84 00:08:43,830 -->83 00:08:38,250 -->82 00:08:32,890 -->81 00:08:23,290 -->80 00:08:17,950 -->79 00:08:09,580 -->78 00:08:00,040 -->77 00:07:58,210 -->76 00:07:50,590 -->75 00:07:40,420 -->74 00:07:35,920 -->73 00:07:27,190 -->72 00:07:20,530 -->71 00:07:12,630 -->70 00:07:10,420 -->69 00:07:06,310 -->68 00:07:02,900 -->67 00:06:58,420 -->66 00:06:49,480 -->65 00:06:45,470 -->64 00:06:38,470 -->63 00:06:34,930 -->62 00:06:29,020 -->61 00:06:19,690 -->60 00:06:12,610 -->59 00:06:10,650 -->58 00:06:05,890 -->57 00:06:02,440 -->56 00:05:55,870 -->55 00:05:50,380 -->54 00:05:46,240 -->53 00:05:38,170 -->52 00:05:33,350 -->51 00:05:27,650 -->50 00:05:21,020 -->49 00:05:15,740 -->48 00:05:03,920 -->47 00:04:59,150 -->46 00:04:54,650 -->45 00:04:44,420 -->44 00:04:35,930 -->43 00:04:29,580 -->42 00:04:22,570 -->41 00:04:16,440 -->40 00:04:12,030 -->39 00:04:08,120 -->38 00:04:02,120 -->37 00:03:57,050 -->36 00:03:53,150 -->35 00:03:49,580 -->34 00:03:43,530 -->33 00:03:37,480 -->32 00:03:28,610 -->31 00:03:20,540 -->30 00:03:16,070 -->29 00:03:11,330 -->28 00:03:01,610 -->27 00:02:56,240 -->26 00:02:50,990 -->25 00:02:41,780 -->24 00:02:34,280 -->23 00:02:32,030 -->22 00:02:27,350 -->21 00:02:23,930 -->20 00:02:14,370 -->19 00:02:08,770 -->18 00:02:04,970 -->17 00:01:59,540 -->16 00:01:53,660 -->15 00:01:45,260 -->14 00:01:38,180 -->13 00:01:32,810 -->12 00:01:26,390 -->11 00:01:20,180 -->10 00:01:12,920 -->9 00:01:07,910 -->8 00:00:58,310 -->7 00:00:54,050 -->6 00:00:46,640 -->5 00:00:39,770 -->4 00:00:34,550 -->3 00:00:27,590 -->2 00:00:23,510 -->1 00:00:10,940 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Denise Wilkins, Researcher at Microsoft Research.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:28,000 It's Kelly Preece here research development manager ing the University of Exeter Doctor College. 3 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000 And I'll be your host for this episode. 4 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:40,000 I'm delighted to be talking to another University of Exeter doctoral alumnus, Denise Wilkins, who is currently working as a researcher in industry. 5 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:50,000 Denise, are you happy to introduce yourself, I'm Denise Wilkins and I'm a social scientist and I work at Microsoft Research in Cambridge. 6 00:00:50,000 --> 00:01:00,000 So my job there really is to conduct research. So I'll be trying to understand people. 7 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:06,000 Social scientists trying to understand their needs and really try to feed insights back 8 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:13,000 to people who are looking at the future of technology development to really think how, 9 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:22,000 you know, what I'm hearing, what I'm talking to, people might translate and be applied to products that we might want to develop in the longer term. 10 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000 And so at the moment, we're working in a theme called The Future of Work. 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So we're really interested to understand what the work might look like in the future and how technology might support that. 12 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,000 And my project is looking at knowledge in large organisations, say, 13 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:49,000 trying to find ways to help workers in large organisations share knowledge and have knowledge kind of more available to them in their work. 14 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:56,000 What was your research degree in at Exeter? My degree was in psychology. 15 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Say it was it was very kind of similar themes. 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:09,000 I was looking at technology and in particular I was looking at a social media and how it might affect people's willingness to engage in activism. 17 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:15,000 So to put it, I was really inspired by things like the Arab Spring and where you might have 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,000 seen or have kind of had news stories that social media played a role in, 19 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:29,000 acts as a catalyst by inspiring people to go on the streets. But at the same time, there was also kind of a slacktivism narrative going on which said, 20 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,000 well, you know, people are just like him things and sharing things on social media. 21 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,000 And they're not really kind of going on the ground and doing the hard effort. So really 22 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Well, what I tried to do in my PhD was to really understand when and how social media might facilitate activism 23 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:51,000 and social change and what are the type of circumstances where it might maybe have a different effect. 24 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:59,000 And reduce people's willingness to do that. On what? When might it have more kind of negative effects and social change? 25 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,000 So although I was in psychology, 26 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:09,000 my research will always have the interest in people and technology and how technology can be a positive driver for change. 27 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:18,000 And that's kind of followed me on to my work at Microsoft. So I'm interested to know what what your plan was, I guess, 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:25,000 when you were doing the coming to the end of your research degree in the write-up, which is incredibly challenging in and of itself. 29 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Did you have a clear plan of what you wanted to do afterwards? Was the plan always to go into a research career in industry? 30 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Yeah. Well, at the time, I don't think I was aware. 31 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,000 of the different options and career paths that there were. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000 And I knew that I love researching. I knew that I love talking to people. 33 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,000 And I knew that I wanted to have an impact, say, 34 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:56,000 thinking about how technology so pervasive in our everyday lives and how new technology is being created all the time. 35 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:04,000 I was aware that, you know, that there are kind of negative impacts that technology can have, say how can. 36 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,000 And so the idea as a researcher take a role in shaping that. 37 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,000 And I wasn't really sure then about the opportunities that existed in industry. 38 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:19,000 It wasn't something that I heard much about. You know, psychology's part of STEM in Exeter. 39 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:28,000 So I often heard about people with like a chemistry or biology degrees and how they might go to kind of pharmaceutical companies. 40 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:35,000 But I didn't really hear much of the narrative about what kind of psychology PhD could do with their degree. 41 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:44,000 So I wasn't really aware and I was mostly looking for the kind of jobs in academia and postdocs in academia. 42 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:50,000 And I actually I went on. And prior to working in Microsoft, I did a postdoc and I Exeter. 43 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,000 So that was with the same P.I. 44 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,000 He supervised me for my PhD. And that was looking at a different form of technology in different contexts. 45 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:07,000 And I was looking at block chain and how and how it could be used to create new peer-to-peer energy markets. 46 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:14,000 I was looking at the energy sector there. It was only when I started doing that postdoc 47 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:22,000 One of the other researchers on the same project really told me about kind of user research. 48 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:32,000 They told me about HCI as a field. And they told me about my research in Cambridge and how they do lots of they have lots of engagement, 49 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:39,000 kind of which social science and which social scientists that there really is a role for kind of social scientists in large 50 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 organisations like that and engaging with different users and generating insights that can be used by design and developers. 51 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,000 So was that an immediate move? 52 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:55,000 So when you finished your postdoc, did you go straight to a job at Microsoft Research or was there something in between? 53 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:01,000 Yeah, there wasn't anything in between. So from talking to her it just sounded really inspirational 54 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,000 It sounded kind of exactly what I wanted to do 55 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:18,000 So no, on the one hand and. So Microsoft research is slightly different from like Microsoft, so there's kind of two arms to Microsoft. 56 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:25,000 You have sort of Microsoft and the product groups and they'd be directly they still do user research 57 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:31,000 and they and they would be directly trying to impact the products we use every day in the short term. 58 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:42,000 So it really is. As far as I totally understand that it's about sort of what really focussed on finding insights that can improve specific products. 59 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Whereas Microsoft Research has its longer term or indeed vision. 60 00:06:48,000 --> 00:07:00,000 So I'm not part of any particular project, product group, but I hope to have insights that could perhaps impact and shape any of the products. 61 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,000 And other large tech companies have similar. 62 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,000 You have Google and you've got Google product groups, but you will see what people research. 63 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,000 So, yeah, that's that's kind of one of the splits that you have. 64 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:23,000 So really what I liked about Microsoft research is that you have the opportunity to have the real world impact on the products. 65 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:29,000 And by really doing that I'm aiming for that kind of thought leadership and find it, 66 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:37,000 finding these insights that can impact the longer term vision that there really is this kind of academic community. 67 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:43,000 So we're encouraged to write publications and to submit them to journals and to conferences. 68 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,000 Really, really there is this academic engagement. 69 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:58,000 We also have. So that's another reason why that's those kind of opportunities with Microsoft Research really appealed 70 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:05,000 to me because I felt like it ticked both of the boxes of what I really loved about being in academia. 71 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:14,000 So on the one hand, trying to have real world impact or say being part of a broader academic and scientific community where you're able to sort of 72 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:21,000 push your learnings out more broadly and beyond kind of the immediate project that you might be working on through publications, 73 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:27,000 for example. Yes, and what you're saying about not being aware of the opportunities in industry, 74 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:36,000 but particularly where social science type research might be happening in industry is something we hear a lot for from students. 75 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:44,000 So from what you're saying, it sounds like there were a lot of similarities between the role that you're doing now and a research role in academia. 76 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:51,000 So could you talk a little bit about what the differences are? So what's different about researching in industry compared to academia? 77 00:08:51,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Yeah. So I think, you know, one of those pieces that I like, which is much stronger is is the impact. 78 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:13,000 Say, I feel like maybe for me as a junior researcher in a university, that idea of impact was probably quite far from my mind. 79 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,000 So I want to see the research I wanted to write out for publication. 80 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,000 And then you heard stories about people talking about impact are more senior. 81 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Well, I never really knew what that meant. I didn't really know how I would go about having impact. 82 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:36,000 And I think sometimes on a personal level, I would think I'm I'm doing research and I'm I'm writing papers. 83 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:43,000 But who's reading them. Who's going to do something with them. 84 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,000 Is is it other folk from the psychology community, which is great. 85 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:54,000 But, you know, how can you go beyond your community and and really encourage people who are designing technology to do it differently? 86 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And for me. That was just perhaps a kind of psychological gap in my head, 87 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:08,000 like I couldn't see how those steps joined up, whereas in my soul, for me, it's much clearer. 88 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:18,000 And so I'm just a really practical examples. We have regular meetings, we have different product groups, and I'll be sharing my insights with them. 89 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,000 So really, the stakeholders of the research are really clear. 90 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:31,000 And, you know, you have those in mind when you're trying to design the research and you have the opportunity to really think, 91 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,000 well, how how might this kind of shape shape their thinking? 92 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,000 So that's the kind of steps are a lot clearer to me, which is one thing that I really liked. 93 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,000 I think it perhaps changes some of the type of things you might produce. 94 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,000 So I think sometimes in sort of academia where we're taught to write 95 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Kind of papers and the papers can be really long. And, you know, people are really interested in the details. 96 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,000 So they want to know exactly what methods you used and they'll want to know a 97 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:08,000 lot about kind of the background and your kind of theoretical justification. And again, I want to know at the end, 98 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:16,000 how does how what other kind of impacts of this and other academics will really have time to kind of read those long papers. 99 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,000 And we need to still learnings from it. 100 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:26,000 But I think one of the things in industry is that you're trying to communicate # to lots of different people. 101 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000 And some people they might be the same specialism as you. 102 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,000 So there might be other social scientists and I might have a lot more time to read all of that. 103 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:40,000 But you also might be talking to kind of leaders or designers or people need to make that decision about their product really quickly. 104 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,000 So they will just really want to have something that they can absorb like, say, 105 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:52,000 really a PowerPoint and they just want to know on know even two slides, like what are the key things I need to know? 106 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,000 And so it's about communicating a lot and a lot more kind of concise ways. 107 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:07,000 And also perhaps not being afraid to have an opinion and how they're a strength and say these are tje recommendations is what I would advise you today. 108 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,000 And again, for me, at least in academia. I felt like that wasn't something that I did before. 109 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:19,000 I didn't really make lots of presentations, only occasionally of us going to a conference, for example. 110 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:26,000 And again, I, I think it was just my personality but I would shy away from making really strong recommendations and say, 111 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,000 well, because of this study, we need to be X, Y and Z. 112 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,000 But that's really what people are looking for in industry. 113 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000 You to give the practical recommendations for that for that work and what they should do next. 114 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So I'm hearing a lot and what you're saying about the core skill set that you use in your current role 115 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:50,000 and communication in a variety different forms and formats seems to be an important part of that. 116 00:12:50,000 --> 00:13:01,000 But I wonder what other sort of general skills did you learn or develop during your research degree that you use on a daily basis now? 117 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:14,000 I think because of my degree, I think one of. The core skills that I learnt was really planning research and then sort of learning 118 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,000 how to conduct research on having sort of a variety of different research methods. 119 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:28,000 So really that kind of expertise with people and being able to interview people and get them to talk to you about whatever, 120 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:34,000 whatever topic they might they might have and then really been able to put that together into a narrative. 121 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:45,000 So I feel that's one of kind of the strongest, the strongest skills that I've kind of taken from my PhD 122 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000 So something that I think would be really interesting for our listeners is that you've 123 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:55,000 interviewed and been successful for a research job in academia and in industry. 124 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,000 So can you talk about the interview, and application processes for those roles? 125 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And if they were similar or if they were different and if so, what the differences were and they were different. 126 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:15,000 So the the entry process at Microsoft was much longer. 127 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000 So there were a number of calls first. 128 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:32,000 I think first I submitted an application, which was I think it was a CV and maybe maybe a statement, a short statement as to why the job was with. 129 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Interesting. And then I had a call from a recruiter. 130 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,000 He just really wanted to cover some kind of fundamental thing. 131 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:49,000 So the job I actually have with Microsoft, it is called a postdoc. 132 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,000 So it was just really checking things of, you know, how have I finished my PhD? 133 00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:04,000 And just trying to get the basics to kind of field. And then I was passed on to a telephone interview with the person who is now my manager. 134 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:10,000 So I think she interviewed me, for about an hour. 135 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:20,000 And then after that, I got invited to the lab where I would give a presentation, say the presentation was an hour. 136 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:28,000 And then I had an interviews with one to one interviews with a number of different researchers at the lab. 137 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:34,000 So it really was like a whole When I was there, it was really like a whole day event, the number of different activities. 138 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:44,000 Whereas my postdoc, Exeter, I did the I think it was the normal application of the CV and the cover letter. 139 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:51,000 And then I got invited to an interview and I was interviewed by a panel of three people who ask questions. 140 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000 And I think, you know, that interview was for less than an hour. 141 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,000 So I think that the length and the number of stages was much different. 142 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:10,000 And in industry compared to the university, you know, and I think because the task the difference I didn't give a presentation, 143 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,000 was interviewed at the university, say again, that had a different type of preparation. 144 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,000 So I had to kind of put the presentation together. 145 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:26,000 But I think in terms of like the the fundamental preparation for the interview and thinking, you know, why do you want the job? 146 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Why what have you got to offer? How does that fit into your career path? 147 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Why this organisation? Why this role? And those things were great. 148 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:43,000 And also say when I was applying for both jobs I got help from the career service at Exeter. 149 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:49,000 So I had a one to one session with one of the career advisers. 150 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:58,000 She specifically helps PhD students. And that was really sort of invaluable both times in terms of sort like just helping me think about it. 151 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:06,000 So I really felt like that kind of preparation that I did beforehand would be really key. 152 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:14,000 And I would encourage anybody who's applying for any type of job, reallu to put the work into that preparation. 153 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:22,000 You know, any any might even that work might even span a few days when you go away and you'll really be searching and understanding things. 154 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000 So, yeah, 155 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:30,000 I feel like that was something that really helped me with both with being able to do that kind of up from preparation and get my my head into space. 156 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,000 So I need kind of a story that I wanted to tell. Absolutely. 157 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:41,000 And did you find you articulated that story and those skills differently in the different contexts? 158 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,000 I feel like it was similar. Yeah, I do feel like it was similar. 159 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,000 I think because, you know, the job I have with Microsoft is a postdoc. 160 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,000 So they are expecting somebody. who doesn't have you know 161 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Somebody who i new to industry is somebody who has completed a PhD and they're looking for that kind of first industry position. 162 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,000 So they weren't you we'd expect me to come and say, you know, I've got years of, you know, 163 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:16,000 working with product groups and, you know, delivering insights and having this massive impact on how organisations run. 164 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:26,000 And it really was trying to articulate how the findings from kind of my my PhD, for example, 165 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:34,000 of how some of the findings that I have could be relevant and impactful for them and kind of Microsoft as stakeholders. 166 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:43,000 What would that look like? And I think that was kind of similar. to my postdoc interview in academia, they really want to kind of, you know, 167 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:49,000 know some of those kind of transferable skills, so the postdoc that I did at Exeter. 168 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,000 And it was a completely different topic. 169 00:18:52,000 --> 00:19:01,000 But they wanted to able you know what what skills would you bring and how how would she make sure that they that that could benefit all project? 170 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,000 So I feel like that was there were lots of similarities. Yeah. 171 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:12,000 It sounds like the threads between the different research roles in different contexts are actually really strong. 172 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Can you talk to me a little bit about your average, say? I know there's no such thing as an average day right now, 173 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:27,000 but how different is you kind of working day and working life to when you were a research degree student and a postdoc? 174 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:34,000 So I think my average day I'm now in industry is quite different to how it was as a PhD student. 175 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:41,000 And for me, at least mostly in my PhD, I was really working on on my own. 176 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:49,000 Say, a lot of the time I was in wasn't meeting with many other people to discuss my research. 177 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Other than my academic supervisors, I'm very rarely. 178 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:01,000 I would give maybe a presentation to kind of the lab group that we had. 179 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:09,000 So it really was a very individual work. I felt like I was kind of doing it for myself. 180 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000 And I also felt like, you know, this is for me when I'm ready to 181 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Share that. When once I got the paper or once I've done the presentation, I'll share that with other people. 182 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:29,000 But I think the kind of flipside of that was always that question. My model, who's really interested in the in the results of this? 183 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:36,000 Like, what's going to happen to it later? Whereas in Microsoft, it's much more collaborative. 184 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,000 So I'm working as part of a multidisciplinary team, so there's designers on the team. 185 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:50,000 And there's machine only researchers and theire's engineers. And we have sort of regular meetings throughout the week. 186 00:20:50,000 --> 00:21:01,000 So in any one day I might be meeting with the team members to tell them about the things I've been doing, so to update on 187 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,000 The things I've been doing during the week, or also to hear about what they've been doing. 188 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:14,000 I might be helping people conduct their own research, say some of the designers they do research on might be helping them like recruit participants. 189 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,000 I might be helping them think about some of their findings and distil insights. 190 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:27,000 I might be kind of contributing to a PowerPoint that we're making to show other people the work we've done. 191 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,000 And there is I might be I might be participating in a brainstorm or workshop where we're 192 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,000 trying to understand the next phase of the project and what some of our priorities are. 193 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:44,000 But there is still space for individual work. So I would still conduct my research studies. 194 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:52,000 I'd be doing literature reviews. I'd be doing going through an ethics process, say, to get ethical approval for my study. 195 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:58,000 I'd be analysing the results and trying to trying to write these up and trying to write papers. 196 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:07,000 And there is also an we have sort of a kind of lab culture say I'm part of the future of work theme. 197 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:14,000 And every other week we would have a meeting where we would, for example, listen a presentation from one of the other researchers. 198 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,000 So I think really my day could be split up with any of those tasks, depending on what stage I'm in the project. 199 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,000 And I wouldn't. There is no one day that looks the same. 200 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:33,000 And I think those types of tasks on that kind of individual level, they are very similar to what I was doing in my PhD 201 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:43,000 And there is this other collaborative layer where you are really part of a bigger team and anybody trying to kind of help the team be successful, 202 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:52,000 which I feel is different from from my PhD because it was kind of a very individual project and working style. 203 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:01,000 So thinking about the emphasis on collaborative working, what experiences did you have as a research student that helped prepare you for this way 204 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,000 of working or helped you develop the skill set that you would need in the workplace? 205 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:15,000 I got involved in different types of extracurricular activities, I feel like that helped more than what was in my PhD per se 206 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,000 So when I was Exeter, 207 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:28,000 that was the opportunity to be a facilitator on Grand Challenges Week and so that was really a great point of collaboration for me in trying to 208 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:37,000 kind of think about what what kind of team of undergraduates are doing and how I might also support them in their work and kind of facilitate them. 209 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:44,000 So that didn't feel as kind of individual. And there were other things that I did. 210 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:55,000 So I I'd be included on a grant application, it wasn't successful, but I kind of helped prepare some of the work for that. 211 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:04,000 So there were kind of brainstorms and kind of workshops, sessions, and people were collaboratively authoring kind of documents. 212 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:10,000 So that was really another aspect that really facilitated that. 213 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,000 And another thing that I. 214 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:25,000 got involved with was the widening participation programme at Exeter so that's with the with the residential team, say and also open days as well. 215 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,000 So those I was working as part of a team where we collaborated said, think about what? 216 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,000 What activities do you want today? Well, some of the things you want to present to people. 217 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:40,000 So I felt like those extra curricular things were what really helped. 218 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,000 And we have that kind of collaboration aspect in my PhD 219 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:53,000 And I also mentioned the postdoc I did at Exeter. was looking at the kind of peer-to-peer energy markets. 220 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:03,000 And that was more collaborative that because I was working in a multidisciplinary team with computer scientists and software engineers and say, yeah, 221 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,000 that was a lot more collaborative in terms if we had more kind of regular meetings where we would 222 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,000 give updates about the work that we've done and look at the different kind of pieces of work, 223 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,000 we tried to understand how the different pieces kind of fit together. 224 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000 So I felt like it wasn't perhaps things that I did kind of directly through my PhD 225 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000 But I felt that there were other things that I got involved in during my PhD that helped. 226 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 So what other extra curricular things you got involved with that really important 227 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:39,000 or formative for moving onto the stock and your current job at Microsoft Research? 228 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,000 Yeah. So I know that I got I took part in a summer school as well. 229 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:53,000 So in the psychology department and social psychologists, we're part of a broader kind of the European association social psychologists. 230 00:25:53,000 --> 00:26:00,000 And there was a summer school. So I took part in that. And that was in a way of about how we have kind of grand challenges for the undergrads. 231 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,000 It was sort of you kind of came in for I think it was a week or two weeks and 232 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,000 we just tackled like a brand new problem or brand new area of research us 233 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:16,000 And we kind of worked in small groups and we thought about what a study would look like and what kind of questions we'd want to ask, 234 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:24,000 what kind of data we want to collect. So that kind of rapid and that trying to gain a rapid understanding of any topic and 235 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,000 then tried to kind of spend that up into what kind of project proposal might look like. 236 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:37,000 That was really good as well. So I think. Those types of opportunities where you know that you can be working with other people, 237 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:43,000 doing a different type of task than you might do in your everyday work. That was good. 238 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:51,000 And yeah, I had a few other things that I did so that I always kind of get the names of the schemes 239 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000 but I think it was I think this actually came under public outreach. 240 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:04,000 So when I got involved in things like the Sidmouth Science Festival and put together, I just sort of like a little demo from psychology, 241 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000 but just got me talking to other audiences say those are kids, you know, 242 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:16,000 young children and members of the public and say again, you know, I didn't even talk about my own research. 243 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 I feel like sometimes that's a barrier or you might think, oh, I don't have anything to say about my research, 244 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:27,000 but I just talked to them about kind of classic psychology experiments and bought them things that they could play with. 245 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:34,000 So there's a little bit of an IQ test that they got to kind of shift ground blocks and try to put patterns together. 246 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,000 But I think that as well, 247 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:43,000 it just helped me just with communication skills and thinking about how to explain kind of research to people who aren't academics. 248 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:50,000 So, yeah, I thought both in the communication and in just kind of planning that and setting them up and talking about the team, 249 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:56,000 all we got to do and how are we going to do that? That was also another aspect of collaboration. 250 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,000 So thinking about those those extra curricular things you did, you know, Sidmouth Science Festival, 251 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:06,000 Granch challenges the summer school, going to a careers consultant for one to one appointment. 252 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:13,000 What other advice would you give to current research degree students to. 253 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,000 What opportunities do you think they should make the most of during their research 254 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,000 degree to help them prepare for that transition to a career in research, 255 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:31,000 but also a role outside of academia? Yes. So I think the one thing that I didn't do, which I've learnt about, is internships. 256 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,000 So, you know, so organisations like Microsoft Research. 257 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:43,000 But I think anybody anybody's interested, potentially interested in tech in the summer. 258 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Lots of these companies have internships where they're looking to these students. 259 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000 They're paid. They're like well paid. 260 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:57,000 And you can go for three months over the summer, say, I think a lot of places they start to kind of advertise things in September, 261 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000 say, you know, it's a bit of forward planning involved. 262 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:07,000 But I would definitely say to look and see if there's an internship in the type of area that you might be interested in, 263 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,000 because it really does give you a head start on. 264 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,000 You know, some people come back and do the internship every single year. 265 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 So they, you know, they start in their first year. 266 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,000 And then by the end of their third year, they've done an internship with the organisation three, three times. 267 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:30,000 And you really think, you know, they've almost got kind of years work experience directly in the industry that they want to go into. 268 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,000 But even if you do the internship and you might think, oh, actually, 269 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:39,000 this isn't anything like I thought it's going to be and I've I've realised I don't want to do this. 270 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000 I think it will give you a whole new set of skills that you probably wouldn't get from your PhD 271 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:50,000 And also, it gives you that learning. It might give you that closer understanding of what is it that I want today. 272 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:56,000 And I think even if you kind of really feel strongly I want to go into academia 273 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,000 and doing something like an internship might help you get industry connections. 274 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,000 So when you're thinking about, like your own grants and how you might want to have an industry sponsor when 275 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,000 they're doing internships with a relevant industry could help you get a build. 276 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:16,000 That network can have these connections where later you can say, oh, actually, maybe I can find out these can be an industry partner on a grant. 277 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:22,000 So I would definitely advise you to look for these things. 278 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:31,000 I think one of the challenges that I always had thinking about my career was I had relatively limited geographic mobility. 279 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,000 So I know that lots of people end up going abroad after their PhD 280 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,000 And, you know, for me, because of my family circumstances, that wasn't an option. 281 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:53,000 But I would encourage people here don't underestimate like what companies are kind of not too far off on your doorstep. 282 00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:03,000 I really I didn't even know that Microsoft had a lab in Cambridge and other companies in London isn't isn't too far from Exeter. 283 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:10,000 So, you know, you might be surprised kind of what there os and what they're doing, the type of opportunities that they have. 284 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,000 And so I'd really encourage you to think about that. 285 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:22,000 And I'd just talk to people who I talk to people at conferences and yeah, just reach out to people on linkedin 286 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,000 If you think they're really interesting and even if they're not somebody you could work directly, 287 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:33,000 they287 00:31:27,000 -->286 00:31:22,000 -->285 00:31:13,000 -->284 00:31:10,000 -->283 00:31:03,000 -->282 00:30:53,000 -->281 00:30:44,000 -->280 00:30:38,000 -->279 00:30:31,000 -->278 00:30:22,000 -->277 00:30:16,000 -->276 00:30:09,000 -->275 00:30:04,000 -->274 00:30:00,000 -->273 00:29:56,000 -->272 00:29:50,000 -->271 00:29:44,000 -->270 00:29:39,000 -->269 00:29:33,000 -->268 00:29:30,000 -->267 00:29:23,000 -->266 00:29:17,000 -->265 00:29:14,000 -->264 00:29:10,000 -->263 00:29:07,000 -->262 00:28:59,000 -->261 00:28:57,000 -->260 00:28:50,000 -->259 00:28:46,000 -->258 00:28:43,000 -->257 00:28:36,000 -->256 00:28:31,000 -->255 00:28:22,000 -->254 00:28:17,000 -->253 00:28:13,000 -->252 00:28:06,000 -->251 00:28:00,000 -->250 00:27:56,000 -->249 00:27:50,000 -->248 00:27:43,000 -->247 00:27:35,000 -->246 00:27:34,000 -->245 00:27:27,000 -->244 00:27:21,000 -->243 00:27:16,000 -->242 00:27:08,000 -->241 00:27:04,000 -->240 00:26:54,000 -->239 00:26:51,000 -->238 00:26:43,000 -->237 00:26:37,000 -->236 00:26:29,000 -->235 00:26:24,000 -->234 00:26:16,000 -->233 00:26:09,000 -->232 00:26:05,000 -->231 00:26:00,000 -->230 00:25:53,000 -->229 00:25:42,000 -->228 00:25:39,000 -->227 00:25:32,000 -->226 00:25:27,000 -->225 00:25:21,000 -->224 00:25:16,000 -->223 00:25:12,000 -->222 00:25:07,000 -->221 00:25:03,000 -->220 00:24:53,000 -->219 00:24:46,000 -->218 00:24:40,000 -->217 00:24:35,000 -->216 00:24:30,000 -->215 00:24:25,000 -->214 00:24:12,000 -->213 00:24:10,000 -->212 00:24:04,000 -->211 00:23:55,000 -->210 00:23:44,000 -->209 00:23:37,000 -->208 00:23:28,000 -->207 00:23:16,000 -->206 00:23:15,000 -->205 00:23:06,000 -->204 00:23:01,000 -->203 00:22:52,000 -->202 00:22:43,000 -->201 00:22:33,000 -->200 00:22:25,000 -->199 00:22:22,000 -->198 00:22:14,000 -->197 00:22:07,000 -->196 00:21:58,000 -->195 00:21:52,000 -->194 00:21:44,000 -->193 00:21:37,000 -->192 00:21:32,000 -->191 00:21:27,000 -->190 00:21:19,000 -->189 00:21:14,000 -->188 00:21:06,000 -->187 00:21:01,000 -->186 00:20:50,000 -->185 00:20:42,000 -->184 00:20:36,000 -->183 00:20:29,000 -->182 00:20:22,000 -->181 00:20:15,000 -->180 00:20:09,000 -->179 00:20:01,000 -->178 00:19:55,000 -->177 00:19:49,000 -->176 00:19:41,000 -->175 00:19:34,000 -->174 00:19:27,000 -->173 00:19:19,000 -->172 00:19:12,000 -->171 00:19:04,000 -->170 00:19:01,000 -->169 00:18:52,000 -->168 00:18:49,000 -->167 00:18:43,000 -->166 00:18:34,000 -->165 00:18:26,000 -->164 00:18:16,000 -->163 00:18:07,000 -->162 00:18:02,000 -->161 00:17:55,000 -->160 00:17:49,000 -->159 00:17:45,000 -->158 00:17:41,000 -->157 00:17:34,000 -->156 00:17:30,000 -->155 00:17:23,000 -->154 00:17:22,000 -->153 00:17:14,000 -->152 00:17:06,000 -->151 00:16:58,000 -->150 00:16:49,000 -->149 00:16:43,000 -->148 00:16:35,000 -->147 00:16:30,000 -->146 00:16:26,000 -->145 00:16:18,000 -->144 00:16:15,000 -->143 00:16:10,000 -->142 00:16:02,000 -->141 00:15:56,000 -->140 00:15:51,000 -->139 00:15:44,000 -->138 00:15:34,000 -->137 00:15:28,000 -->136 00:15:20,000 -->135 00:15:10,000 -->134 00:15:04,000 -->133 00:14:54,000 -->132 00:14:49,000 -->131 00:14:43,000 -->130 00:14:38,000 -->129 00:14:32,000 -->128 00:14:19,000 -->127 00:14:15,000 -->126 00:14:07,000 -->125 00:13:59,000 -->124 00:13:55,000 -->123 00:13:49,000 -->122 00:13:45,000 -->121 00:13:34,000 -->120 00:13:28,000 -->119 00:13:18,000 -->118 00:13:14,000 -->117 00:13:01,000 -->116 00:12:50,000 -->115 00:12:44,000 -->114 00:12:38,000 -->113 00:12:33,000 -->112 00:12:30,000 -->111 00:12:26,000 -->110 00:12:19,000 -->109 00:12:13,000 -->108 00:12:07,000 -->107 00:11:56,000 -->106 00:11:52,000 -->105 00:11:44,000 -->104 00:11:40,000 -->103 00:11:33,000 -->102 00:11:29,000 -->101 00:11:26,000 -->100 00:11:19,000 -->99 00:11:16,000 -->98 00:11:08,000 -->97 00:11:02,000 -->96 00:10:57,000 -->95 00:10:51,000 -->94 00:10:46,000 -->93 00:10:40,000 -->92 00:10:35,000 -->91 00:10:31,000 -->90 00:10:23,000 -->89 00:10:18,000 -->88 00:10:08,000 -->87 00:10:01,000 -->86 00:09:54,000 -->85 00:09:46,000 -->84 00:09:43,000 -->83 00:09:36,000 -->82 00:09:30,000 -->81 00:09:23,000 -->80 00:09:18,000 -->79 00:09:13,000 -->78 00:09:00,000 -->77 00:08:51,000 -->76 00:08:44,000 -->75 00:08:36,000 -->74 00:08:27,000 -->73 00:08:21,000 -->72 00:08:14,000 -->71 00:08:05,000 -->70 00:07:58,000 -->69 00:07:48,000 -->68 00:07:43,000 -->67 00:07:37,000 -->66 00:07:29,000 -->65 00:07:23,000 -->64 00:07:13,000 -->63 00:07:09,000 -->62 00:07:04,000 -->61 00:07:00,000 -->60 00:06:48,000 -->59 00:06:42,000 -->58 00:06:31,000 -->57 00:06:25,000 -->56 00:06:18,000 -->55 00:06:05,000 -->54 00:06:01,000 -->53 00:05:55,000 -->52 00:05:49,000 -->51 00:05:48,000 -->50 00:05:39,000 -->49 00:05:32,000 -->48 00:05:22,000 -->47 00:05:14,000 -->46 00:05:07,000 -->45 00:05:00,000 -->44 00:04:54,000 -->43 00:04:50,000 -->42 00:04:44,000 -->41 00:04:35,000 -->40 00:04:28,000 -->39 00:04:19,000 -->38 00:04:12,000 -->37 00:04:08,000 -->36 00:04:04,000 -->35 00:03:56,000 -->34 00:03:49,000 -->33 00:03:46,000 -->32 00:03:40,000 -->31 00:03:36,000 -->30 00:03:33,000 -->29 00:03:25,000 -->28 00:03:18,000 -->27 00:03:09,000 -->26 00:03:02,000 -->25 00:02:59,000 -->24 00:02:51,000 -->23 00:02:45,000 -->22 00:02:37,000 -->21 00:02:33,000 -->20 00:02:29,000 -->19 00:02:20,000 -->18 00:02:15,000 -->17 00:02:09,000 -->16 00:01:59,000 -->15 00:01:56,000 -->14 00:01:49,000 -->13 00:01:40,000 -->12 00:01:35,000 -->11 00:01:27,000 -->10 00:01:22,000 -->9 00:01:13,000 -->8 00:01:06,000 -->7 00:01:00,000 -->6 00:00:50,000 -->5 00:00:40,000 -->4 00:00:30,000 -->3 00:00:28,000 -->2 00:00:15,000 -->1 00:00:10,000 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. James Alsop, who works as a secondary school English teacher.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Hello and welcome to Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:29,000 Hello, it's Kelly Preece and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree. 3 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:37,000 In this episode, I'm talking to Dr James Alsop, a graduate of the University of Exeter who is now working as a secondary school teacher. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:48,000 Are you happy to introduce yourself, James. I'm James Allsopp. I graduated from Exeter in 2015 with my PhD in English. 5 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,000 My thesis was all about the Living Dead in early modern drama. 6 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:00,000 It was cunningly titled Playing Dead because it involves dead things in plays. 7 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,000 I thought I was quite proud of that. I am. It was a four year process. 8 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:16,000 It was a hard, hard, hard fought PhD. And at the end of it, I didn't really have any career trajectory. 9 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,000 For various reasons I'll probably end up talking about in a minute or two. 10 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:33,000 Fast forward, you know, five years or so. And I'm here in Exeter again after a short return home to Essex and I'm teaching. 11 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,000 So I'm teaching English at Torquay Girls Grammar School. 12 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:49,000 And yeah, I've been teaching now for seven years in total with a couple of mini breaks here and there as well. 13 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Yeah, that's been my path. And hopefully I'll fill in the gap between how did I finish the PhD and how did I end up here. 14 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,000 Yeah. So what? I think thinking about it kind of chronologically, 15 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:13,000 what was what was that like to be coming to the end of or getting to the end of the PhD and not knowing what the next step was? 16 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000 So first thing's first I think I made the whole thing sound a little bit easier than it was 17 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000 even though I did emphasise the chronic difficulty of the entire process. 18 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:30,000 I don't if I mean if you're listening to this, I don't necessarily take my example as a model to follow. 19 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:37,000 I had a extremely. I want to say strange, this strange feels like an understatement. 20 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:45,000 I had a frankly bizarre ending to my PhD, so I did my first year of the doctorate 21 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:55,000 And I'm self-funded, by the way. I was very fortunate in that my grandfather was able to pay for my entirePhDprocess. 22 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,000 He gave me his will before he passed away. He is still with us 23 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,000 He's got. That's lovely because he's got the kind of fruits of the labour. 24 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:12,000 He wanted to say, you know, you'll end up with his money at some point, say I have it now and do something with it. 25 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,000 And it was strange because that was very cool having this amazing gift. 26 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,000 But also there was a lot of emotional pressure there. You know, you've got this big pocket of money. 27 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:27,000 All of a sudden it's been spent on your education and you better do something with it. 28 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:32,000 And even in those early days, it felt like the Holy Grail at the end of the PhD 29 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,000 was always this academic career. You know, my role models were academics. 30 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000 My my my academic heroes were people that I looked up to for so long. 31 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,000 And just imagine being in their position one day. 32 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:51,000 Imagine being in that lecture theatre or imagine sharing these ideas and having these amazing conversations and writing books. 33 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:58,000 And, you know, that was the aim that was the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 34 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 But I mean, as we all know, and I imagine anyone listening to this knows, 35 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:09,000 those pots of gold are far rarer than perhaps you imagine at the start of the journey. 36 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:21,000 And being self-funded I had to pay my own way through that first year of the PhD in terms of living expenses and things like that. 37 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 So what I found was I had three Part-Time Jobs on the go one time. 38 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And of course people think of the PhD. As, you know, you're a student, you're learning, you're in education still. 39 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 But as anyone that started the process knows, the PhD is a full time job. 40 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Yeah. You know, it's it's an all consuming beasy 41 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,000 So I was spending my evenings and nights working on this doctorate and my days I was spending so much time, 42 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,000 you know, furthering between, gosh, what did I do? I was a barman. That was cool. 43 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,000 I love being a barman. I was a barista in a coffee bar. 44 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:08,000 Wow. I worked in what was Coffee Express and I think has now turned into I know there's a salon there at the bottom of Devonshire house. 45 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:15,000 It used to be a coffee bar.  I was there in the early morning to do breakfasts for students. 46 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,000 I was a cleaner as well at the Exeter Corn Exchange. 47 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,000 I still get a cold shudder whenever I go out there. 48 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,000 And that's not because it was a bad job or because I saw it as unworthy of me. 49 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:39,000 It's because it was ungodly early hours. I was up at half past three in the morning to get there for a half past four shift. 50 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,000 And I'm not I'm not gonna tell you this because, you know, woe is me or anything like that. 51 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,000 I just want to make it clear, you know, that that first year was intense. I had this huge emotional pressure, 52 00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:01,000 but also this workload that meant I was spending so much time earning money to live in Exeter that I wasn't actually doing much studying in Exeter. 53 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:06,000 I rarely saw my supervisor. And that wasn't because they weren't available. 54 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000 It was just because I wasn't. Yeah. 55 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:17,000 So that was a lot. I moved home in the second year of the degree, which was a godsend. 56 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:23,000 You know, I was lucky enough to be able to move home and live with my parents while I carried on with this PhD 57 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:29,000 And finally, I had time to research. Finally, I had time to start writing. 58 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:34,000 Of course, what that means is now in the back of my mind, I've got this ticking clock. 59 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:43,000 You're in your second year. The third year is approaching and that first year didn't contain much productivity, did it, in any real sense? 60 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 I also needed money. You know, I couldn't live off my parents. 61 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,000 So I had to get a job. I ended up working in a pancake restaurant. 62 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Both things. Oh I know, which is great. 63 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:07,000 You know, I make a mean pancake and a mean omlette to this day, you know, there are skills that I carry with me for the rest of my life. 64 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,000 But, you know, it was a again, it was it was a tough process balancing this. 65 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,000 I lived in Essex, which isn't a million miles away from the British Library, which was grand. 66 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,000 So I'm finally starting to find some balance there. 67 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:28,000 And then the third year of my PhD started and I realised that actually I didn't know what was at the end. 68 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Now, thing is, I because of all the other stuff that in. 69 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Not so much my time. I hadn't got anything published. I've been to one single conference. 70 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000 I hadn't helped to put together any conference panels myself. 71 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:55,000 I hadn't contributed any reviews to any publications. And when you're studying English, when English is your field, you know, 72 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:02,000 the publication is it's a daunting process because there's so much amazing stuff out there. 73 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:10,000 But it's also very solitary process. This was in the days before academic Twitter, I think, took off. 74 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:17,000 And I found that the whole thing intensely lonely. It was very hard to make any any headway there. 75 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,000 I didn't even know what an academic conference was until the end of my second year. 76 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,000 You know, I it feels so strange to say now. 77 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:33,000 So I found myself in this strange place at the start of my third year where I didn't know what was actually going to happen at the end of it. 78 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:48,000 I had a very supportive supervisor who saw me through that, third year by, you know, scrutinising everything I sent her, no matter how terrible it was. 79 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,000 You know, come the end of that third year, I found, you know, I. 80 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:02,000 I didn't know what was actually going to happen once I completed this enormous essay in my mind. 81 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:10,000 I wasn't preparing for a career anymore. I was just surviving I needed to go into a fourth year to complete this PhD. 82 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:19,000 So that that's when things started to turn around for me, out of necessity, I needed to look for jobs. 83 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,000 So I thought academia is not going to happen for me. 84 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000 You know, with my lack of publication history, with my lack of any contacts, there's no way I'm getting a university job. 85 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,000 I don't even know how to apply. And I didn't know it at the time. 86 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:40,000 I'm saying this because I think the context is important. I felt as hopeless as hopeless could get. 87 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,000 And looking back, actually, this period of time was perhaps the best thing that happened to me. 88 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:53,000 It was perhaps the most productive, personally and professionally of my career. 89 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:00,000 You know, that necessity creates opportunity. I think if you look for it, you find it. 90 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,000 And I decided it's, you know, I need a job, I need money. 91 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,000 And to move out of my parents. I went into teaching. 92 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:15,000 It wasn't as easy as I thought to begin with because you need to do teacher training. 93 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,000 And the teacher training programmes on offer, you know, vary between universities. 94 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,000 There are different schemes you can go on. I needed money now. 95 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000 I didn't want any more student debt, really, or I want to minimise that as much as I could. 96 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:33,000 So I went on something called a SCITT school centred initial teacher training. 97 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,000 I went back to my old secondary school and I started doing training there. 98 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:44,000 It was so weird. I was on the other side of the staff room door all of a sudden. 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:51,000 And I'm doing this PhD on the one hand, again, in the evenings during my days, I'm training as a teacher. 100 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:58,000 I'm going on teaching courses. I'm learning how to engage with kids harder than I thought. 101 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Oh, man. And let me make this clear. Subject knowledge does not a good teacher make. 102 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,000 I mean, I can't emphasise that strongly enough. I thought. 103 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Yeah, this will be a cinch. I'm just talking to kids. I'm just talking about English. 104 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:19,000 I can do English. Oh, I could not teach. 105 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:27,000 My training was important. At the same time as I am completing a PhD, doing teacher training, 106 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I am also in the process of moving house because I'm also in the process of getting married. 107 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,000 So again, when I say that my experience isn't necessarily one you can generalise, 108 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:46,000 I feel that that's a fair thing to say because I would not recommend doing two of those things at the same time, 109 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:58,000 let alone all four of them needs must. And I did what I could and every decision I made at the time I made because I felt it needed to happen. 110 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:06,000 I wasn't willing. And perhaps it was a foolish thing in hindsight, I don't know, I wasn't willing to compromise on any one area of my life. 111 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:13,000 I wasn't willing to compromise on my relationship or my PhD or my teacher training. 112 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:27,000 I wanted to start living. I couldn't afford mentally or financially to carry on in this strange, nebulous stopgap zone. 113 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:34,000 I wanted to start being the person I could be. Outside of the PhD 114 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:41,000 And I think that's important. You know, when you're studying for the PhD actually, again, it's a long, long process, 115 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,000 regardless of your subject, regardless if you're working by yourself or part of a team. 116 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:53,000 It's a lot. And you. By the end of it, we'll have a good idea of where you stand academically. 117 00:12:53,000 --> 00:13:01,000 But professionally is still finding your feet professionally. There's a world out there that you haven't had the chance to explore just yet. 118 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,000 I. Fast forward to the end of my teacher training. 119 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:15,000 It was very, very difficult. It was a hard, hard process. I experienced a lot of good, though, you know. 120 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,000 There's nothing more therapeutic, I think, than working with young people. 121 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,000 I think every teacher I've ever spoken to will say the same thing. 122 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:32,000 The very best part of teaching is working in that classroom with those kids, regardless of whether they're in secondary to sixth form here. 123 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:40,000 So whether you're dealing with an 11 year old who's writing a comic strip about Romeo and Juliet or whether 124 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:50,000 you're dealing with a sixth former who's writing a huge assess coursework essay on comparative feminist literature, 125 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,000 you know, whichever age group you're dealing with. 126 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Just being able to sit down with kids and talk through their ideas and help them see the best parts of themselves. 127 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:07,000 That's what teaching is all about. There's loads of negativity. There's loads of financial pressure. 128 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,000 I mean, you don't get paid much. Government are constantly moving goalposts. 129 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:19,000 The things that you need to teach often feel slightly counterintuitive, you know. 130 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:26,000 But the marking. Oh, over marking. 131 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:33,000 But all of that is made worthwhile by being able to work with young people. 132 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,000 That was a lifeline for me. And it's a lifeline during difficult circumstances. 133 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:47,000 Like I said, it was strange working with other adults again after after a long period of being by myself. 134 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,000 It was strange working with with other, you know, young professionals. 135 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,000 And I got a little bit of blowback. You know, I would tell people, hey, this is my story. 136 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,000 I've got a PhD after I'm doing my PhD and I'm doing this as well. 137 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 And there was a lot of I don't know how else to describe it. 138 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,000 But reverse snobbery, you know. 139 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Oh, so you've spent this long at university. You haven't lived. 140 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:21,000 You've come into teaching. What do you think? It was the easy option. And I'm like, well, I did think. 141 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:28,000 And now I know it's not you know, you by doing it, actually, you're working on developing a huge, 142 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:33,000 huge set of skills that will be useful to you in any form of employment. 143 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,000 I know that's the sort of thing I tell you when you start your PhD 144 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000 It's the sort of thing that you hear whenever you go to any kind of, you know, training session on. 145 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:47,000 ok  what do I do once it's done? They'll say that. But I speak from experience. 146 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,000 This is true. You don't know how good you are. 147 00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:00,000 If you're listening to this and you're doing your PhD and it feels like you're struggling and scratching and clawing your way through it, 148 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:06,000 you've got so much to offer the world. You just don't realise it yet. 149 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,000 And you will. Your time will come as mine did. 150 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:19,000 You know, I finished this teacher training. I moved to a grammar school in Chelmsford, in Essex. 151 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:27,000 And I had the best three years, I think, of my life there. 152 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:33,000 The reason for that was simple. I found something that works for me. 153 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,000 I found a job that let me be me. And it scratched that academic itch 154 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,000 It helps me, you know, I think it helped me grow in any number of ways, teaching. 155 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:54,000 But, you know, first and foremost, it allowed me to be academic in a sense, without having all the university pressure on me anymore. 156 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 But also, it gave me something I didn't even realise I was looking for. You know, remember, I was a teacher. 157 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:05,000 That sounds cheesy. I don't care. You know, I say at times, you know, 158 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:13,000 I entered because I needed the job and I thought it would fit and I didn't realise quite how well I would fit into it. 159 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Oh, that rhymes see, teaching is fund. I think it be useful to talk about what the what aspects of your PhD you feel that you use. 160 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000 In your job. Apart from that kind of academic knowledge and like you say, scratching that kind of academic itch. 161 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:41,000 What I discovered was that the PhD had actually given me all these transferable skills and I was in a job where they had the time to shine, I think. 162 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,000 So first of all, even though if you're doing the PhD, you become pretty good at time management pretty quickly, 163 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:51,000 if you don't, you you very quickly learn why time management is useful. 164 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:58,000 And you get a diary and you invest in ways to try to learn very quickly how to become good at time management. 165 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000 It's I mean, it goes without saying a school is run on a clock. You know, you've got every hour of the day. 166 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,000 It's designated to a certain period, a certain subject, a certain class. You've got to be in a certain place at a certain time. 167 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Well, all of that came second nature. You know, for a lot of people that have been throughuniversity and going straight into teaching, 168 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:23,000 they haven't had a rigid timetable for a couple of years, particularly in the humanities. 169 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000 You know, actually, you know, 170 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:33,000 waking up early and getting to the place on time and then having every hour of my day organised was I mean, it was amazing. 171 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:40,000 I knew exactly where I'd be at any given point of the day. And I found it really easy to sort of immerse myself in that world. 172 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And the interpersonal skills that a PhD teaches you as well. 173 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And by that, I mean the importance of asking questions. I think I said, you know, while I was researching, I was very lonely. 174 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,000 I was very isolated. But even so, 175 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:07,000 you're engaging with the text that you study and you learn very quickly the importance of asking the right question to find the answer you need. 176 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:13,000 Well, in a school, what you're doing as a teacher is asking questions constantly. 177 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Kids don't learn because you throw information into their heads. 178 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:24,000 Kids don't learn because you stand there with a syringe and inject the information through their eyeballs. 179 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,000 I mean, the day would be a lot shorter if that was true. 180 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:35,000 They learn because you're asking them the right questions and you're getting them to find answers to those questions themselves. 181 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,000 Give them the tools. Give them the scaffolding they need. But, you know, 182 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:49,000 I didn't realise quite how naturally it came to bounce questions from one person to another to encourage students to ask each other questions. 183 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:56,000 I mean, that kind of thing became second nature very quickly. But it's a skill that it takes a lot of new teachers a long time to pick up. 184 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:04,000 It feels quite. It feels quite logical to go into teaching and give information. 185 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:13,000 It feels less intuitive to provide the means to find the information and then assess whether or not that information was being found. 186 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:20,000 But as a PhD researcher, graduate student postdoc, wherever you are, that's the skill that you find comes very, 187 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,000 very naturally because you've been practising it for longer than you realise. 188 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:35,000 What else did I come across? Well, my goodness. I find in schools students need help with things that I see, again, 189 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:42,000 as a actually student had been doing for some time, writing letters of application. 190 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:52,000 So if a student is applying for, you know, a part time job or if a student more permanently is applying for a university. 191 00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:03,000 If a student wants to apply for a university that has entrance exams, I'm thinking to in particular, you can probably think of where they are. 192 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:13,000 That's a lot of pressure on these kids to do enormous research, enormous work on an application that may or may not even be successful. 193 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:18,000 And if you're sitting there as a PhD student thinking, yep, I've done a few of those. 194 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Welcome to the world of UCAS. 195 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:28,000 Again, you thought you were long past it, but if you go back to teaching, you'll be working with sixth form kids who need help applying to university. 196 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:37,000 It's more competitive now than ever. And the application process is so, so difficult in so many ways. 197 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,000 When's the last time you wrote a personal statement? Also, I'll ask these kids and they won't know what a personal statement is. 198 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,000 When's the last time you wrote an essay about how good you are? 199 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:55,000 I'll ask my students and they'll say, well, never. As a researcher, you're constantly doing that kind of thing. 200 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:06,000 You're writing emails, asking for information, your writing applications for funding, your writing applications for conferences, things like that. 201 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:13,000 You are constantly trying to justify, you know, why you deserve a shot or something. 202 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:23,000 And for these kids, that experience became valuable. I found in everything I've been to four schools now as a teacher and every school I've gone. 203 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,000 So I've become. The go to guy for my sixth formers, if they want an application read or if they want a personal statement, 204 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:36,000 make it stronger or if they want to know how to sell themselves. 205 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:42,000 It's strange in an era of social media where everyone talks about themselves constantly. 206 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:51,000 I still think being able to talk positively about one's self is a skill a lot of young people struggle to develop. 207 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000 And, you know, if you can just teach them to think more of themselves and put that into paper. 208 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Well, that's progress. And, yeah, that that's I think that's the biggest thing I got from the  PhD 209 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,000 And you'll notice I haven't mentioned anything academic, really. You know, the subject knowledge. 210 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,000 You know, if you've done it, if you want to be actually you've got some subject knowledge. 211 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Right, about that. It kind of goes without saying. 212 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:24,000 But what perhaps you don't realise you've got is the ability to make connections between different subjects, areas in teaching. 213 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:30,000 That's really important. You know, you can be teaching two different modules to the same class at the same time. 214 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,000 And if you can show them why it's important we do this where the areas connect. 215 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:43,000 If you can do creative writing, your writing to persuade, writing to convince in one module as part of the English language component, 216 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,000 then you can link that to perhaps, you know, your literature studies. 217 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000 You can talk about Pride and Prejudice and say, well, okay. 218 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,000 So when this letter is written to this character, what persuasive techniques are you detecting here? 219 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:04,000 So you're combining the creative with the analytical in ways that you know again well, you will find regardless of your specialism. 220 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:13,000 I know I'm using English examples, but regardless of your specialism, you'll find it so much easier to make Connections that engage the students. 221 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:22,000 One of the big questions every teacher fears is, is the loud kid at the back of the class saying, yeah, but why is this important? 222 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Do we really need to learn this? And my friend, if you're listening to this, you will have an answer ready, because that's what you do. 223 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,000 You give answers to that kind of question without thinking about it. 224 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:43,000 That's what you've been doing all the time you've been researching. You know what else I found, though, that I wasn't expecting? 225 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Here;s the really cool thing, I think about going into teaching. 226 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,000 It made me a better academic. I can't emphasise that enough. 227 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:01,000 I told you at the end of the PhD, I had zero publications. I'd been to one conference. 228 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,000 I didn't even know conferences were available to people like me. I thought it was just professors that went to them. 229 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:15,000 They were daunting, scary things. And I hadn't written anything anybody care to read as a teacher. 230 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:23,000 The first thing you learn, I think day one is clarity of expression is everything. 231 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,000 If you don't express yourself clearly to class. 232 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 They won't know what they're doing. And then you've wasted an hour of their time on yours. 233 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,000 If you don't explain something clearly to them, they'll go into an exam with the wrong answer. 234 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:47,000 I learnt quickly that being concise and clear were two of the most valuable skills anyone could ever develop, regardless of your job. 235 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:55,000 But in teaching, they shine. And that's not something I had ever considered really as a the actually researcher. 236 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:02,000 I've been teaching now for seven years and I've published two essays. 237 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 I've published one review. I've been to eight different conferences. 238 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,000 I've done two podcasts on academic matters. 239 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:19,000 I've started an academic blog. I've done all of these things while being a full time teacher. 240 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,000 Thank you very much, James, for taking the time to talk to me. 241 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:30,000 I felt that this was a really important conversation in terms of thinking about careers beyond a research degree, 242 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,000 because it's a classic case of what's called planned happenstance. 243 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:42,000 So where you make decisions based on a number of different contextual factors that lead you into your career path. 244 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:48,000 It's not a clear plan to become a teacher. And James's case, but he's ended up in the. 245 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Exactly the right career and the right environment for him. And I felt his passion for teaching was so palpable and evident in the conversation. 246 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:04,000 And I really valued the way that he articulated the different ways in which his skills 247 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:10,000 and experiences of doing the research degree are part of his job as a teacher. 248 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:16,000 And also the ways in which teaching in a second school environment helps him to quote him. 249 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:23,000 James himself, scratch that academic itch. And that's it for this episode. 250 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:37,716 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about that career beyond their research degree.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode PhD student Debbie Kinsey talks to Dr Caitlin McDonald, a University of Exeter alumni who now works at the Leading Edge Forum. Today Caitlin is recognised for her domain knowledge in qualitative methods like ethnography and participant-observation.    Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:21,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 My name's Dr Caitlin McDonald. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:31,000 I graduated in 2011 with a degree in Arab and Islamic studies from here at the University of Exeter at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies. 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 And hard as it is to believe that it's now nine years later. 5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,000 It's it's really interesting to look back on what's happened since that time and 6 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000 consider the skills that I took away from the university and how I'm applying them now. 7 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:53,000 So maybe to give you a bit of an update on where I am. I currently work as a digital anthropologist at an organisation called The Leading Edge Forum, 8 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,000 which does technology and strategy research for large businesses and just in the 9 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Last month I was at the UN delivering a talk at the International Labour Organisation. 10 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:11,000 I then hosted a dinner at the House of Lords about ethics. And I've done a range of interesting and exciting things since then. 11 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000 But it's really interesting to think about this particular month in particular 12 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,000 and how that the kind of culmination of where I started and how I got here. 13 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:28,000 So I started working at the Leading Edge forum about two years ago, and before that I was based at what was the Times educational supplement. 14 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 But it's no longer known as that it's just the tes 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It's no longer owned by the Times, where I was working as a digital analyst, data analyst and working with data systems quite a bit. 16 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,000 So all of that sounds really different than where I started, which was very much middle easy studies based, but really the kind of the through line. 17 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:55,000 The thread for me was that a lot of the research that I was doing when I was doing my PhD was very digital ethnography based. 18 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:06,000 So I was looking at patterns of knowledge and how they shift around the world, in particular for dancers who often for Middle Eastern dance, 19 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:15,000 want to base their practise or to base the centre at the hub of their knowledge in Cairo or sometimes in Turkey or in other kinds of regions. 20 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,000 But in my particular case, I was looking at dancers who had a dance tradition that is based out of Cairo. 21 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:26,000 And what ended up happening was I did a lot of ethnography around in particular how people were using Facebook groups, 22 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,000 but also other social media channels to spread the knowledge and in the creation of knowledge 23 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:39,000 about how the dance kind of mythology and epistemology of what the dance meant to people. 24 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:47,000 And while this doesn't sound really revolutionary now, way back in 2006, 2007, 2008, when I was first doing that, that was fairly new. 25 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,000 You know, there weren't a huge amount of digital humanities tools at the time. 26 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000 And certainly we weren't using anything like this wonderful lab that we have now. I think this was the old print print shop at the time. 27 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 So it was really interesting. But then what ended up happening is I went to do a very quantitative role, 28 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,000 which when you become an anthropologist, you don't necessarily think of yourself as a quantitative person. 29 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:14,000 Some might. I did not. But it was having that kind of digital skills component that really was able to help me make 30 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,000 the transition from a very academic role into a much more kind of commercially minded role. 31 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:27,000 And I didn't really intend to leave academia, but around the time that I was leaving, there were huge budget cuts. 32 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:35,000 So there simply weren't the kind of resources available for people to have postdocs and subsequent academic careers in particular. 33 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,000 As an immigrant to this country, I was I needed to have a role if I wanted to stay working here. 34 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000 That was not short term. So it had to be a Full-Time full contract. 35 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,000 And luckily, I was able to find something that worked out, which was with the Tes 36 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000 and they really wanted someone who could help them to an extent of their research skills. 37 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But a lot of the role was really about the kind of Day-To-Day operational knowledge to help the business run. 38 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 So that was very, very different from what I previously been doing. 39 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:07,000 But having this kind of interrogative skills, those kind of basics of a humanities research skills, 40 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,000 those basic social sciences research skills was really helpful or for doing things 41 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,000 like helping question why a particular thing was being done in a particular way. 42 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,000 In particular, I was doing a lot of kind of daily reporting of what was happening on the website and what kinds of numbers 43 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:29,000 were coming back in terms of circulation and all those kinds of things that digital businesses do. 44 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And really, the thing that was extremely useful was being able to turn around and say, hey, is anyone actually reading this report? 45 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 You know, something as simple as this ritual that we go through on a daily basis of producing these numbers. 46 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,000 How are they feeding into our decision making? 47 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:49,000 And in some senses, that questioning was perhaps not always very welcome, but it also was that helpful to create the conditions for change. 48 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,000 And I think that the social sciences are not always really great about talking about 49 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 the transferable skills outside of academia that absolutely do exist. 50 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:05,000 And I think now we're starting to see in particular with another research area that I do, which is all around ethics. 51 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 You're starting to see some of those kinds of questions emerging around. 52 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Who is in charge of this knowledge or what are the kinds of different weights that we put on how we assess particular aspects of 53 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:27,000 artificial intelligence and its relevance and its usefulness and how is it relevant to and who's benefiting and who's not benefiting? 54 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:34,000 And I think that having a general social sciences research background, regardless of whether your specialism is in ethics or in, 55 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:42,000 you know, particular aspects of digital technologies, you know, having that kind of questioning mind is is a really useful thing. 56 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:49,000 And I think that people who work in digital context are starting to appreciate those qualitative skills, 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:58,000 again, in a way that perhaps has been a little bit subsumed recently. So those kinds of questions around how is this going to benefit not only direct 58 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,000 users of our services or our products or whatever it is that we're building, 59 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000 but also that kind of contextual knowledge about how is this affecting other people who are going to be impacted by the decisions that we're making? 60 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:14,000 There is renewed curiosity and interest in those kinds of decisions. And so increasingly, organisations, 61 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,000 businesses and non-commercial organisations are looking to the humanities as well as 62 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:25,000 engineering to to make up the body of knowledge of creating those products effectively. 63 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000 So I would say now is a really good time, actually, to be in the digital humanities. 64 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000 And to some extent, no matter what you're doing, your work is always going to have a digital component. 65 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 So recognising that, you know, when you think about the degree that I did, 66 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:44,000 which was very much based in transmission of knowledge and very much about dance, 67 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,000 you wouldn't necessarily think that that would lead to where it did lead. But in other ways, it makes total sense. 68 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,000 It was a logical chain of transmission. I was looking at the social components of how that knowledge was happening. 69 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And now we are even more immersed in digital technologies. Our careers are even more immersed in this, no matter who you are. 70 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So having that background of having done that, kind of that kind of study was really useful to get me where I am now. 71 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 Yeah, it sounds really interesting. So it sounds like so 72 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 all PhDs are very specific so yours was around dance and transmission of knowledge between dances and creation of knowledge in that way. 73 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But then it sounds you talk about thinking about things, those things more broadly in terms of the general skills we develop. 74 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:32,000 And how did you find translating those things from kind of academic speak to then going into a non-academic, non-academic role? 75 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Yeah. I would say that initially it was a real challenge for me, partly because when I first was looking for a job, 76 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 I still was applying for a very academic roles, as well as starting to look beyond that. 77 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,000 So I was looking at a lot of roles in market research. I was looking at the National Centre for Social Research. 78 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,000 I was looking at ESRA U.K. you know, you go places like that and they have a more kind of traditional, I would say, research bent. 79 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Whereas if you if you move into, you know, user research and a company, for example, 80 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:10,000 and most organisations do have a user research arm if they have a digital component, even if that's not their kind of core business, 81 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,000 but that the language of that is very different from what perhaps you might be talking about 82 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 if you're coming out of the social sciences or have a real kind of pure research background. 83 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,000 So but the advantage of being an anthropologist or a sociologist or someone who 84 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,000 studies the way that people think about knowledge is that you can then apply 85 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,000 all the research skills that you have to your own situation so you can notice 86 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 the kinds of patterns of knowledge that are happening in your organisation. 87 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:41,000 You can notice the particular language that people are using around things and say, OK, you know, this group is talking about doing AB testing. 88 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 You know, I might describe that differently in my own historical research background or whatever it was. 89 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 But actually, the actual things that you need to do, the mechanics of the research are the same. 90 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,000 So simply learning the kind of patterns of the patterns of life and work in 91 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,000 the organisation that you find yourself in is a really useful skill to apply. 92 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,000 So I spent probably two or three years mostly working in a digital engineering team. 93 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:11,000 People that were doing actual software creation. And my role there was to assist with data migration that was happening. 94 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 So we essentially had a place that we'd been storing all of this hard quantitative data 95 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000 that we were collecting over the years about how that Web site that we had was being used. 96 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,000 And then we were changing everything about the underlying infrastructure and technology that we had into a completely different data storage system. 97 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,000 And my role is to make sure that as we were doing that, nothing got lost. 98 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,000 The data was collected in the same way. Nothing was missing. 99 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Nothing suddenly looked out of place. And so part of that was doing things like mapping the infrastructure from how the old data system work, 100 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 doing what's called an entity relationship diagram, and looking at what the new entity relationships would be. 101 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 So the places where the data was collected from the stored. 102 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:59,000 And as I was doing those, I was like, this is a lot like doing essentially is family tree diagrams. 103 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 You know, it's very much the same thing where you're looking at where are things transmitting from A to Z. 104 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 So you can use all those kinds of same skills. And also just the kind of. 105 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 That sense that I would get when I would go in and if I didn't know what people were 106 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,000 talking about or if I felt like there was something unspoken or something happening, 107 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,000 I didn't quite understand, I would behave exactly as though I were doing ethnography with a community, 108 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:30,000 which is to try and treat the knowledge that I was a part of as being something that was that I was studying, you know. 109 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 And so kind of having that observational hat on. 110 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,000 First of all, it really helped defuse some situations that could have otherwise been quite personally demanding. 111 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Because if you just view it as I'm learning about what's going on within this group, 112 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:47,000 then you're kind of personal sense of responsibility about that while still high because you were working there. 113 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,000 It doesn't feel quite so rooted in your own sense of identity, I suppose, 114 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000 because you can also treat it as I'm viewing this as objectively separate from myself. 115 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,000 And also then, you know, 116 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:05,000 eventually you will pick up the lingo and you will learn the skills and you will realise the patterns that are happening within your organisation. 117 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:12,000 And that's really helpful for putting the right pieces in place at the right time to achieve the things that you want to achieve in your career. 118 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like learning the language when you're there using those skills. 119 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 You already have to kind of pick up on that. Precisely. 120 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,000 Yeah. And how did you find it kind of before that stage, kind of making applications, 121 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,000 trying to write and tailor things in such a way that you're using a language you're not quite sure of yet? 122 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,000 And kind of that probably is the hardest piece. 123 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I would say, because you're not yet immersed enough in the transition that you want to make. 124 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:50,000 To really know what you need to say so that your legitimacy of knowledge in that spaces is understood. 125 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 And you also simply don't have the connections, perhaps, that you would do once you've moved into the space. 126 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:03,000 So I'd say if I were going to do anything differently, probably what I would do is, you know, 127 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,000 and especially for students who are listening to this now that are maybe in their first or second year, 128 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 I would have spent a little bit more time thinking about how am I going to make the 129 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,000 kinds of connections I want to make to understand the spaces that are available to me, 130 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,000 like what are the options that are out there? And, B, 131 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:29,000 make the Connections to really form the right network so that at the right time I have the right information about what roles are available and 132 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:38,000 potentially who can introduce me to the right kind of person to to know about a job that's that's out there and the right kinds of skills. 133 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So because skills do change in terms of need, employer need, and what they're looking for will change over time. 134 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:51,000 So having an idea of how that space is shifting will allow you to see not only what's on the on the market right now or what's needed in the market, 135 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000 but you can get an understanding of what's going to be needed by the time I leave, 136 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 because you can kind of observe the trends that are happening and say, OK. 137 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:07,000 So if I put some resources into, for example, learning how to do network mapping or doing a bit more on the kind of digital skill side, 138 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:14,000 then I'll be more valuable than if I'm spending time doing something else. Which isn't to say, of course, that you shouldn't focus on your degree. 139 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I mean, you know, it's such a kind of you have to get over that hurdle more than anything else. 140 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Right? That is the thing to get through. But I'd say a really crucial skill is networking. 141 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,000 And I know that everyone always says that. And people find it can find it very overwhelming. 142 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:39,000 But I think the thing to remember is networking is a skill that allows you to understand 143 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,000 some knowledge that's out there in the world that you don't yet have in an informal way. 144 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 So if you view it in that sense, then it can be less overwhelming. 145 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,000 And I found as well, once I started learning to have an objective when I went to a networking event. 146 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:03,000 So I go to a lot of digital skills, meet ups in London, or I try and attend a lot of webinars or whatever it is I'm trying to learn about. 147 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,000 I look for places where I can find that information and in particular I potentially can 148 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,000 share some information as well because people are always willing to engage with you. 149 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 First of all, if you're interested in them and ask them questions, everyone loves talking about themselves. 150 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000 This is like the crucial skill of good networking is if you can get someone, if you can express interest in them. 151 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,000 People are usually very willing to tell you more about what they're doing, 152 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 but also people are usually have some kind of a need that if you can fulfil that need in some way, 153 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:39,000 like having a slightly adjacent skill or a different skill that they're looking for, then they'll want to talk to you as well. 154 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:47,000 So so building that skill of saying, OK, there is a big data meetup on Wednesday, I'm going to go and 155 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,000 My goal is to find out either a little bit more about this particular topic or to meet someone that works in this 156 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:00,000 business or to find someone that has this job title and just speak to them a little bit about whatever my objective is. 157 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000 Having that focus can really, really make it much easier because you feel less overwhelmed by the idea of networking in general. 158 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:16,000 That can. Huge kind of topic and kind of focussing it on something smaller to achieve can make can make life just a little bit less overwhelming. 159 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think a lot people do get it. Oh, you've got to network. 160 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But then what does that really mean? What does it look like in practise. They kind of. 161 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,000 Yeah. So to get tip of going to something with an objective and kind of having a little bit of reciprocity in that, 162 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:36,000 like maybe there's two things you can offer as well as getting people to talk about themselves. 163 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Yeah. And honestly, the other thing that I would say, which is a really good tip, is even if you're fairly early in your career, 164 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,000 especially if you're looking at a non-academic role, getting up there and being a speaker. 165 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:54,000 So, you know, it gives it gives you a chance to showcase what you're doing or the kinds of knowledge and skills that you have. 166 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000 But it also gives people an excuse to talk to you at a networking event. 167 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 And even if you're an introvert, actually, as scary as it could be to go on stage, 168 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:08,000 giving a talk is a really excellent way of putting the burden on others to come and talk to you so you don't have 169 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,000 to feel like you're trying to muscle your way into someone else or to identify a friendly face in the crowd, 170 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 because everyone knows that you're so and so talked about the thing and then they might want to come ask you questions. 171 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:23,000 So it's a really great way of, you know, it's essentially you saying I'm here, I can talk about this. 172 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,000 And I'd say the real value is that in the personal connections, the one on one connections that you make after you've given the talk. 173 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,000 So even a short you know, in particular, when I think about the technology team, 174 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:40,000 which is mostly what I work in, there are tons of events, in particular London, where I live. 175 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,000 You could probably go to multiple. You'd have your choice of events to go to every evening. 176 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And typically they're very short form talks, two to three minutes about a subject of interest. 177 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,000 So there's usually lots of opportunities to get in and kind of on the ground floor of the ladder of speaking, as it were. 178 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:02,000 If you're in a place that has less accessible resources in that way, there are definitely a lot of online resources. 179 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000 And in particular, I think now that there is so much fear about physically being lots of people together, 180 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000 lots of the kinds of events that I would typically have gone to are going to be thinking about moving online more and more. 181 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And the way that we develop essentially digital etiquette. 182 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:24,000 So, you know, how people develop those kinds of informal connections is going to become increasingly important. 183 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:30,000 You know, it's relatively easy to put together a podcast or a webinar that is one way broadcast content, 184 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,000 but creating those connections that those networking events are really valuable for. 185 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,000 There are very few ways that people are good at that right now. But I think increasingly that's a thing that people will get good at. 186 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 So I'd say look for opportunities in that space where you can not only watch a piece of content, 187 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,000 but also in some way contribute to an ongoing dialogue and meet people through that kind of a mechanism. 188 00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:02,000 I'm trying to think of other examples of good kind of asynchronous or at a distance ways that people can learn and connect with one another. 189 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000 I subscribe to a lot of newsletters about such just some interest to me professionally as well. 190 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Usually reaching out to someone and saying, I read this thing or I have a question about whatever it is, 191 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,000 you won't always have a hundred percent success so that people will get a lot of demands on their time, 192 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 particularly as they get more skilled or experienced in their space. 193 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,000 But often people are again willing to talk about something or willing to connect with you, 194 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,000 you know, to answer a question or to be involved or engaged in something. 195 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,000 People are typically very generous with their time, you know, especially if you're only asking for 10 minutes or, you know, 196 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,000 whatever it is, a small or small chunk of time is usually a good way to go in, particularly if you can be specific about your ask. 197 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:49,000 That really helps people to engage with you quickly is instead of being like, hey, I read your thing, will you be my mentor? 198 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,000 That's that's often too open ended. But if you say I read your thing, it was interesting. 199 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Specifically, I have a question about blah. You can often then open a dialogue in that way. 200 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Yeah. So it kind of being specific and kind of very much time limited when you're asking of people. 201 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:11,000 And yeah. And it's really interesting to think about kind of non sort of Face-To-Face in person ways you can do networking. 202 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,000 I think a lot of people think of networking as you got to go to this event and a lot 203 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,000 of PGRs are part time or they have caring responsibilities and they just think, 204 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,000 oh, I just can't do that. Actually, there are all these other ways that you can get involved. 205 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Yeah. And like I say, I think that those kind of online and asynchronous abilities are where the necessity for those 206 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:34,000 is going to become increasing over the next few months and probably years after that as well. 207 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,000 You know, because businesses have long been looking for ways to encourage less business travel, for example. 208 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,000 And it's always, oh, it's too hard. There's no way to do this. It's impossible. 209 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:49,000 And one of my current research areas is how digital technologies are actually changing the physical spaces that people work. 210 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And so right now is a real kind of fascinating live experiment for me to watch the way the businesses are responding to the current pandemic crisis. 211 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,000 And I think that that really will change a lot of the things that we're thinking about. 212 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 In particular, you look at things like slack channels for technology. 213 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Conferences have always been very popular, but. 214 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,000 It's going from that being a kind of adjacent thing to the event, to being that is the event. 215 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,000 You know, video conferencing again. It's not like that's a new technology, 216 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:24,000 but the way that people get comfortable with using those things in particular in large groups is going to be really interesting. 217 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:31,000 I think how people understand the visual and audio cues that they're getting on multiple person calls is going 218 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:37,000 to be interesting because you often have these kind of slightly weird signals where if you were in person. 219 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,000 So, of course, you know, we're probably sitting about four or five feet apart as we're recording this podcast. 220 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 And that has a particular kind of etiquette about the way that we do distancing 221 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,000 But if you're in a video conferencing situation, people often have the camera at a slightly weird distance. 222 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,000 So you either feel like you're too close or you're too far away. 223 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,000 And that gives different cues to how you perceive that interaction, where they have the microphone to close it. 224 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 It's like they're breathing on you. I don't know if you've had that experience. I'm sure everyone has. 225 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 And it's that really sets up a very different kind of interaction. 226 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 And I think that as these technologies become ever more ubiquitous, 227 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000 people are going to have to be getting better at understanding what those implications 228 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,000 are of sound and eyesight and what that means for people's comfort level of distancing. 229 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 So that for me, is very fascinating subject right now. Yeah, yeah. There's so much to explore. 230 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000 And it's going to be interesting how it develops like over the next couple of months especially. 231 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:35,000 Definitely. And you mentioned that he thought networking would be particularly with people in the early 232 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,000 stage of their PhD just in terms of finding out about what different entities are doing, 233 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000 how things are moving and trends, 234 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:48,000 and then they can use that to think about what skills do I need to pick up and develop and see if someone was interested 235 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:55,000 in doing the kind of work that you do like as a digital anthropologist and all the various things that that's include 236 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,000 What kinds of experiences would be useful for people to try and pick up alongside or as part of the PhD 237 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000 I think one of the it's important to focus on one of the reasons that I think it's important 238 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,000 to do this early in your academic career is because when you are working in academia, 239 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,000 unless you are doing something part time or you have prior experience outside of academia, 240 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,000 the people who are teaching you so often don't have the experience of working outside of academia. 241 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 So they are simply not in a very good position to advise you about if you want to explore non-academic options. 242 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,000 What that transition looks like, what kinds of skills are being looked for. 243 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,000 They can't really advise you on the kind of non-academic lingo unless they themselves are also doing some of this stuff. 244 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 This is all, of course, very context dependent. 245 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,000 You have some departments who are very different or you have university support services which can help you. 246 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:46,000 But in general, my experience when I was a PhD student was that of many others that I spoke to was that they simply weren't 247 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:55,000 able to bridge that gap into the commercial realm because they didn't have the right advice at the time. 248 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,000 And being an anthropologist and someone who does a lot of ethnography 249 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,000 I always think that the best way of learning about something is going to immerse yourself in that thing and then experiencing it for yourself. 250 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:12,000 So finding an internship or some kind of work experience, I know it's less common for older people to be doing those. 251 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:20,000 But you can usually find something. And there are often places that will offer short work placements even to postgraduate students, 252 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,000 although it is you know, sometimes they're not quite very well set up for that. But, you know, there are definitely places that are doing it, 253 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000 especially if they're interested either in your area of research or the kinds of creative skills that 254 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,000 you can bring to the situation that you're looking at and doing those fairly early on in your career. 255 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Gives you an opportunity to understand more about yourself, what you like and what you don't like instead of waiting until the end and thinking, hey, 256 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 I'm just going to sit out in the wide world and having this wonderful badge of my degree is going to 257 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:55,000 tell people something about who I am and the kind of skills I have often in a commercial setting. 258 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:03,000 You know, you might recognise the value of a PhD, but you won't understand how that applies to your business. 259 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,000 So particular for early people who are just out of the PhD 260 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:16,000 It's a hard sell because in essence, from an employer perspective, they're seeing it was just a regular graduate who is a little bit more expensive. 261 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 And that can be challenging to overcome that. 262 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,000 You know, I'd say after your first job or first couple of jobs, when you move it to either a more managerial role or more strategic looking role, 263 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000 then people begin to value your active experience more than they did when you were first out of the gate. 264 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,000 So that's really tough because that's kind of the biggest hurdle is is getting into your first job. 265 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:46,000 It's a very much kind of a catch 22 situation. But coming in from your your postgraduate experience, having had some commercial experience as well, 266 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:52,000 puts you in a much stronger position than to be looking at a commercial role because people can 267 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,000 people make assumptions about your commercial experience when they're reviewing your CV or your, 268 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,000 you know, as you're being in your hiring process than they will about someone who's just coming with no experience. 269 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,000 That's obvious to them. Yeah. So it sounds like it's really important. 270 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000 First, few roles to really think to really keep in mind that someone else won't know, understand what a PhD is. 271 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Also all the skills involved. So you really have to work at both getting other experiences, 272 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000 maybe then also how you kind of market those things, I guess what those skills mean from your PhD. 273 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000 It's not just I did this degree and there's nothing about it that makes sense. 274 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it's worth remembering that in a commercial setting, the word research can mean very different things. 275 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:47,000 So I'm doing some doing a little bit of research on what is the commercial we're looking for and what do those kinds of roles do. 276 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:55,000 And if I'm if I'm right. Gosh, the PGR resource that I'm forgetting the name of. 277 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000 But it's like277 00:25:55,000 -->276 00:25:47,000 -->275 00:25:39,000 -->274 00:25:31,000 -->273 00:25:27,000 -->272 00:25:21,000 -->271 00:25:16,000 -->270 00:25:08,000 -->269 00:25:03,000 -->268 00:24:57,000 -->267 00:24:52,000 -->266 00:24:46,000 -->265 00:24:37,000 -->264 00:24:33,000 -->263 00:24:27,000 -->262 00:24:18,000 -->261 00:24:16,000 -->260 00:24:09,000 -->259 00:24:03,000 -->258 00:23:55,000 -->257 00:23:48,000 -->256 00:23:42,000 -->255 00:23:35,000 -->254 00:23:29,000 -->253 00:23:26,000 -->252 00:23:20,000 -->251 00:23:12,000 -->250 00:23:05,000 -->249 00:22:59,000 -->248 00:22:55,000 -->247 00:22:46,000 -->246 00:22:39,000 -->245 00:22:35,000 -->244 00:22:33,000 -->243 00:22:28,000 -->242 00:22:25,000 -->241 00:22:19,000 -->240 00:22:14,000 -->239 00:22:09,000 -->238 00:22:05,000 -->237 00:22:01,000 -->236 00:21:55,000 -->235 00:21:48,000 -->234 00:21:42,000 -->233 00:21:41,000 -->232 00:21:35,000 -->231 00:21:29,000 -->230 00:21:25,000 -->229 00:21:21,000 -->228 00:21:17,000 -->227 00:21:13,000 -->226 00:21:09,000 -->225 00:21:05,000 -->224 00:21:01,000 -->223 00:20:55,000 -->222 00:20:52,000 -->221 00:20:47,000 -->220 00:20:42,000 -->219 00:20:37,000 -->218 00:20:31,000 -->217 00:20:24,000 -->216 00:20:17,000 -->215 00:20:14,000 -->214 00:20:09,000 -->213 00:20:05,000 -->212 00:20:00,000 -->211 00:19:57,000 -->210 00:19:49,000 -->209 00:19:43,000 -->208 00:19:39,000 -->207 00:19:34,000 -->206 00:19:28,000 -->205 00:19:23,000 -->204 00:19:18,000 -->203 00:19:15,000 -->202 00:19:11,000 -->201 00:19:05,000 -->200 00:18:57,000 -->199 00:18:53,000 -->198 00:18:49,000 -->197 00:18:41,000 -->196 00:18:34,000 -->195 00:18:29,000 -->194 00:18:24,000 -->193 00:18:19,000 -->192 00:18:16,000 -->191 00:18:12,000 -->190 00:18:06,000 -->189 00:18:02,000 -->188 00:17:52,000 -->187 00:17:46,000 -->186 00:17:40,000 -->185 00:17:35,000 -->184 00:17:30,000 -->183 00:17:24,000 -->182 00:17:16,000 -->181 00:17:14,000 -->180 00:17:08,000 -->179 00:17:02,000 -->178 00:16:55,000 -->177 00:16:49,000 -->176 00:16:44,000 -->175 00:16:40,000 -->174 00:16:34,000 -->173 00:16:29,000 -->172 00:16:23,000 -->171 00:16:17,000 -->170 00:16:12,000 -->169 00:16:08,000 -->168 00:16:01,000 -->167 00:15:57,000 -->166 00:15:54,000 -->165 00:15:47,000 -->164 00:15:42,000 -->163 00:15:36,000 -->162 00:15:31,000 -->161 00:15:24,000 -->160 00:15:20,000 -->159 00:15:16,000 -->158 00:15:08,000 -->157 00:15:00,000 -->156 00:14:52,000 -->155 00:14:47,000 -->154 00:14:39,000 -->153 00:14:33,000 -->152 00:14:27,000 -->151 00:14:23,000 -->150 00:14:18,000 -->149 00:14:14,000 -->148 00:14:08,000 -->147 00:14:03,000 -->146 00:13:53,000 -->145 00:13:48,000 -->144 00:13:44,000 -->143 00:13:39,000 -->142 00:13:32,000 -->141 00:13:26,000 -->140 00:13:19,000 -->139 00:13:14,000 -->138 00:13:07,000 -->137 00:12:59,000 -->136 00:12:56,000 -->135 00:12:51,000 -->134 00:12:44,000 -->133 00:12:38,000 -->132 00:12:29,000 -->131 00:12:19,000 -->130 00:12:17,000 -->129 00:12:13,000 -->128 00:12:08,000 -->127 00:12:03,000 -->126 00:11:54,000 -->125 00:11:50,000 -->124 00:11:41,000 -->123 00:11:36,000 -->122 00:11:32,000 -->121 00:11:27,000 -->120 00:11:22,000 -->119 00:11:18,000 -->118 00:11:12,000 -->117 00:11:05,000 -->116 00:10:59,000 -->115 00:10:57,000 -->114 00:10:52,000 -->113 00:10:47,000 -->112 00:10:41,000 -->111 00:10:37,000 -->110 00:10:33,000 -->109 00:10:30,000 -->108 00:10:23,000 -->107 00:10:17,000 -->106 00:10:12,000 -->105 00:10:09,000 -->104 00:10:04,000 -->103 00:09:59,000 -->102 00:09:52,000 -->101 00:09:49,000 -->100 00:09:44,000 -->99 00:09:35,000 -->98 00:09:31,000 -->97 00:09:26,000 -->96 00:09:20,000 -->95 00:09:16,000 -->94 00:09:11,000 -->93 00:09:03,000 -->92 00:08:58,000 -->91 00:08:55,000 -->90 00:08:50,000 -->89 00:08:46,000 -->88 00:08:41,000 -->87 00:08:34,000 -->86 00:08:31,000 -->85 00:08:26,000 -->84 00:08:22,000 -->83 00:08:18,000 -->82 00:08:14,000 -->81 00:08:10,000 -->80 00:08:03,000 -->79 00:07:56,000 -->78 00:07:48,000 -->77 00:07:44,000 -->76 00:07:40,000 -->75 00:07:32,000 -->74 00:07:24,000 -->73 00:07:17,000 -->72 00:07:11,000 -->71 00:07:06,000 -->70 00:07:00,000 -->69 00:06:54,000 -->68 00:06:48,000 -->67 00:06:44,000 -->66 00:06:38,000 -->65 00:06:35,000 -->64 00:06:30,000 -->63 00:06:25,000 -->62 00:06:19,000 -->61 00:06:14,000 -->60 00:06:08,000 -->59 00:06:01,000 -->58 00:05:58,000 -->57 00:05:49,000 -->56 00:05:42,000 -->55 00:05:34,000 -->54 00:05:27,000 -->53 00:05:19,000 -->52 00:05:09,000 -->51 00:05:05,000 -->50 00:04:59,000 -->49 00:04:54,000 -->48 00:04:49,000 -->47 00:04:42,000 -->46 00:04:40,000 -->45 00:04:35,000 -->44 00:04:29,000 -->43 00:04:22,000 -->42 00:04:17,000 -->41 00:04:11,000 -->40 00:04:07,000 -->39 00:04:01,000 -->38 00:03:58,000 -->37 00:03:53,000 -->36 00:03:49,000 -->35 00:03:46,000 -->34 00:03:40,000 -->33 00:03:35,000 -->32 00:03:27,000 -->31 00:03:20,000 -->30 00:03:14,000 -->29 00:03:08,000 -->28 00:03:04,000 -->27 00:02:59,000 -->26 00:02:52,000 -->25 00:02:47,000 -->24 00:02:39,000 -->23 00:02:32,000 -->22 00:02:26,000 -->21 00:02:19,000 -->20 00:02:15,000 -->19 00:02:06,000 -->18 00:01:55,000 -->17 00:01:49,000 -->16 00:01:43,000 -->15 00:01:30,000 -->14 00:01:28,000 -->13 00:01:20,000 -->12 00:01:15,000 -->11 00:01:11,000 -->10 00:01:04,000 -->9 00:00:59,000 -->8 00:00:53,000 -->7 00:00:45,000 -->6 00:00:39,000 -->5 00:00:36,000 -->4 00:00:31,000 -->3 00:00:22,000 -->2 00:00:21,000 -->1 00:00:10,000 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode PhD student Debbie Kinsey talks to Gemma Edney, a University of Exeter alumni. An experienced project manager and events manager, Gemma now works at St George's, The University of London.    Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College 2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:27,000 So I'm Gemma. I did my PhD in film studies finished last April. 3 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:37,000 So April 2019 was when I was awarded. I submitted the September before that, so I sort of stopped the actual physical researching and writing 24/7. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:46,000 In September 2018, immediately after submitting, I got a job at the student information desk. 5 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Here I am organising graduation. Which sounds more stressful the more I think about it. 6 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,000 But I actually think organising graduation is actually quite stressful. 7 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,000 But so I did that. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:10,000 So I did that immediately after submitting completed my corrections while I was doing that, and then continued doing that for a little bit. 9 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I was looking for jobs here and there. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 The plan originally was academic jobs, so I was looking for those. 11 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:27,000 There weren't very many. So and the more I looked at, to be honest, the less I wanted any of the jobs that did come up looking. 12 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So then in October last year, I decided to apply to the civil service fast stream scheme. 13 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And finally, it's the longest application process ever. But finally, I found out in February that I've been successful. 14 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:50,000 So I'll be starting there in September, which is about the change of direction, but is, I think, a good move for me. 15 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,000 So, yeah, that's kind of where I am in my journey at the moment. 16 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Yeah. So you were initially you working kind of in university, you know, you said. 17 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Well, yeah, initially looking for research type jobs but now decided to move outside. 18 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Yes. Yeah. So I worked throughout my PhD anyway, um, 19 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:19,000 part time at the university and then that's sort of how I ended up with the job that I ended up with once I had submitted. 20 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I wasn't in a position I could once I'd finished, just do sort of a seminar here and there or like one or two seminars a week. 21 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I needed an actual job full, full time hours. I did. 22 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Originally, I was offered teaching in the year that I, I submitted, but it was only one seminar a week. 23 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:44,000 And so I had to say no because I needed more than just one seminar a week and I 24 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,000 wasn't able to take a full time job and also do a seminar a week because funnily enough, 25 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000 the university don't like to employ people or more than a full time contract. So. 26 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,000 So I wasn't able to do that, which was a shame, because I do really I do miss teaching is one of the things I really miss. 27 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 But I carried on looking. I was constantly looking for jobs. 28 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,000 I was never under the impression that I was gonna do graduation organisation forever. 29 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,000 That's not something that I thought was on my future plan, really. 30 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:22,000 So I did carry on looking for jobs. But the more I looked to be honest, the more it's they were all fixed term. 31 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:30,000 They were all part time. Some of them were fixed term and part-time. And it just wasn't something that I wanted. 32 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:41,000 After doing four years of PhD, I was ready to just actually know where I was going and where I was gonna be and have a bit more stability. 33 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 And it was just one of those things that gradually I came to the realisation that actually, 34 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,000 although I would have loved to stay in academia, it wasn't the top of my priority anymore. 35 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,000 And I think that's okay. I think that's fine to have come to that realisation. 36 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,000 It took me a while to come to that to come to that realisation. 37 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000 But yeah, it's not something that I have no regrets about stopping looking for academic jobs. 38 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,000 There was a point where I just anything came up I went, I didn't want that job. 39 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:15,000 I just looking at the looking at the job description and looking out the work involved and things, that's not I don't think I want it. 40 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:21,000 And when that just kept happening, I thought, yeah. I didn't want any of these jobs. 41 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 So I started looking outside. And to begin with, I was a bit sort of I felt a bit lost in the. 42 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,000 I had been aiming at this for so long and done this one path. 43 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:38,000 And then I thought, OK, what am I going to do now? What do I even do? 44 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:44,000 And so I look for things sort of within universities and I'm sort of more student support kind of roles and things. 45 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 But again, there was just nothing that really struck me. I got there were a couple of jobs. 46 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I went for that I think I would have really enjoyed it, but I came second for all of them. 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Which was lovely that they told me that. And also awful that they told me that because I'd have rather come last and just been told, no, it's not so. 48 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,000 But then I sort of thought, well, maybe I don't need to work at a University at all. 49 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,000 Maybe all other things. And I actually started looking more at graduate schemes and thinking more. 50 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Is there anything that also like PhD I'm still a graduate. 51 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,000 II can still apply. And there are various things there. 52 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,000 And there are various schemes that actually sort of market themselves. 53 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:36,000 at PhD graduates, as well as other graduates of other levels as well. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 And so I started sort of looking at much more widely than I had been before. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And I actually heard about the civil service scheme on a train. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Just people behind me were talking and I was really nice. So they were sort of just talking about their current roles and everything. 57 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000 And I was thinking, oh, like sounds interesting. Like what the scheme that they're on. 58 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:05,000 And I had a look at it. And it's actually designed not just for fresh undergraduates that are leaving university 59 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:11,000 but for a career changes and people are all different stages of their careers. 60 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,000 And I quite liked that. 61 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:21,000 It specifically says we are not just a graduate scheme and we're not just for 20 and 21 year olds that have just finished their degrees and things. 62 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,000 So I sort of looked into it and to be honest, just that and an application on the off chance. 63 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And then, I mean, it's a very long process. So the longer I went into it, the more I said I actually really want this 64 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,000 I want I want a place. 65 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:41,000 And so, yeah, it was as soon as I sort of got more more involved in the process and through the application, the more I thought, yeah. 66 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,000 I think this is a really good move for me, 67 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:52,000 something that I think I can apply myself to and having a bit more experience beyond sort of having through my page. 68 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:59,000 The experience I've got and through working elsewhere as well, I think we'll actually be really beneficial. 69 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So, yeah, there are absolutely no regrets on the journey I've taken to get to this point. 70 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,000 But it just took me a little bit of time to come to come to the realisation of what I sort of wanted and needed. 71 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,000 To be honest, this is for my own personal wellbeing. 72 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000 I think this is a really good decision. And ever since I've sort of had the plan of life. 73 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:27,000 Now I know that I'm going somewhere else. I'm going off in this direction. Sort of felt almost lighter. 74 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Yeah, this is great. I haven't felt that for a while. So that's where. 75 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Good. This kind of thing where it's important to think that not just the things you enjoy, that you really enjoy teaching. 76 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:46,000 So what kind of life you want. Yeah. And a lot of the academic opportunities and I like them around you and finding just didn't fit with the kind of life. 77 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm like, I think there are people that can say, yeah, 78 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:00,000 I'm happy to go through a few years of temporary contracts in the hope that I can then go on to a permanent one eventually. 79 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 And that's great. And that is originally what I thought I would have to do. 80 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,000 But the more I thought about it, the just the more I think I don't I don't want to have to. 81 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:16,000 As soon as I go into a job, I start looking for another one, because that's pretty much all I have done. 82 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,000 So throughout my PhD, I was on sort of temporary contracts anyway, 83 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,000 which didn't matter because they were part time and I was always, always able to get another one. 84 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:32,000 But then I was immediately looking for jobs as soon as I had finished and then immediately looking for other jobs. 85 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Once I got the one I was in and I was just done with the job search. 86 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,000 If I'm honest, there's only so many applications I can start and then maybe fill out. 87 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000 And then the competition obviously is always so high. 88 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:57,000 So just for my own for my own sake, I thought it's okay to have priorities the on going into a research job or an academic job. 89 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,000 I still I've still continued to do some research when I have the time. 90 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,000 I mean, having a full time job makes that less likely. But I've got an article coming out soon in a journal and things like that. 91 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:15,000 I still really like my research. I haven't completely fallen out of love with everything I've done, but it's much more. 92 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,000 I can do it on my own terms. There's no pressure or I can do what I want when I want. 93 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:28,000 If someone likes it, they'll publish it. Great. But there's no sort of expectation that I have to get so many publications out. 94 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000 I have to get this experience in order to get this job. I might only have for six months. 95 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,000 And that's having that knowledge as much. 96 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,000 It's just so much calmer in my life. Yeah. 97 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,000 And it sounds like looking at said you were feeling a bit lost when you made that decision. 98 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Like when. Sure. Went to. Yeah. Graduate schemes. Kind of gave you that structure to that. 99 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,000 It did. Yeah. It was never it was never something I had even considered at all. 100 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000 I thought, no, I'll stay if I do. I'll keep looking for academic jobs. 101 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 And if I don't get an academic job, I'll still look in sort of student support 102 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 And it was only when I thought, why, why do I have this weird thing that I have to stay? 103 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Within a university, maybe I don't have to work at a university. It was only then. 104 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:22,000 And obviously there are so many jobs and you have to try and structure it somehow. 105 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,000 Then I sort of thought, well, maybe let's look at the schemes out there. 106 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,000 And there are, as I said, there are some that do actually market themselves as PhD level. 107 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:40,000 And they say that they'll give you like a salary increase if you've got a PhD over a bachelors or a masters, so that there are schemes out there. 108 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And I was when I discovered that, then I thought, oh, okay, well, maybe I can look at some of these. 109 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:51,000 I mean, investment banking isn't what I'm actually interested in. So I didn't apply for quite a lot of them. 110 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000 But there are still schemes out there that value these. 111 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,000 There are there's more resources, I think, for science PhDs than there are for humanities PhDs 112 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 In terms of moving into industry or moving outside of universities. 113 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:11,000 But there are schemes out there and there are there are people that have made the move, too. 114 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:18,000 So, yeah, I think discovering that was was really good as a way of at least starting to structure my search. 115 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,000 And then I had just a lucky train journey. So what was the process like? 116 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000 You said it was quite an involved process. Yeah. So it's a really involved process. 117 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:36,000 So I sent the initial application in in October and then I had to go through two rounds of online tests, 118 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 which are so it's not really verbal reasoning or anything, which is why I expected it to be. 119 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:48,000 It's kind of they give you a scenario and you have to say which decision is more more valid or you have to sort of say what you would do, 120 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 that kind of thing. And then if you pass that, there's a video interview, 121 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,000 which is one of the strange experiences I've ever had because there wasn't a person on the other end. 122 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:04,000 It's just a pre-recorded question, which then you have certain time to answer the question in and then off your recording goes. 123 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:12,000 So I was sitting in my kitchen sort of looking at my wall, trying to answer, trying to answer questions was a very strange experience. 124 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:20,000 But I did that. And then after that, there's an assessment centre where you actually meet people for the first time 125 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000 and you're with lots of other people that are also applying to the scheme. 126 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:32,000 You go through various tasks. And and then after that, I waited for 10 weeks and then eventually found out the outcome because they have so 127 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,000 many people that they have to they have to set marks for each of the different schemes, 128 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:43,000 because within the within the whole fast stream scheme, there are fifteen individual streams that you apply for. 129 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:49,000 So they have to sort of set pass marks and gradually narrow the bands and until they have the right number and things like that. 130 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:57,000 So it takes a long time, but it was thankfully worth worth it in the. 131 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:04,000 It has been it was a long process. But Handily, I found out that it was two days after my birthday, which was nice. 132 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,000 And also the day before I had an interview for another job, which is fixed term until August. 133 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:16,000 So that's just doing is doing graduation at another university in London. 134 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:22,000 So that was it was quite. I applied just because it was it's more money than I was. 135 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:30,000 I'm on at the moment. And I thought, well, why not? And then but I probably wouldn't have taken it because it's only fixed term until August. 136 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Without the guarantee that I'll have somewhere to go afterwards. 137 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:42,000 But I then yeah, the next day I had the interview and I said, yes, I would take this role if asked, because I've got time, I've got somewhere to go. 138 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And so I say things kind of all fell into place, 139 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:52,000 which was nice because before that things hadn't really felt like they were falling into place at all. 140 00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:02,000 But yes. So that kind of brought my leaving Exeter forward by quite a large, large amount of time, which I will obviously be sad to do 141 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:09,000 I've been here for a really long time. But yeah, I think it's a good move for me to sort of just go. 142 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,000 And for once, it's kind of I'm just putting myself first completely as a completely selfish decision that 143 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000 I'm just gonna leave and do something else for five months and then go and do something else. 144 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:28,000 So it's yeah, it's good for me to have a bit of change of scenery and and work out work out what I'm good at again. 145 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Yeah. Did you find, say, during the process of applying anything, you applied things from your so p h d time. 146 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,000 Yes. Anything learnt skills or how did you sort of transfer this sort of university academic speak I guess. 147 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Yeah. Different industries. So I mean I think being able to write well is something that I don't think you can 148 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:01,000 under estimate writing applications and being able to talk about your experience from 149 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 when you go to conferences and people say also you also tell me about you tell me 150 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 about your research and you have to suddenly think of something that you hadn't. 151 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Considered and this really High-Powered person is asking you about you and you think you need to make yourself sound intelligent. 152 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:22,000 That's really good for interview. So I'm sort of thinking on your feet about examples of things you've done is really helpful. 153 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:28,000 The most helpful thing, though, I think, is just the general project management of doing a PhD. 154 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000 A PhD is a project and it goes on for a really long time. 155 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:40,000 And you have to manage your time. You have to manage the individual tasks that make up the whole and knowing how to do that. 156 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:49,000 And just that process is so helpful not just for applying and telling people that you're good at project management, but also for in the workplace. 157 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,000 I would not be able to organise graduation without any kind of experience of project management. 158 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:04,000 So it's things like that that I think people don't realise that you're not just go to writing articles and researching a very niche topic. 159 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,000 You're also good at thinking more widely and planning really far ahead. 160 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Projects go on. These projects go on for years and you know where you are at any given time and can sort of even if not to other people, to yourself. 161 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,000 You can always, you know, 162 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:28,000 roughly when you think you might be finished and sort of you might tell you might tell people that it's a slightly different time. 163 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,000 I know I did that. I think I would give a date and then in my head, maybe not that day. 164 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000 But that ability is just so helpful and is an example. 165 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:47,000 that I give in interviews all the time. When people say, oh, tell me about how you manage your workload. 166 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Okay, let me tell you a story. Let me tell you all about my PhD 167 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,000 So that is by far the thing I apply the most. 168 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:04,000 And just in general, I think having a bit more experience of communicating with people, of having interviews, 169 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,000 of applying for things, applying for grants or sort of travel scholarships, things like that. 170 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:23,000 And just a bit more experience of how that process works in writing about the benefits of certain of certain ventures and just in general helps. 171 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 I spoke to some people at the assessment centre for the Civil Service. 172 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,000 And I mean, I was very flattered because to begin with, they said, what are you studying? I thought, oh, nice. 173 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:39,000 And they said, you know, they'd found the interview really difficult because they weren't sure what to say. 174 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,000 They didn't have any concrete examples for things and they weren't sure what to 175 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,000 expect when in a one to one situation with an interview or anything like that. 176 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:53,000 But as a student, you have one to one situations all the time with your supervisor. 177 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 And I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but my supervisor used to ask me questions. 178 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:04,000 I did not know the answers so that I had never I hadn't considered before then. 179 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,000 And actually that was a real benefit that I had had that experience. I am quite good now at thinking on my feet. 180 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:17,000 When someone asked me a question, I don't know the answer. But that's not something that everybody has. 181 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:25,000 So it's it's those little things that actually can help in terms of applications and talking to people and communicating, 182 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,000 which I don't think you think about very often when you're doing a PhD 183 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:34,000 It's kind of thinking about these sort of general skill terms think about it Like what you're doing is actually project management. 184 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Yeah. Not just working on a PhD. It's this way. Yeah, exactly. 185 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Like, really useful generalisable skills. I think sometimes when people say if they I know that when I spoke to family 186 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,000 who didn't know what a PhD was and I found it really hard to explain to them. 187 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And it's only sort of since finishing that I go it's a really big project and it 188 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,000 takes three to four years and you have to plan each individual task and they go, 189 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:09,000 oh, okay. But sort of while I was doing my PhD, I'd say, oh, it's like a big essay like that doesn't cover it at all. 190 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,000 And, you know, trying to explain that, I'm sitting at my computer reading books and writing and people. 191 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Okay, I don't really understand what that is and how that counts as work. Yeah. 192 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:28,000 So it is only sort of since finishing I have been able to explain my PhD in terms that aren't just academic. 193 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:38,000 So kind of finding something to be useful if people thought about how to articulate what the individual which is generally just what is a PhD 194 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,000 Yes. Is what it is. Exactly. And I think I don't think there's enough out there. 195 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,000 I don't think people focus on these transferable skills much. 196 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,000 There's a lot of emphasis on transferable skills, undergraduate level, 197 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,000 because the range of subjects that people do, as I've asked, but I think there is a PhD level, 198 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:06,000 there's less of an emphasis on it because there's an expectation that you'll go on to continue researching, even though so many people don't. 199 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:13,000 That was another thing I felt when I. Was first coming to the realisation that I didn't think I wanted to stay in academia. 200 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,000 And I was thinking, well, does this make me a failure? Am I now a failed academic? Is that what I'm going to be called? 201 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:25,000 No. It was only when realising actually how many people I knew that had moved outside of academia. 202 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,000 I know more people that have moved outside of academia than have stayed in it. 203 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:38,000 And it was only when realising that realising that I didn't call them failed. Actually, it was it it was fine. 204 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:43,000 But we do I think we need to have a bit more focus on the fact that lots of people 205 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,000 don't continue in a university role or in a in a research based role after their PhD 206 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000 And that that's okay. 207 00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:04,000 And that a PhD is more than just a research degree is is a feat of product management and time management and managing your own workload 208 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:13,000 and your time and managing to work independently while also having the stresses of the institution or trying to do some teaching. 209 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Or if. 210 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:22,000 If you've got funding bodies that want to know exactly what you're doing and when, then it's there's so much more to it than just the actual thesis. 211 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,000 Yeah. Like, I think sometimes it's couched in terms of being like, oh, this is research training, this is your training. 212 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,000 But actually I'm pretty sure the majority of PhDs don't go on. 213 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:39,000 Yeah. Become academics. Certainly the majority that I know aren't academics and some have. 214 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,000 And that's great. Yeah. But lots haven't 215 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,000 And they've gone into all kinds of different industries. 216 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,000 And I think. Yeah. I think we need to talk about that just a bit more really. 217 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Because it was when I found myself Googling like, what happens if I don't go into academia with a PhD 218 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:07,000 And then like there's a few blog posts and a few things saying, oh, you know, this is what your PhD actually means in terms of skills. 219 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,000 And I went, oh my goodness, I have skills. I'm just writing about film studies. 220 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:18,000 So which I knew, I knew I had skill film studies, but. 221 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,000 But it's nice to actually have that. I have someone to say it's fine. 222 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Yeah. There are other jobs and other jobs that will value your experience as well. 223 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Yeah. That will value your experience. And they might like especially like say in your case, fit better with your life. 224 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Yeah. Like, yeah. I think it's okay to put yourself first, 225 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:52,000 which is something that I didn't do during my PhD really at all and wasn't something that I was doing when I first started looking for jobs. 226 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:02,000 And it was coming to the realisation that I had absolutely no desire to apply for a job that was called what was it called? 227 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:13,000 It was called an unestablished teching fello. I like the fact that that job title even exists, made me go, oh, no, I don't think so. 228 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,000 And I think it's okay to come to that conclusion, I think. 229 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,000 But that's not what I want to say. Yeah. 230 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,000 Like, I've got a partner, I'm ready to maybe buy a house, 231 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:30,000 but actually plant down some roots somewhere rather than constantly wondering where I'm going to be next. 232 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:38,000 So that's that's an okay realisation that I have come to. 233 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,000 And yes, I do miss the teaching. The teaching is the part of it that I do miss. 234 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 But there are so many in any of the jobs that I would have applied for. 235 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,000 There was so much teaching, plus that it's never just teaching. 236 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,000 And that's the same in any teaching profession. And that's not just universities that's teaching in general. 237 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:06,000 And there are always parts of it. I went, oh yeah, I don't think I want that. 238 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,000 But I'm going into the say the stream I'm very into in the civil service is HR. 239 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,000 So it's still really people focussed. And I'm gonna be training, 240 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:22,000 I'm going to be teaching people things and I can use my skills in those ways rather than rather than teaching undergraduates specifically. 241 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000 Yeah. Is again, thinking about it, the skills and the things you enjoy in broader terms saying, yeah, 242 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,000 teaching is not just in schools and university yet it's also training, you know, everywhere. 243 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Really. Yeah. And it was sort of when I was thinking about that and I was thinking, yeah, I want to work with people. 244 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Definitely I want and I would love to be able to have some kind of teaching role in that. 245 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:53,000 But I don't want to be a school teacher. I know lots of school teachers and I think it's admirable, but it's not something I could ever do. 246 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:01,000 So and I think, oh, well, what am I going to do then? And then I was thinking, well, actually, I've gone to training, such as in my job. 247 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 So people run those. That's that's a thing that people do. 248 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,000 And yeah. So it was coming to the conclusions. Really? 249 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,000 I just needed to start thinking outside the box a bit more. 250 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,000 And there aren't just certain jobs that you have to go in to that there's all kinds of all kinds of roles that 251 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,000 you can fulfil and still work with people and still train people and have pass on knowledge and things like that. 252 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:36,000 So, yeah, that's. It's been a long time coming, but it's realisations that I gradually made over sort of the last year. 253 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Yeah. And if, say, someone else, or even just know your past self kind of in the middle of their PhD trying to figure out what they want to do next. 254 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:54,000 Is there any kind of experience you can recommend them getting or anything that you think would be helpful for them to think that would do? 255 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000 I think just thinking about overall what you'd like from a job. 256 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:08,000 So I'm in very broad terms, so I'd like to be able to manage someone or I'm not interested in management, 257 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,000 but I would like to work with people or in some kind of training capacity. 258 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:18,000 So very broad terms that on are neither academic nor non academic. 259 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:27,000 First of all, just to give you a better idea of any kind of sector that you might be able to go in, cause I certainly to begin with was very limiting. 260 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I was I limited myself to sort of higher education. It's a sector I feel really strongly about. 261 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,000 And so I thought, yeah, fine, higher education. 262 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:45,000 But there are so many different roles within higher education that you still need to have sort of an idea of what you want to do. 263 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,000 And I think it's okay to be choosy about jobs. 264 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,000 There was a period of time where I sort of just applied for anything I thought I was vaguely qualified for. 265 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 But then I thought, actually, would I want this job at all? And I really thought about it. 266 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:07,000 The answer was no. So having an idea of at least the kind of role you want and then having a look at what's out there and thinking, 267 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:13,000 okay, so I want to work with people, well, that can mean what kind of people do I want to work with? 268 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,000 And then that can point down all kinds of different roads that sort of aren't what you expected. 269 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,000 I certainly three years ago would never have said that I was gonna go into H.R. and the civil service. 270 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:30,000 That's not something that I had ever considered, but sort of just don't feel like you need to limit yourself. 271 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,000 And thinking in those broad terms can help that, I think. 272 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000 But it can be a it can be a scary place to try and just go. I need a job. 273 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:54,000 I don't know where I am. So, yes, I resisted the urge at one point just to sort of send out a CV and say needs job wll, travel. 274 00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:01,000 But yeah, thinking about that in more broad terms and then being able to pinpoint your sort of top five. 275 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,000 So I wanted a permanent job or at least something that would lead to a permanent job. 276 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And that was really high up on my list of priorities. And then as soon as you've got those priorities, 277 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:20,000 you know sort of what jobs you can apply for and what jobs really aren't worth the application process, 278 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000 because often, especially with academic jobs, I found I was putting my absolute all into an application only to be turned down. 279 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:32,000 And there are only so many rejections you can take before you start taking it personally. 280 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:38,000 So I think and on all of those, I have seen no doubt that really my application, 281 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,000 if you read if you read between the lines, you could see that it was not the job that I wanted. 282 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 And churning out applications will do that sort of you'll become very generic. 283 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:55,000 So having those sort of top five things that you're looking for that you won't compromise on. 284 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,000 So I want a permanent job. I want to work with people. 285 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:05,000 To be honest, they were my top two things. I wasn't really that fussed after that. 286 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:13,000 But at least something, at least some kind of priority will then help you draw your line as to what you apply for and what you do. 287 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Yeah. So just spending some time really reflecting on what matters to them as well. 288 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,000 Yet priorities and and thinking about whether you stay in academia or not. 289 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000 Like, where do those priotities fit in. Yeah, absolutely. 290 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,000 And I mean, to begin with, one of my priorities was I want to be able to carry on my research. 291 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,000 And flexible working options are certainly that that covers that. 292 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,000 I have no desire to completely give up research altogether. 293 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,000 I've spent so long researching and it's part of what I do. And I think it's part of me as a person. 294 00:29:52,000293 00:29:46,000 -->292 00:29:41,000 -->291 00:29:34,000 -->290 00:29:26,000 -->289 00:29:22,000 -->288 00:29:18,000 -->287 00:29:13,000 -->286 00:29:05,000 -->285 00:28:59,000 -->284 00:28:55,000 -->283 00:28:49,000 -->282 00:28:43,000 -->281 00:28:38,000 -->280 00:28:32,000 -->279 00:28:26,000 -->278 00:28:20,000 -->277 00:28:12,000 -->276 00:28:07,000 -->275 00:28:01,000 -->274 00:27:54,000 -->273 00:27:41,000 -->272 00:27:35,000 -->271 00:27:30,000 -->270 00:27:22,000 -->269 00:27:17,000 -->268 00:27:13,000 -->267 00:27:07,000 -->266 00:26:58,000 -->265 00:26:54,000 -->264 00:26:49,000 -->263 00:26:45,000 -->262 00:26:36,000 -->261 00:26:34,000 -->260 00:26:27,000 -->259 00:26:18,000 -->258 00:26:12,000 -->257 00:26:08,000 -->256 00:25:58,000 -->255 00:25:54,000 -->254 00:25:46,000 -->253 00:25:36,000 -->252 00:25:26,000 -->251 00:25:19,000 -->250 00:25:12,000 -->249 00:25:10,000 -->248 00:25:05,000 -->247 00:25:01,000 -->246 00:24:53,000 -->245 00:24:46,000 -->244 00:24:39,000 -->243 00:24:32,000 -->242 00:24:27,000 -->241 00:24:22,000 -->240 00:24:14,000 -->239 00:24:11,000 -->238 00:24:06,000 -->237 00:23:59,000 -->236 00:23:53,000 -->235 00:23:48,000 -->234 00:23:42,000 -->233 00:23:38,000 -->232 00:23:30,000 -->231 00:23:24,000 -->230 00:23:20,000 -->229 00:23:17,000 -->228 00:23:13,000 -->227 00:23:02,000 -->226 00:22:52,000 -->225 00:22:42,000 -->224 00:22:37,000 -->223 00:22:30,000 -->222 00:22:23,000 -->221 00:22:18,000 -->220 00:22:12,000 -->219 00:22:07,000 -->218 00:21:59,000 -->217 00:21:53,000 -->216 00:21:48,000 -->215 00:21:43,000 -->214 00:21:39,000 -->213 00:21:32,000 -->212 00:21:28,000 -->211 00:21:22,000 -->210 00:21:14,000 -->209 00:21:13,000 -->208 00:21:04,000 -->207 00:20:52,000 -->206 00:20:50,000 -->205 00:20:43,000 -->204 00:20:38,000 -->203 00:20:29,000 -->202 00:20:25,000 -->201 00:20:18,000 -->200 00:20:13,000 -->199 00:20:06,000 -->198 00:19:57,000 -->197 00:19:52,000 -->196 00:19:47,000 -->195 00:19:42,000 -->194 00:19:38,000 -->193 00:19:28,000 -->192 00:19:20,000 -->191 00:19:14,000 -->190 00:19:09,000 -->189 00:19:00,000 -->188 00:18:55,000 -->187 00:18:51,000 -->186 00:18:46,000 -->185 00:18:39,000 -->184 00:18:34,000 -->183 00:18:28,000 -->182 00:18:25,000 -->181 00:18:17,000 -->180 00:18:10,000 -->179 00:18:04,000 -->178 00:17:57,000 -->177 00:17:53,000 -->176 00:17:47,000 -->175 00:17:44,000 -->174 00:17:39,000 -->173 00:17:33,000 -->172 00:17:26,000 -->171 00:17:23,000 -->170 00:17:10,000 -->169 00:17:04,000 -->168 00:16:57,000 -->167 00:16:52,000 -->166 00:16:47,000 -->165 00:16:39,000 -->164 00:16:34,000 -->163 00:16:28,000 -->162 00:16:21,000 -->161 00:16:20,000 -->160 00:16:09,000 -->159 00:16:04,000 -->158 00:15:54,000 -->157 00:15:49,000 -->156 00:15:40,000 -->155 00:15:32,000 -->154 00:15:28,000 -->153 00:15:22,000 -->152 00:15:14,000 -->151 00:15:09,000 -->150 00:15:05,000 -->149 00:15:01,000 -->148 00:14:53,000 -->147 00:14:44,000 -->146 00:14:38,000 -->145 00:14:28,000 -->144 00:14:20,000 -->143 00:14:14,000 -->142 00:14:09,000 -->141 00:14:02,000 -->140 00:13:52,000 -->139 00:13:45,000 -->138 00:13:42,000 -->137 00:13:33,000 -->136 00:13:30,000 -->135 00:13:22,000 -->134 00:13:16,000 -->133 00:13:11,000 -->132 00:13:04,000 -->131 00:12:57,000 -->130 00:12:49,000 -->129 00:12:43,000 -->128 00:12:37,000 -->127 00:12:32,000 -->126 00:12:24,000 -->125 00:12:20,000 -->124 00:12:12,000 -->123 00:12:04,000 -->122 00:11:55,000 -->121 00:11:51,000 -->120 00:11:48,000 -->119 00:11:41,000 -->118 00:11:36,000 -->117 00:11:27,000 -->116 00:11:23,000 -->115 00:11:18,000 -->114 00:11:11,000 -->113 00:11:04,000 -->112 00:11:01,000 -->111 00:10:55,000 -->110 00:10:51,000 -->109 00:10:45,000 -->108 00:10:40,000 -->107 00:10:31,000 -->106 00:10:26,000 -->105 00:10:22,000 -->104 00:10:14,000 -->103 00:10:09,000 -->102 00:10:04,000 -->101 00:09:59,000 -->100 00:09:55,000 -->99 00:09:49,000 -->98 00:09:44,000 -->97 00:09:40,000 -->96 00:09:36,000 -->95 00:09:32,000 -->94 00:09:28,000 -->93 00:09:20,000 -->92 00:09:15,000 -->91 00:09:07,000 -->90 00:09:01,000 -->89 00:08:57,000 -->88 00:08:45,000 -->87 00:08:40,000 -->86 00:08:36,000 -->85 00:08:32,000 -->84 00:08:24,000 -->83 00:08:20,000 -->82 00:08:16,000 -->81 00:08:08,000 -->80 00:08:03,000 -->79 00:08:00,000 -->78 00:07:52,000 -->77 00:07:46,000 -->76 00:07:37,000 -->75 00:07:30,000 -->74 00:07:27,000 -->73 00:07:21,000 -->72 00:07:16,000 -->71 00:07:12,000 -->70 00:07:06,000 -->69 00:06:59,000 -->68 00:06:52,000 -->67 00:06:43,000 -->66 00:06:41,000 -->65 00:06:34,000 -->64 00:06:33,000 -->63 00:06:26,000 -->62 00:06:21,000 -->61 00:06:12,000 -->60 00:06:11,000 -->59 00:06:05,000 -->58 00:05:59,000 -->57 00:05:54,000 -->56 00:05:46,000 -->55 00:05:42,000 -->54 00:05:36,000 -->53 00:05:29,000 -->52 00:05:25,000 -->51 00:05:21,000 -->50 00:05:17,000 -->49 00:05:10,000 -->48 00:05:06,000 -->47 00:04:57,000 -->46 00:04:49,000 -->45 00:04:44,000 -->44 00:04:38,000 -->43 00:04:32,000 -->42 00:04:28,000 -->41 00:04:21,000 -->40 00:04:15,000 -->39 00:04:08,000 -->38 00:04:04,000 -->37 00:03:58,000 -->36 00:03:54,000 -->35 00:03:50,000 -->34 00:03:46,000 -->33 00:03:41,000 -->32 00:03:30,000 -->31 00:03:22,000 -->30 00:03:14,000 -->29 00:03:09,000 -->28 00:03:04,000 -->27 00:02:59,000 -->26 00:02:53,000 -->25 00:02:49,000 -->24 00:02:44,000 -->23 00:02:38,000 -->22 00:02:31,000 -->21 00:02:27,000 -->20 00:02:19,000 -->19 00:02:10,000 -->18 00:02:04,000 -->17 00:01:59,000 -->16 00:01:55,000 -->15 00:01:50,000 -->14 00:01:42,000 -->13 00:01:35,000 -->12 00:01:27,000 -->11 00:01:19,000 -->10 00:01:15,000 -->9 00:01:10,000 -->8 00:01:01,000 -->7 00:00:59,000 -->6 00:00:54,000 -->5 00:00:46,000 -->4 00:00:37,000 -->3 00:00:27,000 -->2 00:00:19,000 -->1 00:00:10,000 -->

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. David Musgrove, Publisher at Immediate Media Co.   Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter doctoral college 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:22,000 I'm Kelly Preece, researcher development manager in the doctoral college at the University of Exeter. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,000 And I'll be your host today. Hello. 4 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Hi. Hi. OK. So my name is Dave Musgrove and I studied here at Exeter. 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:41,000 I did my B.A. here in archaeology and I went on to do a PhD in the archaeology department. 6 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:49,000 There was a year in between times when I went out and worked for a few companies doing various temping jobs. 7 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:57,000 But I came back. I was very, very grateful to be asked back and be given a funded opportunity to do a PhD 8 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:06,000 All about the mediaeval landscape archaeology of the Peet Moors of the Somerset Levels a title I remember well from doing it. 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:13,000 And I did my PhD in three years and then I left and did not carry on into academia. 10 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:27,000 So the my career since then has been I've been essentially working in the media, specifically in magazine publishing, 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:36,000 but also latterly in online publishing because of the realities of the print magazine publishing world. 12 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And the fact that online is is clearly an important place in which publishing happens. 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:47,000 So how did I get into that role? 14 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Well. So whilst I was doing my PhD It became fairly clear to me that I probably wasn't going to become an academic. 15 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000 So I think it was really in the second year of my PhD, actually, that I thought I ought to be thinking about what else I could be doing. 16 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,000 So I chatted to my supervisor and said that I was thinking I was quite interested in publishing. 17 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:21,000 I've been doing some work for her, editing some of her manuscripts and doing some page, lay out some of her books. 18 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:28,000 So I'd been developing some skills. There getting a bit of cash and that had sparked a bit of interest to me. 19 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:37,000 So she suggested I go along to the University Press here at Exeter and see if they had any volunteering work experience opportunities, 20 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:44,000 which I duly did. And and I enjoyed that and must have be reasonably proficient because they offered me some part time work. 21 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:50,000 They're just doing general admin and a little bit of light editing. 22 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:56,000 So I did that for the latter part of my PhD 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 And I met somebody there who had some contacts in the magazine publishing world. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:09,000 So when I finished my Ph.D., she very kindly put me in touch with some people at a company called Future Publishing, 25 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:17,000 which is based in Bath, which produces lots of, still going, produces, lots of computer magazines and other things. 26 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:27,000 And I had also, whilst I was in my PhD, I had taken an interest in the Internet, which at the time I was doing my PhD. 27 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 That was a few years ago the Internet was only really starting off and I learnt how 28 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:42,000 to do HTML coding and I was able to get a job on a magazine about the Internet. 29 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Well, I applied for it. And with the contacts that I had been given by this person at the University press, I had a little bit of a step in. 30 00:03:52,000 --> 00:04:01,000 And so I got a job while working for as a very base layer level on this magazine for a couple of years. 31 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:14,000 I was very lucky to get on a training programme there for magazine journalism, and that got me into into the world of of magazines. 32 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:21,000 I worked on various other computer and Internet magazines at Future Publishing for a few years and then 33 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 heard about a History magazine launching at a rival company in Bristol called Origin Publishing. 34 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:36,000 So I applied for a job there. Got it. And obviously played off my doctoral skills to get that. 35 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:44,000 And I've been with that company ever since. It's been through various guises and was bought by the BBC. 36 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:53,000 And I ended up working on BBC History magazine, which is a very popular History magazine, the most popular History magazine in the UK. 37 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,000 And I've essentially been working on that for the last few years, 38 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:05,000 as in various roles as the editor for about a decade and then subsequently as the publisher and content director. 39 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,000 So I'm now in a managerial capacity, but still within a media company. 40 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,000 So that's the story. Fantastic thank you so 41 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:24,000 You say things that spring to mind and about the importance of some of that. 42 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:33,000 Experiences you picked up alongside the PhD. So you talked about having had a year gap before and doing various like temping jobs. 43 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Were any of those things related to your subject area or to publishing or were they kind of just General? Nope 44 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,000 They were a variety of jobs, working in a postroom, working. 45 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:56,000 I ended up working for a market research company, and I think we'd probably be described as a graduate level job, as a market research executive. 46 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,000 Which to be honest I didn't particularly enjoy. 47 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:07,000 And that was what led me to think, well, maybe I'll have another crack at academia for a bit. 48 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 I think all those all those positions, you know, you can pull out some skills from them, 49 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,000 some experience which is helpful in getting the first real job that you want to do. 50 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:30,000 And definitely, I think for anyone who's looking to enter the job market, you know, you know, in a professional capacity, 51 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:39,000 you need to draw on any any possible skills you can think of from from Part-Time work or temporary work that you've done and just, 52 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,000 you know, make sure that you can you can flag up one thing that you learnt from that. 53 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,000 So when I worked in a postroom for instance sure, I would have said that it helped me develop my people skills because I was dealing 54 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000 with a lot of a lot of um trubulent individuals who wanted their post 55 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,000 I don't remember exactly what I said. But, you know, there were you can always find something. 56 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:09,000 Some even from the most uninspiring sort of job. You can always find something that she can allude to in an interview or in a CV. 57 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:16,000 So when you were applying for those that the first role and at the at Future publishing in Bath 58 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:24,000 you talked about kind of drawing in quite a wide range of interests. And obviously you're relying quite heavily on your writing and editing skills. 59 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:36,000 And what else did you draw on in applying and by doing the role in particular in regards to having done a PhD, having done a research degree? 60 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Well, I think one of the one of the things that I particularly draw on for that first role was the was the fact that it wasn't specifically related to 61 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:52,000 my PhD but that I done during my studies, which was learning to code websites, 62 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:59,000 which only had the opportunity to do because I had some time in my you know, in my in my research calendar. 63 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,000 And there were some facilities here to enable me to do that. 64 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:15,000 So I was clearly able to draw on that, to give me this sort of specialism that they were interested in for that particular magazine. 65 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 In general, I'm sure I would have said, and I would have meant it, 66 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:34,000 that my my doctoral studies had given me an overarching sense of responsibility in the 67 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000 understanding of the importance of personal responsibility in all aspects of work. 68 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,000 And I would have played quite heavily on the fact that I've shown that I have the 69 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,000 ability to do a project and carry it through to completion on my own volition. 70 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:00,000 And I think that's me. That's one of the really big things you can say from from from doctoral research is to say, 71 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,000 you know, you clearly have the capacity for independent work. 72 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 What you need to then do is to demonstrate that you also have the capacity and the flexibility 73 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:16,000 to work in a team environment where you're not working solely to your own agenda. 74 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 And that's probably one of the things I think maybe is a more difficult aspect for people coming from transitioning out of academia into the business 75 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:31,000 world or or even into into the public sector is to demonstrate that you have 76 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:36,000 the facility to work in an office environment rather than just on your own. 77 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,000 And there are numerous ways to do that. 78 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:46,000 You can allude back to your employment experience if you've worked in a, you know, had a temporary job in an office or in a pub or both, which I did. 79 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Then you can demonstrate that. But I think that's quite important. 80 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,000 I think that's a start is a potential stumbling block for people who who see you may be actually on to see. 81 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 They think, well, that's great. Can they can they work in an office? 82 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Yeah. And I do think and we know from research that's quite prevalent perception of but from employers, 83 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:16,000 of people coming from academia or having done the PhD, it's the idea that that quite solitary and detail oriented, 84 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:24,000 very focussed on themselves and their own work and perhaps lack those kind of team working and interpersonal skills and increasingly with the kind of. 85 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:33,000 Environments that we have in the university and from shared office space to some of the leadership roles are available to our students. 86 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Like being a PGR representative or various different things. Actually, there's, you know, even just organising a conference with a group of people. 87 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,000 There's some real opportunities to pick up on and draw in those skills. 88 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Yeah, I'd say that's super important. I don't think for one moment think that doctoral candidates or PhD students are lonesome. 89 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:01,000 Weirdos No, I wasn't. Maybe I was, you know, but I think that is that soon. 90 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,000 I think you're right. That is a perception from employers that that's something that some perhaps goes with the territory. 91 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:14,000 And I think there are, as you say, there are lots of ways that you can demonstrate that you're not that you have team working skills. 92 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,000 You just need to make sure that you've thought about that and you've got some answers, 93 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,000 but not down pat that that's that's going to alleviate that concern. 94 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Do you think they for somebody that's been through that process for also thinking, you know, where you are now as an employer and as a manager? 95 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Are there other areas that you would see that you think a particular kind of stumbling 96 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:39,000 blocks are people who are looking to move from doing PhD to beyond academia? 97 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:50,000 I suppose there's always the sense that is, it is the person who's kind of who's coming to you. 98 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Are they actually interested in the role you're doing or are they simply because they haven't been able to get an academic job? 99 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:05,000 And I think that is quite a thing that would be a concern for some employers to think, well, you know this person. 100 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,000 They've gone down. They've gone this far down a route of research. 101 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:16,000 Why aren't they weren't they carry on? Weren't they doing what one assumes they wanted to do? 102 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,000 So I think that's key. Again, is easy to counter that. 103 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,000 You just need to think about it. You just need to be clear about what you're doing and you need to express. 104 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Well, this is this goes for any job. 105 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,000 You need to have a very good reason why you want the job and you need to be keen and enthusiastic and have a good answer. 106 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:39,000 I mean, if you're in in an interview situation and you're not asked why you want the job, then that's a bit odd. 107 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,000 I've never been in an interview, not been asked. So you have to expect it and you have to have a good answer. 108 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:50,000 And and you have to be able to demonstrate that you really want that job. 109 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,000 And perhaps it builds on what you did in your in your doctoral studies. 110 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:01,000 Perhaps it's perhaps it's some in some way linked to or if it's completely ensconsed then that's fine. 111 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,000 But you just need to demonstrate that you are fully committed to that. 112 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,000 And the reason why you are no longer carrying on academia is whatever it is. 113 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:19,000 And just make sure you've got that nailed down, say, just picking up on it. 114 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:26,000 What was it like for you to do those three really intensive years on that one project 115 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:33,000 and then to leave that project for also research and for a certain amount of time, 116 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,000 history and archaeology behind me on something completely different? Did you find that difficult? 117 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,000 Did you find it quite exciting? 118 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:56,000 So I was I was very pleased to put away my books about mediaeval Peet Moors and my struggles with the paleo graphy of mediaeval Latin. 119 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Glastonbury Abbey rolls briefly. 120 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:12,000 I was pleased. And then I was yeah, I was I was pretty gutted that I hadn't hadn't carried on with it. 121 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:20,000 But with the wave, a realisation of a practical realised realisation that I wasn't gonna be a great academic. 122 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000 I think I sort of clocked that that, you know, in seminars. 123 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,000 I wasn't the person coming up with the, you know, the really insightful grasp of the topics and stuff. 124 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:37,000 So I was aware that I was never gonna become a great professor. 125 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:44,000 But, yeah, I was it was I was sad that I wasn't or wasn't involved in that environment anymore. 126 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 But on the flip side, it was a really, really interesting role. 127 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,000 I was really fascinated in what I was doing. I was learning a lot of skills. 128 00:14:51,000 --> 00:15:01,000 I was under a completely different sort of pressure. I mean, I've been under a long, grinding pressure to get to the end of the of the PhD 129 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 And then I was immediately shipped and it was pretty much immediate I didn't take a break. 130 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:16,000 And I was skint pretty pretty much straight into into this job, which which was brilliant because I needed work and money and a new new focus. 131 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 I think if I hadn't had that, then that might have been worse. 132 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 If I'd just been sat around thinking, oh God, I've done this. PhD 133 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Now, I've got nothing. I was I was quite a long way behind my peers in terms of salary and position, which was a bit difficult. 134 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,000 But some, you know, things tend to equalise out. 135 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,000 So I wouldn't I wouldn't worry about that too much. But it was yeah. 136 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:53,000 In terms of deadlines, it was like so I'd come from this long, long deadline into having a deadline every day, 137 00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:04,000 week, month, and it was unique sort of pressure really exciting. Working with a bunch of people who were really nice and who were all one of the great 138 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000 things was they were just all really interested in the fact that I done a PhF and, 139 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,000 you know, I was politely mocked for being a doctor in the house. 140 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000 And I think you'd kind of you do have to accept laughs or traded on that over the years. 141 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000 You know, that the doctors here I. Now how I'm using. 142 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,000 So but, you know, it was it was it was actually a really interesting experience. 143 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:38,000 And, yeah, it was fun. So you mentioned about kind of entering in and being behind your peers in terms of salary, but that equalising out over time. 144 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Is that because you found that you progressed quicker even though you went in at a lower level? 145 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,000 I mean, I don't actually know. I feel quite comfortable in one day and. 146 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:58,000 Yeah, and and what I'm learning now, and that's that's fine, because I think I did progressed pretty quickly. 147 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,000 I think I was pretty I was keen. I was enthusiastic and I wanted to get on with stuff. 148 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000 And there was probably people who didn't quite have that sense of urgency. 149 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:17,000 And so that was so that was actually I was released what was good. And I pushed myself forward, you know, and I pushed for promotions. 150 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:24,000 I insisted on promotions. I said, I'm doing this on, I'm really good and you need to give me a promotion. 151 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,000 And yeah. And I got something. 152 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:40,000 And then I guess when I blundered back into a role that was closer to my research studies, though actually still some distance. 153 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 Yeah. And then I was able to play back off that. 154 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:53,000 But now that academic background. Did that give me more of a platform for Payrise? 155 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,000 I, I don't know. But I think it is certainly helped me in my career. 156 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:08,000 And I've I've I've I've used the fact that I've done the research to to make a lot of contacts and to push myself forward. 157 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,000 And so so I see I see practical benefits there. 158 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:23,000 But I'm reasonably unique space in terms of of my career path going from academia and then finding something that's a little bit similar to it. 159 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,000 But but actually still quite different. Yes. Say, you mentioned a couple of things partly. 160 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,000 And I wanted to pick up on you mentioned about making contacts, 161 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:42,000 and various different things that obviously that was really fundamental for you in getting that first that first role. 162 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 What would you experience like of going through that interview process? 163 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And like throughout your career, how how fundamental have you found that kind of sense of contacts and networks to be in terms 164 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,000 of moving forward or moving sideways or just essentially changing roles or changing path? 165 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:10,000 I mean, you know, you would like the world to not be somewhere where you get by, by who you know. 166 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:18,000 But reality is that is helpful to have people who can put in a good word if you say this person's good or work. 167 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,000 And and that certainly helps. Yeah. 168 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,000 I'm very grateful to that first colleague who I mean, they didn't didn't get me the job. 169 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,000 They just they just, um, they just put me in touch with somebody and, um, put my name in the frame. 170 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:41,000 And that was that was that was that was much appreciated. And also I just, you know, maybe I wouldn't have applied for that role if I hadn't been. 171 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:47,000 So if it hadn't been mentioned to me, that  there was the role going at the interview. 172 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,000 I mean, I think I think I've, in all interviews, 173 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000 always found the fact that I have PhD to be useful just in the sense that it does give you a conversation piece. 174 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:04,000 And they say, you know, I see you've done a PhD and you say, yeah, I was on the mediaeval exploitations of Peet Moors in the Somerset levels. 175 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:11,000 That sounds very boring, doesn't it? And and and and then but you can then say, well, I can say sorry. 176 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Mildly interesting about. Oh. But it just gives you it makes you sound Slightly more interesting than other people. 177 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:24,000 And I think that is useful in a in an interview environment. You do need to sound interesting. 178 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:32,000 And that gives you that gives you a little bit more ammunition. So if you have traded on that in every interview environment. 179 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,000 I mean it. I don't recall doing much of interview practise when I was studying. 180 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:50,000 So I think my kind of imagine my initial interview was a great success, but it was it was enough to get me the job. 181 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:58,000 Maybe I should have done more interview practise. And I'm not sure I'm not sure how far that's the thing for positions these days to do. 182 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:05,000 But I think that should be useful to make sure that you are doing a bit of that and have an idea about what might well might come your way. 183 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 Yeah, there's quite a lot of support that if any institution through my team, 184 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 but also through the career service about things like preparing for interviews, 185 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:21,000 particularly if you get how much experience, job interviews or you have any particular anxieties around them, what they might be like. 186 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000 And we actually have them. We have this piece of software called Interview Stream where you can set up your own questions 187 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,000 and kind of record yourself and do practise and get feedback on all sorts of things. 188 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,000 It is really interesting to be very disconcerting for me to watch myself, but it does help people. 189 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Would definitely, definitely think those sorts of things. Everyone should take advantage of those. 190 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000 Even if you you're brilliant interviewere then I still think you should have a go and just 191 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,000 I would just point out that fact that you have something interesting to say. 192 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,000 So do make sure you and it will make you feel more at ease if you could. 193 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,000 You know, if you have half a minute to say something that you are a real expert, take pleasure on don't take an hour, obviously. 194 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,000 But just say something that sounds interesting. 195 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:10,000 And it is if you to make the whoever is interviewing you think, oh, that's somebody whom I might learn something from, who I might enjoy being, 196 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:19,000 you know, who isn't a strange weirdo who who actually has something interesting say and I guess is something really stand out about that, 197 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 because it's sort only it's a slightly more unusual thing to be to have people coming in 198 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:32,000 who do have a PhD or who have that level of expertise in something very specific. 199 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,000 You know, you talked about that role and going on a training programme. 200 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,000 So can you tell me a bit about what that was on and how that came about? 201 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:50,000 But also what I think what it was like to go back to learning that sense once you've started a professional job. 202 00:22:50,000 --> 00:23:00,000 I mean, that was it was brilliant. It was basically a run a year long training programme for trainee journalists, essentially. 203 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,000 And every week there was a half a day out for a few, 204 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:16,000 a group of ten of us to go and be taught stuff by professional journalists and editors, which was actually fantastic. 205 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 And I embraced it and and and loved it. 206 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,000 And it was it was very different because of that. 207 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,000 We have direct learning. It wasn't you know, I wasn't researching. 208 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:35,000 I was being told stuff and being given tasks and, you know, being being told to told what to do and then trying to get ahead. 209 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:42,000 So I suppose. That you might you might think you're better than that. 210 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:51,000 If you've got to go to PhD, why? Well, I've already done all this training. But, you know, humility is a good thing in general. 211 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,000 And in life. And I was. No, I didn't think that I thought was fascinating. 212 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,000 And I realised I really needed to understand things. And I really needed to learn how to do the job if I wanted to progress 213 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:12,000 I was very grateful for it. And it was it was excellent, I think, you know, government's phrase of lifelong learning or whatever. 214 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,000 But it's true. You need to you do need to constantly be trying to progress and learn things. 215 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000 And if you're not doing that something, you you'll get bored anyway. 216 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:27,000 But but you do need to do that for your career progression, whatever. 217 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000 So you talked about doing some editing for your supervisor, you know, for a fact they were working. 218 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000 And so you and you worked for the university press. 219 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,000 You obviously have some kind of experience with publishing, albeit quite different kind of publishing. 220 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:52,000 And when you you're doing that training course, how different did you find the approach to things like writing and editing and perhaps researching an 221 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,000 article or a story where you might have used those fundamental skills when you were doing your PhD? 222 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000 But how different did you find the use of them in that context? 223 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Or did you find you kind of needed to relearn how to do those things in a different way? 224 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Yeah, probably because, well, the stuff those doing for my supervisor was to her standards, to her to to her convention. 225 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,000 So that was fine. I was just doing on what I was told and and it was very useful, interesting learning experience. 226 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,000 And then everyone has different conventions and and brings. 227 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:40,000 But I think specifically in terms of the question of research and and using your research skills, what you need to do is, 228 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,000 you know, work environment is you need to be able to stop once you've done it, once you've found something found out. 229 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:50,000 I once thought we'd done something that's that's that's enough in a day. 230 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:57,000 It's never enough. You always the next rabbit hole to go down in the next journal article to look at the next 231 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:03,000 think to have a look at And you're trying to basically understand everything as much as you can about whatever it is you're looking, 232 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:10,000 whereas particularly in a journalistic environment, if you can't do that, you've got half a half day, half an hour to do something. 233 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000 You've just got to get to the bottom of it as quickly as you can and be happy 234 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000 with that and and develop a sense of pragmatism if you haven't got one already. 235 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,000 Did you find that quite difficult and moving from the kind of longer scale project 236 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,000 and longer scale questioning to something that is quite discrete and quite quick? 237 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:34,000 Yeah, I understand, but I had no choice because you've got deadline and you've got to you've got to deliver. 238 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,000 I mean, there's you kind of I was I was really worried about all the stuff I did for a little while 239 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:47,000 I thought, well i was only given this an hour. Listen, I can't possibly this can't be right. 240 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,000 But you just got to rolle with it and trust that you've done as best you can. 241 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:59,000 So you talked about obviously going on to a history based magazine. 242 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:06,000 So you're closer to the kind of background you had in your PhD and that you've moved on to a more managerial role now 243 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:14,000 So thinking about yourself as, I guess as an employer. 244 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:25,000 What if you had a PhD got you or someone that's just come into the PhD interviewing for a similar role, kind of perhaps where you started? 245 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,000 You and your team, your organisation, what what are you looking for from them? 246 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000 So I suppose it's a bit different, in fact, of my background. 247 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,000 I would be I'd probably look more favourably on someone who's gonna see them, perhaps someone who hasn't. 248 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,000 And I think you do need to view. 249 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Is it. That's it. But I mean. I interviewed yesterday for for a role and the person I interviewed had all the skills. 250 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,000 I mean, clearly, you need to demonstrate you've got the skills for the job. 251 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:07,000 So that was fun. But she was also. Shouldn't she? 252 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:20,000 She I think she had an MA She she was enthusiastic, keen and had. 253 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Enough of a sense of how to describe it. 254 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:36,000 She wasn't afraid to stop and ask for a bit of time to answer questions, so she was confident enough in herself to say, I need to. 255 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:44,000 I just need to address this properly. So I saw a good level of maturity in her. 256 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:52,000 She's quite young. And I think as a as a precondition, you could you could you could trade on that quite well. 257 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,000 You could trade on that sense of maturity and sense of of self-worth, 258 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,000 self-knowledge without appearing to be some sort of braggart or something that you've you've done extended research. 259 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,000 And I think that that is a pitfall you definitely don't want to come across as someone who's, you know better than anyone else. 260 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,000 And that's clearly would be a bad. Yes. So that kind of elitist. 261 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that. But definitely, you know, I'm looking for someone who has who has great enthusiasm. 262 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,000 I want somebody who wants the job. I want somebody who had the same sense of urgency as I had when I was 23 263 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:38,000 24. Looking for a job. I want somebody who's going to be banging on my door saying, I want a promotion. 264 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,000 I want to be better. I want to do this training course. You want those people in your in your in your teams. 265 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:51,000 You want people you don't want people to just sit around waiting for wait for the bell. 266 00:29:51,000 --> 00:30:00,000 So so enthusiasm is is there is the absolute thing I look for, you know, and and confidence. 267 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,000 I think confidence is is is it is it is great. So in an interview and. 268 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,000 So. So you make sure you go out and. 269 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:18,000 We've got any students listening who are thinking about going into into magazine publishing or online publishing as you are now. 270 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,000 What advice would you give them in terms of perhaps some of the things to. 271 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,000 Do alongside their studies or that particular kind of volunteering experiences you think would 272 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:37,000 be useful or their particular skill sets that you think they really need to focus on developing. 273 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,000 So if you're at Exeter, I would expect you to be writing for expose 274 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:54,000 I would expect you to be contributing to that to that magazine in some format. 275 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,000 You should have a blog. You should be you should be blogging. You should be on social media. 276 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:08,000 I should be able to find you on Twitter and Facebook and not think that you're completely wild individual. 277 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:17,000 But then I should I should be able to see that you are looking to promote yourself in those in those environments. 278 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:28,000 You probably we're doing a podcast. I mean, those are all the things that a modern journalist needs to be doing. 279 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,000 So I would I would advise you to be developing in all those areas. 280 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,000 On top of that, there are numerous opportunities to do a bit of work experience or internship or, 281 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,000 you know, apply for competitions, writing competitions, that sort of thing. 282 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,000 You know, I think the person I interviewed yesterday had won a poetry competition 283 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,000 So those sorts of things, I think they are they just make you think, but they are bothered 284 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,000 They are interested that they are enthusiastic. They do care about this and they have a passion for it. 285 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:04,000 And that's those would all be things that I would I would definitely try and do. 286 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:12,000 So, yes, you need to show that you that you are actually interested in writing and editing if you are trying to get into a media career. 287 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:19,000 And that sense of enthusiasm and passion has come across really strongly in all of the answers you've given, 288 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:30,000 actually, that one of the fundamental things is about. Being interested and having that sense of motivation to move forward and find out more. 289 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:39,000 And I certainly think from my experience working with our PhD students on our research degree students, that's something they have in droves, 290 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:47,000 you know, because you290 00:32:39,000 -->289 00:32:30,000 -->288 00:32:19,000 -->287 00:32:12,000 -->286 00:32:04,000 -->285 00:31:57,000 -->284 00:31:52,000 -->283 00:31:48,000 -->282 00:31:43,000 -->281 00:31:39,000 -->280 00:31:34,000 -->279 00:31:28,000 -->278 00:31:17,000 -->277 00:31:08,000 -->276 00:30:59,000 -->275 00:30:54,000 -->274 00:30:42,000 -->273 00:30:37,000 -->272 00:30:30,000 -->271 00:30:24,000 -->270 00:30:18,000 -->269 00:30:10,000 -->268 00:30:06,000 -->267 00:30:00,000 -->266 00:29:51,000 -->265 00:29:44,000 -->264 00:29:38,000 -->263 00:29:31,000 -->262 00:29:24,000 -->261 00:29:15,000 -->260 00:29:10,000 -->259 00:29:05,000 -->258 00:28:58,000 -->257 00:28:52,000 -->256 00:28:44,000 -->255 00:28:36,000 -->254 00:28:25,000 -->253 00:28:20,000 -->252 00:28:07,000 -->251 00:28:00,000 -->250 00:27:56,000 -->249 00:27:45,000 -->248 00:27:40,000 -->247 00:27:34,000 -->246 00:27:30,000 -->245 00:27:25,000 -->244 00:27:14,000 -->243 00:27:06,000 -->242 00:26:59,000 -->241 00:26:53,000 -->240 00:26:47,000 -->239 00:26:40,000 -->238 00:26:34,000 -->237 00:26:28,000 -->236 00:26:23,000 -->235 00:26:18,000 -->234 00:26:14,000 -->233 00:26:10,000 -->232 00:26:03,000 -->231 00:25:57,000 -->230 00:25:50,000 -->229 00:25:45,000 -->228 00:25:40,000 -->227 00:25:30,000 -->226 00:25:26,000 -->225 00:25:19,000 -->224 00:25:05,000 -->223 00:25:01,000 -->222 00:24:58,000 -->221 00:24:52,000 -->220 00:24:42,000 -->219 00:24:36,000 -->218 00:24:33,000 -->217 00:24:27,000 -->216 00:24:21,000 -->215 00:24:17,000 -->214 00:24:12,000 -->213 00:24:03,000 -->212 00:23:56,000 -->211 00:23:51,000 -->210 00:23:42,000 -->209 00:23:35,000 -->208 00:23:26,000 -->207 00:23:23,000 -->206 00:23:19,000 -->205 00:23:16,000 -->204 00:23:06,000 -->203 00:23:00,000 -->202 00:22:50,000 -->201 00:22:43,000 -->200 00:22:38,000 -->199 00:22:32,000 -->198 00:22:25,000 -->197 00:22:19,000 -->196 00:22:10,000 -->195 00:22:02,000 -->194 00:22:01,000 -->193 00:21:54,000 -->192 00:21:50,000 -->191 00:21:46,000 -->190 00:21:41,000 -->189 00:21:36,000 -->188 00:21:31,000 -->187 00:21:26,000 -->186 00:21:21,000 -->185 00:21:13,000 -->184 00:21:09,000 -->183 00:21:05,000 -->182 00:20:58,000 -->181 00:20:50,000 -->180 00:20:38,000 -->179 00:20:32,000 -->178 00:20:24,000 -->177 00:20:18,000 -->176 00:20:11,000 -->175 00:20:04,000 -->174 00:19:57,000 -->173 00:19:51,000 -->172 00:19:47,000 -->171 00:19:41,000 -->170 00:19:32,000 -->169 00:19:27,000 -->168 00:19:22,000 -->167 00:19:18,000 -->166 00:19:10,000 -->165 00:19:02,000 -->164 00:18:55,000 -->163 00:18:47,000 -->162 00:18:42,000 -->161 00:18:33,000 -->160 00:18:29,000 -->159 00:18:23,000 -->158 00:18:12,000 -->157 00:18:08,000 -->156 00:17:58,000 -->155 00:17:53,000 -->154 00:17:46,000 -->153 00:17:40,000 -->152 00:17:28,000 -->151 00:17:24,000 -->150 00:17:17,000 -->149 00:17:10,000 -->148 00:17:03,000 -->147 00:16:58,000 -->146 00:16:51,000 -->145 00:16:45,000 -->144 00:16:38,000 -->143 00:16:29,000 -->142 00:16:22,000 -->141 00:16:16,000 -->140 00:16:12,000 -->139 00:16:07,000 -->138 00:16:04,000 -->137 00:15:53,000 -->136 00:15:48,000 -->135 00:15:43,000 -->134 00:15:39,000 -->133 00:15:24,000 -->132 00:15:20,000 -->131 00:15:16,000 -->130 00:15:05,000 -->129 00:15:01,000 -->128 00:14:51,000 -->127 00:14:48,000 -->126 00:14:44,000 -->125 00:14:37,000 -->124 00:14:30,000 -->123 00:14:24,000 -->122 00:14:20,000 -->121 00:14:12,000 -->120 00:14:00,000 -->119 00:13:56,000 -->118 00:13:42,000 -->117 00:13:38,000 -->116 00:13:33,000 -->115 00:13:26,000 -->114 00:13:19,000 -->113 00:13:13,000 -->112 00:13:06,000 -->111 00:13:01,000 -->110 00:12:55,000 -->109 00:12:50,000 -->108 00:12:44,000 -->107 00:12:39,000 -->106 00:12:32,000 -->105 00:12:27,000 -->104 00:12:25,000 -->103 00:12:20,000 -->102 00:12:16,000 -->101 00:12:09,000 -->100 00:12:05,000 -->99 00:11:56,000 -->98 00:11:50,000 -->97 00:11:39,000 -->96 00:11:34,000 -->95 00:11:30,000 -->94 00:11:22,000 -->93 00:11:17,000 -->92 00:11:14,000 -->91 00:11:07,000 -->90 00:11:01,000 -->89 00:10:54,000 -->88 00:10:44,000 -->87 00:10:40,000 -->86 00:10:33,000 -->85 00:10:24,000 -->84 00:10:16,000 -->83 00:10:08,000 -->82 00:10:01,000 -->81 00:09:57,000 -->80 00:09:51,000 -->79 00:09:46,000 -->78 00:09:38,000 -->77 00:09:36,000 -->76 00:09:31,000 -->75 00:09:25,000 -->74 00:09:16,000 -->73 00:09:10,000 -->72 00:09:05,000 -->71 00:09:00,000 -->70 00:08:52,000 -->69 00:08:46,000 -->68 00:08:40,000 -->67 00:08:34,000 -->66 00:08:20,000 -->65 00:08:15,000 -->64 00:08:02,000 -->63 00:07:59,000 -->62 00:07:52,000 -->61 00:07:44,000 -->60 00:07:36,000 -->59 00:07:24,000 -->58 00:07:16,000 -->57 00:07:09,000 -->56 00:07:00,000 -->55 00:06:56,000 -->54 00:06:50,000 -->53 00:06:44,000 -->52 00:06:39,000 -->51 00:06:30,000 -->50 00:06:18,000 -->49 00:06:13,000 -->48 00:06:07,000 -->47 00:06:01,000 -->46 00:05:56,000 -->45 00:05:46,000 -->44 00:05:40,000 -->43 00:05:33,000 -->42 00:05:24,000 -->41 00:05:15,000 -->40 00:05:10,000 -->39 00:05:05,000 -->38 00:04:56,000 -->37 00:04:53,000 -->36 00:04:44,000 -->35 00:04:36,000 -->34 00:04:28,000 -->33 00:04:21,000 -->32 00:04:14,000 -->31 00:04:01,000 -->30 00:03:52,000 -->29 00:03:42,000 -->28 00:03:34,000 -->27 00:03:27,000 -->26 00:03:17,000 -->25 00:03:09,000 -->24 00:03:01,000 -->23 00:02:56,000 -->22 00:02:50,000 -->21 00:02:44,000 -->20 00:02:37,000 -->19 00:02:28,000 -->18 00:02:21,000 -->17 00:02:12,000 -->16 00:02:06,000 -->15 00:01:58,000 -->14 00:01:47,000 -->13 00:01:42,000 -->12 00:01:36,000 -->11 00:01:27,000 -->10 00:01:13,000 -->9 00:01:06,000 -->8 00:00:57,000 -->7 00:00:49,000 -->6 00:00:41,000 -->5 00:00:32,000 -->4 00:00:25,000 -->3 00:00:22,000 -->2 00:00:15,000 -->1 00:00:10,000 -->