Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. David Jacoby, Research Fellow at the Zoological Society of London. You can find out more about David on his LinkedIn profile.

Music credit: Cheery Monday Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,870 --> 00:00:15,620 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College

2 00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:23,920 Hello.

3 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,960 I'm Kelly Peece and welcome to this episode. Today I'm going to be talking to David Jacoby.

4 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:38,800 David works as a research fellow in a university affiliated institution, so he's kind of bridging that gap between industry and academia.

5 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,910 Hi, David. Can you introduce yourself? My name is Dr. David Jacoby.

6 00:00:43,910 --> 00:00:49,840 I'm a research fellow at the Institute of Zoology, which is part of the Zoological Society of London.

7 00:00:49,840 --> 00:01:00,470 I've been working there for roughly seven years now. I graduated from the University of Exeter with a research degree in 2012.

8 00:01:00,470 --> 00:01:06,380 My PhD was in animal behaviour and that was from the School of Psychology at the Streatham campus,

9 00:01:06,380 --> 00:01:13,430 and it focussed predominantly on the application of network analysis for understanding shark behaviour.

10 00:01:13,430 --> 00:01:19,130 So, David, can you tell me a little bit about your current role and what it involves as a research fellow?

11 00:01:19,130 --> 00:01:23,930 I have a growing research lab around the theme of network ecology and telemetry,

12 00:01:23,930 --> 00:01:31,250 and this focuses on my main research interests, which are predominately the ecology and conservation of shark species.

13 00:01:31,250 --> 00:01:41,920 So that is things like how they reside with inside and outside marine protected areas, the threats they face from commercial and illegal fisheries.

14 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,800 But another component in my research is also various different animal tracking

15 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,110 technologies and how we can use that to understand things about movement, ecology and behaviour.

16 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:56,360 And finally, the third strand of my research is into animal social network analysis as well.

17 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,980 So why animals aggregate predominately in the marine environment for my focus.

18 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:07,730 What this means for population dynamics and how do we quantify social behaviour in fish at all.

19 00:02:07,730 --> 00:02:17,090 So this role really involves supervision of both PhD and masters students, as a research and pure research institute.

20 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:25,490 We do some degree of teaching associated with some of the other London universities whose masters courses are affiliated to us.

21 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:34,100 But it's predominantly my role is around data analysis. The writing of grant applications and papers, reviewing grant applications and papers,

22 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:40,520 as well as a big component, and then everyday meetings with students and colleagues.

23 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:47,420 For example, I sit on the Equality and Diversity Committee within the Institute of Zoology, and this is really about taking inward.

24 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:58,250 Look at how we as an organisation represent the diversity in society and how we can improve diversity across academia in general.

25 00:02:58,250 --> 00:03:03,830 In addition to that, we have a lot of responsibilities around communication and outreach activities.

26 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:13,440 So I spend quite a lot of time trying to present my work to people, be on the scientific community and whether that be at conferences,

27 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:24,200 non-specific scientific conferences and events for the public evening symposia which we put on for public at the Zoological Society of London.

28 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,660 And then extra curricular activities include things like editorial responsibilities.

29 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:37,190 So I am I've been an assistant editor at the Journal of Fish Biology for the last six years.

30 00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:43,340 So that also takes up quite a bit of my time as well. So what's it like working in a pure research institute?

31 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:47,280 Is it similar or different to conducting research in academia?

32 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,170 And what's the what's your day to day work life like?

33 00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:55,610 I really enjoy working at ZSL or the Zoological Society of London.

34 00:03:55,610 --> 00:04:01,560 It's a pure research institute. And as an organisation, it is absolutely steeped in history.

35 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,730 It's nearing its two hundredth anniversary. Charles Darwin was a former fellow of that as well.

36 00:04:07,730 --> 00:04:17,060 And Sir David Attenborough is the current patron. So the place is really inspirational in terms of some of the research that's come out of there.

37 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:22,760 There's a real diversity of research, a diversity of methods and study systems as well.

38 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,540 So you never really know what you're going to be discussing when you meet people in the tea room.

39 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:35,150 There's so many different study systems from terrestrial animals to aquatic, from various tracking to genetics.

40 00:04:35,150 --> 00:04:40,250 So there's a real mixed bag of people working there. And that's what I like about the place.

41 00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:46,520 In many ways it's similar to university, but without the pressure perhaps to conduct quite so much teaching,

42 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:52,100 we do contribute to master's courses from Imperial College, London, University College, London as well.

43 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:59,160 King's Royal Vetinary College and a number of other institutions. So I can do as much or as little teaching as I want,

44 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,230 but I experience the same pressure that you get at a university to bring in grant

45 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:09,560 money to justify our position to publish regularly in high impact publications.

46 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:18,140 I have an honorary position at UCL, which is one of our main collaborative organisations,

47 00:05:18,140 --> 00:05:24,250 and there's broad collaboration across all of the London and London groups and London universities.

48 00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:32,240 And this includes the London doctoral training programme from which we have a kind of annual cohort of these students as well available to us.

49 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:41,210 My average day, I would say, is desk based predominantly, and it will include student meetings, some analysis, a bit of writing,

50 00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:46,970 quite a lot of internal meetings as well, and also external international collaborative meetings,

51 00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:53,030 which can run out of hours as well, depending on who is speaking to.

52 00:05:53,030 --> 00:05:57,070 Then on the flip side of that, I have regular fieldwork each year as well.

53 00:05:57,070 --> 00:06:03,070 So I have two main field sites currently up and running where we track sharks using acoustic telemetry.

54 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:08,560 My main field site is in the British Indian Ocean territory, one of the largest marine protected areas in the world.

55 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:15,610 And here, the groups tracking reef sharks to understand the role that the marine protected area has on trying to conserve these species,

56 00:06:15,610 --> 00:06:20,520 which are still facing large threats from illegal fishing activity.

57 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,890 The second field site is in northern Lanzarote in the Canary Islands,

58 00:06:23,890 --> 00:06:28,150 and this is tracking critically endangered angel sharks, about which we know very little.

59 00:06:28,150 --> 00:06:31,180 So we're using technologies there to try to understand some of their ecology,

60 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:38,590 some of their daily seasonal and annual variation and movements and distribution.

61 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:47,950 And this usually involves being out on the water from the vessel based research for anywhere up to three weeks at a time, at least once a year.

62 00:06:47,950 --> 00:06:53,080 Sometimes there are more trips and I also attend both national and international conferences as well.

63 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:59,500 So that's another component of my time. But that's a broad overview of what I tend to do on a day to day basis.

64 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:03,250 So what skills and experiences from your research degree?

65 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,910 Do you use specifically in your current role for key skills?

66 00:07:06,910 --> 00:07:16,390 My PhD, I would argue that I really relied on some of the project management experience I got during my PhD

67 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:26,590 This included things like budgeting, time allocation, delegation of responsibilities and roles to research assistants and to students as well.

68 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:33,340 But also the importance of reading and reading a lot. Reading around the subject, reading as broadly as possible.

69 00:07:33,340 --> 00:07:39,430 Things like practising presentations as well. I used to be terrified of giving presentations.

70 00:07:39,430 --> 00:07:41,380 The more I do, the easier I find it.

71 00:07:41,380 --> 00:07:52,390 So certainly practising that more and more was a skill that I began to acquire during my PhD, which is still really important today.

72 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:57,280 Also, I would say a willingness to kind of see where a conversation or a train of thought can lead you as well.

73 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:04,600 So I'm very fortunate at the moment in my role that I'm able to kind of explore different avenues of research.

74 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:12,880 But one of the great things about a pure research institute is that you can have a conversation that can set you off on a whole new direction.

75 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,870 It could be bring in whole new techniques, a whole new set of collaborators,

76 00:08:16,870 --> 00:08:23,270 and it can really set start your day or your week or your year off in a very exciting direction.

77 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:28,450 And the only other thing I would say about what I learnt from my PhD was the importance of listening to people,

78 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:33,470 taking onboard advice and learning the kind of better habits of people I admired,

79 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:44,710 but also learning from bad habits of others and generally just trying to treat people in the way that I enjoyed being treated as a student myself.

80 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:48,610 I learnt a lot from my supervisors and I learnt a lot from the people I interacted with.

81 00:08:48,610 --> 00:08:53,980 During my PhD and I've really made a conscious effort to try and take some of those good

82 00:08:53,980 --> 00:09:00,190 components and repeat them and pass them on to students that I now supervise as well.

83 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:04,630 Are there any additional activities or extracurricular projects you would advise research

84 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:09,160 degree students to get involved in to help make them more employable extracurricular activities?

85 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,450 As I said, I. I have my editorial roles for various different journals.

86 00:09:13,450 --> 00:09:19,660 These have been extremely rewarding for me as I've learnt a lot about the peer review system and about research in general.

87 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:25,420 It's meant I've had to interact with a lot of different researchers worldwide, both for requests for review,

88 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:30,020 but also managing the comments as they come in and then dealing with the authors

89 00:09:30,020 --> 00:09:37,270 and and being the Go-Between between the authors and reviewers as well. That's been a really rewarding and interesting experience.

90 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:43,720 So I would highly recommend if those opportunities come up. Taking those organising events is certainly a very useful thing to do.

91 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,960 Again, this comes down to project management.

92 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:56,050 And I helped organise a behaviour meeting while I was at Exeter during my PhD and that was a very useful thing to do.

93 00:09:56,050 --> 00:10:03,770 I currently run a twice monthly bio logging journal club where we discuss and critique new papers in the field of animal tracking.

94 00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:11,800 And this really, again, encourages people to read. It stimulates discussion amongst people of a like mind.

95 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,580 It enables you to keep on top of the literature and learn new new things.

96 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:23,110 But just just having to run that really forced me to to bring the group together

97 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:29,590 and to meet on a regular basis and to discuss things on a regular basis as well.

98 00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:35,770 I would advise offering yourself out to help out on committees that, you know,

99 00:10:35,770 --> 00:10:41,610 really try and have an impact on the environment you work in and try and really be

100 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:45,940 be an individual that pushes forward better practises within that institution,

101 00:10:45,940 --> 00:10:53,070 an organisation that can always be improvements made both at an institutional level, but also at a wider.

102 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:57,090 Academic level as well. So I would say use your voice.

103 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:01,950 Everyone, everyone has an important thing. Everyone has important things to say.

104 00:11:01,950 --> 00:11:06,490 And I would use that to try and improve the surroundings that you're in.

105 00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:17,280 And the field as a whole. And finally, what advice would you give to students who are thinking about applying for roles in pure research institutes?

106 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:24,270 The advice that I always give isn't necessarily specific to a research institute at all, but it is useful, I think.

107 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:29,730 And that is learn a skill, whether that be coding or learning a programming language.

108 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:37,800 Genetic techniques and mathematical processes or all things from physics, anything like that.

109 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:45,150 And bring that skill to the organisation that you want to work at or the study system that you want to work on, particularly in ecology and zoology.

110 00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:55,020 We are crying out for interdisciplinary research techniques, people to bring in research from other areas.

111 00:11:55,020 --> 00:12:00,090 I mean, science is becoming an increasingly interdisciplinary thing to do.

112 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:06,720 So thinking outside the box is a must. And outside skills often pave the way for new, very novel research.

113 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,730 And these can be be the difference in, you know, really progressing the field.

114 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:15,210 So I would I would definitely recommend trying to learn a skill as opposed to being

115 00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:21,540 focussed on a particular system or a particular study organism or something like that.

116 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:26,310 The second and final piece of advice I would also give is to be really persistent as well.

117 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:32,820 There is no tried and tested method from going from your PhD  to the job you finally want to end up in.

118 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:41,520 It took me many years to get to the point where I was being paid to lead my own research and often just a foot in the door is really important.

119 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:49,380 So I actually took up a six month unpaid internship after my PhD, which wasn't wasn't ideal.

120 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:54,220 And it's also not feasible for everyone as well. But it was really important.

121 00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:57,720 I was able to get a foot in the door at the Zoological Society of London.

122 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:05,580 And since then I've stayed and I've slowly developed my own strands of research, my own research group over time.

123 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:10,170 So people take different routes. There is no right way of getting from A to B.

124 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:19,050 And it's important to remember that, but it will take a lot of persistence. So stick at it if you're keen and the rewards will come.

125 00:13:19,050 --> 00:13:27,010 Thank you so much, David, for taking the time to share your thoughts and your experience.

126 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:42,765 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.