Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager is interviewed by Dr. Charlotte Kelstead, University of Exeter Doctoral graduate about her career in research and Higher Education.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Transcription

1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:23,790 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College.

2 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:29,550 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, I'm your host, Kelly Preece for this episode.

3 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:34,800 We're going to be doing things a little bit differently. I'm delighted to be joined by Dr Charlotte Kelstead.

4 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:41,310 Charlotte graduated with her Ph.D. in history from the University of Exeter recently and is

5 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:46,740 currently working as an event coordinator at the European Centre for Palestine Studies.

6 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:49,200 But I'm not going to be talking to Charlotte about her career.

7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:57,690 In fact, we're switching around and instead Charlotte's going to be interviewing me about my career in research and higher education.

8 00:00:57,690 --> 00:01:02,550 So take it away, Charlotte. OK, fantastic so

9 00:01:02,550 --> 00:01:10,140 I have lots of questions for you because I feel like you've been part of my experience at Exeter for quite a long time.

10 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:19,890 So I remember when I was when I was back doing an undergraduate doing the Exeter The X Factor introductory thing about seven years ago.

11 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:23,370 I remember you being there and having a wonderful personality and brightening up,

12 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:31,170 brightening up the end of the day when we were all starting to flag a bit. So I'm just really interested to hear all about your career,

13 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:40,080 especially because I've just submitted my corrections and I'm now starting to think about careers beyond academia and within academia.

14 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:46,110 And I'm just really interested to hear today about how your career has progressed, things that you've learnt along the way.

15 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:51,330 Any advice you might have and how it's all come together to be where you are now.

16 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:56,320 So perhaps you could start by just giving us a bit of background on your career.

17 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:05,220 So how you got to where you are now? Yes, so am I.

18 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:16,950 I always say, like my, my career has been incredibly eclectic in every possible way, so I actually started working professionally when I was 14, I.

19 00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:22,080 So I was a theatre kid in all of its stereotypes.

20 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,330 And I was a dancer and an actor and a singer.

21 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:31,560 And so I was in the the youth company actually at the Northcott Theatre on the University of Exeter campus when I was a teenager.

22 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,570 And so I was working all through secondary school and then.

23 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:43,160 Decided kind of had a decision to make between going to stage school and going to university, I was always quite academic,

24 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:52,720 so I thought I'd go down the university route, but I did a degree in dance and theatre, perhaps unsurprisingly.

25 00:02:52,720 --> 00:03:02,290 And I always say, look, that within about a week of starting my undergraduate degree, I met a Ph.D. student who I just actually,

26 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:10,070 I think just passed his viva called Martin Hargreaves, who was one of our what at Exeter would be a PTA,

27 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:15,100 I guess, but he was our seminal teacher and one of our modules and.

28 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:23,260 He was great, you know, made a really great impression on me, but also he talked to us about his Ph.D. and about his research.

29 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:29,920 And I had this kind of moment of of clarity, you know, like clouds parting kind of aha.

30 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,840 Where I went. Oh, so this this you know, this discipline, this art that I love,

31 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,630 I can actually combine that with kind of my love of learning and my love of knowledge.

32 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:47,980 And I could become a researcher and I could become an academic. And even though I was going to university to do a degree in in that subject,

33 00:03:47,980 --> 00:03:53,380 it hadn't occurred to me that that was even a job that somebody could have say.

34 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:54,460 Right, right.

35 00:03:54,460 --> 00:04:01,720 From that beginning point in my undergraduate degree, I was like, right, I want to be an academic, wanted do a PhD, want to teach at university.

36 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:10,600 That was kind of so I made that decision really early on. And I'm kind of I'm quite a quite stubborn and relentless.

37 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,880 So, you know, once I make a decision to stick to it. So, you know, I I did my undergraduate degree.

38 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,650 I did a research master's, and then I got a post at the University of Leeds,

39 00:04:20,650 --> 00:04:28,180 which was to do my PhD part time and to be a member of academic staff in the department part time.

40 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:34,710 They called it a research associate and and.

41 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:38,520 And yeah, and that's how I that's how I became an academic, really.

42 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:45,110 And so I did that for six years. And during those six years, I.

43 00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:52,460 Did a myriad of things, I ended up leading undergraduate degree programmes and developing master's programmes and moving institutions,

44 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:57,680 but the one thing I didn't do in that period is complete my Ph.D.

45 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,750 So I. Really struggled. And with.

46 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:17,430 Work life balance and mental health and wellbeing, and worked far more than a 1.0 on kind of 0.5 research, 0.5 teaching,

47 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:31,980 and made myself very poorly and as a result, decided to withdraw from the PhD and concentrate on on on my teaching and.

48 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:41,560 And. That's sort of over time, I kind of I think I naively thought if I kind of let the structure and the time pressures of the PhD go

49 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,940 it might alleviate a bit. But it didn't because there's a cultural issue in He but  there's also a me issue in this.

50 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:56,740 I am a perfectionist. I am an overworker and I'm not very good at work life balance.

51 00:05:56,740 --> 00:06:03,320 And so I. Ended up in that position again once I moved to the University of Northampton, I did the same thing.

52 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:13,370 I was on a four day week lectureship and I was working. Six, if we're being conservative days a week, you know, eight in the morning till eight,

53 00:06:13,370 --> 00:06:20,960 nine at night, and I did the same thing, I worked myself until I was ill and completely burnt out.

54 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,060 And it was that second time that I had to take a step back and go, something's not working here.

55 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:29,570 I love teaching. I love research. I love working with students.

56 00:06:29,570 --> 00:06:34,940 Love, love working in HE. But something about this just does not work for me.

57 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:41,390 And it brings out qualities in me that make me unwell, you know, those kind of perfectionism and that sort of stuff.

58 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:51,020 So I. Oh. Sorry, cats just appeared and she wants to get involved I yeah,

59 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:55,900 so I kind of I reached this kind of crisis point and I always say, like, these things aren't just professional.

60 00:06:55,900 --> 00:07:04,450 These are personal as well as a part of that crisis point was that my my grandmother, who pretty much raised me, passed away unexpectedly.

61 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:12,430 And I was, you know, on the other side of the country marking undergraduate essays when I could have been with her.

62 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:19,620 And I think the whole thing kind of came to a head and I realised that I was doing the wrong thing.

63 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:28,510 And so I started to kind of have an existential crisis of, you know, I said when we started like I wanted to do this since I was 18.

64 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:34,810 I've never tried to get any experience and anything else, I'd had a part time job in a bookshop which was wonderful and gave me all sorts of skills,

65 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:38,440 but nonetheless, you know, what the hell was I going to go on to?

66 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,840 And people said, well, why don't you retrain as a secondary school teacher? I didn't want to retrain.

67 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,490 I'm not a fan of teenagers, certainly not en masse individually.

68 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,490 They're fine. And so there was all sorts of things and I just sort of signed up for lots of job alerts jobs.ac.uk

69 00:07:55,490 --> 00:08:00,250 all of that sort of stuff. And up comes this job at the University of Exeter.

70 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:04,870 And I knew I wanted to move back to Devon cause it's where I'm from for researcher development.

71 00:08:04,870 --> 00:08:11,680 Programme manager for PGRs was what it was called at the time to run training and development for PhD students.

72 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:21,940 And I thought, well, given my experience as an academic, given my experience as a Ph.D. student, you know, I feel like I've got.

73 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:28,450 I've got some credibility here and I've got some some interest in kind of making sure that other people haven't gone,

74 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:32,080 don't go through what I went through and that can learn from my mistakes.

75 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,410 And also, I got lots of teaching experience and all of that sort stuff.

76 00:08:35,410 --> 00:08:43,320 So I applied. And six years later and.

77 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:49,600 Here I am, I'm I'm still here and, you know.

78 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:57,130 A wonderful thing of serendipity where it was it was really a kind of shot in the dark, this job for me,

79 00:08:57,130 --> 00:09:03,250 I wasn't sure if I would like it, and I wasn't really sure if I was cut to be in professional services,

80 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:14,170 if I would be sorry, if I would encounter the same problems that I'd had as an academic with work life balance and kind of boundaries and also stuff.

81 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:18,100 But actually, it was the step removed that I needed. I still get to do all the things I love.

82 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,500 I still do teaching. I still do research.

83 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:27,850 But it's it's really been a way for me to channel what in some ways was quite a negative experience of being an academic

84 00:09:27,850 --> 00:09:36,140 into something really positive and to feel like I'm I'm kind of making a contribution to the sector or the system,

85 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:43,990 because whilst I recognise that a lot of my issues were were to do with my personality and who I am, also, you know,

86 00:09:43,990 --> 00:09:49,780 there are cultural issues in the sector to do with overwork and all those sorts of stuff and all those sorts of things.

87 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:55,630 And hopefully in the role that I'm in, I can do a little bit to help take that pressure off.

88 00:09:55,630 --> 00:10:04,060 New students coming in. And how did you find the shift when you moved away from the PhD into the professional services community?

89 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:09,280 Was that what you expected or were there aspects of that that you hadn't anticipated?

90 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:18,700 And how did you feel how did you feel that that community received you as someone who hadn't finished your PhD for various reasons?

91 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:25,960 How did you find that sort of introduction to that new area in terms of the transition?

92 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,550 I think I was worried about that kind of concept of failure, and I would be perceived as some form of failure.

93 00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:40,300 And I think inevitably for some people, perhaps some academics, that that is how they will see it.

94 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:47,140 Because, you know, academia is is is the goal. And certainly, you know, I guess I felt like that.

95 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:51,910 But for the majority of people, that's just not the case.

96 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:57,730 And I was worried about my credibility in terms of not having the PhD.

97 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:03,130 But again, actually, you know, I remember a conversation with one academic where.

98 00:11:03,130 --> 00:11:08,290 They found out I didn't have a Ph.D. and they seemed a bit kind of like a little bit taken aback,

99 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:16,480 and then they realised that I had spent five years teaching as a lecturer at Russell Group university.

100 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,020 And all of a sudden that, you know, that was completely, you know,

101 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:27,310 it was it became completely irrelevant that I didn't have the PhD because actually I have the experience of being an academic.

102 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:28,450 I've been a researcher.

103 00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:36,560 I may not have the letters before my name, but I have all of the kind of the credentials and the credibility through experience.

104 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:43,090 And that's what people value. And I find working with academic colleagues that it's really,

105 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:49,570 really valuable to be able to kind of empathise and really understand because I've been there, you know, I know what it's like.

106 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:54,490 And also, you know, in terms of professional services.

107 00:11:54,490 --> 00:12:04,600 I think what I didn't know before I went into professional services is how many people with PhDs are in professional services,

108 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,640 particularly in research services, in the doctoral college and my.

109 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:19,530 I mean, my to my my sort of equivalent at the when I started and my boss, both PhDs, that's still the case.

110 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:25,100 You know, I work with colleagues in kind of research funding and grants and also stuff.

111 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:30,900 So many with PhDs. I'm currently working on a project with the Climate Emergency Sustainability Team.

112 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:35,080 The head of that team also has a PhD, and these are all professional services.

113 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,130 So actually kind of you know, they're not everybody,

114 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:48,570 but so many people in that kind of supporting function of the university have made that transition from academia and or some form of research.

115 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:55,330 And so I felt that to be a really welcoming environment because it felt like.

116 00:12:55,330 --> 00:13:01,120 It felt like the right decision, if you see what I mean, I kind of stepped in and went, oh, this is this is the right thing.

117 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,600 This feels like my space and my people in a way.

118 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,840 And that must have been really important after.

119 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Going through a difficult period during the PhD to then changed career, which must have been incredibly intimidating,

120 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,960 to then move into that environment and feel welcome and know it's the right place for you.

121 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:29,360 That must have been really reassuring. And I think that that experience that you had, although of course, was awful at the time,

122 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:37,370 it does mean that you've been able to contribute more than someone who had a happy, easy experience.

123 00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:44,500 I agree that, you know what support a PhD student needs at different times.

124 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:50,960 And I think there's a lot of value in that. I think I think there's a lot of merit in the fact that, you know,

125 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:59,460 what students need and I'm interested in the researcher development programme that you've spearheaded at Exeter.

126 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:06,230 And was that something that you very quickly, once you switched, made the shift in your career?

127 00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:13,460 Did you know that that's what you wanted to put together or did that come together slowly after years of seeing the gaps,

128 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:19,100 once you were actually on the on the inside of some of the training side of things?

129 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:28,130 A combination, really. So I, I mean, I inherited I inherited a programme and it's it's changed quite significantly since I took it over.

130 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:36,170 But so there was the kind of there was the basis. So coming in as somebody knew, I had you know, I had a really good starting point.

131 00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:42,890 And then, you know, I had I had ideas, you know, right at the beginning of things I wanted to do.

132 00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:48,530 And, you know, we introduced this quickly in terms of wellbeing workshops and various different things,

133 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:52,550 all of which have evolved hugely since their introduction.

134 00:14:52,550 --> 00:15:03,170 But so there were some kind of immediate things and also moving more content online, which, you know, has turned out to work in our favour.

135 00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:09,620 But so there was some little kind of immediate things. But the rest has really been evolving.

136 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:15,890 And it wasn't until about three years ago that we kind of started the academic year and I went,

137 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:22,970 yeah, this is a this felt like a completely new programme. This felt like a completely new entity because it had been through sort of so many

138 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:29,960 iterations of change and because the experience of being a researcher and like you said,

139 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:40,340 I think having a negative experience, like I do believe that makes me uniquely placed to understand what people really need,

140 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:46,820 but also kind of being part of the landscape. And, you know, it's an area of practise and of scholarship in and of itself.

141 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:52,310 You know, there's a journal of researcher development and, you know.

142 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:57,980 It's its own kind of sector and its own research area and educational and career practise,

143 00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:03,890 and so, you know, you need to be kind of inducted into that to really understand.

144 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:10,450 And also, you know. Getting to know the university and getting to know the students, and that's something that I,

145 00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:17,370 I, I place a lot of importance of on is actually engaging with our academics,

146 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:29,480 meaningfully having difficult conversations and also, you know, engaging with our students and talking to them and being part of their community and.

147 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,070 Again, being open to having.

148 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:42,380 Difficult and challenging conversations, because I think sometimes.

149 00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:52,110 There's. I think sometimes people have a lot of things that they might want to say that's feedback or critique about things that they experience,

150 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:59,100 but they don't want to because they don't want to be perceived as annoying or argumentative or that, you know,

151 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:04,620 or they think actually the person doing this is really nice and didn't want to upset them or don't want to cause problems.

152 00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:11,970 And I'm always like, actually, if you don't tell me what the problems are, I can't offer I can't find the solutions.

153 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,840 And I'm always kind of like, tell me what's not working on the programme.

154 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,350 I don't take it personally. I need I need to know.

155 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:23,580 Because if I don't if you don't tell me what's wrong, then I'll assume everything's perfect.

156 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:28,020 I mean, I won't because that's not who I am. But I'll assume everything's fine and I'll continue as I am.

157 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:32,150 And actually that that doesn't achieve anything for any of us.

158 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:39,800 So so I think there's a kind of. An openness that's been really important to kind of hearing what hasn't worked for

159 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:47,000 people in the past and what still doesn't work for people and and how we might.

160 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:59,300 Bring about more change. So I see it is a constantly evolving entity and also I can't I'm you know, we've interacted in various ways.

161 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:05,270 You will know I'm not very good at sitting still or letting things sit as they are.

162 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:13,220 Just because something works doesn't mean it can't be made better. And so, yeah, I'm never the kind of person that's going to go, oh, that's done.

163 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:18,660 Now I'm going to I'm going to sit back and relax. I'm always going to find.

164 00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:25,350 Find things that need addressing and improving, you are a true perfectionist, I think.

165 00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:31,980 Yeah, I'm just screaming perfectionist to me. But actually I remember coming along to one of the sessions,

166 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:37,530 I think it was in that year that you're talking about where the programme started to feel quite different.

167 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:41,760 I think it was twenty twenty eighteen or. Yeah, yeah.

168 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,520 And you ran a session on perfection, perfectionism.

169 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:52,320 And for me it was really useful because I was briefly I was at that point writing my literature review and I was finding that there was,

170 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,070 as you know, from your PhD, there's so much literature out there and you think, gosh,

171 00:18:56,070 --> 00:19:02,620 I've got to have everything in my literature review and those perfectionist tendencies come out and you think you've got to write everything,

172 00:19:02,620 --> 00:19:06,970 but you just need to use the most relevant things to situate your work.

173 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:12,390 And I remember finding that such a useful session and I think so many people did.

174 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,980 But it's also for you. You were so friendly at that session.

175 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:26,100 But then it's difficult for you, I assume, to separate what you're doing and getting feedback on your sessions and from you

176 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,670 as a person because you have put so much effort into creating the programme.

177 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:37,230 So do you find that difficult taking on, although you're super encouraging about receiving feedback, do you find that difficult?

178 00:19:37,230 --> 00:19:45,570 Have you had to become more resilient as more students do the programme and might provide feedback which might be constructive,

179 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:49,680 but nevertheless still might be suggesting you change the way you do things?

180 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,530 Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. And I have had to.

181 00:19:55,530 --> 00:20:03,060 Develop a thicker skin, I mean, in some cases, we you know, in some ways we are used to that as an academic, you have to do that.

182 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:11,700 You know, I remember getting my first peer review back and which was not the most fun I've ever had and and various different things,

183 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,300 you know, where we're used to being challenged and critiqued in that way.

184 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:23,460 I think very similarly to with, you know, your research, you know, it's something that you're passionate about and you put your heart and soul into.

185 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:31,940 So when. When there is criticism or when something's not working, it's it's hard to hear, but I.

186 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:35,130 I do try and I try as much as I can separate things out.

187 00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:44,960 I always try to distance myself from any feedback I get first and go, okay, just take a step back and actually just always see it as right.

188 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,150 How how can I use this? What can I do with that? So that it doesn't just sit as an email that somebody has sent me a comment that

189 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:58,850 somebody makes to me at the end of the actual day actually becomes something,

190 00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:05,010 something changes as a result of it. And then that that feels like an in an empowering way to kind of deal with it.

191 00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:06,080 And also, you know,

192 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:17,180 apart from the odd case where people are in circumstances where they're particularly stressed or frustrated or overwhelmed or any of the above,

193 00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:27,590 where they might not articulate feedback in the kindest of ways, you know, that that's the exception rather than the rule most of the time,

194 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:32,240 particularly because I approach it on a kind of like I want to know what's wrong.

195 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,690 People are honest, but they're fair. And and they don't kind of it doesn't come from a place of attack.

196 00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:46,850 It really comes from a place of wanting to enter into a dialogue and to and to make things better as well.

197 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:51,620 And so that feels like a completely different conversation to have with somebody, because, you know,

198 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:59,600 I always get when people send feedback I get emails going, this is not about you or I know it's not your fault or something like that.

199 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:08,000 And actually, I don't need that because that's not necessary, because the tone and the way that they communicate, it's it's very supportive.

200 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:15,230 And I think, you know, that's the PGR community is incredibly vocal in so many ways, which is brilliant.

201 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:21,800 But actually, like in terms of, you know, being kind of embedded within it is so supportive.

202 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,380 So if there was someone listening to this conversation and they were feeling inspired by the way,

203 00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:36,570 you're talking about how we can change the support that is available for academics and PhD students,

204 00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:45,560 do you have advice on that shift from academia, as in being a PhD student into professional services?

205 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:54,440 Do you feel that you learnt, although it sounds like you had a relatively smooth transition into that aspect of your career,

206 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:02,930 do you have advice on what you might have done differently or how or perhaps even as well how someone can go about looking into these opportunities?

207 00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:11,390 Because I think that speaking as a PhD student at the moment, it can be difficult to know what's out there in the world of professional services.

208 00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:15,530 We tend to take it for granted. We get emails and we think that's a fact that looks like a really useful event.

209 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:20,390 I'll sign onto to that. But we don't know who's working behind the scenes and who does what.

210 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:24,980 So do you have advice on how you navigated that shift, what you might have done differently,

211 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:32,660 but also how we can as PhD students, how we can access those jobs or start to learn about what's out there?

212 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:40,310 Yeah, I think one of the reasons why the shift was quite easy for me is that so in Exeter my role is professional services in other institutions,

213 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:48,710 they sometimes call my role academic related, so much like the academic development team who run LTHE and all that sort of stuff.

214 00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:54,890 You know, we are roles are not purely professional services that they're very hybrid.

215 00:23:54,890 --> 00:24:03,110 And that's why what attracted me to it, because it allowed me to continue teaching and engaging with research and scholarship,

216 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:10,500 but in a slightly different kind of environment and context. So I think that's one of the reasons why.

217 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:22,580 It was a slightly easier. Transition for me, because it felt more familiar, I guess, to what I was already doing in terms of.

218 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:34,310 What I might have done differently. I think probably ties into the next thing, actually, which is about kind of how you find out about opportunities.

219 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:39,480 So, I mean, I just signed up for every I knew I wanted to move back to Devon.

220 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,460 I wasn't really sure what I was kind of qualified to do anything but work in higher education.

221 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:52,600 So I just signed up to. All the job alerts I could for, anything relating to higher education,

222 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,150 and I was getting literally everything I was getting like like rugby coach adverts to

223 00:24:58,150 --> 00:25:05,900 the university and also I wasn't filtering because I was aware that I knew so little.

224 00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:12,720 And. So part of it is a huge part of it is awareness raising, and I wish I'd done this earlier.

225 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:23,050 I wish I'd engaged with. Professional services earlier, and part of that is just kind of opening your eyes to the work that's going on around you.

226 00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:31,900 So, you know, if you're on a funded research grant or a DTP, there will be people supporting you.

227 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:37,240 There'll be some you know, if you're on a doctoral training partnership, there will be someone running the doctoral training partnership.

228 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:44,890 Quite possibly. That person has a Ph.D. And you know, if you're applying for grants as a postdoc,

229 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:48,370 there will be someone supporting you in research services that will be called.

230 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:52,570 They will be called a research development manager, not researcher development manager.

231 00:25:52,570 --> 00:25:59,170 It's cause of much confusion. But.

232 00:25:59,170 --> 00:26:03,820 You know, quite a lot of my colleagues, who do that role have PhDs,

233 00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:16,620 it's a very different role because it's much more advisory and it's much more project management and focussed, but actually.

234 00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:28,020 You'd be surprised how applicable everything you learn as a Ph.D. student is, and even though it may feel like chalk and cheese,

235 00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:33,240 actually more often than not it's the same thing, but in a different language.

236 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,240 And I talk about this. So my partner is an academic and we talk about this a lot and he gets frustrated

237 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,890 when I talk about things like and when I talk about in management speak and,

238 00:26:43,890 --> 00:26:48,570 you know, stakeholder analysis and like and market driven.

239 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:53,190 And I'm just trying to think of all the other kind of buzzwords and.

240 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:57,930 And I always say, but, you know, I talk about stakeholder mapping and stakeholder management,

241 00:26:57,930 --> 00:27:03,690 all I mean is talking to and engaging with students and academics and all the

242 00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:08,650 people that are relevant to the delivery of the researcher development programme.

243 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:17,230 It's not anything different. It's just. The different language, I have another question for you, which is a difficult question,

244 00:27:17,230 --> 00:27:23,980 but you run your various sessions on perfectionism or resilience, et cetera,

245 00:27:23,980 --> 00:27:29,360 and I was wondering to what extent you feel that you take the advice, the advice that you give,

246 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:37,170 do you take on board yourself or do you just things like that only really resonate with you when you hear them from someone else?

247 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:45,480 Oh, that's a really good question, because one of the also one of the things that's been really important to me as a

248 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:52,440 teacher has been what what is referred to in the literature as authentic teaching.

249 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:59,430 So it's about bringing yourself into the classroom. And it's not about kind of, you know, exposing your deepest, darkest secrets.

250 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:08,490 It's about being open and honest, sharing your experience of what you're talking about, sharing your failures or those sorts of things.

251 00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:14,400 And so, you know, particularly where I haven't been very good at things like perfectionism, work, life balance.

252 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:20,100 I try and bring that in sessions because I feel it humanises, you know what I'm saying?

253 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:27,690 It grounds it in real world experience. But also, you know.

254 00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:36,230 Being honest about the fact that I know so I know all of the kind of things that I taught people about literature review,

255 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:37,500 so I talk about literature reviews,

256 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:48,000 I talk about working habits, I talk about not checking email about, you know, dedicating time, kind of environment and all those sorts of things.

257 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,360 I know that they're true nine times out of ten. I don't necessarily do them, even though I know that they're true.

258 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,870 I do sometimes do them. But it's you know, I don't always take my own advice.

259 00:29:00,870 --> 00:29:08,910 And but that's a learning process. And I think being honest about that and saying, you know, I know the way that I'm supposed to do things.

260 00:29:08,910 --> 00:29:13,680 I know that I'm supposed to take regular breaks and I'm supposed to get away from my desk at lunch.

261 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,250 But, you know, I don't always do it. That's part of that process.

262 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:21,570 As part of that being open and humanising, it is saying, look, nobody's perfect.

263 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:28,590 Just because I've told you you need like research shows you need to take a break every five every 25 minutes for five minutes.

264 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:33,330 Doesn't mean when you leave this room or leave this team's call or whatever.

265 00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:40,170 that I expect that you're going to do that from now on or that you should expect that of yourself.

266 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:46,440 Yeah, absolutely. I know that when I have been to training sessions and the person delivering the training,

267 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,600 you might get the impression that they do all these things perfectly and it sort of creates a bit of a divide between you and them.

268 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,660 And you just think, well, I'm not like you, so I can't achieve any of this.

269 00:29:54,660 --> 00:30:00,390 Whereas when they say, actually, I'm not so good at this either, you think, OK, OK, that's that's that's normal.

270 00:30:00,390 --> 00:30:05,220 That's human. Maybe I can try and make a few of these changes that you're suggesting.

271 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,940 I think it's really important. I really am really passionate about it.

272 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:13,380 And it's it's also one of the reasons that one of the developments in the past couple of years,

273 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:18,990 we've got postgraduate teaching assistants delivering on the researcher development programme.

274 00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:23,460 So some of those sessions like literature reviews and various different things they can deliver.

275 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:30,810 And I think that that's really important as well, because it has it has a currency and they can share their experiences in a way that

276 00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:36,420 really makes it it makes it really real and really tangible for the people attending.

277 00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:38,800 And that's really important to me.

278 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:45,310 We learn so much more when it's someone who can who we can relate to, and there's something quite fundamental about that.

279 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:49,630 And with all these types of training, which again comes back to your position,

280 00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:54,850 in your experience of your Ph.D. and why you are creating such wonderful things because of your

281 00:30:54,850 --> 00:31:01,520 experiences and how things that might during your PhD might have felt that it was the end of the world.

282 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,750 And now looking back, you're able to take that long view and see that actually you've contributed a

282 00:31:01,520 -->281 00:30:54,850 -->280 00:30:49,630 -->279 00:30:45,310 -->278 00:30:38,800 -->277 00:30:36,420 -->276 00:30:30,810 -->275 00:30:23,460 -->274 00:30:18,990 -->273 00:30:13,380 -->272 00:30:08,940 -->271 00:30:05,220 -->270 00:30:00,390 -->269 00:29:54,660 -->268 00:29:51,600 -->267 00:29:46,440 -->266 00:29:40,170 -->265 00:29:33,330 -->264 00:29:28,590 -->263 00:29:21,570 -->262 00:29:17,250 -->261 00:29:13,680 -->260 00:29:08,910 -->259 00:29:00,870 -->258 00:28:54,360 -->257 00:28:48,000 -->256 00:28:37,500 -->255 00:28:36,230 -->254 00:28:27,690 -->253 00:28:20,100 -->252 00:28:14,400 -->251 00:28:08,490 -->250 00:27:59,430 -->249 00:27:52,440 -->248 00:27:45,480 -->247 00:27:37,170 -->246 00:27:29,360 -->245 00:27:23,980 -->244 00:27:17,230 -->243 00:27:08,650 -->242 00:27:03,690 -->241 00:26:57,930 -->240 00:26:53,190 -->239 00:26:48,570 -->238 00:26:43,890 -->237 00:26:39,240 -->236 00:26:33,240 -->235 00:26:28,020 -->234 00:26:16,620 -->233 00:26:03,820 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