Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks Dr. Katie Finning, who recently made the transition from a postdoc to a research role outside of academia.

In the podcast Kaite mentions the Civil Service Job site and the Glassdoor repository of interview questions.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,730 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter College.

2 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:32,340 Hi, it's Kelly Preece and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree, continuing our series on getting jobs during covid.

3 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:35,190 I'm really excited to be talking to Dr Katie Finning.

4 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:44,220 So Katie was up until recently a postdoc at the University of Exeter and has during the pandemic made the transition into a non-academic role.

5 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:49,680 So are you happy to introduce yourself? Sure. So I'm Katie Finning.

6 00:00:49,680 --> 00:01:01,540 I am. I'm currently working as a senior researcher at the Office for National Statistics, so I was in academia for about nine years before I left.

7 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,790 I'm originally joined not long after I finished my undergraduate degree, I took a job as a research assistant to university.

8 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:18,810 So I was working on a clinical trial of a behavioural therapy for adults with depression.

9 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:23,130 And I kind of worked on that project from start to finish when I joined.

10 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:27,070 And we were still kind of gaining all of our ethical approvals.

11 00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:33,870 And I stayed working in that job right up until the end where we published the results of the study.

12 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:43,530 So that was a really great experience because I kind of saw the whole research lifecycle from start to finish.

13 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:48,780 And in that job, my main job for most of that time was data collection and recruitment.

14 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:56,910 So that was great. I spent most of my job kind of going out and meeting people and interviewing them and talking to them about their experiences,

15 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:02,160 which was was a really interesting and fun job. And then I did my PhD.

16 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,510 I moved over to child mental health, so I was still at Exeter university.

17 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:13,230 So I'd always been kind of interested in mental health from a research perspective, but particularly child mental health.

18 00:02:13,230 --> 00:02:18,910 And a PhD opportunity came up just as my contract on that clinical trial was coming to an end.

19 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:27,150 So it was kind of perfect timing. It was in a team I was really keen to kind of make my way into and the topic was really interesting.

20 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:35,700 So it was advertised as a job rather than me kind of submitting my own PhD proposal.

21 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:39,090 And my PhD was kind of epidemiological.

22 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:51,150 So it looked at kind of patterns and trends in data, looking at the association between anxiety and depression in young people and school absenteeism.

23 00:02:51,150 --> 00:03:00,690 And so I used a variety of different research methods during my PhD, did a bit of systematic review, some quantitative work, some qualitative work.

24 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:02,520 So it was a really kind of nice,

25 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:10,410 well-rounded project that gave me experience and methods that I hadn't experienced when I was working as a research assistant.

26 00:03:10,410 --> 00:03:16,530 And I think it kind of the whole time that I was in academia, there were things I loved.

27 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:21,000 I loved working on research. I loved working with data.

28 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,140 And but I always kind of questioned whether academia was the right place for me.

29 00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:30,210 And the only reason really that I think I stayed for so long was just because the opportunities were there.

30 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:38,880 And so I had no real reason to leave. I had it funded post for about five years, and then I had a great PhD opportunity for three years.

31 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:48,930 And then I did a couple of years of postdoc work as well. And it was, to be honest, by complete luck that I was contacted about my job now.

32 00:03:48,930 --> 00:03:55,740 So towards the end of my PhD, I was starting to get a little bit anxious about kind of what was going to come next,

33 00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:02,670 whether I'd be able to get any funding for postdoc work. And I started quite seriously looking at jobs outside of academia.

34 00:04:02,670 --> 00:04:11,520 But there was never really anything that I saw that I felt was a good enough match for my skills and for what I was interested in.

35 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,610 And and so I signed up for kind of hundreds of job alerts every week.

36 00:04:15,610 --> 00:04:20,100 I get all these alerts about various different jobs and I'd scroll through them and think,

37 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:24,480 oh, I just don't I just don't think there are any jobs outside of academia for me.

38 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,010 And kind of felt a little bit hopeless at that point because I was worried about my job security in academia,

39 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:34,110 but also didn't feel like there was anything outside of academia for me.

40 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:38,280 And so then I applied for some postdoc funding and was awarded postdoc funding.

41 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:43,920 It was about a year and a half of funding. So I really stopped looking for alternative jobs.

42 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,750 And then by complete coincidence,

43 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:54,990 I was contacted by someone at the Office for National Statistics on LinkedIn about a job that they had and kind of encouraging me to apply.

44 00:04:54,990 --> 00:05:00,750 And I looked at this job description and I remember saying to my husband,

45 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:04,710 I feel like this job's got my name on it and it just kind of ticked every box.

46 00:05:04,710 --> 00:05:08,950 It was a research role. It was a permanent job, which was really important.

47 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:15,010 For me, it was a homeworking contract, which this was all happening during the pandemic,

48 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:21,760 and I really benefited from homeworking, so I was quite eager to apply for jobs and that would be permanently home based.

49 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,900 And yes, that's kind of how I got to where I am now. One thing led to another.

50 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:31,510 I thought I'll just put in an application and see what happens. But I've got this postdoc funding, so it's no big deal if I don't get it.

51 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:37,840 Let's just see what happens. And I had an interview, was offered the job.

52 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:42,610 And so here I am. I've been in this job for about three and a half months now.

53 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:50,830 Thank you so much for that. I think just a story that will really resonate with so many of our listeners about the

54 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:54,940 the getting towards the end of the research degree in that kind of anxiety where,

55 00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:01,120 you know, where the hell am I going next? Is academia right for me?

56 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:09,130 I can't see anything outside of it that really feels like it speaks to my interest or my knowledge or my skills.

57 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:16,020 And I think it's really important just to. Acknowledge how normal that feeling is.

58 00:06:16,020 --> 00:06:21,020 Yeah, and and I think as well, we're not very good in academia about talking about that.

59 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:27,170 So I always kind of felt like I wasn't I wasn't sure if academia was right for me,

60 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:32,220 but no one ever really talked about, well, if not academia than what

61 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:39,500 And I always kind of felt like everybody else in academia was so committed and so sure that this was where they wanted their careers to be.

62 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,900 And actually now, on reflection, I don't know that that's true.

63 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:48,030 I think that we just a lot of people have those doubts, but it's for whatever reason, it's not really talked about.

64 00:06:48,030 --> 00:06:54,320 And the trouble with that is that it means that it is difficult to know what else there is.

65 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:03,260 And so I think it's really great that you do this podcast. And I think that needs to be more resources like this for, you know, pre docs,

66 00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:09,050 PhD students, postdocs, just to kind of get an understanding of what else is out there.

67 00:07:09,050 --> 00:07:16,940 Because I the thought of leaving academia was really quite scary for me because I felt like nobody was talking about what happens when you leave.

68 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:25,070 You know if I hate it. Can I come back? Will I be seen as kind of an outsider or a traitor for leaving?

69 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:30,890 And I found that really unsettling because I felt like I was the only the only one who.

70 00:07:30,890 --> 00:07:38,150 Wasn't completely sure that I wanted to stay on this career path and kind of aspire to become a professor,

71 00:07:38,150 --> 00:07:42,380 so I think it's really great that we're having this conversation and that you're kind of

72 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:47,870 pushing forward these sorts of topics and conversations because I think they need to be had.

73 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:51,050 They do. And I think, you know, you said it yourself.

74 00:07:51,050 --> 00:08:00,830 There's a real taboo around talking about even thinking is academia right for academia right for me, let alone leaving.

75 00:08:00,830 --> 00:08:08,270 Yeah. And and there's all sorts of really, really problematic narratives around it as well.

76 00:08:08,270 --> 00:08:15,350 You know, a lot of people have this misconception, but, you know, it's perpetuated that,

77 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:20,300 you know, if you if you decide not to be an academic, you've in some sense failed.

78 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:26,120 Failed. Yeah. And and it's really difficult to to push past that.

79 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,590 Yeah. Especially when the narrative is so pervasive. It is.

80 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:35,760 And I felt as well because I wasn't sure, you know, I really enjoyed academia in lots of ways.

81 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:43,340 So it wasn't like I absolutely hated it and I knew I wanted out. It was like, OK, I quite like this, but there's also some stuff I'm not sure about.

82 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:51,520 And and what I worried about was if I tell anyone that I'm thinking about jobs outside of academia.

83 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,010 People might not consider me for jobs inside academia, and so I never told anybody,

84 00:08:57,010 --> 00:09:02,560 I never wanted to speak to my supervisors or those that I worked with because I thought,

85 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:08,530 well, if a job comes up, they might think, well, she's not very committed, so let's not offer it to her.

86 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:14,620 And so there was kind of this difficult dynamic where I felt like I needed to be speaking about what other options there were,

87 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:21,800 but also didn't want to look like I wasn't committed enough to be able to do a good job if I did decide to stay.

88 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,870 Yeah, exactly, and it's something I've heard so much over the past few years, at Exeter

89 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:35,210 is that is a real fear of if I express that I might not be interested in staying in academia, what might the consequences be?

90 00:09:35,210 --> 00:09:36,950 How might that limit my opportunities?

91 00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:44,690 And like you say, if I go out and I decide actually I don't like it and I want to come back, you know, is that going to damage my chances?

92 00:09:44,690 --> 00:09:47,550 So I wanted to pick up on a couple of things.

93 00:09:47,550 --> 00:09:55,890 So, you know, you said not knowing what was out there, you signed up to loads of  job alerts, but nothing was coming up that really spoke to you.

94 00:09:55,890 --> 00:10:00,140 Can you talk a little bit about that and about the kind of things were coming up?

95 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:04,970 And what what what about the most resonating with you?

96 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:09,680 I found it very difficult, a lot of the jobs that were coming up.

97 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,190 So I think I signed up for job alerts that were kind of, you know, based on keywords.

98 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:21,020 So it was like research, research, data analysis, those kinds of things.

99 00:10:21,020 --> 00:10:25,880 But there was very little in the way of kind of well-rounded research.

100 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,280 So there were tons and tons of kind of data scientist, data, analyst type roles.

101 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:38,210 And as much as I really enjoy working with data and it was one of the things during my Ph.D. that I particularly enjoyed,

102 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:43,340 I I'm still I'm not a data scientist. Right. And that's quite a specific set of skills.

103 00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:47,420 And so a lot of these jobs were coming up where I was thinking, well, that sounds really interesting,

104 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:51,360 but I don't I don't think I've quite got the skill set in order to do that.

105 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:59,600 And there was very little that seemed to be out there that was kind of like a well rounded researcher role that might involve,

106 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:05,870 you know, a bit of research design, a bit of data collection, a bit of analysis, a bit of dissemination.

107 00:11:05,870 --> 00:11:12,440 There was just nothing really coming up. But I tell you what I saw, I think I searched on, you know, all the usual places,

108 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:20,000 Glassdoor indeed, and LinkedIn, and set up loads of job alerts through those kinds of places.

109 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:27,020 But the one thing I didn't do was look at civil service and I honestly never even crossed my mind.

110 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:30,020 I just never, ever. And that's why I think these kinds of conversations are so important,

111 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:35,820 because I didn't really even think about there being research posts in the civil service.

112 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:40,510 There are tons of research jobs in the civil service, not just ONS there.

113 00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:43,860 But I mean, there are loads of jobs being advertised at ONS

114 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,990 But, you know, departments, Education Department of Health and Social Care, Department for Transport,

115 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:54,080 depending what your topic area or area of interest is, there are loads of research jobs in the civil service.

116 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:01,070 And I had absolutely no idea. Yeah, and I, I think it's it's so common.

117 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:05,330 It's you know, if you're interested in an academic career, I mean,

118 00:12:05,330 --> 00:12:11,720 I'm not saying it's easy because it's highly competitive, but you're surrounded by the people with the information.

119 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:20,660 You're surrounded by the gatekeepers. Well, and, you know, you can you see very clearly in front of you what the options are.

120 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:32,120 Yeah. Outside it. You know, it's it's such a big sort of open ended market of possibilities.

121 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,550 And knowing where you might fit within that is really difficult.

122 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:42,390 So. In thinking about what kind of didn't resonate with you.

123 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:46,700 About those roles, what was it about this role that you're now in?

124 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:50,710 that did speak to you. What is it that made you go at that?

125 00:12:50,710 --> 00:13:00,180 That sounds like it might be for me. It was the fact that the job description was so the job title was senior research officer,

126 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:05,400 but the job description mentioned the whole life cycle of research.

127 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,880 So it said something along the lines of, you know, roles might include.

128 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:20,250 And it was everything from designing research, working with stakeholders, you know, managing a team of researchers, data analysis, dissemination.

129 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:27,030 It was basically a postdoc researcher, but working for government.

130 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:28,800 And I thought, well, that's exactly what I want.

131 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:37,040 I don't want to be stuck into, you know, being a specialist data scientist that's a bit outside the realms of what I'm capable of.

132 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:43,770 It's it's a bit of everything and everything that I've learnt along the last nine years of being academia.

133 00:13:43,770 --> 00:13:48,240 I've done all of that. So I literally looked at the job description and I thought, well, I can do that.

134 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:55,230 I can do that. I can do that. There was nothing in it that made me go that's a bit outside of what I can really do.

135 00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:58,560 And it just felt like it fit

136 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:07,380 My skills and probably the skill set of a lot of kind of early postdoc researchers, early career researchers, perfectly.

137 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:16,200 But it had the benefit of being a permanent job, which I hadn't had, you know, at the age of thirty two, I'd never had a permanent job.

138 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,070 And that was I felt like it was the time of my life where I was just a bit tired

139 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:23,580 of being on fixed term contracts and always having to worry about what came next.

140 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:34,620 And so to have a kind of well-rounded research job that was working from home and that was permanent was just I mean, it was a no brainer.

141 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:38,100 Yeah. And I think, you know, we don't talk again.

142 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:45,870 We don't talk enough about or we talk a lot about precarity in academia, but we don't talk enough about actually why that might be a reason to leave.

143 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:52,410 Yeah. Yep, that's right. It's it's almost something that you just kind of expected to put up with.

144 00:14:52,410 --> 00:15:01,270 And it's like, well, that's just how it is, you know, and and all of the kind of more senior academics have been through that process as well.

145 00:15:01,270 --> 00:15:05,880 So all you see is, you know, even kind of the role models and the people that you aspire to,

146 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,300 to be like eventually still have to go through that process.

147 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:15,840 So it's kind of just like, well, that's if you want to be in academia, that is just what you have to put up with.

148 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,500 And I think in you know, in the time of covid as well, I felt kind of.

149 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:24,040 Like, it was extra precarious and I thought,

150 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:30,260 I don't know what the landscape is going to be like over the next couple of years, and that was really scary.

151 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:36,200 It is, and lots of people, for various reasons, it can be, you know,

152 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:43,790 the fact that you just don't have the kind of life circumstances where you can work precariously.

153 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:49,440 It can be, you know, that you are incredibly tied geographically for various reasons

154 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,100 You know, there's lots of different reasons why.

155 00:15:53,100 --> 00:16:01,090 That kind of that kind of system doesn't really work for people, and therefore it can be a reason to leave academia,

156 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:08,010 but that doesn't mean leaving behind research and the things that you're passionate about in terms of your subject area,

157 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:12,250 but also in terms of your skills.

158 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:13,500 Yeah, exactly.

159 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:27,620 And I think one of the things I really was quite nervous about leaving and from the point where I accepted the job to the point where I left, I.

160 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:36,650 Was anticipating that I was going to regret leaving from day one and I was going to wonder what I'd done and I don't know,

161 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:40,640 I sort of feel like I'd maybe put academia up on a bit of a pedestal where I thought,

162 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,560 you know, this is the best thing in the world and I'm not going to have that anymore.

163 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:54,950 And one of the things that I particularly worried about so one of the things I love about academia is working with,

164 00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:59,840 like some of the brightest minds in the world. Right. Like, no exaggeration.

165 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:08,750 And you get to sit in on conversations and be involved in conversations or it's like, you know, groundbreaking research, really smart people.

166 00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:11,330 And I just love that I found it really exciting.

167 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:21,260 And I thought if I leave academia, I'm going to lose that, that actually there were tons of really bright people at ONS and there were tons of ex academics.

168 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:25,100 I went as I didn't lose that at all.

169 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:30,650 You know that there are things and we can talk about that, you know, there are things that I miss and things that I lost.

170 00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:35,270 But working with bright people definitely wasn't one of them.

171 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:43,730 And I can honestly say that I haven't looked back for a second and I haven't had once I left,

172 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:50,870 it was kind of the couple of months up to leaving that were horrible because I was so worried about whether I was going to regret it.

173 00:17:50,870 --> 00:18:00,350 As soon as I started my new job, I. I just knew I'd made the right decision and even in those first couple of months and starting a new job,

174 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:06,110 which is always a bit unsettling and especially, you know, it was a big change going to civil service from academia.

175 00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:12,500 It's in some respects, it's totally different. And and there were moments where I felt quite unsettled.

176 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:19,400 Even now, you know, three and a half months down the line, I still have moments of feeling a bit unsettled, but never for a second.

177 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:27,580 I thought I wish I hadn't left. There's something really for me, this is something really to do with identity,

178 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:32,680 and I experienced it myself when I stopped being an academic and I moved into professional services.

179 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:43,630 I really felt like I was going to be leaving a huge part of myself behind and that I you know, I felt like it was going to be gut wrenching.

180 00:18:43,630 --> 00:18:48,390 Yes. To leave my leave my research topic. And I,

181 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:54,820 I to the extent that I thought I would probably carry on with some of my research

182 00:18:54,820 --> 00:19:00,370 and it was only I've been in this job six years so about two years ago,

183 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:05,620 that I finally had an exodus of books and research materials.

184 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:10,030 When I realised it's been four years, it's probably not going to happen.

185 00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:17,560 Yeah. And because actually, you know, that it was so tied to my sense of identity that I thought it was going to be this massive,

186 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,390 massive thing to stop doing it and to leave and to forge a different path.

187 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:27,370 And, you know, like you, when I started it, I thought, oh, actually, this this feels right.

188 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:34,030 It feels like the right environment for me. It feels like doing the right thing. And I'm not looked at once and I've never missed it.

189 00:19:34,030 --> 00:19:43,660 Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think I can really relate to that kind of sense of your identity being wrapped up in academia,

190 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:52,120 because in academic research it's all about you, like it's about you, your research interests, your proposals.

191 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:58,660 You know, it's so centred on you that that it does become part of your identity.

192 00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:07,630 And and I think it feels like it probably felt like one of the biggest life decisions I've ever made and probably still does to leave.

193 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:15,550 It felt like this huge, huge decision, and especially because I'd just been awarded some postdoc funding.

194 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:21,550 So I was like, I'm I'm literally like I'm walking away from a really good opportunity.

195 00:20:21,550 --> 00:20:26,410 And I guess as well, you know, it's always talked about how competitive research funding is.

196 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:29,980 And, you know, if you've been awarded something, it's like, wow, that's amazing. Well done.

197 00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:40,840 You should be so pleased that like to walk away felt really difficult and almost like I was letting people down or letting myself down somehow.

198 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,060 But yeah, it's funny how pretty much as soon as I did that,

199 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:51,250 I kind of I saw things from a slightly different perspective and I realised how the culture

200 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:57,130 of academia kind of perpetuates that way of thinking where it's all focussed on you.

201 00:20:57,130 --> 00:21:02,860 You're not letting anybody down if you decide to leave, like you're not letting anybody down, you're just not.

202 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:08,740 And you know what? Your self identity will change and evolve, OK?

203 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:14,320 It won't be wrapped up in, you know, this really kind of specific area of speciality that you've developed.

204 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:22,540 But you'll have a new identity and you'll still have many of the aspects of your old identity, but it will just evolve and change.

205 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:29,430 But that's just part of life, right? We change anyway. So nothing to fear.

206 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:33,870 Yeah, I think that I think that's so, so important to acknowledge,

207 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:40,080 and it was going to be one of my key questions for you was kind of what happens when you when you leave and what does that feel like?

208 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:46,860 Because it is it's a huge source of anxiety for people because it feels like a complete unknown.

209 00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:51,450 And like you say, we don't talk about it, you know, so we fear it.

210 00:21:51,450 --> 00:22:03,900 That's right. And and, yeah, you know, academia, it's not just a job when you're in academic research, it is more than that it is wrapped up in your identity.

211 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:11,040 So it's a big deal. But, you know, and I'm sure there are people who leave and find that transition really difficult.

212 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,210 But for me, it wasn't difficult at all.

213 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:24,870 And actually, you know, I've still got some old projects from my academic career kind of rolling on.

214 00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:32,490 And honestly, if anything, I've had moments of thinking, God, I just want to get those things done so that I can put it behind me and move on.

215 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:41,100 And it's it's funny how quickly my loyalty has changed.

216 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,780 And I felt like actually that was something from the past.

217 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:50,430 And I'm ready to just move on and, you know, learn it, learn a new job and develop a new life.

218 00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:59,040 And and for my job to not be such a strong part of my identity anymore, I actually find that really refreshing.

219 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:06,060 I did too. there's quite a burden. I think at the time I didn't realise because I thought it was cool.

220 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:11,700 But, you know, my research was so important and then it was all wrapped up in me and my self identity.

221 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:17,820 And and so I didn't realise it until I left. But actually, I think for me that felt like like a bit of a burden.

222 00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:28,190 And it's it's nice to feel like, although what I'm doing now is still really important and it's impactful, it's I can see it more as just a job.

223 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:32,040 And I think I really appreciate that. Yeah.

224 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:39,420 And I, I thought exactly the same about, you know, actually I don't think I necessarily felt it was a burden at the time.

225 00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:45,150 But when I realised the weight had been lifted. Yeah. I realised realise what a burden it was.

226 00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:50,520 But at the same time I always say, you know, it's not like that for everybody.

227 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:57,810 It's it doesn't feel like it's not a burden for everybody. And, you know, that's an important thing to recognise, too.

228 00:23:57,810 --> 00:24:01,950 But if it is for you, then maybe this is it's not the environment.

229 00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:08,340 Yeah. And if your passion is research, there's plenty of things that you can go and do.

230 00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:13,580 So the thing that I wanted to talk about next was the application process for your job.

231 00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:20,790 at ONS cause again, it's something that feels in academia we sort of know a bit about if we're in the system,

232 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:26,340 about how job adverts and applications and interviews and how all of those processes go.

233 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:34,530 But it feels like a really huge unknown when we're talking about public service or industry, particularly the civil service.

234 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:40,500 So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what the application involved and what the interview process involved.

235 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:51,600 Yeah, so it was a very different experience to jobs that I had applied for in academia, and the application form was fine.

236 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,310 I actually um because like I said, I hadn't been looking out for civil service jobs.

237 00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:00,180 So I hadn't spotted this job until someone messaged me on LinkedIn.

238 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:02,820 And I didn't get the message until the day before the closing day.

239 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:08,580 So I literally had like one evening and a bit of the next day to put my application together.

240 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:18,060 So it was very rushed and I think it involved a CV and a description of my previous work experience.

241 00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:24,150 And then I had to do a statement. So I think it was seven hundred and fifty words.

242 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:28,080 And I had to discuss a piece of work,

243 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:34,980 that I had led or a piece of research that I had led and there were specific criteria about what I needed to include.

244 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:38,870 So it was how I had led a team, what the outcome was,

245 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:44,670 and there were some other things that were specified in there that was pretty easy, to be completely honest.

246 00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:51,780 If you've got kind of post PhD level, you'll be able to talk about a piece of work that you've led.

247 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:55,080 So that was more just kind of, you know, like a lot of job applications.

248 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:01,710 It's a bit tedious having to put that together and because I didn't have much time to do it, but that was fine.

249 00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:11,130 And then I was contacted fairly soon afterwards inviting me to interview.

250 00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:17,640 And then I had to log on to Civil Service Jobs website.

251 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,160 So it's worth mentioning for anyone listening to this,

252 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,920 if you think you might be interested in a research job in civil service, they're all advertised by a civil service.

253 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,940 Jobs, I think it's .co.uk

254 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:37,930 So all civil service kind of government organisations will all be posted on there and the whole application process is managed on there as well.

255 00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:41,200 And so then I had to book myself an interview date

256 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,840 So basically it's all done on an automated system and you got a choice of different dates and then you select one.

257 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:58,540 The interview itself was hard. It was about an hour and a half long and it was broken down into three parts.

258 00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,410 The first part was a presentation. I think it was only a five minute presentation.

259 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:07,450 And they sent me information about what I had to present on about a week before.

260 00:27:07,450 --> 00:27:16,720 And basically by the content of it was that they gave me a general topic area with a list of specific research questions.

261 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,840 And I had to kind of a bit of a brief that some government department wanted this research and what they wanted it for.

262 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,050 I had to pick a couple of the research questions to focus on, and then I had to design a study to address those questions.

263 00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:35,970 So the first part of my interview was presenting that. And then the panel asked me a bunch of questions about it.

264 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:41,230 You know, why did you select those questions? Why did you pick this design?

265 00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:46,570 How could you do it differently? What the strengths and weaknesses.

266 00:27:46,570 --> 00:27:57,890 And then that was followed up with quite specific I think they call them research skills questions.

267 00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:03,980 If you had just come out of your undergraduate degree, particularly in something like psychology,

268 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,510 which was what my degree was, it would probably be relatively easy.

269 00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:18,560 But if you're a few years or more, as in my case, kind of post undergrad, it was things like, you know, what is a normal distribution?

270 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:28,040 How would you explain a P value to a lay audience and things like that, which, you know, if you work with day to kind of day to day, you know,

271 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:35,780 those things, but actually being able to provide like a really neat definition for it in a high stress interview situation was really,

272 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:39,740 really difficult. That's really tough. Yeah, it was hard.

273 00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:42,260 And there was about 20 minutes of those kinds of questions.

274 00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:50,750 But I was lucky that I had before my interview, I'd gone on to the Glassdoor website and I looked up.

275 00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:57,380 So on there this is a very big tip to anyone listening to this who's thinking of applying for other jobs.

276 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:01,280 And there's a there's a tab on Glassdoor for interviews.

277 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,090 So if you go to whatever the organisation is they search for, say,

278 00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:12,890 I want to go to the interviews tab and there will be people who have posted about their experiences of having an interview at the organisation,

279 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:20,810 and it includes interview questions. And so I had seen on that, I think it was only, I don't know, a few days before my interview,

280 00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:24,560 my husband actually said, well, have you had a look on Glassdoor? And I didn't know this was a thing.

281 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,080 So we stood and we stood there together. I was kind of over his shoulder. He was on his computer pull up these interviews.

282 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,840 And I saw a few for the specific kind of job role that I had advertised for.

283 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,690 And it said on there, you know, people were saying I was asked these kind of very specific research questions,

284 00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:47,480 statistics type questions with some examples of the kinds of questions that I remember standing there and saying to a husband,

285 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,870 oh, my God, there is no way I'm going to be able to do that.

286 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:56,360 And so I spent the next three days, like revising all my undergraduate stats and research methods.

287 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:04,040 If I hadn't have done that, I think that interview process would have been a lot more stressful than it was and would have been really

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