Epsiode 18 - Ruth Gilligan (Senior Lecturer at Birmingham University)

23-09-2021 • 27 mins

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Ruth Gilligan, Senior Lecturer in Creative Writing at Birmingham University and author of The Butchers.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,910 --> 00:00:23,720 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter.

2 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,600 Hello and welcome back to Beyond Your Research Degree.

3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,830 I'm really delighted to be back with you after our summer hiatus and to be bringing to you a conversation with Dr. Ruth Gilligan.

4 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:38,810 Ruth is a senior lecturer and academic, but also because she's in creative writing.

5 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:46,010 She is a published author. And so I thought it would be interesting for us to have a conversation with someone who is an

6 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:52,820 academic but maintains a professional profile and creative practise alongside their academic work.

7 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:57,890 So Ruth, happy to introduce herself, certainly. Well, firstly, thanks so much for having me.

8 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:04,400 It's lovely to be chatting to you and reminiscing a little bit about my time at Exeter.

9 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:12,650 I came to Exeter in two thousand and eleven to start my PhD in creative writing,

10 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:18,110 and then I actually went straight for my PhD into my first academic job.

11 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:24,860 I the first interview I went for my creative writing role had come up at the University of Birmingham.

12 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:31,010 So despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I was like, ah sure, I'll apply and see what happens.

13 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:40,790 And anyway, I got offered a job. So I started as a lecturer in creative writing at the University of Birmingham in kind of August twenty fourteen,

14 00:01:40,790 --> 00:01:44,690 at which point I was still in the final two or three months of my PhD.

15 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:50,900 So I was kind of trying to pretend that I was a lecturer and seem very grown up and important to my students,

16 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:58,880 despite the fact that I was secretly still a student myself and trying furiously to dot all the T's and cross all the I's on my thesis.

17 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:07,040 So yeah, it was a bit of a mad time, but yeah, then I started out at Birmingham and seven, maybe eight years later I'm still there.

18 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:16,610 So I'm now a senior lecturer. Since that time, I've also published two more novels and I had published three novels before my PhD at Exeter,

19 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:23,660 but I went on to publish two more, one of which was the novel that I wrote as part of my creative writing PhD.

20 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:26,960 And then my most recent book The Butchers came out last year.

21 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:35,300 So yes, I am now kind of fully fledged novelist, academic, creative writing lecturer and still very much in touch with Sam

22 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:41,090 And Sinead my two wonderful supervisors and have very, very fond memories of working with them.

23 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:43,490 There's a number of things I think I want to pick up on in that.

24 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:50,120 And the first is something that comes up a surprising amount, actually, in talking to people for this podcast,

25 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:58,430 which is about kind of seeing an opportunity when you've not actually finished the PhD and going for it and getting it,

26 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:05,060 and then how you go about juggling, working and finishing up.

27 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:13,820 Could you talk a little bit about what that experience was like, kind of managing the workload of working whilst also finishing the PhD?

28 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:21,350 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, part of me looks back at that and thinks, what did I eat for breakfast that morning?

29 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:26,870 That I had the kind of gumption to apply for a job, despite the fact that I hadn't even finished the PhD.

30 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:34,940 In the spirit of full disclosure, the job was actually a senior lecturer role, which I definitely wasn't qualified for,

31 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:42,620 but I applied and they ended up basically giving the senior lectureship to someone else who was duly qualified,

32 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:46,820 but then creating a new lecturer in creative writing role, which they offered to me.

33 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:55,700 So I'm a big believer in. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I hadn't applied and taking my punch, yeah, that wouldn't have played out that way.

34 00:03:55,700 --> 00:04:01,760 So, yeah, I'm a big believer. Just throwing your hat in the ring and see what happens in terms of managing the workload.

35 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 I mean, you know, realistically, I was at the tail end of the PhD.

36 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Like, I'm not someone who had kind of left all the work at the last minute, like both Sam and Sinead, my supervisors,

37 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,130 like they've been very good about making sure that I was making steady progress

38 00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:20,090 and I'd already written multiple drafts of both the creative and the critical.

39 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:25,640 So although those last few months are always going to be quite panicked and quite frantic,

40 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,750 just because you are about to submit this thing that you've been working on for three years,

41 00:04:29,750 --> 00:04:33,500 it wasn't like I still had kind of half the thing to write. Like I had.

42 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:39,860 I had written multiple drafts. I was just kind of finessing and going through my bibliography and all that kind of boring stuff.

43 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:41,340 So, yeah, it was a lot.

44 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:50,270 But it also coincided with me like I moved to Birmingham and when I first started the job, so I kind of was in a new city, my my partner.

45 00:04:50,270 --> 00:04:54,050 Who's that at the time He was my boyfriend. Now he's my husband. he at that same time

46 00:04:54,050 --> 00:05:01,640 Ictually moved to Singapore for six months. So I just kind of find myself living in this little flat in Birmingham on my own.

47 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,740 I didn't really know anyone in the city. I was starting a new job. I was also finishing my Ph.D.

48 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:10,660 So, yeah, I probably wasn't the most social time of my life.

49 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:15,130 Fundamentally, I managed to get it all done, and I'm delighted that it played out the way it did.

50 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:19,630 You know, my my big fear, the reason I kind of pursued doing it that way,

51 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:24,610 even though it was a bit nuts, was I think like so many people in academia, the fear of, like,

52 00:05:24,610 --> 00:05:31,510 not knowing what the next step is going to be or the idea of kind of having a gap before you figure out the next thing you know,

53 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:36,850 have plenty of friends and colleagues who've had that situation where there is a gap when they go from one thing to the other.

54 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:42,400 But I know from my own personality type that I would have just been absolutely freaking out if I didn't have something lined up.

55 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:48,850 So I would rather kind of take on too much in there, be perhaps a bit of overlap rather than being in the desert, not knowing.

56 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:54,340 So, yeah, it was worth it in that regards. I wanted to kind of take a step back,

57 00:05:54,340 --> 00:06:03,580 step back to that point of applying now and I'm really interested when you said that it was kind of a it was a senior lecturer role,

58 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:06,400 but you kind of nothing ventured, nothing gained, kind of went for it.

59 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,850 And actually, you may not have got that role, but something else came out of it.

60 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:16,250 Were there any particular challenges that you felt that you were coming up against because you were still a Ph.D. student?

61 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:23,990 Yeah, and it's a it's a great question, I think I should say, again, in the interest of full disclosure, like I mentioned briefly,

62 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:29,780 but like despite the fact that I was still finishing my PhD, I had published three novels before I did the book.

63 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:36,110 So I, um, I do appreciate that that might not be the case with all PhD students.

64 00:06:36,110 --> 00:06:38,750 So I kind of had the publishing track records.

65 00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:47,600 I think the big gap and this is where kind of Sam and Sinead were particularly helpful was because it was my first academic application

66 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:57,350 interview and ultimately post just kind of plugging in a little bit to university speak like I didn't really know at that point,

67 00:06:57,350 --> 00:07:09,230 having only been a student albeit a Ph.D. students, I learnt phrases like REF and outputs and impact and all these kind of buzzwords that

68 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:18,080 we're going to come up in my interview and I and they were going to quiz me on. So kind of swotting up a little bit on that vernacular.

69 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,550 But yeah, I think, you know, in those situations, I'm kind of like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

70 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:30,950 I just think that, as you said, just getting your name in front of people and maybe they don't even shortlist you for that particular role,

71 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:39,410 but they'll still lodge at the back of their minds the next time they are looking for something or someone with your set of expertise,

72 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:46,100 your or kind of a prior prior knowledge of you were already going to be at the back of their minds.

73 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:51,860 I do think, like I read various things as well, that I do think there's something slightly gendered as well in terms of,

74 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:55,940 you know, they've done various studies whereby women only apply for jobs,

75 00:07:55,940 --> 00:08:05,120 where they have all of the required skills, whereas men are much more likely if they've got half or even less, they'll be they'll still go for it.

76 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:14,060 So I think that I am always keen in life to kind of be challenging those kind of gender stereotypes or whatever.

77 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,850 So, yeah, I just I just thought, what what's the worst that can happen?

78 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:23,480 And I think, you know, like, I remember going for my undergraduate interview and I remember, like,

79 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:31,250 the last thing someone said to me going in to class was like, they don't expect you to be perfect and to know everything.

80 00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:36,800 But just having that willingness to learn and that potential, if they can see that, that's really all they want.

81 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 So I don't think it's totally dissimilar within a job capacity.

82 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,930 Like with the academic world, they could see that I'd never, you know I'd done teaching and stuff at Exeter,

83 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:49,100 but I've never worked full time in an academic role before.

84 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:56,840 But they could see that I was able to, as I said, swot up on that front I and familiarise myself with the kind of university landscape.

85 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,590 And I was going to give it literally everything. So as long as they saw thatthey knew that I was going to be able to to do the job.

86 00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:09,050 And as I said, seven years later, I'm still there. So they were right.

87 00:09:09,050 --> 00:09:17,750 Very much so, and I think that's really important and that that point about it's not about perfection, it's about potential.

88 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:22,010 It's about willingness to learn and openness to that.

89 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:31,550 And it got me thinking about what experiences you had when you were doing your Ph.D. that you found were

90 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:38,570 really beneficial in helping you kind of apply for and secure that first job with that particular things,

91 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:46,850 or was it just the kind of guidance and mentorship of your supervisors? I mean, as I mentioned, I did so I did do quite a lot of teaching.

92 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:54,680 I and then also while I was there, I did my I think it was called the LTHE

93 00:09:54,680 --> 00:10:01,160 So the learning and teaching and higher education. I did the kind of first bit

94 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,110 So I remember doing that. And it was one of those things where you go along and you don't really know what to expect.

95 00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:12,260 And some of it was quite theoretical and some of it was quite abstract and some of it was quite practical and Hands-On.

96 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:15,920 And inevitably, though, when you're doing the breakout groups of the workshop sessions,

97 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,580 you get lunch with the the scientists who are like, what creative writing that isn't a real subject.

98 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:23,360 Why are you going to try and teach that? They have to spend half of the time defending it.

99 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,050 But all that being said, I did actually find it really, really useful.

100 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:31,700 And that was kind of my first induction into kind of really thinking about teaching

101 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:36,860 and lecturing and what what it involves and what kind of teacher I might become.

102 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:40,220 So I did actually find that really useful and then being able to put it into practise.

103 00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:51,840 As I said with those sessions, I also taught at the Edinburgh University run this the Scottish Universities International Summer School thing,

104 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,670 and it's just a four week course, but they get students from all over the world.

105 00:10:55,670 --> 00:11:01,250 And basically I was tasked with designing and then delivering a four week creative writing course

106 00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:09,590 for these these overseas students who kind of ranged from anything eighteen to twenty five.

107 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:16,220 So that was like another great opportunity for me. And this time I had complete autonomy to decide what what they were going to read,

108 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,680 what they were going to do, how the whole thing was going to be structured.

109 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,180 So again, I was slightly throwing me in at the deep end because I had had so much freedom.

110 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:29,540 But again, it was a brilliant opportunity for me to kind of flex my teaching chops.

111 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:32,960 I think that's mixing multiple metaphors, but yeah, just to give it a go.

112 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,210 So then when I did finally start Birmingham, I did actually have quite a lot of not a lot,

113 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,000 but like a good amount of teaching experience under my belt.

114 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,000 And I could also say that I have been in a position whereby I'd have to kind of curate and design a course, myself.

115 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,930 So that was a really, really useful stuff. Yeah, I was thinking that and that summer school opportunity, actually,

116 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:58,870 that's that's where you kind of have that additional experience where you go beyond teaching

117 00:11:58,870 --> 00:12:04,270 seminars or doing lectures and to actually thinking about designing and setting curriculum,

118 00:12:04,270 --> 00:12:10,240 which, of course, is not something you necessarily get to get involved in when you were a Ph.D. student,

119 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,100 but is a huge part of being being an academic.

120 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:20,410 Yeah, and I think I'm always kind of encouraging people to look look out for opportunities like that.

121 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,750 I think, you know, within the creative writing world, anyway,

122 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:30,710 there are various summer schools or workshop scenarios or one off taster's or a six week courses or whatever.

123 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:36,520 So I think like anything, getting anything like that under your belt, I think is is hugely useful.

124 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:44,800 You know, it's not necessarily the case that you just have to have loads and loads and loads of very specific undergraduate or postgraduate teaching.

125 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,300 It's just any sort of any sort of experience, especially, as you said,

126 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:55,100 if there is some kind of design or management element attached to that, the more so the better.

127 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:59,450 Was there anything particular in research terms that you did,

128 00:12:59,450 --> 00:13:09,260 or was it just kind of the process of doing the Ph.D. that really kind of stood you in good stead to then move on to an academic role?

129 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,610 And it's a good question.

130 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:18,690 I think the whole point of me doing the PhD, this is already alluded to like I had published three novels before, before starting at Exeter.

131 00:13:18,690 --> 00:13:23,850 But those novels were very much they were very commercial. They were very much based on personal experience,

132 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:30,500 like they were kind of all of kind of young people in Dublin growing up and doing stupid things and finding their way.

133 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:37,310 Well, it's very much based on my own life and my own encounters. And I sort of after the third one was published,

134 00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:42,320 I sort of realised that although I definitely did want to keep writing and publishing and going forwards,

135 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,540 these weren't necessarily the kinds of books that I was interested in and in pursuing.

136 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:51,380 So I kind of took a break to figure out what kind of books do I want to do.

137 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,690 And I realised that the books I love to read were actually books that had nothing to do with my own personal experience.

138 00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:01,220 You know, there were novels set in different portions of history or engaging with different cultures or

139 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:05,510 parts of the world or whatever where and where I kind of learn something when I was reading that.

140 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:08,840 So I was really interested in, well, could I write a book like that? Like,

141 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:16,590 could I write a book that would require me to go away and do a lot of research and interview a lot of people and really kind of expand my horizons.

142 00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:21,740 And I'm kind of right outside of my own first hand experience. So that was a real journey for me.

143 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:28,760 And that was what was kind of about. I was doing a lot of research in the very traditional sense, like I did a lot of archival work.

144 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440 I went that the novel was based around the history of the Jewish community in Ireland.

145 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,320 So I travelled all over Ireland interviewing people. I was down in Cork and some archives there.

146 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,220 I actually went to Israel to interview the Irish community that's now living out there.

147 00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:48,770 So I really was doing that kind of library based or to field research kind of

148 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:54,530 stuff that you might not necessarily associate with with with creative writing.

149 00:14:54,530 --> 00:15:00,410 And then, of course, I had folders and folders and folders, notes. And I was like, OK, how on earth do I translate this into a novel?

150 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:06,500 So a lot of my PhD was then trying to marry this kind of factual research that I'd

151 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:11,750 acquired with a story and characters and craft and all of those kinds of things.

152 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:20,640 So so figuring out all of that was was a real took a long time and that's why I needed the three years of a PhD.

153 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Also, as I mentioned, the novel was about the Jewish community in Ireland.

154 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:25,970 I'm not Jewish myself.

155 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:34,910 So I was very aware when I was working on this project of my own kind of position and and whether it was it OK that I was writing this novel,

156 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:39,590 how ethically what were the challenges formerly Practically all this kind of stuff.

157 00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:41,870 And then, as I mentioned right at the start,

158 00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:50,360 the critical part of my PhD was then looking at other Irish authors who have similarly written about minority communities or groups that

159 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:57,800 they're not necessarily a member of themselves and kind of the way that they have navigated that potentially kind of tricky territory.

160 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:04,400 So that academic thinking and looking at other authors that very much informed my own practise.

161 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:13,550 So, again, that kind of circular process of research and reflection and then writing, just figuring out how that all works.

162 00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:18,860 And then, you know, it was lovely that after the PhD, I went on to publish the novel,

163 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:23,520 but I also went on to publish the critical portion as an academic article in the Journal.

164 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,120 So even at that point, I was I was still thinking of my research as both creative and critical.

165 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,710 And I know that when I went to the interview of Birmingham, that was something they were really keen on,

166 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:39,560 that I was someone who was doing both these kinds of research side by side and saw them very much in

167 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,630 conversation and informing each other and was going to kind of generate different types of output.

168 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:48,560 So that really helped me kind of figure out what kind of academic I wanted to be.

169 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,370 I didn't necessarily want to be just an English academic or just a creative writing academic.

170 00:16:52,370 --> 00:17:03,710 I kind of wanted to be both. I think that's really important and acknowledging the kind of the identity side of things, even if you're not kind of.

171 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:10,100 A creative practitioner or doing kind of practise both works of art about thinking about your identity.

172 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:12,680 Increasingly, PhDs are interdisciplinary.

173 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,220 And so then there's a question about, well, where do you sit in terms of discipline and department and and those aspects of identity as well?

174 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:27,650 It's something that a lot of people are grappling with in lots of different ways when they're looking at moving into an academic post.

175 00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:32,600 And I wondered if you could say a little bit more about the job application and the

176 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,640 interview and what what it practically involves the did you have to submit a CV,

177 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:43,870 a cover letter, a supporting statement? Like what? Do you remember what actually you had to.

178 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:54,770 Had to do as part of the process. Yeah, so I definitely remember all the things you've mentioned in terms of CV, a personal statement, a kind of.

179 00:17:54,770 --> 00:18:01,530 You know, various samples of my work, et cetera. The main thing I remember is the day itself.

180 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:05,350 There were kind of two parts to it. The first was a presentation.

181 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:12,660 So I had to give a presentation. And there about 20 people that I remember being slightly overwhelmed by how many people were in the room.

182 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:20,430 And I get I basically gave a presentation on sort of what I've just spoken about in terms of the kind of creative and critical aspects

183 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:30,390 of my research and how those two things are in conversation and how I might be able to envisage them developing going forward.

184 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:34,290 So that was in the morning. And then they made us have lunch with all the other candidates,

185 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:40,710 which seems like one of the cruellest things anyone's ever done is to make you have lunch with people that you're competing with for the same role.

186 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:44,800 So I think they've actually discontinued that because that is horrid.

187 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:54,660 It was awful. And then in the afternoon, then I had an interview with about eight people, like it was, again, quite overwhelming.

188 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,470 Yeah, some from creative writing, some from English, some from the wider college.

189 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:05,700 And then I think they have to have a couple of people from completely different parts of the university just almost as kind of a neutral party.

190 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,910 So it was like a guy there from geography and there was someone else there.

191 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:15,840 So, yeah, it was a real mix. And they asked me like a really wide range of questions.

192 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:25,920 I mean, I think I remember one woman. Her main job was to make me list out, like what we're going to be my four output's over the next few years.

193 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Again, just universities thinking in REF terms and always wanting to know what items of research you're going to actually produce.

194 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,040 So I sort of had to come up with the list of some things that I did actually end up delivering.

195 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,290 But I was kind of put on the spot a little bit with that one. They want to talk a little bit about impact and

196 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:52,500 So that's another. When I was interviewing back in twenty fourteen, I was kind of a buzz words.

197 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,520 I was just starting to emerge and it's now consumed my life for the last few years.

198 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,590 I'm actually now in to lead for our schools. So while talking and thinking about impact.

199 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:05,490 But back then I was just a PhD student who had learned a new word recently.

200 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:15,900 So I had to kind of real off ideas. I had to pertaining to that. So, yeah, it was a bit it was it was all, you know, friendly but marginally intense.

201 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,320 And then I went away thinking, well, I've given it a shot.

202 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:29,280 That's fine. And then they actually the head of college actually emailed me that night actually to say, yeah, we're not you know,

203 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:36,570 obviously you're far too junior to get the senior lecturer role that we had originally advertised,

204 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:40,110 but we're actually going to create this new role for you. Would you like it?

205 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:45,090 So that happened within a matter of hours, which was on Monday.

206 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:48,390 So that was a good day trip to Birmingham,

207 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:58,950 although a lot of people's anxiety about job applications in the application process is about the unknown and what it involves.

208 00:20:58,950 --> 00:21:06,090 And actually it involves some pretty standard things. But at the same time, you know, there's some things that you might get in terms of,

209 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,400 you know, we are driven by outputs and impact and all of those buzzwords.

210 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:19,200 And so, you know, being able to talk about how, you know, what your what your plan is for your research outputs,

211 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:29,520 what if you've got some publications that you'd like to adapt parts of your PhD to become or any kind of ideas about,

212 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,720 you know, spinoff project from your work

213 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:39,690 actually that sort of thinking about what might be possible in the future is quite helpful because it's likely to be asked about in that context,

214 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:43,350 because they want to know what you'll do when you're there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

215 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:49,410 I think I hadn't quite anticipated how much how far forward they would be looking

216 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:53,760 because I thought I was coming in really well prepared with this idea that,

217 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,340 like, wow, I'm writing a creative and critical thing for my my PhD.

218 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:04,020 So hopefully going forward, I'd like to publish both of those aspects.

219 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:10,380 So there's two outputs already lined up and almost ready to go.

220 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:15,240 And they were like, yeah, OK, cool and what about After that. I was like, oh, right, OK.

221 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:23,700 And I remember it's so funny. I remember them just like racking racking my brain because obviously I was put on the spot and I did at the very,

222 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:32,440 very back of my mind, have a tiny, tiny germ of an idea for the next novel and all.

223 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,630 I really had very little except that I knew I wanted to be called the butchers.

224 00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:41,870 So I remember saying that as I was like oh my next books going to be called The Butchers, and it's going to be set in rural Ireland.

225 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:48,180 I made it up. I honestly didn't know I hadn't even applied my brain to thinking about it because I was still finishing the previous one.

226 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:54,530 And I remember during that really quite awkward lunch with the other candidates, two of my.

227 00:22:54,530 --> 00:23:01,280 Colleagues came up to me separately in the lunch, and their main comment was wow The Butchers is such a good title for a novel.

228 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,980 I can't wait to read it. And I was laughing to myself. I was like, this is literally something I've kind of come up with on the spot.

229 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:09,590 Like they both said it to me.

230 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:15,970 And then when Ninefolds, which was my novel, did end up getting published and I was moving on to thinking about the next thing,

231 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:18,980 I was like, maybe I should actually write that book called The Butchers.

232 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:24,920 And sure enough, I spent the next four years researching and writing a novel called The Butchers, which came out last year.

233 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,260 So what sort of was a bit of a blg on the day of my interview ultimately became reality.

234 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:36,820 So there you go. And not only that, but one, the Royal Society of Literature.

235 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,230 Ondjante, I'm not even know if I'm saying that, right, Ondjante

236 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:45,740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fabulous.

237 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:53,300 Congratulations and it's fascinating to me to hear that, you know,

238 00:23:53,300 --> 00:24:01,100 this prize winning book came from a kind of something that sat in the back of your head in a job interview and came out.

239 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:06,120 Yeah, well, once I'd said it out loud I felt like I probably had to go away and do it. And just so I'm probably glad I did.

240 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,480 noe as you said, it went onto to do quite well. Say Happy Days.

241 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,930 I always like to end on kind of a twofold note, which is.

242 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:28,500 In terms of the reality of being an academic and making that transition from being a Ph.D. student to to a lecturer.

243 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:38,480 What do you wish that you knew or what advice do you wish you'd been given before you made that transition?

244 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:47,720 That is a good question. I mean, I think one thing I'm really at this point, like I haven't

245 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:55,040 Explicitly said it, but I am aware that it is quite unusual to go straight from your PhD to an academic job and not do a postdoc.

246 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:01,400 So I know that like the majority of my colleagues, that is the route they took.

247 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:08,030 So I sort of skipped that stage, mostly because I think postdocs in creative writing just weren't really a thing at that point

248 00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:13,700 So it's just like a slightly different way. The discipline works. I think just harking back to our earlier conversation, to be honest,

249 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:20,540 I think the main thing I wish people had told me is a just just take a punch, just like if something comes off,

250 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:26,180 like even if sometimes even now when we're advertising jobs or other institutions,

251 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:32,540 advertising jobs, it might say creative writing, lecturer brackets, poetry, focus.

252 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:38,810 And you're thinking to yourself, oh, rats. I write short stories. So I'm not going to be I'm not going to be suitable for that.

253 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:43,970 Just apply. Just apply. You never know again. They might not get any good poetry people.

254 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,440 They might see your application and think,

255 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,350 actually this person can slot in here and we can just move some stuff around and cover the poetry stuff some other way.

256 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:55,970 I just think literally, as I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

257 00:25:55,970 --> 00:26:01,610 And then finally, just to reiterate that, like when it comes to the application and the interview process,

258 00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:05,930 if it is a question of just kind of brushing up on you're kind of university speak

259 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,360 and trying to get your head around exactly what they're going to ask you,

260 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,540 just talk to your supervisors or other lecturers who've been through this, because that was honestly that was a game changer.

261 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:20,480 I can still remember the cafe in East London where I had lunch with one of my supervisors,

262 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,910 and she walked me through all these key terms and was able to predict all the questions they would ask me.

263 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,970 And if it weren't for that brunch, like I would have been nowhere.

264 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:36,500 But because she had so kindly prepped me and was able to anticipate exactly the kind of notes that I would need to hit, like I got the job.

265 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,910 So I just think don't be afraid to kind of ask for advice from people who have been

266 00:26:40,910 --> 00:26:46,000 through it and who know exactly what what buttons are going to need to press.

267 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:54,460 Thank you so much to Ruth for taking the time to talk to me. I thought there was so much in there in terms of advice about applying for academic jobs.

268 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,540 That's really, really pertinent.

269 00:26:55,540 --> 00:27:06,190 And I've actually created an infographic to go alongside the podcast that capture some of that really, really fabulous insight.

270 00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:22,046 And that's it for this episode. Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.