Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. David Musgrove, Publisher at Immediate Media Co.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter doctoral college

2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:22,000 I'm Kelly Preece, researcher development manager in the doctoral college at the University of Exeter.

3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,000 And I'll be your host today. Hello.

4 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Hi. Hi. OK. So my name is Dave Musgrove and I studied here at Exeter.

5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:41,000 I did my B.A. here in archaeology and I went on to do a PhD in the archaeology department.

6 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:49,000 There was a year in between times when I went out and worked for a few companies doing various temping jobs.

7 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:57,000 But I came back. I was very, very grateful to be asked back and be given a funded opportunity to do a PhD

8 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:06,000 All about the mediaeval landscape archaeology of the Peet Moors of the Somerset Levels a title I remember well from doing it.

9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:13,000 And I did my PhD in three years and then I left and did not carry on into academia.

10 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:27,000 So the my career since then has been I've been essentially working in the media, specifically in magazine publishing,

11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:36,000 but also latterly in online publishing because of the realities of the print magazine publishing world.

12 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And the fact that online is is clearly an important place in which publishing happens.

13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:47,000 So how did I get into that role?

14 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Well. So whilst I was doing my PhD It became fairly clear to me that I probably wasn't going to become an academic.

15 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000 So I think it was really in the second year of my PhD, actually, that I thought I ought to be thinking about what else I could be doing.

16 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,000 So I chatted to my supervisor and said that I was thinking I was quite interested in publishing.

17 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:21,000 I've been doing some work for her, editing some of her manuscripts and doing some page, lay out some of her books.

18 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:28,000 So I'd been developing some skills. There getting a bit of cash and that had sparked a bit of interest to me.

19 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:37,000 So she suggested I go along to the University Press here at Exeter and see if they had any volunteering work experience opportunities,

20 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:44,000 which I duly did. And and I enjoyed that and must have be reasonably proficient because they offered me some part time work.

21 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:50,000 They're just doing general admin and a little bit of light editing.

22 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:56,000 So I did that for the latter part of my PhD

23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 And I met somebody there who had some contacts in the magazine publishing world.

24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:09,000 So when I finished my Ph.D., she very kindly put me in touch with some people at a company called Future Publishing,

25 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:17,000 which is based in Bath, which produces lots of, still going, produces, lots of computer magazines and other things.

26 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:27,000 And I had also, whilst I was in my PhD, I had taken an interest in the Internet, which at the time I was doing my PhD.

27 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 That was a few years ago the Internet was only really starting off and I learnt how

28 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:42,000 to do HTML coding and I was able to get a job on a magazine about the Internet.

29 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Well, I applied for it. And with the contacts that I had been given by this person at the University press, I had a little bit of a step in.

30 00:03:52,000 --> 00:04:01,000 And so I got a job while working for as a very base layer level on this magazine for a couple of years.

31 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:14,000 I was very lucky to get on a training programme there for magazine journalism, and that got me into into the world of of magazines.

32 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:21,000 I worked on various other computer and Internet magazines at Future Publishing for a few years and then

33 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 heard about a History magazine launching at a rival company in Bristol called Origin Publishing.

34 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:36,000 So I applied for a job there. Got it. And obviously played off my doctoral skills to get that.

35 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:44,000 And I've been with that company ever since. It's been through various guises and was bought by the BBC.

36 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:53,000 And I ended up working on BBC History magazine, which is a very popular History magazine, the most popular History magazine in the UK.

37 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,000 And I've essentially been working on that for the last few years,

38 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:05,000 as in various roles as the editor for about a decade and then subsequently as the publisher and content director.

39 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,000 So I'm now in a managerial capacity, but still within a media company.

40 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,000 So that's the story. Fantastic thank you so

41 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:24,000 You say things that spring to mind and about the importance of some of that.

42 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:33,000 Experiences you picked up alongside the PhD. So you talked about having had a year gap before and doing various like temping jobs.

43 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Were any of those things related to your subject area or to publishing or were they kind of just General? Nope

44 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,000 They were a variety of jobs, working in a postroom, working.

45 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:56,000 I ended up working for a market research company, and I think we'd probably be described as a graduate level job, as a market research executive.

46 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,000 Which to be honest I didn't particularly enjoy.

47 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:07,000 And that was what led me to think, well, maybe I'll have another crack at academia for a bit.

48 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 I think all those all those positions, you know, you can pull out some skills from them,

49 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,000 some experience which is helpful in getting the first real job that you want to do.

50 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:30,000 And definitely, I think for anyone who's looking to enter the job market, you know, you know, in a professional capacity,

51 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:39,000 you need to draw on any any possible skills you can think of from from Part-Time work or temporary work that you've done and just,

52 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,000 you know, make sure that you can you can flag up one thing that you learnt from that.

53 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,000 So when I worked in a postroom for instance sure, I would have said that it helped me develop my people skills because I was dealing

54 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000 with a lot of a lot of um trubulent individuals who wanted their post

55 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,000 I don't remember exactly what I said. But, you know, there were you can always find something.

56 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:09,000 Some even from the most uninspiring sort of job. You can always find something that she can allude to in an interview or in a CV.

57 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:16,000 So when you were applying for those that the first role and at the at Future publishing in Bath

58 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:24,000 you talked about kind of drawing in quite a wide range of interests. And obviously you're relying quite heavily on your writing and editing skills.

59 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:36,000 And what else did you draw on in applying and by doing the role in particular in regards to having done a PhD, having done a research degree?

60 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Well, I think one of the one of the things that I particularly draw on for that first role was the was the fact that it wasn't specifically related to

61 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:52,000 my PhD but that I done during my studies, which was learning to code websites,

62 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:59,000 which only had the opportunity to do because I had some time in my you know, in my in my research calendar.

63 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,000 And there were some facilities here to enable me to do that.

64 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:15,000 So I was clearly able to draw on that, to give me this sort of specialism that they were interested in for that particular magazine.

65 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 In general, I'm sure I would have said, and I would have meant it,

66 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:34,000 that my my doctoral studies had given me an overarching sense of responsibility in the

67 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000 understanding of the importance of personal responsibility in all aspects of work.

68 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,000 And I would have played quite heavily on the fact that I've shown that I have the

69 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,000 ability to do a project and carry it through to completion on my own volition.

70 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:00,000 And I think that's me. That's one of the really big things you can say from from from doctoral research is to say,

71 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,000 you know, you clearly have the capacity for independent work.

72 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 What you need to then do is to demonstrate that you also have the capacity and the flexibility

73 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:16,000 to work in a team environment where you're not working solely to your own agenda.

74 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 And that's probably one of the things I think maybe is a more difficult aspect for people coming from transitioning out of academia into the business

75 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:31,000 world or or even into into the public sector is to demonstrate that you have

76 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:36,000 the facility to work in an office environment rather than just on your own.

77 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,000 And there are numerous ways to do that.

78 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:46,000 You can allude back to your employment experience if you've worked in a, you know, had a temporary job in an office or in a pub or both, which I did.

79 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Then you can demonstrate that. But I think that's quite important.

80 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,000 I think that's a start is a potential stumbling block for people who who see you may be actually on to see.

81 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 They think, well, that's great. Can they can they work in an office?

82 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Yeah. And I do think and we know from research that's quite prevalent perception of but from employers,

83 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:16,000 of people coming from academia or having done the PhD, it's the idea that that quite solitary and detail oriented,

84 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:24,000 very focussed on themselves and their own work and perhaps lack those kind of team working and interpersonal skills and increasingly with the kind of.

85 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:33,000 Environments that we have in the university and from shared office space to some of the leadership roles are available to our students.

86 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Like being a PGR representative or various different things. Actually, there's, you know, even just organising a conference with a group of people.

87 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,000 There's some real opportunities to pick up on and draw in those skills.

88 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Yeah, I'd say that's super important. I don't think for one moment think that doctoral candidates or PhD students are lonesome.

89 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:01,000 Weirdos No, I wasn't. Maybe I was, you know, but I think that is that soon.

90 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,000 I think you're right. That is a perception from employers that that's something that some perhaps goes with the territory.

91 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:14,000 And I think there are, as you say, there are lots of ways that you can demonstrate that you're not that you have team working skills.

92 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,000 You just need to make sure that you've thought about that and you've got some answers,

93 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,000 but not down pat that that's that's going to alleviate that concern.

94 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Do you think they for somebody that's been through that process for also thinking, you know, where you are now as an employer and as a manager?

95 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Are there other areas that you would see that you think a particular kind of stumbling

96 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:39,000 blocks are people who are looking to move from doing PhD to beyond academia?

97 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:50,000 I suppose there's always the sense that is, it is the person who's kind of who's coming to you.

98 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Are they actually interested in the role you're doing or are they simply because they haven't been able to get an academic job?

99 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:05,000 And I think that is quite a thing that would be a concern for some employers to think, well, you know this person.

100 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,000 They've gone down. They've gone this far down a route of research.

101 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:16,000 Why aren't they weren't they carry on? Weren't they doing what one assumes they wanted to do?

102 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,000 So I think that's key. Again, is easy to counter that.

103 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,000 You just need to think about it. You just need to be clear about what you're doing and you need to express.

104 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Well, this is this goes for any job.

105 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,000 You need to have a very good reason why you want the job and you need to be keen and enthusiastic and have a good answer.

106 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:39,000 I mean, if you're in in an interview situation and you're not asked why you want the job, then that's a bit odd.

107 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,000 I've never been in an interview, not been asked. So you have to expect it and you have to have a good answer.

108 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:50,000 And and you have to be able to demonstrate that you really want that job.

109 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,000 And perhaps it builds on what you did in your in your doctoral studies.

110 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:01,000 Perhaps it's perhaps it's some in some way linked to or if it's completely ensconsed then that's fine.

111 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,000 But you just need to demonstrate that you are fully committed to that.

112 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,000 And the reason why you are no longer carrying on academia is whatever it is.

113 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:19,000 And just make sure you've got that nailed down, say, just picking up on it.

114 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:26,000 What was it like for you to do those three really intensive years on that one project

115 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:33,000 and then to leave that project for also research and for a certain amount of time,

116 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,000 history and archaeology behind me on something completely different? Did you find that difficult?

117 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,000 Did you find it quite exciting?

118 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:56,000 So I was I was very pleased to put away my books about mediaeval Peet Moors and my struggles with the paleo graphy of mediaeval Latin.

119 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Glastonbury Abbey rolls briefly.

120 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:12,000 I was pleased. And then I was yeah, I was I was pretty gutted that I hadn't hadn't carried on with it.

121 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:20,000 But with the wave, a realisation of a practical realised realisation that I wasn't gonna be a great academic.

122 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000 I think I sort of clocked that that, you know, in seminars.

123 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,000 I wasn't the person coming up with the, you know, the really insightful grasp of the topics and stuff.

124 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:37,000 So I was aware that I was never gonna become a great professor.

125 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:44,000 But, yeah, I was it was I was sad that I wasn't or wasn't involved in that environment anymore.

126 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 But on the flip side, it was a really, really interesting role.

127 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,000 I was really fascinated in what I was doing. I was learning a lot of skills.

128 00:14:51,000 --> 00:15:01,000 I was under a completely different sort of pressure. I mean, I've been under a long, grinding pressure to get to the end of the of the PhD

129 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 And then I was immediately shipped and it was pretty much immediate I didn't take a break.

130 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:16,000 And I was skint pretty pretty much straight into into this job, which which was brilliant because I needed work and money and a new new focus.

131 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 I think if I hadn't had that, then that might have been worse.

132 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 If I'd just been sat around thinking, oh God, I've done this. PhD

133 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Now, I've got nothing. I was I was quite a long way behind my peers in terms of salary and position, which was a bit difficult.

134 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,000 But some, you know, things tend to equalise out.

135 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,000 So I wouldn't I wouldn't worry about that too much. But it was yeah.

136 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:53,000 In terms of deadlines, it was like so I'd come from this long, long deadline into having a deadline every day,

137 00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:04,000 week, month, and it was unique sort of pressure really exciting. Working with a bunch of people who were really nice and who were all one of the great

138 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000 things was they were just all really interested in the fact that I done a PhF and,

139 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,000 you know, I was politely mocked for being a doctor in the house.

140 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000 And I think you'd kind of you do have to accept laughs or traded on that over the years.

141 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000 You know, that the doctors here I. Now how I'm using.

142 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,000 So but, you know, it was it was it was actually a really interesting experience.

143 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:38,000 And, yeah, it was fun. So you mentioned about kind of entering in and being behind your peers in terms of salary, but that equalising out over time.

144 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Is that because you found that you progressed quicker even though you went in at a lower level?

145 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,000 I mean, I don't actually know. I feel quite comfortable in one day and.

146 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:58,000 Yeah, and and what I'm learning now, and that's that's fine, because I think I did progressed pretty quickly.

147 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,000 I think I was pretty I was keen. I was enthusiastic and I wanted to get on with stuff.

148 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000 And there was probably people who didn't quite have that sense of urgency.

149 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:17,000 And so that was so that was actually I was released what was good. And I pushed myself forward, you know, and I pushed for promotions.

150 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:24,000 I insisted on promotions. I said, I'm doing this on, I'm really good and you need to give me a promotion.

151 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,000 And yeah. And I got something.

152 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:40,000 And then I guess when I blundered back into a role that was closer to my research studies, though actually still some distance.

153 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 Yeah. And then I was able to play back off that.

154 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:53,000 But now that academic background. Did that give me more of a platform for Payrise?

155 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,000 I, I don't know. But I think it is certainly helped me in my career.

156 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:08,000 And I've I've I've I've used the fact that I've done the research to to make a lot of contacts and to push myself forward.

157 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,000 And so so I see I see practical benefits there.

158 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:23,000 But I'm reasonably unique space in terms of of my career path going from academia and then finding something that's a little bit similar to it.

159 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,000 But but actually still quite different. Yes. Say, you mentioned a couple of things partly.

160 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,000 And I wanted to pick up on you mentioned about making contacts,

161 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:42,000 and various different things that obviously that was really fundamental for you in getting that first that first role.

162 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 What would you experience like of going through that interview process?

163 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And like throughout your career, how how fundamental have you found that kind of sense of contacts and networks to be in terms

164 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,000 of moving forward or moving sideways or just essentially changing roles or changing path?

165 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:10,000 I mean, you know, you would like the world to not be somewhere where you get by, by who you know.

166 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:18,000 But reality is that is helpful to have people who can put in a good word if you say this person's good or work.

167 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,000 And and that certainly helps. Yeah.

168 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,000 I'm very grateful to that first colleague who I mean, they didn't didn't get me the job.

169 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,000 They just they just, um, they just put me in touch with somebody and, um, put my name in the frame.

170 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:41,000 And that was that was that was that was much appreciated. And also I just, you know, maybe I wouldn't have applied for that role if I hadn't been.

171 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:47,000 So if it hadn't been mentioned to me, that  there was the role going at the interview.

172 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,000 I mean, I think I think I've, in all interviews,

173 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000 always found the fact that I have PhD to be useful just in the sense that it does give you a conversation piece.

174 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:04,000 And they say, you know, I see you've done a PhD and you say, yeah, I was on the mediaeval exploitations of Peet Moors in the Somerset levels.

175 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:11,000 That sounds very boring, doesn't it? And and and and then but you can then say, well, I can say sorry.

176 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Mildly interesting about. Oh. But it just gives you it makes you sound Slightly more interesting than other people.

177 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:24,000 And I think that is useful in a in an interview environment. You do need to sound interesting.

178 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:32,000 And that gives you that gives you a little bit more ammunition. So if you have traded on that in every interview environment.

179 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,000 I mean it. I don't recall doing much of interview practise when I was studying.

180 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:50,000 So I think my kind of imagine my initial interview was a great success, but it was it was enough to get me the job.

181 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:58,000 Maybe I should have done more interview practise. And I'm not sure I'm not sure how far that's the thing for positions these days to do.

182 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:05,000 But I think that should be useful to make sure that you are doing a bit of that and have an idea about what might well might come your way.

183 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 Yeah, there's quite a lot of support that if any institution through my team,

184 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 but also through the career service about things like preparing for interviews,

185 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:21,000 particularly if you get how much experience, job interviews or you have any particular anxieties around them, what they might be like.

186 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000 And we actually have them. We have this piece of software called Interview Stream where you can set up your own questions

187 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,000 and kind of record yourself and do practise and get feedback on all sorts of things.

188 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,000 It is really interesting to be very disconcerting for me to watch myself, but it does help people.

189 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Would definitely, definitely think those sorts of things. Everyone should take advantage of those.

190 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000 Even if you you're brilliant interviewere then I still think you should have a go and just

191 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,000 I would just point out that fact that you have something interesting to say.

192 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,000 So do make sure you and it will make you feel more at ease if you could.

193 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,000 You know, if you have half a minute to say something that you are a real expert, take pleasure on don't take an hour, obviously.

194 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,000 But just say something that sounds interesting.

195 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:10,000 And it is if you to make the whoever is interviewing you think, oh, that's somebody whom I might learn something from, who I might enjoy being,

196 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:19,000 you know, who isn't a strange weirdo who who actually has something interesting say and I guess is something really stand out about that,

197 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 because it's sort only it's a slightly more unusual thing to be to have people coming in

198 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:32,000 who do have a PhD or who have that level of expertise in something very specific.

199 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,000 You know, you talked about that role and going on a training programme.

200 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,000 So can you tell me a bit about what that was on and how that came about?

201 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:50,000 But also what I think what it was like to go back to learning that sense once you've started a professional job.

202 00:22:50,000 --> 00:23:00,000 I mean, that was it was brilliant. It was basically a run a year long training programme for trainee journalists, essentially.

203 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,000 And every week there was a half a day out for a few,

204 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:16,000 a group of ten of us to go and be taught stuff by professional journalists and editors, which was actually fantastic.

205 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 And I embraced it and and and loved it.

206 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,000 And it was it was very different because of that.

207 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,000 We have direct learning. It wasn't you know, I wasn't researching.

208 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:35,000 I was being told stuff and being given tasks and, you know, being being told to told what to do and then trying to get ahead.

209 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:42,000 So I suppose. That you might you might think you're better than that.

210 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:51,000 If you've got to go to PhD, why? Well, I've already done all this training. But, you know, humility is a good thing in general.

211 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,000 And in life. And I was. No, I didn't think that I thought was fascinating.

212 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,000 And I realised I really needed to understand things. And I really needed to learn how to do the job if I wanted to progress

213 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:12,000 I was very grateful for it. And it was it was excellent, I think, you know, government's phrase of lifelong learning or whatever.

214 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,000 But it's true. You need to you do need to constantly be trying to progress and learn things.

215 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000 And if you're not doing that something, you you'll get bored anyway.

216 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:27,000 But but you do need to do that for your career progression, whatever.

217 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000 So you talked about doing some editing for your supervisor, you know, for a fact they were working.

218 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000 And so you and you worked for the university press.

219 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,000 You obviously have some kind of experience with publishing, albeit quite different kind of publishing.

220 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:52,000 And when you you're doing that training course, how different did you find the approach to things like writing and editing and perhaps researching an

221 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,000 article or a story where you might have used those fundamental skills when you were doing your PhD?

222 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000 But how different did you find the use of them in that context?

223 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Or did you find you kind of needed to relearn how to do those things in a different way?

224 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Yeah, probably because, well, the stuff those doing for my supervisor was to her standards, to her to to her convention.

225 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,000 So that was fine. I was just doing on what I was told and and it was very useful, interesting learning experience.

226 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,000 And then everyone has different conventions and and brings.

227 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:40,000 But I think specifically in terms of the question of research and and using your research skills, what you need to do is,

228 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,000 you know, work environment is you need to be able to stop once you've done it, once you've found something found out.

229 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:50,000 I once thought we'd done something that's that's that's enough in a day.

230 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:57,000 It's never enough. You always the next rabbit hole to go down in the next journal article to look at the next

231 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:03,000 think to have a look at And you're trying to basically understand everything as much as you can about whatever it is you're looking,

232 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:10,000 whereas particularly in a journalistic environment, if you can't do that, you've got half a half day, half an hour to do something.

233 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000 You've just got to get to the bottom of it as quickly as you can and be happy

234 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000 with that and and develop a sense of pragmatism if you haven't got one already.

235 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,000 Did you find that quite difficult and moving from the kind of longer scale project

236 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,000 and longer scale questioning to something that is quite discrete and quite quick?

237 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:34,000 Yeah, I understand, but I had no choice because you've got deadline and you've got to you've got to deliver.

238 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,000 I mean, there's you kind of I was I was really worried about all the stuff I did for a little while

239 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:47,000 I thought, well i was only given this an hour. Listen, I can't possibly this can't be right.

240 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,000 But you just got to rolle with it and trust that you've done as best you can.

241 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:59,000 So you talked about obviously going on to a history based magazine.

242 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:06,000 So you're closer to the kind of background you had in your PhD and that you've moved on to a more managerial role now

243 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:14,000 So thinking about yourself as, I guess as an employer.

244 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:25,000 What if you had a PhD got you or someone that's just come into the PhD interviewing for a similar role, kind of perhaps where you started?

245 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,000 You and your team, your organisation, what what are you looking for from them?

246 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000 So I suppose it's a bit different, in fact, of my background.

247 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,000 I would be I'd probably look more favourably on someone who's gonna see them, perhaps someone who hasn't.

248 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,000 And I think you do need to view.

249 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Is it. That's it. But I mean. I interviewed yesterday for for a role and the person I interviewed had all the skills.

250 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,000 I mean, clearly, you need to demonstrate you've got the skills for the job.

251 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:07,000 So that was fun. But she was also. Shouldn't she?

252 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:20,000 She I think she had an MA She she was enthusiastic, keen and had.

253 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Enough of a sense of how to describe it.

254 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:36,000 She wasn't afraid to stop and ask for a bit of time to answer questions, so she was confident enough in herself to say, I need to.

255 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:44,000 I just need to address this properly. So I saw a good level of maturity in her.

256 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:52,000 She's quite young. And I think as a as a precondition, you could you could you could trade on that quite well.

257 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,000 You could trade on that sense of maturity and sense of of self-worth,

258 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,000 self-knowledge without appearing to be some sort of braggart or something that you've you've done extended research.

259 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,000 And I think that that is a pitfall you definitely don't want to come across as someone who's, you know better than anyone else.

260 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,000 And that's clearly would be a bad. Yes. So that kind of elitist.

261 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that. But definitely, you know, I'm looking for someone who has who has great enthusiasm.

262 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,000 I want somebody who wants the job. I want somebody who had the same sense of urgency as I had when I was 23

263 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:38,000 24. Looking for a job. I want somebody who's going to be banging on my door saying, I want a promotion.

264 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,000 I want to be better. I want to do this training course. You want those people in your in your in your teams.

265 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:51,000 You want people you don't want people to just sit around waiting for wait for the bell.

266 00:29:51,000 --> 00:30:00,000 So so enthusiasm is is there is the absolute thing I look for, you know, and and confidence.

267 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,000 I think confidence is is is it is it is great. So in an interview and.

268 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,000 So. So you make sure you go out and.

269 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:18,000 We've got any students listening who are thinking about going into into magazine publishing or online publishing as you are now.

270 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,000 What advice would you give them in terms of perhaps some of the things to.

271 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,000 Do alongside their studies or that particular kind of volunteering experiences you think would

272 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:37,000 be useful or their particular skill sets that you think they really need to focus on developing.

273 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,000 So if you're at Exeter, I would expect you to be writing for expose

274 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:54,000 I would expect you to be contributing to that to that magazine in some format.

275 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,000 You should have a blog. You should be you should be blogging. You should be on social media.

276 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:08,000 I should be able to find you on Twitter and Facebook and not think that you're completely wild individual.

277 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:17,000 But then I should I should be able to see that you are looking to promote yourself in those in those environments.

278 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:28,000 You probably we're doing a podcast. I mean, those are all the things that a modern journalist needs to be doing.

279 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,000 So I would I would advise you to be developing in all those areas.

280 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,000 On top of that, there are numerous opportunities to do a bit of work experience or internship or,

281 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,000 you know, apply for competitions, writing competitions, that sort of thing.

282 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,000 You know, I think the person I interviewed yesterday had won a poetry competition

283 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,000 So those sorts of things, I think they are they just make you think, but they are bothered

284 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,000 They are interested that they are enthusiastic. They do care about this and they have a passion for it.

285 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:04,000 And that's those would all be things that I would I would definitely try and do.

286 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:12,000 So, yes, you need to show that you that you are actually interested in writing and editing if you are trying to get into a media career.

287 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:19,000 And that sense of enthusiasm and passion has come across really strongly in all of the answers you've given,

288 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:30,000 actually, that one of the fundamental things is about. Being interested and having that sense of motivation to move forward and find out more.

289 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:39,000 And I certainly think from my experience working with our PhD students on our research degree students, that's something they have in droves,

290 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:47,000 you know, because you

290 00:32:39,000 -->289 00:32:30,000 -->288 00:32:19,000 -->287 00:32:12,000 -->286 00:32:04,000 -->285 00:31:57,000 -->284 00:31:52,000 -->283 00:31:48,000 -->282 00:31:43,000 -->281 00:31:39,000 -->280 00:31:34,000 -->279 00:31:28,000 -->278 00:31:17,000 -->277 00:31:08,000 -->276 00:30:59,000 -->275 00:30:54,000 -->274 00:30:42,000 -->273 00:30:37,000 -->272 00:30:30,000 -->271 00:30:24,000 -->270 00:30:18,000 -->269 00:30:10,000 -->268 00:30:06,000 -->267 00:30:00,000 -->266 00:29:51,000 -->265 00:29:44,000 -->264 00:29:38,000 -->263 00:29:31,000 -->262 00:29:24,000 -->261 00:29:15,000 -->260 00:29:10,000 -->259 00:29:05,000 -->258 00:28:58,000 -->257 00:28:52,000 -->256 00:28:44,000 -->255 00:28:36,000 -->254 00:28:25,000 -->253 00:28:20,000 -->252 00:28:07,000 -->251 00:28:00,000 -->250 00:27:56,000 -->249 00:27:45,000 -->248 00:27:40,000 -->247 00:27:34,000 -->246 00:27:30,000 -->245 00:27:25,000 -->244 00:27:14,000 -->243 00:27:06,000 -->242 00:26:59,000 -->241 00:26:53,000 -->240 00:26:47,000 -->239 00:26:40,000 -->238 00:26:34,000 -->237 00:26:28,000 -->236 00:26:23,000 -->235 00:26:18,000 -->234 00:26:14,000 -->233 00:26:10,000 -->232 00:26:03,000 -->231 00:25:57,000 -->230 00:25:50,000 -->229 00:25:45,000 -->228 00:25:40,000 -->227 00:25:30,000 -->226 00:25:26,000 -->225 00:25:19,000 -->224 00:25:05,000 -->223 00:25:01,000 -->222 00:24:58,000 -->221 00:24:52,000 -->220 00:24:42,000 -->219 00:24:36,000 -->218 00:24:33,000 -->217 00:24:27,000 -->216 00:24:21,000 -->215 00:24:17,000 -->214 00:24:12,000 -->213 00:24:03,000 -->212 00:23:56,000 -->211 00:23:51,000 -->210 00:23:42,000 -->209 00:23:35,000 -->208 00:23:26,000 -->207 00:23:23,000 -->206 00:23:19,000 -->205 00:23:16,000 -->204 00:23:06,000 -->203 00:23:00,000 -->202 00:22:50,000 -->201 00:22:43,000 -->200 00:22:38,000 -->199 00:22:32,000 -->198 00:22:25,000 -->197 00:22:19,000 -->196 00:22:10,000 -->195 00:22:02,000 -->194 00:22:01,000 -->193 00:21:54,000 -->192 00:21:50,000 -->191 00:21:46,000 -->190 00:21:41,000 -->189 00:21:36,000 -->188 00:21:31,000 -->187 00:21:26,000 -->186 00:21:21,000 -->185 00:21:13,000 -->184 00:21:09,000 -->183 00:21:05,000 -->182 00:20:58,000 -->181 00:20:50,000 -->180 00:20:38,000 -->179 00:20:32,000 -->178 00:20:24,000 -->177 00:20:18,000 -->176 00:20:11,000 -->175 00:20:04,000 -->174 00:19:57,000 -->173 00:19:51,000 -->172 00:19:47,000 -->171 00:19:41,000 -->170 00:19:32,000 -->169 00:19:27,000 -->168 00:19:22,000 -->167 00:19:18,000 -->166 00:19:10,000 -->165 00:19:02,000 -->164 00:18:55,000 -->163 00:18:47,000 -->162 00:18:42,000 -->161 00:18:33,000 -->160 00:18:29,000 -->159 00:18:23,000 -->158 00:18:12,000 -->157 00:18:08,000 -->156 00:17:58,000 -->155 00:17:53,000 -->154 00:17:46,000 -->153 00:17:40,000 -->152 00:17:28,000 -->151 00:17:24,000 -->150 00:17:17,000 -->149 00:17:10,000 -->148 00:17:03,000 -->147 00:16:58,000 -->146 00:16:51,000 -->145 00:16:45,000 -->144 00:16:38,000 -->143 00:16:29,000 -->142 00:16:22,000 -->141 00:16:16,000 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00:11:01,000 -->89 00:10:54,000 -->88 00:10:44,000 -->87 00:10:40,000 -->86 00:10:33,000 -->85 00:10:24,000 -->84 00:10:16,000 -->83 00:10:08,000 -->82 00:10:01,000 -->81 00:09:57,000 -->80 00:09:51,000 -->79 00:09:46,000 -->78 00:09:38,000 -->77 00:09:36,000 -->76 00:09:31,000 -->75 00:09:25,000 -->74 00:09:16,000 -->73 00:09:10,000 -->72 00:09:05,000 -->71 00:09:00,000 -->70 00:08:52,000 -->69 00:08:46,000 -->68 00:08:40,000 -->67 00:08:34,000 -->66 00:08:20,000 -->65 00:08:15,000 -->64 00:08:02,000 -->63 00:07:59,000 -->62 00:07:52,000 -->61 00:07:44,000 -->60 00:07:36,000 -->59 00:07:24,000 -->58 00:07:16,000 -->57 00:07:09,000 -->56 00:07:00,000 -->55 00:06:56,000 -->54 00:06:50,000 -->53 00:06:44,000 -->52 00:06:39,000 -->51 00:06:30,000 -->50 00:06:18,000 -->49 00:06:13,000 -->48 00:06:07,000 -->47 00:06:01,000 -->46 00:05:56,000 -->45 00:05:46,000 -->44 00:05:40,000 -->43 00:05:33,000 -->42 00:05:24,000 -->41 00:05:15,000 -->40 00:05:10,000 -->39 00:05:05,000 -->38 00:04:56,000 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