Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Celia Butler, Senior Applications Engineer at Synopsys Inc.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,870 --> 00:00:23,530 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College   2 00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:27,580 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Beyond Your Research Degree.   3 00:00:27,580 --> 00:00:34,570 I'm Kelly Preevce And today, I'll be talking to Dr Celia Butler, who is currently senior applications engineer at Synopsis,   4 00:00:34,570 --> 00:00:41,380 having graduated with her PhD in physics in 2012. Celia, you happy to introduce yourself?   5 00:00:41,380 --> 00:00:53,080 Hello, my name's Celia Butler and I did my PhD in Microwave Metamaterials in the electro magnetic materials group at the University of Exeter   6 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:58,870 which is part of the physics department or it was at the time. And now I work for synopsis   7 00:00:58,870 --> 00:01:03,740 I'm a senior applications engineer with the simplewear support team.   8 00:01:03,740 --> 00:01:14,370 And what I do is I provide support for a software package that allows you to take 3D image data and like scans from MRI,   9 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:24,670 and CT and turn it into a computer model and you can do all sorts of things with that computer model from 3D printing to finite   10 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:34,030 element analysis all the way through to just simple visualisations to learn something about that data that you're inspecting.   11 00:01:34,030 --> 00:01:42,490 Amazing. So can you tell me a little bit about the transition from doing your research degree into the current role?   12 00:01:42,490 --> 00:01:50,050 Did you have any were there any jobs that you took in between or was it a straight move?   13 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:59,860 Yes. So when I left my PhD, I actually went into a job which sort of spanned the gap between academia and industry.   14 00:01:59,860 --> 00:02:10,510 So officially, it was a postdoc role, but I was actually more of a research and development engineer with a pre-spin out company.   15 00:02:10,510 --> 00:02:15,760 So it was still part of the university and it took on a role.   16 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,120 kind of like a technical consultancy?   17 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:30,610 So like an R&D consultancy role. And my specific area was to look at improving radio frequency identification tagging.   18 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:38,690 So RFID tagging is now quite popular, popular. You see it all over the place in tags, in clothes shops.   19 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:44,440 RFID tags are embedded into shoes. When you buy them all sorts of things.   20 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:50,860 But the specific area that I was looking at was how to tag structures that have a lot of   21 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:56,320 metal in them because essentially they're an antenna and when you place them on metal,   22 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:02,290 they don't work very well. And I was looking at tagging RFID circuit boards.   23 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:08,890 So these circuit boards have very high value and you really try to understand what you can do.   24 00:03:08,890 --> 00:03:16,420 So I worked with a few different people locally to try and address this problem,   25 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:22,490 using some of the knowledge from my PhD, but also past experience from before that as well.   26 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:32,320 And after that role, I left it and started a new position for a company called Subten Systems.   27 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:40,660 Now, this was a very small Start-Up company, possibly the best and most exciting research I have ever done.   28 00:03:40,660 --> 00:03:46,480 It was looking to create wireless Ethernet bridges.   29 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:52,780 What that means is point to point, a transmission of data, at very, very high frequencies.   30 00:03:52,780 --> 00:04:03,910 So in the millimetre wave region. And this was so exciting because I was quite new to the R&D world and I was given a lot of responsibility,   31 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:08,770 but also worked in an amazing team and we just got things done.   32 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:15,910 It was fantastic. But unfortunately, like a lot of start-ups, it didn't make it.   33 00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:22,800 And I had to make the decision to leave. Possibly the hardest decision of my life.   34 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,390 But yes. So I left subten systems and that fantastic team.   35 00:04:28,390 --> 00:04:33,460 And then I found a job in the centre of Exeter working for at the time, simplewear   36 00:04:33,460 --> 00:04:42,580 which were, again, a small company, not really a Start-Up, but about 30, 40 people.   37 00:04:42,580 --> 00:04:49,060 And from there. This company was bought out by synopsis.   38 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:54,660 But my job role has stayed pretty consistent. Most of the way through.   39 00:04:54,660 --> 00:05:09,100 And I actually I'm able to use a lot of my experience from my career, but also interests outside of work to perform my job, which is it's just a.   40 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:13,810 Varied and keeps me on my toes most of the time.   41 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:20,610 That sounds amazing. And in a short space of time, you've worked in quite a lot of different.   42 00:05:20,610 --> 00:05:30,280 Different organisations. So what was it like making that transition from your phd into a.   43 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:40,560 Non-academic Role did. Did you always know you wanted a job outside of academia and doing research in industry or so?   44 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:51,050 I think when I did my PhD, I really enjoyed my time doing the research element before I did my PhD.   45 00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:53,390 I worked in industry for a few years.   46 00:05:53,390 --> 00:06:03,630 So I was very aware of what it was like to work in a team doing commercial R&D as opposed to quite academic research.   47 00:06:03,630 --> 00:06:11,390 And it is very different. And I preferred the industrial research, the kind of work.   48 00:06:11,390 --> 00:06:16,610 Working towards one product or one specific goal,   49 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:24,680 but also having the flexibility to change projects or move into different roles within the same organisation.   50 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:33,950 Whereas in a PhD, you're very focussed on your path, your route to completing whatever your project might be.   51 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:35,960 I didn't find the transition very hard.   52 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:46,520 Moving from academic research to sort of industrial R&D, I think, because it's something that I knew and I was comfortable with.   53 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:58,220 I was looking forward to moving back. I also had very good kind of time management skills during the PhD.   54 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:03,680 I viewed it more as a day to day job because of my past experience.   55 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,660 There is one exception for that, which was when I was writing up.   56 00:07:08,660 --> 00:07:15,080 When I wrote up, the time really went out the window. I was just working all the time, it seemed.   57 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,850 But after that, I was really able to relax into that role,   58 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:27,080 to work with lots and lots of different people and to really focus on a product, which is what we were aiming for.   59 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,720 So, yeah, that worked really well for me. So, yeah.   60 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:38,030 Can you say a little bit more about what it what it is about doing R&D work in industry that you prefer to academia.   61 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:48,200 Is it that kind of. Is it something to do with the pace. Is it the pace of it or is it the kind of clearer sense of product, and impact.   62 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:57,200 So I think industrial R&D has a clear focus, a clear aim.   63 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:09,860 But people work slightly differently. In my experience in commercial R&D compared to academic R&D or academic research, in academic research,   64 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:21,890 you are striving to understand every single little part of whatever your problem or area might be in commercial R&D,   65 00:08:21,890 --> 00:08:28,430 although you need to understand what's going on. There's a limit to how much detail you need to go into.   66 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:38,300 You need to be able to solve the problem. But you are working towards a different goal and that goal will come to an end and it will change.   67 00:08:38,300 --> 00:08:44,150 There will be a second level, another stage or something that you are building on.   68 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:51,560 You need to understand this area. Make a decision. Produce a product, whatever that might be, and then you move on.   69 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,820 It's also quite normal to have multiple projects going on at the same time.   70 00:08:55,820 --> 00:09:10,100 And for me, I need that that ability to be able to switch between projects to keep me fully invested and sort of just enjoying what I do.   71 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:14,510 I need lots of little things to dip in and out of just to keep me entertained.   72 00:09:14,510 --> 00:09:19,830 I guess. Yes, I absolutely know that feeling.   73 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:30,870 So you said about the time management skills that you developed during your PhD and how important they are to what you do now.   74 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:34,950 And certainly if you're working in lots of different projects, I can really see that.   75 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:44,730 What other skills and experiences have you taken from your PhD that have really helped you with an R&D role in industry?   76 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:52,590 I think the biggest thing that I learnt during the PhD, as opposed to other roles I've been in before,   77 00:09:52,590 --> 00:10:01,110 was to be able to take a big project and be able to divide it up into small chunks that seem more manageable,   78 00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:06,840 because I think when you start the PhD, it can be a little bit overwhelming because you've got this three,   79 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:12,290 four years plus and you've got to produce something at the end of it.   80 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:14,160 But I'm not really sure what that is.   81 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:28,980 So to be able to take that huge idea, chop it up and then manage yourself to be able to to achieve whatever that might be is really important.   82 00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:34,980 And then the other thing, the sort of skills that I learnt.   83 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:43,800 I did a course on how to read sounds ridiculous, but how to speed read, how to take academic papers and top and tail.   84 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:49,710 And that's been really useful in other projects that I've done because in industrial research,   85 00:10:49,710 --> 00:10:55,260 you haven't got loads of time to do a full literature review on most projects.   86 00:10:55,260 --> 00:11:04,260 You need to extract the information that you need. Put it together and then use it in whatever form that might be.   87 00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:10,380 The other thing I think was really important is how to present robustly.   88 00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:17,150 So I've never really had a problem with the actual presenting side of things.   89 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:24,390 But the questioning was something that was sort of really drilled into me during my PhD   90 00:11:24,390 --> 00:11:26,640 That you need to know your subject well enough.   91 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:35,100 You need to have done your research to be able to answer questions robustly and kind of stand up to someone standing up and saying,   92 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:39,270 oh, I'm not I'm not sure about this. Tell me more or I don't believe that.   93 00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:48,720 What's your evidence for it? And to be able to stand there and and defend the research that you've done and to present a reasoned argument.   94 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,890 And I think that was probably the biggest thing to take away.   95 00:11:52,890 --> 00:12:04,720 Yeah. So really, it it's project management. It's. Ability to read and synthesise information and presenting.   96 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:14,920 Yes, it's kind of a soft skills. I mean, obviously I learnt a lot of physics in my actual PhD   97 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,360 But I wouldn't say that I've applied much of that in my other roles.   98 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:25,240 It's more being those kind of soft skills that have been the most useful.   99 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:31,540 Yeah. And I think that's that's always what's really interesting about looking at careers beyond academia,   100 00:12:31,540 --> 00:12:34,510 because I think we get really entrenched in this idea that I.   101 00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:43,480 I need to be looking at something that's very specific to the very niche topic area I am working in, whereas actually.   102 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:50,650 When people are going to work in industry, that they're more using the working in the general subject area in some shape or form.   103 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:57,670 But it's those soft skills that become even more important because they're the ones that are transferable.   104 00:12:57,670 --> 00:13:07,060 Absolutely. And I can give you an example of that. So. Right. One of the first things that I did when I joined Simplewear   105 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:17,040 whereas it was then now synopsis was I had a Web meeting with someone who is using this software and they were doing knee replacement.   106 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:31,600 And now my PhD is a microwave metamaterials. I'm looking at electromagnetic interaction with materials and it has nothing to do with knees.   107 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:40,180 So very quickly, I have to understand the different parts that need to put the bones are called some of the key muscles or tendons.   108 00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:48,280 I had to understand how you perform in knee replacement so that I was roughly on the same level so that   109 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:54,610 we could talk in similar terms because there are terms that are specific to different industries.   110 00:13:54,610 --> 00:14:02,500 So I had to come up to speed very fast on all of that and then understand how this particular   111 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:08,800 customer wanted to use the software and what what the challenges were that they were facing.   112 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:16,270 And then I had to take all of that presented back to them in a Web meeting in under an hour.   113 00:14:16,270 --> 00:14:21,460 So very quickly, you're having to take a problem.   114 00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:32,300 Understand it. Do your research. Kind of problem solve along the way and then present it back and answer questions all in one.   115 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:39,370 So I think that would take about maybe between one and two days to complete the whole project.   116 00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:48,550 But at the same time, I had three or four other projects and sort of mini projects like that that I'd have to answer as well.   117 00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:53,200 And meetings and emails and all these other things. So it's really a bit of a juggling act.   118 00:14:53,200 --> 00:15:01,420 But you've got to focus on each problem, solve it, and then present it back to your customer and make sure that they're happy with that solution.   119 00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:09,670 Make sure that you have understood and solved whatever they're looking to work towards and make sure that it fits for them.   120 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:14,340 So it it's quite a quite large challenge, but it's really fun.   121 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:19,130 Yeah, and I think that there seems to be something there that's really about problem solving,   122 00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:28,410 but using your research skills and your creativity in finding solutions to your work problems.   123 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:34,710 And I think you draw on all your past experience in order to do that Problem-Solving.   124 00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:39,450 So in before I started the PhD, I worked in manufacturing.   125 00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:47,970 So there are lots of things that I learnt in terms of tolerances, in terms of manufacturing processes.   126 00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:57,030 So when I work with someone who's using additive manufacturing, I can relate to certain areas there as well.   127 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:01,930 And I bring that experience to help me to solve that.   128 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:06,030 So, yeah, there's lots of different areas that kind of draw together.   129 00:16:06,030 --> 00:16:15,550 But the PhD brings a skill set of tackling a very large project and helping you to form it all together.   130 00:16:15,550 --> 00:16:24,480 One of the things people get. We get feedback that our researchers are quite nervous about is the application process for.   131 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:34,830 Jobs outside of academia, because they're sort of the. Academic kind of job application promotions process feels very familiar.   132 00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:40,040 When you're in that environment, can you talk about your experience of.   133 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:51,640 Applying for jobs in. industry and specifically kind of how you talked about and framed, your research experience?   134 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:58,630 Yes, absolutely. So I was very lucky with the jobs that I went to.   135 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:03,580 Most of them, I had some connection to the company.   136 00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:11,220 And throughout my working career, I seem to have fallen into jobs rather than applied through the formal process.   137 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:21,310 So I would definitely say to any PhD tudents and create a network and tell people that you're looking for a job,   138 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:28,850 because the one that I got at Subten Systems, I found out through a guy that I used to go gliding with.   139 00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:33,010 He'd started at this company and they were looking down on and I was able to apply   140 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:37,930 and get a lot of things have kind of fallen into place through that network.   141 00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:48,310 I have done very few formal applications. Having said that, all my positions have involved some kind of interview.   142 00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:58,180 So I can certainly comment on that. I guess the key thing is to think about how you've applied your skills and   143 00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:04,540 any way that you can show that you can talk about how you've used that skill.   144 00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:09,750 So it could be that you.   145 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:15,510 Looked after a colleague's child, say, for a few hours.   146 00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:21,150 And that was very challenging for you. You can apply that situation and say this was a very stressful situation.   147 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:31,620 Not something that I'm familiar with. And this is how I managed it. That might not be particularly relevant to an industrial R&D engineering job,   148 00:18:31,620 --> 00:18:37,290 but they can see how when you went into a new situation, how you managed it.   149 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:48,450 And I think those how you can form an example, if you can draw on your PhD, if you can draw on your sort of formal experiences, that's great.   150 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:55,620 But if there's an area where you think importantly, where to go with this, look at your your life outside of work,   151 00:18:55,620 --> 00:19:00,840 outside of academia and think, are there examples that you can draw from there as well?   152 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:07,230 Because that's a really key area that people sometimes sometimes miss.   153 00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:12,640 I think the other thing about applications and interviews is.   154 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:23,890 It's almost always evidence based. So really try to give as many examples of how you fulfil the job.   155 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:32,590 Job skills and competencies which will be listed on the job description, try and like focus on those specifically.   156 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:38,520 And then you've got a stronger application. Are there particular things that you did?   157 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,760 So you said you talked about kind of the importance of forming those examples and those examples,   158 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:48,910 not having to be really specific to the role the industry that you're working in.   159 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:55,930 Are there things that you did during your OhD that weren't necessarily kind of just about the doing the research   160 00:19:55,930 --> 00:20:03,310 and writing the thesis that have been really useful to you as examples and job applications and interviews?   161 00:20:03,310 --> 00:20:11,080 Oh, that's a great question. So there are lots of things I did during my PhD   162 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:17,500 I travelled extensively as part of the PhD, which is something that I would definitely recommend to everybody.   163 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:23,800 And actually that travel led to multiple collaboration's.   164 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:34,250 Regarding my research. So that was extremely helpful in terms of outside of the actual PhD and the research environment.   165 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:42,450 And I was also a Brownie leader. So that's part of the Girlguiding structure.   166 00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:54,850 And that was something that kept me really rooted during the PhD because I was working with girls aged seven to 10 and they can be so challenging.   167 00:20:54,850 --> 00:20:57,340 They can really come up with so many questions.   168 00:20:57,340 --> 00:21:07,030 Things that you don't think about a child's mind is a fascinating array of ideas, and they're so inquisitive.   169 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:14,200 So that was really amazing. And I am quite lucky in that I was able to actually bring them into the physics building.   170 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:22,630 And we did a whole evening in the physics building with a little talk and we did some bridge building and and all sorts of things.   171 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:33,730 So that was that was really fantastic. I think I also did just after my PhD, I did some volunteering through girlguiding.   172 00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:37,720 So it was sustainable. Volunteering is what I called it.   173 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,830 Call it. I'm not a builder. I don't have any skills in that area.   174 00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:46,000 So I can't go and build houses for people or anything like that.   175 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:52,120 But we we ran a programme where we went out and asked the people what they were   176 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:58,150 looking for and actually what they wanted was something much more simple or simple,   177 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:02,740 something that I could deliver. Which was how to build CVs   178 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:11,900 How to present yourself to different people. And it was a very simplistic level, but that was something that we were we were able to do.   179 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:19,930 So that was fantastic. And as part of that, we also developed the girl guiding programme in the country with the leaders,   180 00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:30,160 very simple ideas that don't take lots of resources or money or time, but just ideas for things that they could do to to get more people involved.   181 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,250 So that's something that I often talk about in interviews,   182 00:22:33,250 --> 00:22:39,580 because it's something that also changed me as a person to understand that I finished my PhD.   183 00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:45,040 But actually I have a lot of skills that are useful to other people and I can   184 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:51,610 teach them in an informal way and about the world around them and how it works.   185 00:22:51,610 --> 00:22:55,870 I never really appreciated that before I went away.   186 00:22:55,870 --> 00:23:08,650 So that was really great. That's very interesting and how did you how did you balance doing that kind of activity alongside doing your PhD?   187 00:23:08,650 --> 00:23:11,590 I was quite lucky. We're part of a team.   188 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:25,130 So when my work load up for my academic workload was quite high, I was able to kind of step back from the brownie preparation for the sessions.   189 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:29,200 But when I was a little bit quieter, I could jump in and do more.   190 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:36,310 And what I really tried to do was make sure that every Monday night when it was the meeting, I was always there.   191 00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:40,810 And that was a kind of a non-negotiable aspect for me. That time was Brownie time.   192 00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:47,670 And that was it. Apart from obviously when I was travelling for conferences and and other such things.   193 00:23:47,670 --> 00:23:56,500 But I think that's all about teamwork. That's about communicating with the team that you have and understanding each other's pressures.   194 00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:04,300 One of the other ladies that runs it is a school teacher. So there are key aspects during the year which are particularly busy for her.   195 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:08,170 Another lady is a solicitor, so she has big projects.   196 00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:12,610 So sometimes it coincides that we we are all really busy.   197 00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:18,190 In which case we all do a little bit to contribute to what we need.   198 00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:22,900 Having said that, there's also a good aspect of just winging it,   199 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:31,600 turning up and just having some fun and nothing to planned and just having a couple of things in your back pocket that you can just get on with.   200 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,010 And I think that's that's really fun as well.   201 00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:42,440 I wouldn't want to do all the time, but that helps. And it is quite an important skill to have.   202 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,600 Like you say, it's not something that we would necessarily want to make.   203 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:56,530 The way that we operate on a daily basis, but quite often in in the working world and in your PhD, you do kind of have to just turn up and wing it.   204 00:24:56,530 --> 00:25:05,830 Absolutely. So there's always that time when you go to a conference and someone's talk doesn't load properly or is corrupted,   205 00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:14,800 or I went to a talk where all the graphs were in neon colours and you couldn't see any of the lines.   206 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,630 And so I give him his due. That guy stood there for 20 minutes.   207 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:24,430 He talked about his research and we could not see a single thing on any of his slides.   208 00:25:24,430 --> 00:25:31,060 And I think that is a real skill. And I think there's a bit to be said for preparation in that situation.   209 00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:37,810 Maybe you can go in the night before or just a couple of hours before your talk and just   210 00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:42,370 check it over to make sure that it does work on the projector that you're going to use.   211 00:25:42,370 --> 00:25:47,260 However, it's if you really know your subject area,   212 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:55,720 hopefully you'd be able to talk a little bit about your research without these slides, you know, just giving it a go talk.   213 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,210 And actually, it was a really good talk because it got people asking questions.   214 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:10,300 And I think that's really key. I guess one of the big questions is what advice would you give to someone who's currently starting out or doing well,   215 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:17,140 coming to the end of the research degree, who is thinking about R&D roles in industry?   216 00:26:17,140 --> 00:26:25,960 What advice would you give them about things they should be doing now, about applying for applying for jobs?   217 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,760 Is there any kind of key tips you would give them? Absolutely.   218 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,700 I would say try and extend your network.   219 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:44,770 Now, you could do that by going up to conferences, talking to people about your research, but also talk to your family,   220 00:26:44,770 --> 00:26:54,070 your friends locally, because lots of my business contacts have been made through unusual links.   221 00:26:54,070 --> 00:27:01,240 So really use that network to understand what opportunities are out there.   222 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,400 What kind of skills people are looking for right now. Because it changes it.   223 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:16,600 It changes all the time. We're seeing more of a focus towards automation and more scripting is required.   224 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:23,560 So things like Python are becoming more necessary and lots of job roles.   225 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:33,550 And I would say focus on that to kind of understand what areas you might want to go into, on what kind of skills they're looking for.   226 00:27:33,550 --> 00:27:38,350 And then you can focus on sort of fulfilling those before you get there,   227 00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:46,480 but also using those contacts to understand actually is there an opportunity that I'd be perfect for.   228 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,060 And actually, I can look to apply and say to them, look, it's conditional.   229 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:55,900 I want to finish my PhD and then start or something like that.   230 00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:04,930 There are lots of opportunities out there. And you just need to be a bit flexible in looking for them, how you find them.   231 00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:11,290 And I think people often overlook that. Thinking that they have to apply through a formal route.   232 00:28:11,290 --> 00:28:19,620 And there will be a formal route. That is how you find those opportunities that I'm saying can be can be less orthodox.   233 00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:25,330 Yeah, I think I think that's really key and it seems to have been a key theme in your career so far.   234 00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:34,630 Actually, the importance of networking and making Connections to actually creating those opportunities.   235 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:45,670 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, before my PhD, most of my jobs were through word of mouth.   236 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:54,460 One of the jobs that I had was because I'd used a particular software for my dissertation and a company contacted the university and said,   237 00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:59,920 Do you have any students who can use this software? Any graduates who might be looking for jobs?   238 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:06,430 That was another way that I that I got an opportunity there as well.   239 00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:10,750 So there are lots ways. Talk to your supervisor about what you're looking for.   240 00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:19,480 Maybe they have someone who's sponsoring PhDs in another area that maybe you're not aware of and they're looking for people.   241 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,630 So that can be a huge help as well. Yeah, that's really brilliant.   242 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:33,240 I'm. Is there anything that you.   243 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:41,350 Wish that you had done. While you were still a PhD student that you think would've benefited your career so far?   244 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:50,760 I don't think there's any opportunities that I missed. I think probably I should have spent some time learning how to code properly.   245 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,620 That would be really useful in my career.   246 00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:04,560 Now, I've picked up bits along the way, but I have to say I'm not a superb coder.   247 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:11,430 I think that's a key area. But in terms of conferences, in terms of experience, I was always quite cheeky.   248 00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:16,860 So I'd always ask if I wanted to go to a conference, if I saw it was somewhere amazing.   249 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:23,730 Then I'd just ask and we'd see if there was budget and I'd make sure that I had something new to present.   250 00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:30,960 When I went to my supervisor to say I would go to this conference and most of the time we made it happen.   251 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:39,920 So, yeah, be cheeky. Just go for it. Yeah, that's that's the benefit of being.   252 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:46,470 Proactive. And also just accepting that, you know, if you ask.   253 00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:54,560 They might say no. They might say yes. Exactly. My mom always used to say, if you don't ask, you don't get.   254 00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:00,840 And that, I think, is very true. So couple of examples on that.   255 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Specifically, before I started my PhDD, I did a placement with Kinetic.   256 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:13,770 And there was a project that we were working on, which was on a warship that was in for refits.   257 00:31:13,770 --> 00:31:19,290 And I I've never been on an aircraft carrier.   258 00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:25,440 And I thought I'd really like to go. So I went over to the guy who's running projects and I said, I'd really like to go.   259 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,410 And he said, Oh, I dunno And then I ended up being down there for two weeks.   260 00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:40,920 And it was absolutely fantastic. And in another example, in my current job, I was working on a project.   261 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:47,340 And one of the surgeons said to me, you should come down and see surgery.   262 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:54,030 And I said, okay. So I asked my boss and he said, Well, yes, I guess so.   263 00:31:54,030 --> 00:32:00,780 So I went down and I saw a knee replacement and a hip replacement. And I've never seen anything like that.   264 00:32:00,780 --> 00:32:10,920 It's it's brutal and it's fascinating. And I had no idea how I was gonna react, whether I was going to faint on the floor or be engrossed in it.   265 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:18,990 Turns out I didn't faint on the floor. Fantastic. Didn't embarrass myself in front of the surgeons, but it was just the most amazing experience.   266 00:32:18,990 --> 00:32:25,590 And I've got so much more insight into how these surgeries are performed.   267 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:30,960 So when I work with a surgeon now, I know that if you're talking about fractions of a millimetre,   268 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:42,480 it's probably not going to be achievable in surgery because you you just can't see does that level of detail that you can give them a guide   269 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:54,220 and that that really the understanding of the situation of the kind of equipment that you have to wear of the how hot it is in the room.   270 00:32:54,220 --> 00:33:05,260 You know, all these things really help you to to speak to the customer and to to be able to direct them to the best solution for their problem.   271 00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:10,630 What do you love most about your job? Oh, just working with loads of different people.   272 00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:25,750 All the different industries. So I've got a project at the moment where I'm working on trying to automate a learning process to defect,   273 00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:29,530 to find defects in addictively manufactured parts.   274 00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:31,810 So that's one project.   275 00:33:31,810 --> 00:33:48,400 We're also working on automated learning to build models of hearts and knees and hips for things like pacemaker design or stent placement.   276 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,180 So just working with that huge range of industries and everything in between,   277 00:33:54,180 --> 00:34:00,730 I'm just really allows me to keep my brain active and learning lots of new, different things.   278 00:34:00,730 --> 00:34:03,010 But like I've said, applying those skills,   279 00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:12,070 I've learnt through the experience that I've had before to be able to come up with innovative solutions that don't only solve, you know,   280 00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:23,290 sort of minor problems, but they're they're really addressing critical problems like defects in aircraftg wings or,   281 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:26,780 you know, my my mum's knee replacement. She could have.   282 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:33,400 Now, she could have a personalised knee replacement rather than one that was probably a bit smaller, a bit too big.   283 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:41,890 But she was somewhere in the middle. And I think helping to address those problems gives you a real warm glow feeling inside.   284 00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:48,970 Thank you so much, Celia, for taking the time to talk to me and giving some really interesting insights on kind of R&D roles,   285 00:34:48,970 --> 00:34:53,590 but also the hidden job market. And that's it for this episode.   286 00:34:53,590 --> 00:35:07,982 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.