Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree!  In this episode Kelly Preece, Researcher Development Manager talks to Dr. Hannah Roberts, who works as a career coach with women in science.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:23,610 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College

2 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:28,710 Hello and welcome to the first episode of Beyond Your Research Degree for 2021.

3 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:33,710 My name is Kelly Preece and on the research develop a manager for PGRs at the University of Exeter.

4 00:00:33,710 --> 00:00:39,390 And I'm delighted for our first episode of 2021 to be bringing you a discussion with Hannah Roberts.

5 00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:43,800 Hannah did her PhD and a couple of postdocs and then became a career coach.

6 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:51,600 So she works one to one with women in research and academia, particularly in STEM and scientific fields.

7 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,490 So, Hannah, are you happy to introduce yourself? Absolutely, sir.

8 00:00:56,490 --> 00:01:00,840 Hi, everybody. I'm Hannah Roberts and Well first of all

9 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:06,140 I have a degree master's phd postdoc in chemistry,

10 00:01:06,140 --> 00:01:11,820 and I spent eight years managing large multi-million pound projects between academics

11 00:01:11,820 --> 00:01:17,700 and industry and commercialising that research and parts of the commercialisation.

12 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:23,160 I started a spin out company with three other female academics,

13 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:31,410 and I was managing director of that company for two years and did all of that white having three children.

14 00:01:31,410 --> 00:01:39,460 And it was actually on my maternity leave where I decided that maybe I had outstretched

15 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:43,410 outgrown the role that I was in in scientific project management.

16 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:46,890 And now is the time to to make a switch.

17 00:01:46,890 --> 00:01:57,790 And so that's that was the moment where I decided I was going to be a career coach specifically for women in science.

18 00:01:57,790 --> 00:02:07,240 Amazing. So can we Take a step back from what you do now and talk a little bit about the spin out company and how it came about was.

19 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,970 So that was you during your research degree, is that right?

20 00:02:12,970 --> 00:02:20,160 Mine;s a little bit more complicated, so. When I finished my PhD, I went straight into a postdoc.

21 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,600 So I switch from chemistry to biotechnology at that point.

22 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:35,080 And so I got really into the analytical side of mass spectrometry as a tool to help with sort of looking at the structures of carbohydrates at that

23 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,330 time. Then I was two weeks.

24 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:43,800 Well, I should say I was probably four weeks into my postdoc and I fell pregnant.

25 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,710 So when I returned after my maternity leave and I kind of switched role at that point,

26 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:54,450 say, when I started my postdoc, I was half project manager, half postdoc.

27 00:02:54,450 --> 00:03:01,350 But essentially that meant I was most of the time postdoc. So did the project management alongside.

28 00:03:01,350 --> 00:03:05,170 But when I returned and just came back as a scientific project manager.

29 00:03:05,170 --> 00:03:11,710 So at that point, I was managing lots of different these projects because I knew the technology really well.

30 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:21,900 And one of the things that's a lots of funding bodies are looking for of obviously commercialisation is from these from these projects,

31 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:29,760 whether that's licence agreements, whether that's spin out companies, whether that's patents or something like that.

32 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:38,040 And we decided the best vehicle for this new technology in terms of the mass spectrometry was to do it through and through a new company,

33 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:48,870 because that way we could get industry to be able to send those samples and all that kind of stuff independently of the projects.

34 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:57,300 And that way we could start to then find our own funding and our own money to to make that a company in its own right.

35 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:02,230 Well. I mean, it sounds impressive on paper.

36 00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:07,540 I'm not I'm not sure that's how I felt about it at the time.

37 00:04:07,540 --> 00:04:11,920 Yes, I can appreciate that. I think there's two things I want to pick up on that.

38 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:18,880 The first is about kind of so there seems to be quite a shift in that to from kind of scientific

39 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,740 research to project management and more kind of business and entrepreneurially related skills.

40 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:29,330 How did you find that that shift in focus?

41 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:36,060 And to be honest, I I missed out a bit from the career history because I try and make it sound succinct so that it's,

42 00:04:36,060 --> 00:04:40,050 you know, degree masters PhD Postdoc chemistry.

43 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:49,950 So actually, between my degree and my PhD I went on a squiggly loop of not knowing what on earth I was doing.

44 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:57,840 So I worked for Croda Chemicals on a graduate development scheme for a couple of years and tried lots of different areas of the business.

45 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:04,230 And so I spent quite some time in sales because I thought I would be quite good at that and which I did.

46 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:09,450 I did enjoy to degree. And and then I felt I was too far removed from the science.

47 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:17,760 So then I got a business development, manager role in cancer studies and down at the Patterson Institute

48 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:25,860 And that's where I learnt how to and a little bit more about how to write grants and then how to manage them and how to manage the funds of them.

49 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:33,570 So I did that for a couple of years. Then I decided I need a vocation, so I'm going to become a teacher.

50 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:39,120 So I did my teacher training for. Yeah. Wow. And yeah, quite a few different things.

51 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,690 And then I oh this isn't for me. All the kids are stressing me out.

52 00:05:42,690 --> 00:05:48,790 They're not listening. It's not like being in university where everybody just listen because they want to be there.

53 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:56,520 And I was on a real, a real spiral of I've got to find something because and everybody around me was

54 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:02,490 off with their careers and I felt like I was just restarting all the time.

55 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:10,450 And so I was actually offered a PhD by my old supervisor because it's the first time he'd had funding since since I left i was like

56 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:16,830 Like, I'm just going to do that because that's where I where I excelled and where I could feel feel good again,

57 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:22,280 because at that time I was quite anxious and having panic attacks and all kinds of things.

58 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:33,180 So actually having that PhD set me back up on a path of sort of a good a good place to build a career from.

59 00:06:33,180 --> 00:06:43,320 To be honest. So and the PhD was kind of kind of a saviour for me, which is not what you hear from most people who don't necessarily.

60 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:51,350 But I think it's really it's always really nice to have people who have the experience of do of doing a research degree.

61 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:57,700 I mean, to end it being very much the right thing and the thing that they needed at that point in time, career wise, you know, and life, wise.

62 00:06:57,700 --> 00:06:59,070 Mm hmm.

63 00:06:59,070 --> 00:07:05,100 The second thing I wanted to pick up from what you said was about the fact that you started your postdoc within a very short space of time, you got.

64 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:08,970 Pregnant. Yes. Went on maternity leave and the role changed.

65 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:15,060 If you if you feel comfortable talking about it, I wondered, you know, if you could talk about.

66 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:19,140 What that was like career wise in terms of, you know,

67 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:24,810 going so soon into a job and then taking maternity leave and then coming back to a slightly different role.

68 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:32,290 How what was that experience like? I think that's a concern for a lot of women.

69 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:39,490 Absolutely. And because I'd had those different interim roles before I do my PhD at that point,

70 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:48,970 I was 28 years old when I got married and I just finished my PhD So I really was at a time in my life where I was looking to to start my family.

71 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:55,120 And I was in the last year of my PhD I looked ahead at the other women in the department.

72 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:02,050 So I was in the Department of Chemistry and I found five of the women out of over 200 people.

73 00:08:02,050 --> 00:08:10,930 And I was looking carefully at what they were doing. And I think to two or three had children and I was very concerned.

74 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:18,970 That's what what it looked like to me was that to make it work, it had to be all consuming, because in my mind,

75 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:25,630 when I had children, I wanted to have this kind of maybe just work three days a week and I just couldn't see this elusive thing.

76 00:08:25,630 --> 00:08:31,480 That was a part time professor. It didn't seem to exist for me.

77 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,500 But as is the nature of these things,

78 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:44,110 I was recommended for a postdoc and it seemed like I was on this conveyor belt and it was the next logical progression.

79 00:08:44,110 --> 00:08:50,710 And that and having had when I went to the interview, which was an informal chats, because, of course, had been recommended.

80 00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:57,580 So I had this interview and it was just sort of proposed that well we had this postdoc.

81 00:08:57,580 --> 00:09:01,900 But it also needs to include some project management. You have that in your history.

82 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:06,040 Are you okay with doing this? And and of course, I just say yes.

83 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:13,330 Yes, of course. That's absolutely fine. And she was willing to wait for eight months for me to start.

84 00:09:13,330 --> 00:09:19,510 So I had time to finish up my postdoc and my experiments. I'm writing my PhD

85 00:09:19,510 --> 00:09:26,410 So a couple of months before I actually started the postdoc, I actually fell pregnant.

86 00:09:26,410 --> 00:09:33,460 And unfortunately, I had a miscarriage at that time. So my supervisor, my.

87 00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:40,540 who, I was moving to actually knew about that. So it wasn't a massive surprise to her when I started the job.

88 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:45,340 And then, you know, a few a few months in, I said that I was pregnant.

89 00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:52,770 And she was she was really pleased for me and happy and and really supportive, actually.

90 00:09:52,770 --> 00:10:00,210 So it was more of a it was the time in the life. You can't kind of change the the biology of you can put it off.

91 00:10:00,210 --> 00:10:10,520 But for how long? Because I'm on that conveyor belt at that point. There's never a good time to have a child is there in terms of your carer

92 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,710 And so my husband is five years older than me.

93 00:10:13,710 --> 00:10:19,590 So we were we just decided that was the time to do it with stability or without stability.

94 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:23,650 And at least he had a very stable job.

95 00:10:23,650 --> 00:10:28,200 And at least with postdocs you know exactly how long the contracts for.

96 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,400 So I found stability within the instability of knowing.

97 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:38,530 At least that Coming on to what you do now, can you talk a little bit about that?

98 00:10:38,530 --> 00:10:43,250 The coaching you do and the particular focus that you have?

99 00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:52,470 Yeah, I think because of the experiences that I had and, you know, being on that conveyor belt but not seeing what I really wanted out of academia,

100 00:10:52,470 --> 00:11:01,160 you know, that part time professor kind of role and then having gone a completely sort of.

101 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:07,430 Being moulded in a way to do a different position. But it wasn't necessarily using my natural talents and capabilities.

102 00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:16,790 So we actually had someone she was in the personal development sphere when we were running a meeting for one of these projects I was managing.

103 00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:23,730 And she used what's called talent dynamics profiling. And she profiled all of us in the team.

104 00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:27,650 And when I got my profile back, I was like, Oh, this isn't me.

105 00:11:27,650 --> 00:11:31,310 I've answered the questions as if I'm in my current role.

106 00:11:31,310 --> 00:11:36,080 But it's not my natural preference. And when we had a debrief about it,

107 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:42,950 it was really clear that the role I was doing was the complete opposite end of the spectrum to my natural preferences.

108 00:11:42,950 --> 00:11:48,140 And that's and I was like, oh, I'm doing the complete wrong, wrong career.

109 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:54,170 I'm in the wrong job here and I don't have the confidence to get out of it.

110 00:11:54,170 --> 00:11:58,430 So I didn't feel it was I had stability, I had another five year contract,

111 00:11:58,430 --> 00:12:05,300 I could keep kept rolling on and on and on, and I could design and do whatever I wanted within those roles.

112 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:13,430 So and it was actually having coaching for the last two years before I finished that role that enabled me to

113 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:21,800 have the confidence to be able to to move on to something different because my my first two maternity leaves,

114 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:29,690 I actually worked straight through them. So I was concerned that I wouldn't have a contract to go back to.

115 00:12:29,690 --> 00:12:35,930 So I decided to say, oh, I'll just continue with my job while I'm on maternity leave.

116 00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:42,890 So that basically that I would be indispensible. And this is a common practise with lots of people.

117 00:12:42,890 --> 00:12:49,470 They they write their fellowships on maternity leave. In fact, most of the female academic said to me, oh,

118 00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:54,620 I wrote my fellowship the first twelve weeks of academia and of having a baby or I went back to

119 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:59,270 work after two weeks and got a nanny or these are the kind of things people were telling me.

120 00:12:59,270 --> 00:13:04,490 So I thought, well, I should be doing something on maternity leave.

121 00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:11,420 And I did try. I did start try to write a fellowship, but I quickly decided I wasn't quite good enough to do that.

122 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:18,410 At that moment in time, funnily enough. But actually having coaching those last two years,

123 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:24,500 which came about as as business coaching through the company and but I found it really

124 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:30,350 helpful at a personal level and having restored my confidence to to that level.

125 00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:36,410 I then went onto a third maternity leave and said, no, I'm not doing anything on this maternity leave.

126 00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:41,090 And having that time and space to think and explore different things and not

127 00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:47,300 maternity leave was really crucial to me than not actually returning to that role.

128 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:51,260 And during that maternity leave, it was wonderful.

129 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:58,070 You know, it's a really nice summer. I started a rock painting group and I was looking for loads of stuff.

130 00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:01,860 And then I found this thing online about Superwoman.

131 00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:09,890 I was like, oh, my goodness, it sounds just like me, you know, running at 200 miles an hour, pushing to prove myself.

132 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:18,800 All this stuff. And when I entered into it, they had these foundational courses in time and energy management and and some coaching stuff.

133 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:26,000 And I had to look at it. Did the courses and was like, oh, oh, I can see a link now between.

134 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:33,570 Between this coaching stuff and the difference that I want to make within universities, particularly for women.

135 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:38,540 When I made that link, I was like, I can do this through coaching, having being coached.

136 00:14:38,540 --> 00:14:40,910 I knew the impact that it had on me.

137 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:51,080 And then I thought as a coach, I can then help the people to navigate this career path much more smoothly than I ever did it.

138 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,020 And that's what's really important to me.

139 00:14:53,020 --> 00:15:02,600 Having having this smoother pathway, that doesn't necessarily mean continuing along this conveyor belts of academia.

140 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,070 It can mean lots of different things.

141 00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:13,190 But finding the right pathway for you and the other part that's really important to me is having more women in leadership positions.

142 00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:24,980 Yes. In academia, but also the world around because we know that and the more diverse the leadership is and the better decisions that are made.

143 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:33,450 So those are the kind of the two components that I'm trying to combine together within my own coaching company.

144 00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:40,910 And so you even though, you know, some academic, you're working a lot with academics.

145 00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:54,830 Yes, I my my coachees tend to be  from postdocs, I get a lot of postdocs fellows, group leaders and also similar positions in industry as well.

146 00:15:54,830 --> 00:16:06,410 And so it tends to be. Tends to be more of the way you've got a natural kind of career progression, say career transitions,

147 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:13,090 say for postdocs it's that kind of lasts 12 months on the contract cause and get to be on the brain all the time, you know.

148 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:18,630 Oh, my goodness. I've got to go to sort of line something up.

149 00:16:18,630 --> 00:16:27,120 And I've got lots of fellows that have done that whole or part way through the fellowship and not sure if they want to continue.

150 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:35,040 Because of the stress and the pressures of anxiety and of academia and and it's around, one,

151 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:43,740 helping people to manage the current situation more powerfully and more confidently with the right tools to equip them to do that.

152 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:49,650 And at the same time, trying to figure out this piece about who they really are and what impact they want to make on the world.

153 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:59,460 Because your value or your self-confidence can come from your vision, mission, purpose, natural talents and capabilities and your values.

154 00:16:59,460 --> 00:17:05,280 And when all of those five pieces are defined that so we can truly know in value,

155 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:11,490 we'll be doing the thing that we love doing, finding fulfilment in it and getting paid what worth with as well.

156 00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:17,360 So those are the kind of key pieces for me.

157 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:25,600 Yeah, um, I. I think it's really interesting that you said that you talk about that because it's clear how much of an impact,

158 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:33,850 the kind of that assessment of values and reflection and had on you and your career path.

159 00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:43,780 And then the kind of having those conversations with your clients. And I know from my own experience, I used to be an academic and I.

160 00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:49,640 Did it for a number of years and then realised I was quite unhappy and.

161 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,600 It was only when I took a step back for the first time in my life,

162 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,590 I kind of had that reflection of my values and the kind of work life I wanted and the work life balance.

163 00:17:57,590 --> 00:18:02,730 I wanted that I realised I was in completely the wrong job.

164 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:09,350 And that's the kind of started me on the on the path that led me to working in a professional services job in a university.

165 00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:16,760 But I know from experience when we kind of say to people or, you know, doing these kinds of psychometric tests or,

166 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:24,920 you know, values, assessments and everything is really important to understanding why you want to go in your career.

167 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,910 I think sometimes people feel a bit like, oh, yeah, all right, okay, whatever.

168 00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:39,240 And I think no  it really will change the way that you do things.

169 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:48,090 For sure. It did for me, but on that point, I was that person who was too busy and I think these things are interesting,

170 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:52,710 like, oh, you know, this is a researchers into management course.

171 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:57,770 I'll apply for that. And this imposter syndrome workshop, I'd apply for all these things.

172 00:18:57,770 --> 00:19:06,090 I'd be booked on them. And then I wouldn't show up i'm that naughty person that was far too busy and important to actually turn up because

173 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:11,810 I have too much work to do because I'm superwoman ing and I'm too busy like I've got I've got to be gone.

174 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:14,730 at half past four to pick up the kids and I'm doing this and doing this and I can't

175 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:19,500 actually find the time to go to the things that are most important to me.

176 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:27,270 And so I think some of the things to address that actually the culture that causes the superwoman

177 00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:34,000 kind of archetype that prevents us from actually accessing these things in the first place.

178 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,200 Yeah, absolutely.

179 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:47,960 And and I think that is it's interesting kind of the focus that you have on on women and moving women through their career path and leadership,

180 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:56,260 because, you know, we know that that is a particular problem that women face.

181 00:19:56,260 --> 00:20:01,180 Is that kind of that expectation or the expectation we put on ourselves and the

182 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:14,790 expectation put on us by society and our workplaces to be that superwoman? Yeah, it yeah, it's a complicated beast, superwoman.

183 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:20,880 So we have these sort of statistics that, you know, only and I saw it myself.

184 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,100 So 43 percent of women will start with a chemistry degree.

185 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:31,200 And certainly when I was doing chemistry, everyone around me looked just like me, you know?

186 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,260 I didn't see a problem. And it wasn't until I got to that.

187 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:41,200 And just looking ahead to that p h d to postdoc position where I really noticed.

188 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,300 Oh. Two steps ahead of me. There's not so many of them about.

189 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:51,240 That was the very first inkling I had that, you know, there was this kind of leaky pipeline.

190 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:59,010 And now the statistics show and I quote chemistry. But you can look them up in everyone's own personal fields.

191 00:20:59,010 --> 00:21:03,680 But only nine percent of women become professors. Nine percent.

192 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,880 And 43 percent going in.

193 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:14,830 So this is a huge dropoff of an already of a pipeline of a conveyor belt that isn't going to be for everybody in the first place.

194 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:19,590 But all of those women that start out, there's not many people making it through.

195 00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:23,370 And I sort of have a theory on this because I'm a scientist.

196 00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:31,890 I like more of a theory. So does this statistic that says that women are 60 percent more likely to suffer job stress?

197 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:37,500 and burn out than men and there's some components to that, so first of all

198 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:45,300 There's some work by Hofstedder. And he talks about masculine versus feminine coaches.

199 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:52,410 And there are six different independent studies that feed into what determines the masculine qualities of a culture.

200 00:21:52,410 --> 00:22:01,080 But they came up with things like material rewards for success, individualism, competition is celebrated.

201 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:08,640 These kind of qualities and the more feminine qualities were seen as collaboration and

202 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:16,000 caring for the weak and the sick in society and and a more collaborative type of society.

203 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,440 And interestingly, from the research, Japan came out as the most masculine country in the whole world.

204 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,910 Unsurprisingly, actually, and Finland was lowest on the score

205 00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:32,350 Now, the U.K. was actually the ninth most masculine country in the whole world.

206 00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:44,530 Nine. And that was super shocking to me because we're swimming around in a soup that is celebrating this competition culture that drives Superwoman.

207 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:49,290 And another factor to layer in on that, then, is also a personal paradigm.

208 00:22:49,290 --> 00:22:55,110 So I come from quite a masculine paradigm family because my dad works away Monday

209 00:22:55,110 --> 00:23:01,680 to Friday and my mom was in charge of the family superwomen her way through.

210 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:10,910 And if we go through back a generation, my grandma was the only one to actually show up to work when bombs were coming down on their village.

211 00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:18,300 And because it's that kind of push through, show up, no matter what mentality in my family.

212 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:29,430 And then layering on top of that, a workplace hierarchical culture where actually your your colleagues in academia are also your competition.

213 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:37,680 And it's very hierarchical as well, because we've got, you know, professors, senior lecturers, lecturers, fellows, postdocs.

214 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,130 You can see how all those three things combined create this soup.

215 00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:51,030 And there's also a statistic to show you that women are less happy as a gender than we were 40 years ago.

216 00:23:51,030 --> 00:23:56,790 And that is irrespective of and of lots of different factors,

217 00:23:56,790 --> 00:24:02,640 like how how many children you have if you have children, whether you're married, single, divorced, whatever.

218 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:12,660 The only exception is African-American women. And they are slightly happier than they were 40 years ago, but still less happy than the men.

219 00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:18,960 So why are we getting And even though now we have more opportunities than ever before.

220 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:28,740 Why are we getting sick? Why are we burning out? So my theory is that this archetype of superwoman that so many of us are using

221 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:34,440 is actually the very power that is preventing us from and being happy.

222 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,110 The thing that's now burning is out in the workplace.

223 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:43,080 So it got us these amazing opportunities, but it can't it's not actually sustaining goes long term.

224 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,510 And certainly that's what I see a lot with my clients.

225 00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:54,150 Those in Superwoman may also be getting, you know, poorly once every three months, that sort of tonsillitis, seven times a year.

226 00:24:54,150 --> 00:25:04,740 That's what I used to get. It's that kind of pushing too hard for too long and has to be a different way to get stuff done.

227 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:10,790 And what we say about Superwoman. Is that it's operating from fear?

228 00:25:10,790 --> 00:25:16,600 Because if there's an underlying fear there, then Superwoman is going to show up to make us feel even.

229 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,140 And, you know, so we that we don't have to feel bad or or ever again.

230 00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:25,820 You know, it's the perfect antidote to imposter syndrome. So if I'm not good enough, don't worry.

231 00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:30,380 Superwoman can step in and save the day. So I don't have to feel like that again.

232 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:35,080 But of course we do. And so superwomen just continues. Yeah.

233 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:46,500 You know, all of this all too well my so much of myself and so many of the amazing women around me in that.

234 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:51,660 So can you talk a little bit about. You're coaching them.

235 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:57,030 So what it actually involves so you work one on one with clients.

236 00:25:57,030 --> 00:26:01,200 And quite often with with postdocs or people on that kind of career track.

237 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:08,870 What what sort of work are you doing with them? What kind of conversations are you having?

238 00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:16,910 Here it is. It's a mixture of different things because, yes, I am primarily focussed on career coaching,

239 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:22,290 so I'm looking at people who have formed that identity around their career.

240 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:31,840 As is the major parts of their life. Typically, these people are really concerned with making an impact, making a difference, helping the people.

241 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:41,640 And so the first piece of work that I always do is to drill down and get clarity on what the actual core of the problem is.

242 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,810 And often that can come down to a number of different factors.

243 00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:50,230 But it could be the perception or the judgement of other people.

244 00:26:50,230 --> 00:27:02,120 You know, when we worry what other people think, it can cause us to pre-empt situations or overthink it in the moment or catastrophizing.

245 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,880 So there is some of the things people might be coming to me with or procrastinating,

246 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,000 because if we are very concerned about the perception or the judgements for the people,

247 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:21,020 it can be hard for us to complete upon tasks, particularly the big tasks like grant writing or papers,

248 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:25,550 because we know that we're going to get criticism in return

249 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:29,390 So what I'm doing right at the beginning when I start working with people,

250 00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:40,430 is figuring out what the actual underlying challenges are for them by giving clarity from lots of different perspectives and angles.

251 00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:46,170 Once we have that, we set out a series of aspirational intentions for future.

252 00:27:46,170 --> 00:27:53,630 And we break things down in the very first actions that she can get to start to maybe towards those intentions.

253 00:27:53,630 --> 00:28:01,790 And if them from that point, they went to continue, we then look at the core of the problem, how the brain works.

254 00:28:01,790 --> 00:28:03,800 You know, that cyclic, iterative thinking.

255 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:10,550 You know, how we create meaning from situations, attach emotions to them, and then that feeds into the next scenario.

256 00:28:10,550 --> 00:28:18,940 So we look at that iterative cycle of thinking and break that down with tools that you can apply to stop overthinking.

257 00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:28,070 And from that point, we layer in another piece of awareness about Superwoman and had disempowering archetypal cousins of the bitch

258 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:32,060 the martyr and the victim, and we use a tool to tigger trap

259 00:28:32,060 --> 00:28:38,900 Those behaviours and I use specific NLP based tools to let go of that stuff because it's important

260 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:45,720 to me to let go of the challenging patterns of behaviour before we start career planning,

261 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:54,380 because you could have a very different outcome from if you're coming from a confident point of view as to when you first coming into coaching.

262 00:28:54,380 --> 00:29:00,290 So it takes me about six sessions to to really get to the core of it and move people beyond it.

263 00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:08,030 And then the last six sessions are really focussed towards defining your value and working on your leadership capabilities.

264 00:29:08,030 --> 00:29:16,910 So defining your value is that piece around vision, purpose, mission, natural talents and capabilities and values.

265 00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:21,740 And then from that piece, I'm also using another profiling tool.

266 00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:23,030 So I use talent dynamics.

267 00:29:23,030 --> 00:29:36,210 I also use the women's five power types in my coaching, and I help people to enhance the qualities of, say, for instance, if Superwoman shows up.

268 00:29:36,210 --> 00:29:40,580 superwoman doesn't make us a better communicator. It just makes us more anxious.

269 00:29:40,580 --> 00:29:44,930 If we're in an interview, we don't want it being superwoman. I'd be just very nervous.

270 00:29:44,930 --> 00:29:58,940 We actually want to step into the queen power type who is serene, calm in command, and he can articulate a vision really, really powerfully.

271 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:04,160 So it's about showing people how to access those five different power types.

272 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,280 Also, for leadership enhancement

273 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:15,390 And then we do a five year detailed five year plan and design a network of support consciously to help put that plan into place.

274 00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:17,570 So when I'm removed from that picture,

275 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:27,230 people will have the right people to help them get there in terms of mental sponsor's and other kinds of support as well.

276 00:30:27,230 --> 00:30:38,250 Perhaps the obvious ways that you all are using your experience of working in academia and in a research context.

277 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:43,110 To work with them, relate to your clients.

278 00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:47,880 But one of the things we always try and kind of ask and talk about is how actually, you know,

279 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:56,520 what what what skills and experience specifically are you using from your research degree, and your postdoc in the role that you're in now?

280 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,150 Are there things that have transpired over really, really clearly or do you feel it's a completely different.

281 00:31:02,150 --> 00:31:08,920 You know, it's been a completely different kind of role and you've needed to learn a completely new set of skills.

282 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:18,970 I think with em, with postdocs and PhDs, there are so many transferable skills that are really, really helpful and for any given job.

283 00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:20,770 So the things that I,

284 00:31:20,770 --> 00:31:30,160 I definitely fall back on time and time again are I did my whole PhD was on using different spectroscopic techniques and analysis.

285 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,270 So I'm very analytical in the way that I approach coaching too.

286 00:31:34,270 --> 00:31:40,690 So for instance, I have those aspirational intentions for people's futures

287 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:46,630 but it's not breaking down the analysis of what they said, this and this history session and noticing this.

288 00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:48,130 And I've I've got a tool for that.

289 00:31:48,130 --> 00:31:57,910 And I know I'm constantly analysing what people are saying and the context and bringing it all together into into a big picture.

290 00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:05,440 And I'm also analysing the progress that people are making on a fortnightly basis in terms of scoring's and rating.

291 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,470 So I've become very scientific about whether or not the coaching is beneficial and working.

292 00:32:11,470 --> 00:32:19,930 And I need to see that progress to know that I'm making a difference and an impact to that person and tangibly.

293 00:32:19,930 --> 00:32:26,680 So I think that that those analytical skills are crucial and creating systems.

294 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:37,920 So I don't know about you, but in my PhD, I had to create protocols and

294 00:32:26,680 -->293 00:32:19,930 -->292 00:32:11,470 -->291 00:32:05,440 -->290 00:31:57,910 -->289 00:31:48,130 -->288 00:31:46,630 -->287 00:31:40,690 -->286 00:31:34,270 -->285 00:31:30,160 -->284 00:31:20,770 -->283 00:31:18,970 -->282 00:31:08,920 -->281 00:31:02,150 -->280 00:30:56,520 -->279 00:30:47,880 -->278 00:30:43,110 -->277 00:30:38,250 -->276 00:30:27,230 -->275 00:30:17,570 -->274 00:30:15,390 -->273 00:30:07,280 -->272 00:30:04,160 -->271 00:29:58,940 -->270 00:29:44,930 -->269 00:29:40,580 -->268 00:29:36,210 -->267 00:29:23,030 -->266 00:29:21,740 -->265 00:29:16,910 -->264 00:29:08,030 -->263 00:29:00,290 -->262 00:28:54,380 -->261 00:28:45,720 -->260 00:28:38,900 -->259 00:28:32,060 -->258 00:28:28,070 -->257 00:28:18,940 -->256 00:28:10,550 -->255 00:28:03,800 -->254 00:28:01,790 -->253 00:27:53,630 -->252 00:27:46,170 -->251 00:27:40,430 -->250 00:27:29,390 -->249 00:27:25,550 -->248 00:27:21,020 -->247 00:27:14,000 -->246 00:27:07,880 -->245 00:27:02,120 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