Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode PhD student Debbie Kinsey talks to Gemma Edney, a University of Exeter alumni. An experienced project manager and events manager, Gemma now works at St George's, The University of London.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter Doctoral College

2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:27,000 So I'm Gemma. I did my PhD in film studies finished last April.

3 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:37,000 So April 2019 was when I was awarded. I submitted the September before that, so I sort of stopped the actual physical researching and writing 24/7.

4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:46,000 In September 2018, immediately after submitting, I got a job at the student information desk.

5 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Here I am organising graduation. Which sounds more stressful the more I think about it.

6 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,000 But I actually think organising graduation is actually quite stressful.

7 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,000 But so I did that.

8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:10,000 So I did that immediately after submitting completed my corrections while I was doing that, and then continued doing that for a little bit.

9 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I was looking for jobs here and there.

10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 The plan originally was academic jobs, so I was looking for those.

11 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:27,000 There weren't very many. So and the more I looked at, to be honest, the less I wanted any of the jobs that did come up looking.

12 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So then in October last year, I decided to apply to the civil service fast stream scheme.

13 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And finally, it's the longest application process ever. But finally, I found out in February that I've been successful.

14 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:50,000 So I'll be starting there in September, which is about the change of direction, but is, I think, a good move for me.

15 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,000 So, yeah, that's kind of where I am in my journey at the moment.

16 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Yeah. So you were initially you working kind of in university, you know, you said.

17 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Well, yeah, initially looking for research type jobs but now decided to move outside.

18 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Yes. Yeah. So I worked throughout my PhD anyway, um,

19 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:19,000 part time at the university and then that's sort of how I ended up with the job that I ended up with once I had submitted.

20 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I wasn't in a position I could once I'd finished, just do sort of a seminar here and there or like one or two seminars a week.

21 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I needed an actual job full, full time hours. I did.

22 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Originally, I was offered teaching in the year that I, I submitted, but it was only one seminar a week.

23 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:44,000 And so I had to say no because I needed more than just one seminar a week and I

24 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,000 wasn't able to take a full time job and also do a seminar a week because funnily enough,

25 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000 the university don't like to employ people or more than a full time contract. So.

26 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,000 So I wasn't able to do that, which was a shame, because I do really I do miss teaching is one of the things I really miss.

27 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 But I carried on looking. I was constantly looking for jobs.

28 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,000 I was never under the impression that I was gonna do graduation organisation forever.

29 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,000 That's not something that I thought was on my future plan, really.

30 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:22,000 So I did carry on looking for jobs. But the more I looked to be honest, the more it's they were all fixed term.

31 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:30,000 They were all part time. Some of them were fixed term and part-time. And it just wasn't something that I wanted.

32 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:41,000 After doing four years of PhD, I was ready to just actually know where I was going and where I was gonna be and have a bit more stability.

33 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 And it was just one of those things that gradually I came to the realisation that actually,

34 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,000 although I would have loved to stay in academia, it wasn't the top of my priority anymore.

35 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,000 And I think that's okay. I think that's fine to have come to that realisation.

36 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,000 It took me a while to come to that to come to that realisation.

37 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000 But yeah, it's not something that I have no regrets about stopping looking for academic jobs.

38 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,000 There was a point where I just anything came up I went, I didn't want that job.

39 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:15,000 I just looking at the looking at the job description and looking out the work involved and things, that's not I don't think I want it.

40 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:21,000 And when that just kept happening, I thought, yeah. I didn't want any of these jobs.

41 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 So I started looking outside. And to begin with, I was a bit sort of I felt a bit lost in the.

42 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,000 I had been aiming at this for so long and done this one path.

43 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:38,000 And then I thought, OK, what am I going to do now? What do I even do?

44 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:44,000 And so I look for things sort of within universities and I'm sort of more student support kind of roles and things.

45 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 But again, there was just nothing that really struck me. I got there were a couple of jobs.

46 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I went for that I think I would have really enjoyed it, but I came second for all of them.

47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Which was lovely that they told me that. And also awful that they told me that because I'd have rather come last and just been told, no, it's not so.

48 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,000 But then I sort of thought, well, maybe I don't need to work at a University at all.

49 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,000 Maybe all other things. And I actually started looking more at graduate schemes and thinking more.

50 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Is there anything that also like PhD I'm still a graduate.

51 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,000 II can still apply. And there are various things there.

52 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,000 And there are various schemes that actually sort of market themselves.

53 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:36,000 at PhD graduates, as well as other graduates of other levels as well.

54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 And so I started sort of looking at much more widely than I had been before.

55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And I actually heard about the civil service scheme on a train.

56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Just people behind me were talking and I was really nice. So they were sort of just talking about their current roles and everything.

57 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000 And I was thinking, oh, like sounds interesting. Like what the scheme that they're on.

58 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:05,000 And I had a look at it. And it's actually designed not just for fresh undergraduates that are leaving university

59 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:11,000 but for a career changes and people are all different stages of their careers.

60 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,000 And I quite liked that.

61 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:21,000 It specifically says we are not just a graduate scheme and we're not just for 20 and 21 year olds that have just finished their degrees and things.

62 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,000 So I sort of looked into it and to be honest, just that and an application on the off chance.

63 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And then, I mean, it's a very long process. So the longer I went into it, the more I said I actually really want this

64 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,000 I want I want a place.

65 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:41,000 And so, yeah, it was as soon as I sort of got more more involved in the process and through the application, the more I thought, yeah.

66 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,000 I think this is a really good move for me,

67 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:52,000 something that I think I can apply myself to and having a bit more experience beyond sort of having through my page.

68 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:59,000 The experience I've got and through working elsewhere as well, I think we'll actually be really beneficial.

69 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So, yeah, there are absolutely no regrets on the journey I've taken to get to this point.

70 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,000 But it just took me a little bit of time to come to come to the realisation of what I sort of wanted and needed.

71 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,000 To be honest, this is for my own personal wellbeing.

72 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000 I think this is a really good decision. And ever since I've sort of had the plan of life.

73 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:27,000 Now I know that I'm going somewhere else. I'm going off in this direction. Sort of felt almost lighter.

74 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Yeah, this is great. I haven't felt that for a while. So that's where.

75 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Good. This kind of thing where it's important to think that not just the things you enjoy, that you really enjoy teaching.

76 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:46,000 So what kind of life you want. Yeah. And a lot of the academic opportunities and I like them around you and finding just didn't fit with the kind of life.

77 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm like, I think there are people that can say, yeah,

78 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:00,000 I'm happy to go through a few years of temporary contracts in the hope that I can then go on to a permanent one eventually.

79 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 And that's great. And that is originally what I thought I would have to do.

80 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,000 But the more I thought about it, the just the more I think I don't I don't want to have to.

81 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:16,000 As soon as I go into a job, I start looking for another one, because that's pretty much all I have done.

82 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,000 So throughout my PhD, I was on sort of temporary contracts anyway,

83 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,000 which didn't matter because they were part time and I was always, always able to get another one.

84 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:32,000 But then I was immediately looking for jobs as soon as I had finished and then immediately looking for other jobs.

85 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Once I got the one I was in and I was just done with the job search.

86 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,000 If I'm honest, there's only so many applications I can start and then maybe fill out.

87 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000 And then the competition obviously is always so high.

88 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:57,000 So just for my own for my own sake, I thought it's okay to have priorities the on going into a research job or an academic job.

89 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,000 I still I've still continued to do some research when I have the time.

90 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,000 I mean, having a full time job makes that less likely. But I've got an article coming out soon in a journal and things like that.

91 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:15,000 I still really like my research. I haven't completely fallen out of love with everything I've done, but it's much more.

92 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,000 I can do it on my own terms. There's no pressure or I can do what I want when I want.

93 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:28,000 If someone likes it, they'll publish it. Great. But there's no sort of expectation that I have to get so many publications out.

94 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000 I have to get this experience in order to get this job. I might only have for six months.

95 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,000 And that's having that knowledge as much.

96 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,000 It's just so much calmer in my life. Yeah.

97 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,000 And it sounds like looking at said you were feeling a bit lost when you made that decision.

98 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Like when. Sure. Went to. Yeah. Graduate schemes. Kind of gave you that structure to that.

99 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,000 It did. Yeah. It was never it was never something I had even considered at all.

100 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000 I thought, no, I'll stay if I do. I'll keep looking for academic jobs.

101 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 And if I don't get an academic job, I'll still look in sort of student support

102 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 And it was only when I thought, why, why do I have this weird thing that I have to stay?

103 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Within a university, maybe I don't have to work at a university. It was only then.

104 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:22,000 And obviously there are so many jobs and you have to try and structure it somehow.

105 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,000 Then I sort of thought, well, maybe let's look at the schemes out there.

106 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,000 And there are, as I said, there are some that do actually market themselves as PhD level.

107 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:40,000 And they say that they'll give you like a salary increase if you've got a PhD over a bachelors or a masters, so that there are schemes out there.

108 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And I was when I discovered that, then I thought, oh, okay, well, maybe I can look at some of these.

109 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:51,000 I mean, investment banking isn't what I'm actually interested in. So I didn't apply for quite a lot of them.

110 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000 But there are still schemes out there that value these.

111 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,000 There are there's more resources, I think, for science PhDs than there are for humanities PhDs

112 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 In terms of moving into industry or moving outside of universities.

113 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:11,000 But there are schemes out there and there are there are people that have made the move, too.

114 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:18,000 So, yeah, I think discovering that was was really good as a way of at least starting to structure my search.

115 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,000 And then I had just a lucky train journey. So what was the process like?

116 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000 You said it was quite an involved process. Yeah. So it's a really involved process.

117 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:36,000 So I sent the initial application in in October and then I had to go through two rounds of online tests,

118 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 which are so it's not really verbal reasoning or anything, which is why I expected it to be.

119 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:48,000 It's kind of they give you a scenario and you have to say which decision is more more valid or you have to sort of say what you would do,

120 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 that kind of thing. And then if you pass that, there's a video interview,

121 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,000 which is one of the strange experiences I've ever had because there wasn't a person on the other end.

122 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:04,000 It's just a pre-recorded question, which then you have certain time to answer the question in and then off your recording goes.

123 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:12,000 So I was sitting in my kitchen sort of looking at my wall, trying to answer, trying to answer questions was a very strange experience.

124 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:20,000 But I did that. And then after that, there's an assessment centre where you actually meet people for the first time

125 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000 and you're with lots of other people that are also applying to the scheme.

126 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:32,000 You go through various tasks. And and then after that, I waited for 10 weeks and then eventually found out the outcome because they have so

127 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,000 many people that they have to they have to set marks for each of the different schemes,

128 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:43,000 because within the within the whole fast stream scheme, there are fifteen individual streams that you apply for.

129 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:49,000 So they have to sort of set pass marks and gradually narrow the bands and until they have the right number and things like that.

130 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:57,000 So it takes a long time, but it was thankfully worth worth it in the.

131 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:04,000 It has been it was a long process. But Handily, I found out that it was two days after my birthday, which was nice.

132 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,000 And also the day before I had an interview for another job, which is fixed term until August.

133 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:16,000 So that's just doing is doing graduation at another university in London.

134 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:22,000 So that was it was quite. I applied just because it was it's more money than I was.

135 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:30,000 I'm on at the moment. And I thought, well, why not? And then but I probably wouldn't have taken it because it's only fixed term until August.

136 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Without the guarantee that I'll have somewhere to go afterwards.

137 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:42,000 But I then yeah, the next day I had the interview and I said, yes, I would take this role if asked, because I've got time, I've got somewhere to go.

138 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And so I say things kind of all fell into place,

139 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:52,000 which was nice because before that things hadn't really felt like they were falling into place at all.

140 00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:02,000 But yes. So that kind of brought my leaving Exeter forward by quite a large, large amount of time, which I will obviously be sad to do

141 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:09,000 I've been here for a really long time. But yeah, I think it's a good move for me to sort of just go.

142 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,000 And for once, it's kind of I'm just putting myself first completely as a completely selfish decision that

143 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000 I'm just gonna leave and do something else for five months and then go and do something else.

144 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:28,000 So it's yeah, it's good for me to have a bit of change of scenery and and work out work out what I'm good at again.

145 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Yeah. Did you find, say, during the process of applying anything, you applied things from your so p h d time.

146 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,000 Yes. Anything learnt skills or how did you sort of transfer this sort of university academic speak I guess.

147 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Yeah. Different industries. So I mean I think being able to write well is something that I don't think you can

148 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:01,000 under estimate writing applications and being able to talk about your experience from

149 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 when you go to conferences and people say also you also tell me about you tell me

150 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 about your research and you have to suddenly think of something that you hadn't.

151 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Considered and this really High-Powered person is asking you about you and you think you need to make yourself sound intelligent.

152 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:22,000 That's really good for interview. So I'm sort of thinking on your feet about examples of things you've done is really helpful.

153 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:28,000 The most helpful thing, though, I think, is just the general project management of doing a PhD.

154 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000 A PhD is a project and it goes on for a really long time.

155 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:40,000 And you have to manage your time. You have to manage the individual tasks that make up the whole and knowing how to do that.

156 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:49,000 And just that process is so helpful not just for applying and telling people that you're good at project management, but also for in the workplace.

157 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,000 I would not be able to organise graduation without any kind of experience of project management.

158 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:04,000 So it's things like that that I think people don't realise that you're not just go to writing articles and researching a very niche topic.

159 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,000 You're also good at thinking more widely and planning really far ahead.

160 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Projects go on. These projects go on for years and you know where you are at any given time and can sort of even if not to other people, to yourself.

161 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,000 You can always, you know,

162 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:28,000 roughly when you think you might be finished and sort of you might tell you might tell people that it's a slightly different time.

163 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,000 I know I did that. I think I would give a date and then in my head, maybe not that day.

164 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000 But that ability is just so helpful and is an example.

165 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:47,000 that I give in interviews all the time. When people say, oh, tell me about how you manage your workload.

166 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Okay, let me tell you a story. Let me tell you all about my PhD

167 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,000 So that is by far the thing I apply the most.

168 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:04,000 And just in general, I think having a bit more experience of communicating with people, of having interviews,

169 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,000 of applying for things, applying for grants or sort of travel scholarships, things like that.

170 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:23,000 And just a bit more experience of how that process works in writing about the benefits of certain of certain ventures and just in general helps.

171 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 I spoke to some people at the assessment centre for the Civil Service.

172 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,000 And I mean, I was very flattered because to begin with, they said, what are you studying? I thought, oh, nice.

173 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:39,000 And they said, you know, they'd found the interview really difficult because they weren't sure what to say.

174 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,000 They didn't have any concrete examples for things and they weren't sure what to

175 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,000 expect when in a one to one situation with an interview or anything like that.

176 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:53,000 But as a student, you have one to one situations all the time with your supervisor.

177 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 And I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but my supervisor used to ask me questions.

178 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:04,000 I did not know the answers so that I had never I hadn't considered before then.

179 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,000 And actually that was a real benefit that I had had that experience. I am quite good now at thinking on my feet.

180 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:17,000 When someone asked me a question, I don't know the answer. But that's not something that everybody has.

181 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:25,000 So it's it's those little things that actually can help in terms of applications and talking to people and communicating,

182 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,000 which I don't think you think about very often when you're doing a PhD

183 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:34,000 It's kind of thinking about these sort of general skill terms think about it Like what you're doing is actually project management.

184 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Yeah. Not just working on a PhD. It's this way. Yeah, exactly.

185 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Like, really useful generalisable skills. I think sometimes when people say if they I know that when I spoke to family

186 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,000 who didn't know what a PhD was and I found it really hard to explain to them.

187 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And it's only sort of since finishing that I go it's a really big project and it

188 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,000 takes three to four years and you have to plan each individual task and they go,

189 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:09,000 oh, okay. But sort of while I was doing my PhD, I'd say, oh, it's like a big essay like that doesn't cover it at all.

190 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,000 And, you know, trying to explain that, I'm sitting at my computer reading books and writing and people.

191 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Okay, I don't really understand what that is and how that counts as work. Yeah.

192 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:28,000 So it is only sort of since finishing I have been able to explain my PhD in terms that aren't just academic.

193 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:38,000 So kind of finding something to be useful if people thought about how to articulate what the individual which is generally just what is a PhD

194 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,000 Yes. Is what it is. Exactly. And I think I don't think there's enough out there.

195 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,000 I don't think people focus on these transferable skills much.

196 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,000 There's a lot of emphasis on transferable skills, undergraduate level,

197 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,000 because the range of subjects that people do, as I've asked, but I think there is a PhD level,

198 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:06,000 there's less of an emphasis on it because there's an expectation that you'll go on to continue researching, even though so many people don't.

199 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:13,000 That was another thing I felt when I. Was first coming to the realisation that I didn't think I wanted to stay in academia.

200 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,000 And I was thinking, well, does this make me a failure? Am I now a failed academic? Is that what I'm going to be called?

201 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:25,000 No. It was only when realising actually how many people I knew that had moved outside of academia.

202 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,000 I know more people that have moved outside of academia than have stayed in it.

203 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:38,000 And it was only when realising that realising that I didn't call them failed. Actually, it was it it was fine.

204 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:43,000 But we do I think we need to have a bit more focus on the fact that lots of people

205 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,000 don't continue in a university role or in a in a research based role after their PhD

206 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000 And that that's okay.

207 00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:04,000 And that a PhD is more than just a research degree is is a feat of product management and time management and managing your own workload

208 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:13,000 and your time and managing to work independently while also having the stresses of the institution or trying to do some teaching.

209 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Or if.

210 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:22,000 If you've got funding bodies that want to know exactly what you're doing and when, then it's there's so much more to it than just the actual thesis.

211 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,000 Yeah. Like, I think sometimes it's couched in terms of being like, oh, this is research training, this is your training.

212 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,000 But actually I'm pretty sure the majority of PhDs don't go on.

213 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:39,000 Yeah. Become academics. Certainly the majority that I know aren't academics and some have.

214 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,000 And that's great. Yeah. But lots haven't

215 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,000 And they've gone into all kinds of different industries.

216 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,000 And I think. Yeah. I think we need to talk about that just a bit more really.

217 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Because it was when I found myself Googling like, what happens if I don't go into academia with a PhD

218 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:07,000 And then like there's a few blog posts and a few things saying, oh, you know, this is what your PhD actually means in terms of skills.

219 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,000 And I went, oh my goodness, I have skills. I'm just writing about film studies.

220 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:18,000 So which I knew, I knew I had skill film studies, but.

221 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,000 But it's nice to actually have that. I have someone to say it's fine.

222 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Yeah. There are other jobs and other jobs that will value your experience as well.

223 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Yeah. That will value your experience. And they might like especially like say in your case, fit better with your life.

224 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Yeah. Like, yeah. I think it's okay to put yourself first,

225 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:52,000 which is something that I didn't do during my PhD really at all and wasn't something that I was doing when I first started looking for jobs.

226 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:02,000 And it was coming to the realisation that I had absolutely no desire to apply for a job that was called what was it called?

227 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:13,000 It was called an unestablished teching fello. I like the fact that that job title even exists, made me go, oh, no, I don't think so.

228 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,000 And I think it's okay to come to that conclusion, I think.

229 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,000 But that's not what I want to say. Yeah.

230 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,000 Like, I've got a partner, I'm ready to maybe buy a house,

231 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:30,000 but actually plant down some roots somewhere rather than constantly wondering where I'm going to be next.

232 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:38,000 So that's that's an okay realisation that I have come to.

233 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,000 And yes, I do miss the teaching. The teaching is the part of it that I do miss.

234 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 But there are so many in any of the jobs that I would have applied for.

235 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,000 There was so much teaching, plus that it's never just teaching.

236 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,000 And that's the same in any teaching profession. And that's not just universities that's teaching in general.

237 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:06,000 And there are always parts of it. I went, oh yeah, I don't think I want that.

238 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,000 But I'm going into the say the stream I'm very into in the civil service is HR.

239 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,000 So it's still really people focussed. And I'm gonna be training,

240 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:22,000 I'm going to be teaching people things and I can use my skills in those ways rather than rather than teaching undergraduates specifically.

241 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000 Yeah. Is again, thinking about it, the skills and the things you enjoy in broader terms saying, yeah,

242 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,000 teaching is not just in schools and university yet it's also training, you know, everywhere.

243 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Really. Yeah. And it was sort of when I was thinking about that and I was thinking, yeah, I want to work with people.

244 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Definitely I want and I would love to be able to have some kind of teaching role in that.

245 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:53,000 But I don't want to be a school teacher. I know lots of school teachers and I think it's admirable, but it's not something I could ever do.

246 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:01,000 So and I think, oh, well, what am I going to do then? And then I was thinking, well, actually, I've gone to training, such as in my job.

247 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 So people run those. That's that's a thing that people do.

248 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,000 And yeah. So it was coming to the conclusions. Really?

249 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,000 I just needed to start thinking outside the box a bit more.

250 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,000 And there aren't just certain jobs that you have to go in to that there's all kinds of all kinds of roles that

251 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,000 you can fulfil and still work with people and still train people and have pass on knowledge and things like that.

252 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:36,000 So, yeah, that's. It's been a long time coming, but it's realisations that I gradually made over sort of the last year.

253 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Yeah. And if, say, someone else, or even just know your past self kind of in the middle of their PhD trying to figure out what they want to do next.

254 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:54,000 Is there any kind of experience you can recommend them getting or anything that you think would be helpful for them to think that would do?

255 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000 I think just thinking about overall what you'd like from a job.

256 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:08,000 So I'm in very broad terms, so I'd like to be able to manage someone or I'm not interested in management,

257 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,000 but I would like to work with people or in some kind of training capacity.

258 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:18,000 So very broad terms that on are neither academic nor non academic.

259 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:27,000 First of all, just to give you a better idea of any kind of sector that you might be able to go in, cause I certainly to begin with was very limiting.

260 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I was I limited myself to sort of higher education. It's a sector I feel really strongly about.

261 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,000 And so I thought, yeah, fine, higher education.

262 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:45,000 But there are so many different roles within higher education that you still need to have sort of an idea of what you want to do.

263 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,000 And I think it's okay to be choosy about jobs.

264 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,000 There was a period of time where I sort of just applied for anything I thought I was vaguely qualified for.

265 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 But then I thought, actually, would I want this job at all? And I really thought about it.

266 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:07,000 The answer was no. So having an idea of at least the kind of role you want and then having a look at what's out there and thinking,

267 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:13,000 okay, so I want to work with people, well, that can mean what kind of people do I want to work with?

268 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,000 And then that can point down all kinds of different roads that sort of aren't what you expected.

269 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,000 I certainly three years ago would never have said that I was gonna go into H.R. and the civil service.

270 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:30,000 That's not something that I had ever considered, but sort of just don't feel like you need to limit yourself.

271 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,000 And thinking in those broad terms can help that, I think.

272 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000 But it can be a it can be a scary place to try and just go. I need a job.

273 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:54,000 I don't know where I am. So, yes, I resisted the urge at one point just to sort of send out a CV and say needs job wll, travel.

274 00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:01,000 But yeah, thinking about that in more broad terms and then being able to pinpoint your sort of top five.

275 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,000 So I wanted a permanent job or at least something that would lead to a permanent job.

276 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And that was really high up on my list of priorities. And then as soon as you've got those priorities,

277 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:20,000 you know sort of what jobs you can apply for and what jobs really aren't worth the application process,

278 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000 because often, especially with academic jobs, I found I was putting my absolute all into an application only to be turned down.

279 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:32,000 And there are only so many rejections you can take before you start taking it personally.

280 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:38,000 So I think and on all of those, I have seen no doubt that really my application,

281 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,000 if you read if you read between the lines, you could see that it was not the job that I wanted.

282 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 And churning out applications will do that sort of you'll become very generic.

283 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:55,000 So having those sort of top five things that you're looking for that you won't compromise on.

284 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,000 So I want a permanent job. I want to work with people.

285 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:05,000 To be honest, they were my top two things. I wasn't really that fussed after that.

286 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:13,000 But at least something, at least some kind of priority will then help you draw your line as to what you apply for and what you do.

287 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Yeah. So just spending some time really reflecting on what matters to them as well.

288 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,000 Yet priorities and and thinking about whether you stay in academia or not.

289 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000 Like, where do those priotities fit in. Yeah, absolutely.

290 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,000 And I mean, to begin with, one of my priorities was I want to be able to carry on my research.

291 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,000 And flexible working options are certainly that that covers that.

292 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,000 I have no desire to completely give up research altogether.

293 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,000 I've spent so long researching and it's part of what I do. And I think it's part of me as a person.

294 00:29:52,000

293 00:29:46,000 -->292 00:29:41,000 -->291 00:29:34,000 -->290 00:29:26,000 -->289 00:29:22,000 -->288 00:29:18,000 -->287 00:29:13,000 -->286 00:29:05,000 -->285 00:28:59,000 -->284 00:28:55,000 -->283 00:28:49,000 -->282 00:28:43,000 -->281 00:28:38,000 -->280 00:28:32,000 -->279 00:28:26,000 -->278 00:28:20,000 -->277 00:28:12,000 -->276 00:28:07,000 -->275 00:28:01,000 -->274 00:27:54,000 -->273 00:27:41,000 -->272 00:27:35,000 -->271 00:27:30,000 -->270 00:27:22,000 -->269 00:27:17,000 -->268 00:27:13,000 -->267 00:27:07,000 -->266 00:26:58,000 -->265 00:26:54,000 -->264 00:26:49,000 -->263 00:26:45,000 -->262 00:26:36,000 -->261 00:26:34,000 -->260 00:26:27,000 -->259 00:26:18,000 -->258 00:26:12,000 -->257 00:26:08,000 -->256 00:25:58,000 -->255 00:25:54,000 -->254 00:25:46,000 -->253 00:25:36,000 -->252 00:25:26,000 -->251 00:25:19,000 -->250 00:25:12,000 -->249 00:25:10,000 -->248 00:25:05,000 -->247 00:25:01,000 -->246 00:24:53,000 -->245 00:24:46,000 -->244 00:24:39,000 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