Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode PhD student Debbie Kinsey talks to Dr Caitlin McDonald, a University of Exeter alumni who now works at the Leading Edge Forum. Today Caitlin is recognised for her domain knowledge in qualitative methods like ethnography and participant-observation.

Music from https://filmmusic.io ’Cheery Monday’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses

Podcast transcript

1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:21,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College

2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 My name's Dr Caitlin McDonald.

3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:31,000 I graduated in 2011 with a degree in Arab and Islamic studies from here at the University of Exeter at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies.

4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 And hard as it is to believe that it's now nine years later.

5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,000 It's it's really interesting to look back on what's happened since that time and

6 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000 consider the skills that I took away from the university and how I'm applying them now.

7 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:53,000 So maybe to give you a bit of an update on where I am. I currently work as a digital anthropologist at an organisation called The Leading Edge Forum,

8 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,000 which does technology and strategy research for large businesses and just in the

9 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Last month I was at the UN delivering a talk at the International Labour Organisation.

10 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:11,000 I then hosted a dinner at the House of Lords about ethics. And I've done a range of interesting and exciting things since then.

11 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000 But it's really interesting to think about this particular month in particular

12 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,000 and how that the kind of culmination of where I started and how I got here.

13 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:28,000 So I started working at the Leading Edge forum about two years ago, and before that I was based at what was the Times educational supplement.

14 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 But it's no longer known as that it's just the tes

15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It's no longer owned by the Times, where I was working as a digital analyst, data analyst and working with data systems quite a bit.

16 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,000 So all of that sounds really different than where I started, which was very much middle easy studies based, but really the kind of the through line.

17 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:55,000 The thread for me was that a lot of the research that I was doing when I was doing my PhD was very digital ethnography based.

18 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:06,000 So I was looking at patterns of knowledge and how they shift around the world, in particular for dancers who often for Middle Eastern dance,

19 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:15,000 want to base their practise or to base the centre at the hub of their knowledge in Cairo or sometimes in Turkey or in other kinds of regions.

20 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,000 But in my particular case, I was looking at dancers who had a dance tradition that is based out of Cairo.

21 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:26,000 And what ended up happening was I did a lot of ethnography around in particular how people were using Facebook groups,

22 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,000 but also other social media channels to spread the knowledge and in the creation of knowledge

23 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:39,000 about how the dance kind of mythology and epistemology of what the dance meant to people.

24 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:47,000 And while this doesn't sound really revolutionary now, way back in 2006, 2007, 2008, when I was first doing that, that was fairly new.

25 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,000 You know, there weren't a huge amount of digital humanities tools at the time.

26 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000 And certainly we weren't using anything like this wonderful lab that we have now. I think this was the old print print shop at the time.

27 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 So it was really interesting. But then what ended up happening is I went to do a very quantitative role,

28 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,000 which when you become an anthropologist, you don't necessarily think of yourself as a quantitative person.

29 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:14,000 Some might. I did not. But it was having that kind of digital skills component that really was able to help me make

30 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,000 the transition from a very academic role into a much more kind of commercially minded role.

31 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:27,000 And I didn't really intend to leave academia, but around the time that I was leaving, there were huge budget cuts.

32 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:35,000 So there simply weren't the kind of resources available for people to have postdocs and subsequent academic careers in particular.

33 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,000 As an immigrant to this country, I was I needed to have a role if I wanted to stay working here.

34 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000 That was not short term. So it had to be a Full-Time full contract.

35 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,000 And luckily, I was able to find something that worked out, which was with the Tes

36 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000 and they really wanted someone who could help them to an extent of their research skills.

37 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But a lot of the role was really about the kind of Day-To-Day operational knowledge to help the business run.

38 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 So that was very, very different from what I previously been doing.

39 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:07,000 But having this kind of interrogative skills, those kind of basics of a humanities research skills,

40 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,000 those basic social sciences research skills was really helpful or for doing things

41 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,000 like helping question why a particular thing was being done in a particular way.

42 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,000 In particular, I was doing a lot of kind of daily reporting of what was happening on the website and what kinds of numbers

43 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:29,000 were coming back in terms of circulation and all those kinds of things that digital businesses do.

44 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And really, the thing that was extremely useful was being able to turn around and say, hey, is anyone actually reading this report?

45 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 You know, something as simple as this ritual that we go through on a daily basis of producing these numbers.

46 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,000 How are they feeding into our decision making?

47 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:49,000 And in some senses, that questioning was perhaps not always very welcome, but it also was that helpful to create the conditions for change.

48 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,000 And I think that the social sciences are not always really great about talking about

49 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 the transferable skills outside of academia that absolutely do exist.

50 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:05,000 And I think now we're starting to see in particular with another research area that I do, which is all around ethics.

51 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 You're starting to see some of those kinds of questions emerging around.

52 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Who is in charge of this knowledge or what are the kinds of different weights that we put on how we assess particular aspects of

53 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:27,000 artificial intelligence and its relevance and its usefulness and how is it relevant to and who's benefiting and who's not benefiting?

54 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:34,000 And I think that having a general social sciences research background, regardless of whether your specialism is in ethics or in,

55 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:42,000 you know, particular aspects of digital technologies, you know, having that kind of questioning mind is is a really useful thing.

56 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:49,000 And I think that people who work in digital context are starting to appreciate those qualitative skills,

57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:58,000 again, in a way that perhaps has been a little bit subsumed recently. So those kinds of questions around how is this going to benefit not only direct

58 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,000 users of our services or our products or whatever it is that we're building,

59 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000 but also that kind of contextual knowledge about how is this affecting other people who are going to be impacted by the decisions that we're making?

60 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:14,000 There is renewed curiosity and interest in those kinds of decisions. And so increasingly, organisations,

61 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,000 businesses and non-commercial organisations are looking to the humanities as well as

62 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:25,000 engineering to to make up the body of knowledge of creating those products effectively.

63 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000 So I would say now is a really good time, actually, to be in the digital humanities.

64 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000 And to some extent, no matter what you're doing, your work is always going to have a digital component.

65 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 So recognising that, you know, when you think about the degree that I did,

66 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:44,000 which was very much based in transmission of knowledge and very much about dance,

67 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,000 you wouldn't necessarily think that that would lead to where it did lead. But in other ways, it makes total sense.

68 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,000 It was a logical chain of transmission. I was looking at the social components of how that knowledge was happening.

69 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And now we are even more immersed in digital technologies. Our careers are even more immersed in this, no matter who you are.

70 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So having that background of having done that, kind of that kind of study was really useful to get me where I am now.

71 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 Yeah, it sounds really interesting. So it sounds like so

72 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 all PhDs are very specific so yours was around dance and transmission of knowledge between dances and creation of knowledge in that way.

73 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But then it sounds you talk about thinking about things, those things more broadly in terms of the general skills we develop.

74 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:32,000 And how did you find translating those things from kind of academic speak to then going into a non-academic, non-academic role?

75 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Yeah. I would say that initially it was a real challenge for me, partly because when I first was looking for a job,

76 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 I still was applying for a very academic roles, as well as starting to look beyond that.

77 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,000 So I was looking at a lot of roles in market research. I was looking at the National Centre for Social Research.

78 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,000 I was looking at ESRA U.K. you know, you go places like that and they have a more kind of traditional, I would say, research bent.

79 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Whereas if you if you move into, you know, user research and a company, for example,

80 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:10,000 and most organisations do have a user research arm if they have a digital component, even if that's not their kind of core business,

81 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,000 but that the language of that is very different from what perhaps you might be talking about

82 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 if you're coming out of the social sciences or have a real kind of pure research background.

83 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,000 So but the advantage of being an anthropologist or a sociologist or someone who

84 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,000 studies the way that people think about knowledge is that you can then apply

85 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,000 all the research skills that you have to your own situation so you can notice

86 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 the kinds of patterns of knowledge that are happening in your organisation.

87 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:41,000 You can notice the particular language that people are using around things and say, OK, you know, this group is talking about doing AB testing.

88 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 You know, I might describe that differently in my own historical research background or whatever it was.

89 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 But actually, the actual things that you need to do, the mechanics of the research are the same.

90 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,000 So simply learning the kind of patterns of the patterns of life and work in

91 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,000 the organisation that you find yourself in is a really useful skill to apply.

92 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,000 So I spent probably two or three years mostly working in a digital engineering team.

93 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:11,000 People that were doing actual software creation. And my role there was to assist with data migration that was happening.

94 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 So we essentially had a place that we'd been storing all of this hard quantitative data

95 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000 that we were collecting over the years about how that Web site that we had was being used.

96 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,000 And then we were changing everything about the underlying infrastructure and technology that we had into a completely different data storage system.

97 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,000 And my role is to make sure that as we were doing that, nothing got lost.

98 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,000 The data was collected in the same way. Nothing was missing.

99 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Nothing suddenly looked out of place. And so part of that was doing things like mapping the infrastructure from how the old data system work,

100 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 doing what's called an entity relationship diagram, and looking at what the new entity relationships would be.

101 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 So the places where the data was collected from the stored.

102 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:59,000 And as I was doing those, I was like, this is a lot like doing essentially is family tree diagrams.

103 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 You know, it's very much the same thing where you're looking at where are things transmitting from A to Z.

104 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 So you can use all those kinds of same skills. And also just the kind of.

105 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 That sense that I would get when I would go in and if I didn't know what people were

106 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,000 talking about or if I felt like there was something unspoken or something happening,

107 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,000 I didn't quite understand, I would behave exactly as though I were doing ethnography with a community,

108 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:30,000 which is to try and treat the knowledge that I was a part of as being something that was that I was studying, you know.

109 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 And so kind of having that observational hat on.

110 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,000 First of all, it really helped defuse some situations that could have otherwise been quite personally demanding.

111 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Because if you just view it as I'm learning about what's going on within this group,

112 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:47,000 then you're kind of personal sense of responsibility about that while still high because you were working there.

113 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,000 It doesn't feel quite so rooted in your own sense of identity, I suppose,

114 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000 because you can also treat it as I'm viewing this as objectively separate from myself.

115 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,000 And also then, you know,

116 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:05,000 eventually you will pick up the lingo and you will learn the skills and you will realise the patterns that are happening within your organisation.

117 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:12,000 And that's really helpful for putting the right pieces in place at the right time to achieve the things that you want to achieve in your career.

118 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like learning the language when you're there using those skills.

119 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 You already have to kind of pick up on that. Precisely.

120 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,000 Yeah. And how did you find it kind of before that stage, kind of making applications,

121 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,000 trying to write and tailor things in such a way that you're using a language you're not quite sure of yet?

122 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,000 And kind of that probably is the hardest piece.

123 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I would say, because you're not yet immersed enough in the transition that you want to make.

124 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:50,000 To really know what you need to say so that your legitimacy of knowledge in that spaces is understood.

125 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 And you also simply don't have the connections, perhaps, that you would do once you've moved into the space.

126 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:03,000 So I'd say if I were going to do anything differently, probably what I would do is, you know,

127 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,000 and especially for students who are listening to this now that are maybe in their first or second year,

128 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 I would have spent a little bit more time thinking about how am I going to make the

129 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,000 kinds of connections I want to make to understand the spaces that are available to me,

130 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,000 like what are the options that are out there? And, B,

131 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:29,000 make the Connections to really form the right network so that at the right time I have the right information about what roles are available and

132 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:38,000 potentially who can introduce me to the right kind of person to to know about a job that's that's out there and the right kinds of skills.

133 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So because skills do change in terms of need, employer need, and what they're looking for will change over time.

134 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:51,000 So having an idea of how that space is shifting will allow you to see not only what's on the on the market right now or what's needed in the market,

135 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000 but you can get an understanding of what's going to be needed by the time I leave,

136 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 because you can kind of observe the trends that are happening and say, OK.

137 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:07,000 So if I put some resources into, for example, learning how to do network mapping or doing a bit more on the kind of digital skill side,

138 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:14,000 then I'll be more valuable than if I'm spending time doing something else. Which isn't to say, of course, that you shouldn't focus on your degree.

139 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I mean, you know, it's such a kind of you have to get over that hurdle more than anything else.

140 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Right? That is the thing to get through. But I'd say a really crucial skill is networking.

141 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,000 And I know that everyone always says that. And people find it can find it very overwhelming.

142 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:39,000 But I think the thing to remember is networking is a skill that allows you to understand

143 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,000 some knowledge that's out there in the world that you don't yet have in an informal way.

144 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 So if you view it in that sense, then it can be less overwhelming.

145 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,000 And I found as well, once I started learning to have an objective when I went to a networking event.

146 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:03,000 So I go to a lot of digital skills, meet ups in London, or I try and attend a lot of webinars or whatever it is I'm trying to learn about.

147 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,000 I look for places where I can find that information and in particular I potentially can

148 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,000 share some information as well because people are always willing to engage with you.

149 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 First of all, if you're interested in them and ask them questions, everyone loves talking about themselves.

150 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000 This is like the crucial skill of good networking is if you can get someone, if you can express interest in them.

151 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,000 People are usually very willing to tell you more about what they're doing,

152 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 but also people are usually have some kind of a need that if you can fulfil that need in some way,

153 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:39,000 like having a slightly adjacent skill or a different skill that they're looking for, then they'll want to talk to you as well.

154 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:47,000 So so building that skill of saying, OK, there is a big data meetup on Wednesday, I'm going to go and

155 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,000 My goal is to find out either a little bit more about this particular topic or to meet someone that works in this

156 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:00,000 business or to find someone that has this job title and just speak to them a little bit about whatever my objective is.

157 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000 Having that focus can really, really make it much easier because you feel less overwhelmed by the idea of networking in general.

158 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:16,000 That can. Huge kind of topic and kind of focussing it on something smaller to achieve can make can make life just a little bit less overwhelming.

159 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think a lot people do get it. Oh, you've got to network.

160 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But then what does that really mean? What does it look like in practise. They kind of.

161 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,000 Yeah. So to get tip of going to something with an objective and kind of having a little bit of reciprocity in that,

162 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:36,000 like maybe there's two things you can offer as well as getting people to talk about themselves.

163 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Yeah. And honestly, the other thing that I would say, which is a really good tip, is even if you're fairly early in your career,

164 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,000 especially if you're looking at a non-academic role, getting up there and being a speaker.

165 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:54,000 So, you know, it gives it gives you a chance to showcase what you're doing or the kinds of knowledge and skills that you have.

166 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000 But it also gives people an excuse to talk to you at a networking event.

167 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 And even if you're an introvert, actually, as scary as it could be to go on stage,

168 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:08,000 giving a talk is a really excellent way of putting the burden on others to come and talk to you so you don't have

169 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,000 to feel like you're trying to muscle your way into someone else or to identify a friendly face in the crowd,

170 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 because everyone knows that you're so and so talked about the thing and then they might want to come ask you questions.

171 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:23,000 So it's a really great way of, you know, it's essentially you saying I'm here, I can talk about this.

172 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,000 And I'd say the real value is that in the personal connections, the one on one connections that you make after you've given the talk.

173 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,000 So even a short you know, in particular, when I think about the technology team,

174 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:40,000 which is mostly what I work in, there are tons of events, in particular London, where I live.

175 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,000 You could probably go to multiple. You'd have your choice of events to go to every evening.

176 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And typically they're very short form talks, two to three minutes about a subject of interest.

177 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,000 So there's usually lots of opportunities to get in and kind of on the ground floor of the ladder of speaking, as it were.

178 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:02,000 If you're in a place that has less accessible resources in that way, there are definitely a lot of online resources.

179 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000 And in particular, I think now that there is so much fear about physically being lots of people together,

180 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000 lots of the kinds of events that I would typically have gone to are going to be thinking about moving online more and more.

181 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And the way that we develop essentially digital etiquette.

182 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:24,000 So, you know, how people develop those kinds of informal connections is going to become increasingly important.

183 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:30,000 You know, it's relatively easy to put together a podcast or a webinar that is one way broadcast content,

184 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,000 but creating those connections that those networking events are really valuable for.

185 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,000 There are very few ways that people are good at that right now. But I think increasingly that's a thing that people will get good at.

186 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 So I'd say look for opportunities in that space where you can not only watch a piece of content,

187 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,000 but also in some way contribute to an ongoing dialogue and meet people through that kind of a mechanism.

188 00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:02,000 I'm trying to think of other examples of good kind of asynchronous or at a distance ways that people can learn and connect with one another.

189 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000 I subscribe to a lot of newsletters about such just some interest to me professionally as well.

190 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Usually reaching out to someone and saying, I read this thing or I have a question about whatever it is,

191 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,000 you won't always have a hundred percent success so that people will get a lot of demands on their time,

192 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 particularly as they get more skilled or experienced in their space.

193 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,000 But often people are again willing to talk about something or willing to connect with you,

194 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,000 you know, to answer a question or to be involved or engaged in something.

195 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,000 People are typically very generous with their time, you know, especially if you're only asking for 10 minutes or, you know,

196 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,000 whatever it is, a small or small chunk of time is usually a good way to go in, particularly if you can be specific about your ask.

197 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:49,000 That really helps people to engage with you quickly is instead of being like, hey, I read your thing, will you be my mentor?

198 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,000 That's that's often too open ended. But if you say I read your thing, it was interesting.

199 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Specifically, I have a question about blah. You can often then open a dialogue in that way.

200 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Yeah. So it kind of being specific and kind of very much time limited when you're asking of people.

201 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:11,000 And yeah. And it's really interesting to think about kind of non sort of Face-To-Face in person ways you can do networking.

202 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,000 I think a lot of people think of networking as you got to go to this event and a lot

203 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,000 of PGRs are part time or they have caring responsibilities and they just think,

204 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,000 oh, I just can't do that. Actually, there are all these other ways that you can get involved.

205 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Yeah. And like I say, I think that those kind of online and asynchronous abilities are where the necessity for those

206 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:34,000 is going to become increasing over the next few months and probably years after that as well.

207 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,000 You know, because businesses have long been looking for ways to encourage less business travel, for example.

208 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,000 And it's always, oh, it's too hard. There's no way to do this. It's impossible.

209 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:49,000 And one of my current research areas is how digital technologies are actually changing the physical spaces that people work.

210 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And so right now is a real kind of fascinating live experiment for me to watch the way the businesses are responding to the current pandemic crisis.

211 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,000 And I think that that really will change a lot of the things that we're thinking about.

212 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 In particular, you look at things like slack channels for technology.

213 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Conferences have always been very popular, but.

214 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,000 It's going from that being a kind of adjacent thing to the event, to being that is the event.

215 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,000 You know, video conferencing again. It's not like that's a new technology,

216 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:24,000 but the way that people get comfortable with using those things in particular in large groups is going to be really interesting.

217 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:31,000 I think how people understand the visual and audio cues that they're getting on multiple person calls is going

218 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:37,000 to be interesting because you often have these kind of slightly weird signals where if you were in person.

219 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,000 So, of course, you know, we're probably sitting about four or five feet apart as we're recording this podcast.

220 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 And that has a particular kind of etiquette about the way that we do distancing

221 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,000 But if you're in a video conferencing situation, people often have the camera at a slightly weird distance.

222 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,000 So you either feel like you're too close or you're too far away.

223 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,000 And that gives different cues to how you perceive that interaction, where they have the microphone to close it.

224 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 It's like they're breathing on you. I don't know if you've had that experience. I'm sure everyone has.

225 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 And it's that really sets up a very different kind of interaction.

226 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 And I think that as these technologies become ever more ubiquitous,

227 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000 people are going to have to be getting better at understanding what those implications

228 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,000 are of sound and eyesight and what that means for people's comfort level of distancing.

229 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 So that for me, is very fascinating subject right now. Yeah, yeah. There's so much to explore.

230 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000 And it's going to be interesting how it develops like over the next couple of months especially.

231 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:35,000 Definitely. And you mentioned that he thought networking would be particularly with people in the early

232 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,000 stage of their PhD just in terms of finding out about what different entities are doing,

233 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000 how things are moving and trends,

234 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:48,000 and then they can use that to think about what skills do I need to pick up and develop and see if someone was interested

235 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:55,000 in doing the kind of work that you do like as a digital anthropologist and all the various things that that's include

236 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,000 What kinds of experiences would be useful for people to try and pick up alongside or as part of the PhD

237 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000 I think one of the it's important to focus on one of the reasons that I think it's important

238 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,000 to do this early in your academic career is because when you are working in academia,

239 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,000 unless you are doing something part time or you have prior experience outside of academia,

240 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,000 the people who are teaching you so often don't have the experience of working outside of academia.

241 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 So they are simply not in a very good position to advise you about if you want to explore non-academic options.

242 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,000 What that transition looks like, what kinds of skills are being looked for.

243 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,000 They can't really advise you on the kind of non-academic lingo unless they themselves are also doing some of this stuff.

244 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 This is all, of course, very context dependent.

245 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,000 You have some departments who are very different or you have university support services which can help you.

246 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:46,000 But in general, my experience when I was a PhD student was that of many others that I spoke to was that they simply weren't

247 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:55,000 able to bridge that gap into the commercial realm because they didn't have the right advice at the time.

248 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,000 And being an anthropologist and someone who does a lot of ethnography

249 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,000 I always think that the best way of learning about something is going to immerse yourself in that thing and then experiencing it for yourself.

250 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:12,000 So finding an internship or some kind of work experience, I know it's less common for older people to be doing those.

251 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:20,000 But you can usually find something. And there are often places that will offer short work placements even to postgraduate students,

252 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,000 although it is you know, sometimes they're not quite very well set up for that. But, you know, there are definitely places that are doing it,

253 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000 especially if they're interested either in your area of research or the kinds of creative skills that

254 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,000 you can bring to the situation that you're looking at and doing those fairly early on in your career.

255 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Gives you an opportunity to understand more about yourself, what you like and what you don't like instead of waiting until the end and thinking, hey,

256 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 I'm just going to sit out in the wide world and having this wonderful badge of my degree is going to

257 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:55,000 tell people something about who I am and the kind of skills I have often in a commercial setting.

258 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:03,000 You know, you might recognise the value of a PhD, but you won't understand how that applies to your business.

259 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,000 So particular for early people who are just out of the PhD

260 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:16,000 It's a hard sell because in essence, from an employer perspective, they're seeing it was just a regular graduate who is a little bit more expensive.

261 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 And that can be challenging to overcome that.

262 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,000 You know, I'd say after your first job or first couple of jobs, when you move it to either a more managerial role or more strategic looking role,

263 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000 then people begin to value your active experience more than they did when you were first out of the gate.

264 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,000 So that's really tough because that's kind of the biggest hurdle is is getting into your first job.

265 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:46,000 It's a very much kind of a catch 22 situation. But coming in from your your postgraduate experience, having had some commercial experience as well,

266 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:52,000 puts you in a much stronger position than to be looking at a commercial role because people can

267 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,000 people make assumptions about your commercial experience when they're reviewing your CV or your,

268 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,000 you know, as you're being in your hiring process than they will about someone who's just coming with no experience.

269 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,000 That's obvious to them. Yeah. So it sounds like it's really important.

270 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000 First, few roles to really think to really keep in mind that someone else won't know, understand what a PhD is.

271 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Also all the skills involved. So you really have to work at both getting other experiences,

272 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000 maybe then also how you kind of market those things, I guess what those skills mean from your PhD.

273 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000 It's not just I did this degree and there's nothing about it that makes sense.

274 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it's worth remembering that in a commercial setting, the word research can mean very different things.

275 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:47,000 So I'm doing some doing a little bit of research on what is the commercial we're looking for and what do those kinds of roles do.

276 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:55,000 And if I'm if I'm right. Gosh, the PGR resource that I'm forgetting the name of.

277 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000 But it's like

277 00:25:55,000 -->276 00:25:47,000 -->275 00:25:39,000 -->274 00:25:31,000 -->273 00:25:27,000 -->272 00:25:21,000 -->271 00:25:16,000 -->270 00:25:08,000 -->269 00:25:03,000 -->268 00:24:57,000 -->267 00:24:52,000 -->266 00:24:46,000 -->265 00:24:37,000 -->264 00:24:33,000 -->263 00:24:27,000 -->262 00:24:18,000 -->261 00:24:16,000 -->260 00:24:09,000 -->259 00:24:03,000 -->258 00:23:55,000 -->257 00:23:48,000 -->256 00:23:42,000 -->255 00:23:35,000 -->254 00:23:29,000 -->253 00:23:26,000 -->252 00:23:20,000 -->251 00:23:12,000 -->250 00:23:05,000 -->249 00:22:59,000 -->248 00:22:55,000 -->247 00:22:46,000 -->246 00:22:39,000 -->245 00:22:35,000 -->244 00:22:33,000 -->243 00:22:28,000 -->242 00:22:25,000 -->241 00:22:19,000 -->240 00:22:14,000 -->239 00:22:09,000 -->238 00:22:05,000 -->237 00:22:01,000 -->236 00:21:55,000 -->235 00:21:48,000 -->234 00:21:42,000 -->233 00:21:41,000 -->232 00:21:35,000 -->231 00:21:29,000 -->230 00:21:25,000 -->229 00:21:21,000 -->228 00:21:17,000 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