The Trial

Daily Mail

The Trial goes behind the headlines of some of the biggest trials in the world.

We take you into the courtroom, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.

Follow us on X @thetrialpodcast

Contact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.uk

Leave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')

A Daily Mail Production

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Our Editor's Take

The Trial is a true crime podcast series from the Daily Mail. Each season focuses on the primary criminal or victim in a different trial.

Liz Hull is one host of The Trial. She is the Daily Mail's reporter for news stories in Northern England. Liz holds a history degree from Nottingham University. Host Caroline Cheetham is a broadcast reporter and educator. She teaches at the University of Salford and serves as director for The Media Factory. The two hosts use their journalism experience to provide detailed trial coverage.

The podcast's first season follows the harrowing case of Lucy Letby. The British nurse was responsible for the deaths of seven newborns in her care. She attempted to murder at least six other infants. Some suspect Letby claimed other newborn victims during her medical training. However, these allegations are speculative. Investigators determined that Letby used several methods for the horrific crimes. Her methods included air injections, overfeeding, and other abuses.

The Trial's second season covers the murder of Ashling Murphy. The Irish school teacher and musician suffered a brutal stabbing at the hands of Jozef Puška. The Slovak Romani man had no previous record of violence. Ashling's killing seemed to be random, with no real motive. Several eyewitnesses identified the killer, but his family withheld information from police. The family members stood trial for impeding the investigation.

The Trial: Brianna Ghey is the third season of the series. Hosts Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham report on the court proceedings in detail. Episodes follow the UK's prosecution of the murderers of 16-year-old Brianna Ghey. Ghey was a transgender girl who had amassed a following on social media. The killers were two 15-year-olds who stabbed Ghey to death in Culcheth. The courts made the identities of the killers confidential until February 2024.

Season four of the podcast features Cheetham and reporter Jack Hardy. The season examines Brighton couple Mark Gordon and Constance Marten. The two stand accused of the murder of their newborn daughter, Victoria. Both defendants deny their guilt.

For each season, new episodes of The Trial are available twice a week.

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Coming Soon: The Apple & The Tree

Coming Soon: The Apple & The Tree

Launching Friday 19th April, Vogue Williams hosts The Apple and The Tree, a brand new podcast where a parent and their adult child get to ask each other about the parts of their shared history they’ve always wanted to know more about, but never given themselves the time to do so. These are deep, intimate and revealing conversations that move through love, grief, shame, sexuality, religion, addiction, identity and so much more.‌Because these shows were recorded in our guest’s own homes, it’s like you’ve been invited in to sit alongside them and hear exactly how their lives have unfurled. At the end of each episode, Vogue and the guests unpack what’s been shared to discover if the apple really does fall far from the tree.Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Episodes

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Judge

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Judge

In this episode Caroline and Jack bring you the Judge, Mark Lucraft KC. His job now, at the end of this trial, is to sum up this case, to remind the jury of the evidence they've heard. Today he reminded them what Constance Marten had told them as she spent several days in the witness box. He also referred to the evidence from the two pathologists who had told them Victoria's body was so decomposed they could not conclude how she died. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: ‘Are any of these things criminal?’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: ‘Are any of these things criminal?’

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the closing speech of Constance Marten's barrister, Francis Fitzgibbon KC, as he urged jurors to acquit her of the killing of her baby, Victoria. He told the Old Bailey 'the evidence isn't there' to convict the aristocrat and her partner Mark Gordon over Victoria's death and accused the prosecution of describing the baby as 'it' which, he said, was 'jarring and dehumanising'. The episode will also feature his suggestion that jurors should ignore the 'nasty bit of class prejudice' used by the prosecution to 'smear' her.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: It was a tragic accident

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: It was a tragic accident

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the defence closing speech made on behalf of Mark Gordon by John Femi-Ola KC. He describes Constance Marten as a 'lioness' protecting her cubs and said the death of Baby Victoria was a 'tragic accident'. The episode also features the end of prosecutor Tom Little KC's closing speech.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: Big Fat Lies

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: Big Fat Lies

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the closing speech of the Prosecutor Tom Little KC. He told the jury Constance Marten had told “big fat lies” in her defence. Lies, he said, which “fell like confetti from her lips”. And he said despite Mark Gordon “grandstanding” to police about his “rights” he had refused to give evidence when the moment arrived. He said Victoria was caught in the middle of her parents toxic relationship, she was freezing cold, and she never stood a chance.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: The Private Detectives

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: The Private Detectives

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you more of the tense exchange between Professor Peter Fleming and Tom Little KC. The court has also been told that Constance Marten’s parents did hire private investigators to try to track her down, but they said this was not when she was on the run with baby Victoria.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Coming Soon: The Apple & The Tree

Coming Soon: The Apple & The Tree

Launching Friday 19th April, Vogue Williams hosts The Apple and The Tree, a brand new podcast where a parent and their adult child get to ask each other about the parts of their shared history they’ve always wanted to know more about, but never given themselves the time to do so. These are deep, intimate and revealing conversations that move through love, grief, shame, sexuality, religion, addiction, identity and so much more.‌Because these shows were recorded in our guest’s own homes, it’s like you’ve been invited in to sit alongside them and hear exactly how their lives have unfurled. At the end of each episode, Vogue and the guests unpack what’s been shared to discover if the apple really does fall far from the tree.Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: "No evidence of hypothermia"

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: "No evidence of hypothermia"

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you a key witness in the defence case of Constance Marten - an expert who investigates the unexpected death of babies. Prof Peter Fleming told the court he thought Constance Marten’s account was ‘extraordinarily consistent’ and cast doubt on how the prosecution say Baby Victoria died.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Whatever you do, don’t say she died in your arms.”

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Whatever you do, don’t say she died in your arms.”

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the final day of Constance Marten’s evidence from the witness box as she told jurors she had wanted to get an autopsy for her baby in the hope she would find the death wasn’t her fault. The episode also features her claim that she had neglected herself to the point of exhaustion in trying to look after Baby Victoria - and it was this exhaustion that ultimately led her to fall asleep with the child in her arms, she said.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: ‘Jesus survived in a barn’

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: ‘Jesus survived in a barn’

In this episode, Caroline and Jack will bring you the latest from the evidence of Constance Marten, as she defended her decision to take her newborn baby into a tent in the middle of winter - saying that 'Jesus survived in a barn'. The episode will also feature claims that a man Constance Marten said inspired her plan to flee abroad has also used his website to encourage children to invent bomb plots against social workers.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: ‘Selling children on the black market’

Constance Marten & Mark Gordon: ‘Selling children on the black market’

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the latest from the prosecution's cross-examination of Constance Marten, in which she claims her family placed a travel ban on her by telling the court she was having children to sell illegally and that she was addicted to drugs. The episode also features her claims that she was planning to try to find a people-smuggling nanny on Gumtree to bring her newborn baby Victoria abroad.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Let’s just call it quits.”

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Let’s just call it quits.”

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you more from the evidence of Constance Marten as she reveals she and Mark Gordon considered taking their own lives after the death of their baby Victoria in February 2023. The episode also features the start of the cross-examination as the prosecution question Constance Marten’s decision making in the baby’s final days.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Constance Marten gives evidence

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Constance Marten gives evidence

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you all the latest from the first day of the evidence of Constance Marten in the witness box at the Old Bailey, where she told jurors that she was fleeing from her family as well as social services when she went on the run with Mark Gordon and their newborn baby Victoria - but denied ever carrying her in a bag-for-life. The episode will also feature a recap of Mark Gordon's defence case.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Prosecution Closes its Case

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Prosecution Closes its Case

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the latest evidence from the Old Bailey, where the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon heard from two pathologists about the possible ways in which Baby Victoria died while on the South Downs when the couple were on the run last year. The episode will also feature the poignant moment jurors were allowed to examine the baby gro that the infant wore for much of her short life.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: ‘Alternative lifestyle’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: ‘Alternative lifestyle’

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the latest from the Old Bailey, where jurors were told about Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s history with social services and why a family court decided to take their previous four children into care. The episode will also feature the evidence of an expert in paediatric health - who said a newborn baby could die within hours in the wintery conditions on the South Downs when the couple were camping with their baby in a tent last year.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Let’s go give the baby in”

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Let’s go give the baby in”

In this episode Caroline and Jack have the interview Mark Gordon gave to the detectives investigating the case. He tells them the couple discussed giving the baby up, but the following morning she had died, and even though he tried to give her CPR, it didn’t work. He told them when Victoria died it was every parents worst dread. We’ll also bring you the evidence that Constance Marten had over £19,000 in her bank account when the couple were on the run, but she made no cash withdrawals after January 5th, when they were staying in hotels, sleeping in taxis and living in a tent on the South Downs. Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Painted as Villains”

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: “Painted as Villains”

In this episode Caroline and Jack bring the full police interviews with Constance Marten which took place after the body of Victoria had been found. Constance Marten told detectives the couple were portrayed as villains when they were on the run, and she said the media storm made her too afraid to hand herself in. After Victoria died she said she wanted to bury her but the couple hadn’t eaten for weeks, so were too weak to dig a grave. The episode will also bring more information about why the couple’s other four children were taken into care.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Body in the Shed

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Body in the Shed

In this episode, Caroline and Jack will bring you the latest from the Old Bailey, where the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon heard about the moment police finally found the body of Baby Victoria in a shed in March 2023, nearly two months after the couple allegedly went on the run with her. The episode will also feature details of their police interviews, both before and after the discovery of the baby's body. The jury saw footage of a tearful Constance Marten tell police about her baby's death.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Where’s the baby?

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Where’s the baby?

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the latest from the Old Bailey, where the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon was dramatically halted last week after an explosion under the court. The episode will also feature evidence about the final days the couple spent on the run, when they appeared to scavenge in bins for food, as well as the eyewitness account of the man who set in motion their arrest after growing suspicious of the couple outside a corner shop in Brighton. The jury also heard from the police officers who were first on the scene to arrest the couple - one of whom saw something strange stuffed inside the jacket of Constance Marten. Both defendants deny the charges against them.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail ProductionHosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Esther Ghey: A Mother’s Story

Esther Ghey: A Mother’s Story

In this special extended episode Caroline and Liz speak to Esther Ghey, the mother of Brianna. In her first in depth audio interview, Esther tells them about the moment she learned her daughter had been murdered, how she has coped with the past 12 months and how she plans to mark the anniversary of Brianna’s death on Sunday.She also speaks passionately about her determination to make positive change for children, by campaigning for new legislation around mobile phones and social media, and improving mental resilience with mindfulness teachers in schools.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp +44 7796 657 512This is a Mail Metro Media Production. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Arrest

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: The Arrest

In this episode, Caroline and Jack bring you the dramatic bodycam footage of the moment Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are finally arrested after weeks on the run. In the footage both are asked repeatedly where the baby is, but neither give an answer. The episode also outlines the evidence from a woman who says she was awoken on two consecutive nights in her house on the edge of the South Downs by the sound of a baby crying. A few days later, she said that she saw a couple resembling Mark Gordon and Constance Marten on a coastal path near her home, as well as a blue tent nearby. This episode will also feature evidence from a man whose wife gave evidence last week about an alleged sighting of Constance Marten carrying a dead child. He told the court that he and his wife returned to the park where she made the sighting so that they could carry out their own detective work. The jury were also shown CCTV of the moment Constance Marten bought some petrol from a Texaco garage on January 12 2023 - which she later told police that she had intended to use to cremate the remains of Baby Victoria. Both defendants deny the charges against them.Warning: This podcast references court proceedings which detail the death and alleged abuse of a child in detail.Follow the evidence as the jury hears it, in twice-weekly reports from broadcaster and journalist Caroline Cheetham, along with news reporter Jack Hardy.They’ll take you into London's Old Bailey, bringing you the detail as the evidence unfolds, examining key moments and carrying out exclusive interviews with detectives, victims, and experts.Follow us on X @thetrialpodcastContact us at thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukLeave a comment on Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')This is a Daily Mail ProductionHosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.