Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we delve into the intricate journeys of students, alumni, and experts navigating the rigorous paths of graduate education. Each episode captures the essence of what it means to strive for and achieve success in grad school. This week, we were thrilled to have Elias Fanous, an attorney based in Flint, join us to share his unique journey from undergraduate studies to a flourishing legal career. Finding That Initial Spark During his time at the University of Michigan Flint, Elias always had law school at the back of his mind. Nonetheless, like many students, he found himself meandering through core classes, uncertain of the next steps. His journey took a pivotal turn when he encountered Dr. Albert Price in a Constitutional Law prep course. This class not only rekindled his interest in law but also clarified his career aspirations. Thanks to the unwavering support from Dr. Price and other faculty members like Dr. Joseph Rami and Derwin Monroe, Elias started contemplating graduate school more seriously. Navigating Post-Undergraduate Uncertainty Post-graduation, Elias opted to work in his family’s convenience store business. However, the desire to pursue law reemerged. The tipping point came one late night during a grueling third shift. Tired and seeking more significant opportunities, Elias decided to apply to Cooley Law School. The decision wasn’t immediate or easy due to concerns about potential debt and lifestyle changes. Nevertheless, seeing his cousin Alexandra’s success as a Cooley graduate validated his choice. The Grad School Transition The Initial Hurdles Transitioning into law school wasn’t a walk in the park. Elias soon realized that his undergraduate study techniques wouldn’t suffice. The rigorous coursework and Socratic teaching method at Cooley demanded a change in his approach towards studying. It was a humbling experience, especially when he found himself unprepared for impromptu questions in class. Developing Effective Study Strategies Elias began to tweak his learning style each semester, taking advantage of tutorials, class outlines, and connecting with upper-level students. The continuous adjustments and improved study techniques eventually culminated in consistently better grades. "If I would have studied like this during undergrad, my GPA would have been much higher," he reflects. Finding Leadership and Balance Embracing Leadership Roles In addition to academics, Elias immersed himself in the student community. He started as a senator in the Student Bar Association, gradually moving up to become the Student Body President for the Lansing campus. Engaging with diverse student leaders and faculty helped him develop problem-solving skills and a solid professional network. The Impact on Career While leading various campus initiatives, Elias honed his ability to balance responsibilities, a skill that proved crucial in his legal career. The relationships built during these times opened doors in his professional life, including landing his first office space through connections made via Dean Don LaDuke. These experiences taught Elias to handle practical aspects of law efficiently, preparing him for the demands of a legal career. The Real-World Application of Education Professional Success and Community Impact Today, Elias is entrenched in the legal community as a public defender and a burgeoning leader within the County Bar Association. He credits his law school experiences, especially the leadership roles, for equipping him with necessary tools to build a thriving practice. More importantly, Elias has carried forward the ethos of helping others, a lesson he learned from mentors in Genesee County. Overcoming Personal Trials Elias’s career is also marked by personal resilience. The support from his professional community was instrumental when he faced tragic personal loss during the early years of the COVID-19 pandemic. This collective camaraderie reaffirmed the importance of building strong, supportive networks. Advice for Future Grad Students Research and Goals Elias emphasizes the importance of researching potential graduate schools thoroughly. Prospective students should look into the faculty's accomplishments, the school's reputation, and how well it aligns with their career goals. He advises making a comprehensive goal list to ascertain if a particular program meets their ambitions. Cultivating Relationships Building relationships with faculty and peers can make a significant difference. As Elias’s story illustrates, these connections can offer invaluable support and professional opportunities. Elias Fanous’s journey underscores the multifaceted experience of graduate school. It’s about embracing change, cultivating relationships, and balancing various responsibilities. His story is a testament to the transformative power of education and community support, offering inspiration for current and future grad students aiming to carve out their paths in the professional world.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. You may be at the very beginning just starting to think about, hey, do I wanna do this graduate school thing? You might be a little bit further along. You might have that application in your hands and sweating it a little bit, trying to figure out, am I gonna actually submit it? Or maybe you did submit it, and you're waiting on an answer. And you're trying to figure out, okay. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: What do I have to do next? What do I have to do to prepare myself for this? What do I have to do once I'm in graduate school? And this podcast is here for you because every week, I love being able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to be able to identify things that you can do to find success in the upcoming graduate school journey that you're going to be on. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have had different experiences, that have gone through that graduate school experience and have been successful in that experience. And in the end, they've gotten their degree. They're out in they're out and being successful in that in that career that they wanted to get into, And they're here to help you, to give you some tools for that toolbox and help you to be able to know what you can do now to prepare yourself well. This week, we got another great guest with us. Elias Fanous is with us today. And Elias is a attorney in the Flint area working in a number of different areas. We'll talk a little bit about some of the work that he's done. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: He ended up getting his bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get his law degree at Cooley Law School. Really excited to have him here to talk about his experience and to share that experience with you. Elias, thanks so much for being here today. Elias Fanous [00:02:03]: Oh, thanks for having me. It's been I know we've been trying to do this for quite some time, so finally glad to be able to sit down and talk to you about my journey. Well, the Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: first thing that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go on from your undergraduate degree and go to law school. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Elias Fanous [00:02:29]: I always had in the back of my mind law school. It was always something I wanted to do or thought I wanted to do. But when I got to U of M, Flint, I guess I was kinda like every student. You're not really sure what you're doing. You're taking your core classes and trying to figure out, okay, what's the next step for me? I was very fortunate. I knew I was gonna be a political science major, and I had probably, in my opinion, the best adviser that someone could have, especially at that time, and that was doctor Albert Price. And I believe he's retired now, but I must've had probably 4 or 5 classes with him. But in his Con Law prep course or however you wanna call it, that's when it really started clicking. Elias Fanous [00:03:06]: You know, we're going through these monumental supreme court cases from the very beginning up until actually, we also talked because at that time, we had the 2,000 president election, the Chad Gate, if you will, Al Gore and president Bush. And we also saw a flip in the leadership of the Supreme Court with Justice Roberts being named as chief, calling the death of justice Rehnquist. But I think I would say it was in that class that really kinda reignited the fire. Let's go to law school. That's the goal. And in talking with Doctor. Price, and also had other faculty members that I talked to, doctor Joseph Rami in the history department, and then Derwin Monroe in the political science department as well, really kinda helped drive that next step. It didn't happen right away, but they definitely helped me get to that point. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:53]: As you said, it didn't happen right away. So you graduated from your undergraduate experience and you at some point, few years out, you make a decision. You make a decision, it's time. It's time to take that LSAT. It's time to go further, and it's time to start looking at law schools. And you end up attending Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that process for yourself. How did you end up finally deciding this is the time? But 2, how did you decide out of all of the law schools across the nation that you wanted to attend Cooley Law School? Elias Fanous [00:04:26]: Sure. So, you know, I took the LSAT. I think it was the fall of my senior year at U of M Flint or my last semester or or whatnot, and and got my score back. It wasn't the best score in the world, but it wasn't the worst score in the world. I graduated, and I went immediately into work with my family. We had convenience stores. In fact, my dad still runs a convenience store. And I did that for a couple of years, and I kept going back in my head as do I wanna take on the debt? Because fortunate for me, when I was at U of M Flint, it wasn't as expensive as it is now. Elias Fanous [00:04:55]: So I was able to pay my way through school in the early 2000. And so the big the big hurdle for me was, a, do I want that debt? Do I want that life? So I was going back and forth. I was working, and I think it was just somebody had called in sick, and I ended up having to work 3rd shift that night. So I'd already worked from 3 to 11, and I had to work from 11 to 7. And I said, you know what? This is enough is enough. It was in November. So went online and put in an application to Cooley, and I chose Cooley. That was the school I wanted to go to. Elias Fanous [00:05:27]: A, I didn't have the best grades in the whole wide world when I was at U of M Flint, and that was just because I really didn't apply myself. And I'll tell you why I feel that way later. But my cousin, Alexandra, had gone to Cooley, and she had graduated and was already being successful. So I was like, woah, wait a minute. And at that time, Cooley was known as a school that makes you a lawyer, not teaches you the law, but prepares you to to actually practice law. So I applied and it was it was like December 26 or 27. It was right after Christmas. I got an email saying I had been accepted, and I could start in January 2009. Elias Fanous [00:06:04]: So it took me about 4 days to find an apartment and start the financial paperwork. But, yeah, Cooley was where I wanted to go because I had family that had gone there, and I saw the product that Cooley was putting out at that time. And to me, that was really important because I wanted to learn to be a lawyer, not just learn the law. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:20]: Now I know you said that in your undergrad, you weren't happy with how you did as a student and how much you put into your education to be able to get out what you got out of it. And as you make that transition into any graduate program, it is a transition because you're taught in one way as an undergraduate student. And especially when you leave an undergraduate degree, you go out for a couple of years. You and then you have to get your mind back into school and figure out what not only it means to get back into school, but also what it means to start in a completely different way of learning. So talk to me about that transition for yourself because you were able to make that transition into law school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in that transition? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through all of the 3 years in law school? Elias Fanous [00:07:19]: So in undergrad, I just you would show up to class, listen to somebody lecture, you'd take some notes, and then you hope for the best if you will. That's kinda how I approached undergrad. I was very active at U of M Flint, especially with the Greek community. I was president of my fraternity at U of at the University of Michigan Flint twice, actually, and so I didn't focus as much on my studies. I did enough to get by. I got good grades. It just wasn't to where my standard should have been. And it was more of I don't wanna say I wasn't pushed to get to where I needed to be, but I didn't have the enthusiasm, I guess, is the way to kinda put it where okay. Elias Fanous [00:07:53]: I went to class. I took notes and lectures, and I was already thinking, what am I gonna do tonight? What am I what's going on? When I got to law school, Cooley immediately kinda became readily available that or readily kinda knowledgeable that you gotta do something different. You can't just go and take notes and expect to to succeed. I had a intro to law class that, at the time, had everyone take, and it was a great wake up call because you try and study the way you used to study, and it just it wasn't enough. And then we had a Socratic method in law school where you get assigned these readings, you gotta do them, and then you just kinda sometimes kinda duck behind your laptop and pray the teacher doesn't pick on you to to recite a case. And, I mean, right away, I I was called on in my contract scores. 1st year, professor Otto Stockmeyer, who's like a contracts guru, and it was humbling. You think you know it, and then you don't really know it, and you don't really get what they're trying to give you out of the case law. Elias Fanous [00:08:45]: And then it kinda shifted my focus. Alright. Let's really prepare. Let's really understand what the material is. And if you don't understand something, go get assistance. And then at that time, the student bar association at Cooley, which I was ultimately involved in, since how you and I had met, had these class outlines that you could buy, and there was tutorials and tutors. So I took advantage of that, those sort of things. And then I wanted to be a part of different organizations at Cooley and wanted to be a leader. Elias Fanous [00:09:12]: I was a leader in undergrad with my fraternity in the Greek life, but I wasn't really a leader in the student body, if that makes sense. And I wanted to be that. And I knew that if I was gonna be successful in law school and do that, I had to make sure I maintained my grades and and got good grades. And I made a deal with my cousin, Alex, who, like I told you before, she had graduated earlier. He said, you can't do any of that stuff if you don't get good grades. So that 1st semester, the 1st term at law school, I kinda hunkered down, made sure I I was able to pull passing grades because you hear all the horror stories. You spend all this money in your 1st term, term at law school and 35% of the classes vanished after week 6 of the 2nd term when the grades finally get posted. So once I got decent grades that first term, I was able to kinda use what I had learned that 1st semester and then tweak my learning style to get better. Elias Fanous [00:10:04]: And every semester, I would take what I learned and the good and the bad and the ugly because there are ugly times too and tweak it. And ultimately, my grades started going up higher than they've ever been before. And I thought to myself, I would have studied like this at undergrad. I would have had a much better GPA and probably would have gone maybe to a different school, but everything happens for a reason and Cooley truly prepared me. I know there's a lot of negative stuff nowadays about the law school. But when I was there, and I'll call it the heyday of Cooley because that's what it was. Let's be honest. It was a great place to learn and a great place to prepare yourself to be a lawyer. Elias Fanous [00:10:39]: And as I kept applying those different strategies throughout every semester, it just got better and better. And then I found out that as I am embracing the different leadership roles, not only through the Student Bar Association, but through different various organizations on campus, My grades kept getting better because I made more connections. And if I didn't understand a specific theory of law, I can go talk to somebody in one of those other organizations or another professor to really help kinda hone that that knowledge in and then it worked amazingly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:07]: Now you talked about the fact that you did get involved in your law school experience. You found ways to find that niche for yourself, but also found ways to be able to become a leader for the entire campus, becoming the student body president for the Lansing campus of Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that experience because not every student will decide to get involved outside of that academic experience. What did that do for you? And what do you say to others that are thinking about graduate school in regard to doing that balance of school versus the out of class experiences? Elias Fanous [00:11:43]: I look back at my time in the Student Bar Association, not just as a class senator because I was I started off as a senator. And the nice thing about that was I got to meet other students that were further ahead than I was in law school and from different parts of the country and different viewpoints. And I still keep in touch with a great deal of them today, and that really kinda opened my eyes. Someone has this different mindset, and you can kinda talk to them and see what's going on. But it was a camaraderie. We're all sitting there in law school. We're all stressing our futures. We're stressing finals. Elias Fanous [00:12:14]: We're stressing, you know, at the time, you know, someone's in research and writing or in the moot court program or on a national trial team, which I am ultimately doing as well, you've kinda said bond, forged, and fire, if that makes sense. And being part of that really kinda drove me to, okay, I wanna run for student body president. And being at that campus in Lansing, I guess, talk specifically about Lansing because I don't really know the lifestyle that it was in Auburn Hills or Grand Rapids at that time. But you'd walk into the Cooley Center, and everyone was just kinda hanging out down there. It was always full, and people would say, hey, how you doing? And you could just jump into a different study group wherever you went, and people had this kind of bond of, hey, we're gonna help each other. And being president of the Student Bar Association was fantastic. I got to meet leaders from other campuses. I got to get really intimately involved with the day to day operations of the law school with my relationship with, at that time, Dean Don LaDuke. Elias Fanous [00:13:09]: I got to know you quite well. You're our advisor. And it really set things up for the future. It turned out that because I worked so well with dean Don LaDuke, when I came back to Flint to practice law, I had gone to a couple different association meetings, mainly the bar association meeting and then the Centennial ends of court. And I was introduced as a new attorney, and I had met a gentleman by the name of Carl Bacosti. And I owe Carl a great deal, great man. He had gone to law school with Donald Duke. And when he found out I went to Cooley, he had reached out to Donald Duke. Elias Fanous [00:13:39]: And because I was able to cultivate those relationships from being student bar president, helped me land my first office. And one thing that I will reach to the end of my days as an attorney is that first year and a half, Carl wouldn't charge me rent. He gave me office space to get under your feet. And I said, well, how can I ever repay you? And he said, just do it to the next person, and I will continue to always do that. But being that leader and going to different campuses, seeing what's going on, we had a lot of, as you may remember, we had a lot of issues between the campuses and trying to kind of figure out what's going on. And then there was political issues within the law school. It taught me how to problem solve and also kind of direct so we had different sub committees and I had to learn how to balance the sub definitely the definitely the best decision I ever made to get involved. But I would caution people, don't get involved until you have your grades right. Elias Fanous [00:14:31]: Because it took a lot of time. It was a lot of energy. And I'm glad I waited to make sure that I had the proper grades, the proper studying techniques to get to that next level. Because if I didn't, you'd crash out. You simply would just crash out. And there were people that did. There were people in my class that tried to get involved right off the bat, and they just kinda misappropriated their time. And for one reason or another, they didn't they didn't last, unfortunately. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:54]: Well, now you are in your profession. You are practicing in a very busy way. You are a public defender. You are doing a lot of other work outside of that public defending work as well. You're currently running for office for a judge position. So you've got a lot of things going on. As you reflect back to that education that you got, how do you feel that that education prepared you for the things that you're doing on a daily basis? Elias Fanous [00:15:19]: Specifically with respect to Cooley, I had some great mentors there as well. But Cooley truly prepared me to how to be a lawyer. So I wasn't, like, walking in trying to figure out how am I gonna run a practice. It was the relationships that you cultivate. It was the work ethic that you cultivate and it was also the ability to communicate. Those are the 3 big things for me and I picked a great county to stay in. I was born and raised here, and I often tell people Genesee County is the best county in the state of Michigan to practice law. Everyone is very friendly and very helpful to one another. Elias Fanous [00:15:52]: There's a couple of drays out there that don't subscribe to that mindset, but I would say 98% of the the attorneys in the county will help each other no matter what. And I can truly speak to that because I went through some really tough and dark times in the beginning of COVID with the loss of my wife. So I had to take a step back from practicing law. She had just given birth to our son, our first child, and then she passed away, you know, tragically 11 days later. And I had attorneys coming out of the woodwork. Hey. Can we cover your cases? Doing things via Zoom. Whatever you need, we'll get it done for you. Elias Fanous [00:16:26]: And the the community rallied a little bit around me and allowed me to kinda get through that grieving process and then to get back into the swing of things as far as practicing law. But had I not had the experiences at Cooley with respect to making those kind of relationships and understanding how things work, because it's not just black and white. Practicing law is a lot of gray. And that really helped me get my foothold in here in Genesee County, talk to people, kinda cultivate those relationships the same way I did when I was student bar president, and then it just paid out in dividends. And it still does to this day. I'm in a leadership role right now with with the County Bar Association. I'm the incoming vice president for the County Bar Association, and next year, I'll be the president. We kinda have a graduation step. Elias Fanous [00:17:09]: You know, you start off as the secretary, then you move into the treasurer position, then vice president. And so you're learning about the next job from the next person who's doing it at the same time. And it's just like being in school again. You're watching how someone does something, taking notes, and trying to understand the thought process, the rationale, and then you take that next step and do the same thing. And that kind of translated itself into into my practice. And my practice is thriving. I'm very excited about it. I'm excited about the future, and we'll see what the future holds here in a few weeks with respect to the judicial campaign. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:41]: Now as you think about people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be law school or not, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every individual thinking about that? Elias Fanous [00:17:50]: The first thing I would say is research the school. Find out if you know. For example, for me, I didn't know that I wanted to be a litigator. I didn't know I wanted to be in public defender work until I got to law school, but I knew what the relationship was with different areas with Cooley, and I knew the history of the school at the time. And so research the school. Figure out exactly what you wanna get out of it. Make a goal list. You know, what do you wanna accomplish outside of just getting your degree? And this school that you picked, is it gonna fit those goals? And then once you do that, reach out, find people that have gone there, and get their opinions. Elias Fanous [00:18:23]: For me, it was a blessing that my cousin had just had recently within 3 years had graduated from the law school, and it really helped sell the school to me. And then once, once you figure out that which school it is and you've talked to people, then sit down and contemplate it. Write a goal list and pros and cons. Because for some people, they're gonna move away. They're gonna go to a school outside of Michigan or outside of wherever they're from, And you also have to kind of balance that as well because it does make things difficult when you gotta come home for certain things or you wanna come home and maybe you can't on the drop of a hat. So, but for sure, always research the school, look at who their faculty are, and see what kind of accomplishments they have. Is it purely academic? Or is there more tangible, you know, work in the field being done with that school as well? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: Well, Elias, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for sharing what you learned in this process, and what helped you to find success, and I wish you all the best. Elias Fanous [00:19:16]: Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School podcast, where we explore the graduate school journeys of people and what they had to do to find success in this journey. Today, we welcome Robb King, a seasoned professional in public relations, who shares his insights on the importance of ongoing education and the significant transitions that come with it. The Spark for Continued Education Robb King’s professional narrative began with an undergraduate degree in communications from the University of Michigan, Flint. After diving into the workforce as a sports reporter and later making significant contributions in public relations, King reached a pivotal moment—realizing the need for higher education to fulfill his career aspirations. Reflecting on his journey, King states, "_I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education... [enabling me] to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my tenure at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back._"  King's story illustrates the significant factors influencing his decision to pursue a graduate degree. Despite successful professional stints, the desire to impact others in higher education reignited his academic pursuits. Navigating the Transition Back to Education Transitioning back to education after a significant hiatus posed unique challenges for King. Nearly 20 years had passed since he completed his undergraduate studies. " Being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers... it was still about getting into that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow” King recollects. The essence of becoming a student again, juxtaposed with years as a professional, required King to draw upon his skills in research and storytelling to make the transition smoother. He emphasized the value of maintaining a student mentality, essential for adapting to and excelling in a rigorous academic environment. Choosing Public Relations and Kent State King’s decision to pursue a master’s degree in public relations was driven by his intrinsic passion for storytelling and his extensive experience in the field. Rather than venturing into other areas such as marketing or an MBA, King chose to deepen his expertise in public relations. "At the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller... That's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together,” King explains.  Choosing Kent State was strategic—leveraging a tuition waiver offered by his employer made financial sense, enabling him to focus on his education without the burden of significant student debt. Applying Graduate Education to Professional Life King’s narrative underscores how graduate education fortified his professional trajectory. The advanced degree provided him the credibility and toolkit necessary to assume higher leadership roles. It also served as a refresher that validated his past decisions and corrected any previous missteps. "In doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that I had made the right career choice... It was a neat thing to relate my personal experiences to my reading assignments and go, ‘Okay, I was doing the right thing all along,’” King remarks. His education facilitated smooth transitions into senior roles, including as the Chief Communication Officer at Slippery Rock University and later as the Director of Marketing and Communications at the University of Michigan, Flint. Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students King offers sage advice for individuals contemplating the pursuit of graduate education: Commit Fully:** "If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with both feet and go after it."Embrace Resilience:** "Expect to stumble and make mistakes, but remember that these are learning opportunities."Prioritize Wisely: "It’s essential to set aside time for study, even if it means sacrificing certain social engagements for long-term gains." Robb King’s journey exemplifies the power of continuous learning and its capacity to transform one's career and personal growth. By fully embracing the student mentality and leveraging educational opportunities, King charted a path of professional excellence and meaningful impact. For those contemplating a similar journey, King's experience offers a beacon of insight and inspiration, affirming that the path to higher education, though challenging, is unequivocally rewarding. If you’re considering advancing your education, the University of Michigan Flint offers diverse graduate programs catered to both in-person and online learners. For more information, visit UM-Flint Graduate Programs. Embark on your own journey to educational and professional excellence today. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to talk with you about this journey that you're on. I say that every week, but it's so true. It is a journey. And some of you may be just thinking about you may be just thinking, starting to think about this idea of going and continuing your education. You might have been in the workforce for some time and now saying, You know what? I think I need to do something to be able to push me in a little bit different direction, to get some different experiences. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: You might be saying to yourself, you know what? If I do this, I'm going to be able to get that job that I always wanted. I'm going to be able to meet that goal that I've set for myself. You might be in graduate school right now or looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter where you are, this podcast was set up to help you find success in that journey. And that's why every week I love being able to talk with you, to work with you, to introduce you to different people that have had different experiences that have gone on to get that graduate degree and can give you some of their experiences, positive, negative, in between, that can help you to be able to add some tools to your toolbox that you can take with you as you go on this journey yourself. That's why every week we do bring you different guests, different people that can share some of those things with you. And today we've got another great guest with us. Rob King is with us. And Rob did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went out into the workforce, worked for a number of years, and then continued on and got that graduate degree at Kent State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And we're going to be talking about that journey that he went on and learning from his experience. Rob, thanks so much for being here today. Robb King [00:02:09]: Thanks for having me, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. And what I love doing 1st and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you got that bachelor's degree in communications. And from there you went off and got some experience. You jumped out into the workforce. And after a period of time, something went through your head. There was some inkling that made you just say to yourself, you know what? I think it's time. It's time to continue my education and move into a graduate degree. Talk to me about that thought process and what made you decide that you wanted to get a graduate degree?  Robb King [00:02:47]: For a long time after I got my bachelor's degree many years ago, 1990. Like you said, I did jump right into the workforce. Right out of college, I worked as a sports reporter at The Flint Journal, which continued my endeavors into writing, which I had done on campus as a reporter for the Michigan Times, spent all 4 years that I was on campus at the student paper. But it was always in the back of my head very early on that I wanted to do more with my education, and I think that was a combination of both, in addition to the paper, I had an on campus job. I liked the idea of being in higher ed. I knew that at some point, that's where I wanted to be as far as joining ultimately being in the workforce because there had been so many people on campus, whether it was the legendary, that's how I like to refer to him, Charles Apple, who was the head of the comms department during my time there and was also my advisor, whether it was him or Mary Jo Sokolsky, there were so many people that affected my life and my education in those 4 years that I was on the Flint campus that really pushed me to be the best version of myself that I was able to be at that time, that I knew that getting back into higher education is ultimately what I wanted to do because I thought, if all those people had such an effect on my life and made such a difference for me and were able to push me where I needed to go to do what I'm able to do, if I could come back regardless of whether it was working here at my alma mater or wherever at Kent State or, as you know, I spent 7 years at Slippery Rock University to be able to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my ten year at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back. So I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education. But at the same time, when you get out with your bachelor's degree, you're 22 years old and you want to make money and you want to strike out on your own, and then life starts happening and things get in the way. Robb King [00:04:46]: Over the course of time, you end up being a partner and being a father and I had a wife, I had 2 girls. Those responsibilities, work responsibilities, it just got put on the back burner. Then when eventually I did get into higher ed doing marketing and communications for one of Kent State's regional campuses, been there about a year, and that's really when I thought about, okay, I'm in a place now where my kids were older, things were kind of settled, had a good routine, and quite frankly, the opportunity to be able to take advantage of educational credits with tuition assistance from my employer made it even more palatable and kind of a no brainer not to do it. So I did decide to pursue my master's degree in public relations, which had been my field for the bulk of my professional career, so it just made sense to continue down that path. And the funny thing is is then when I got to the end of that road, which was 2 years of constant study, I get to the end of the road and the head of the program comes back to me the week after we conclude. He's like, okay. When did you start your doctorate? And I was like, nope. I'm good. Robb King [00:05:53]: I'm good. Have my master's degree. I'm fine. We'll go from there and see where that takes me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:58]: It is definitely a continuum, and you are going to, as you go through that process, I mean, you have to figure out for yourself which direction you wanna go. You kind of talked about the fact that you were out before you came back, there is going to be a transition, a transition that you're going to go through to be able to be able to be successful in the program. So talk to me about what you had to do to be able to make that transition back into education and what you had to do to be able to not only set yourself up for success, but what you had to do to be able to maintain that success throughout graduate school? Robb King [00:06:46]: From graduating with my bachelor's until I started the master's program was roughly like a 20 year gap. So being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers. It was easy to get back into that rhythm to a degree because working in public relations, you're usually researching for stories and then you're writing your texts. So, doing that part was easy, but it was still about getting into that that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow. It's really about becoming a student again. You learn different things as a professional day to day to help you do your jobs better, but I think learning as a student versus learning as a professional are 2 entirely different things and 2 different mindsets related, but different. So, it was about even though everything was online, I'll use the term getting back into that classroom mentality. And you know what? 20 years later, it was the same thing. Robb King [00:08:00]: I would look at the syllabus and go, how many chapters do I have to read this week? So, a lot of that stuff still hangs around. But I think with anything, it's keeping your eye on the prize and what you wanna do. I think that my my undergrad degree had taken me as far as it could. I mean, I had a wealth and decades of experience behind me, which helped me advance even without an advanced degree, but I knew that if I wanted to lead a group of people in higher ed and take the reins of a marketing and communications department and be the one to foster the change and lead the charge, so to speak, that I was going to need that because job descriptions were constantly having bachelor's degree required, but master's preferred. Well, to me, master's preferred means if you don't have it, we're probably not going to consider you as strongly as we do somebody that does. So I knew that to take that next step and to be an executive director or a chief officer in the communications and marketing department, I was going to take need to take that next step for myself dedication and wherewithal to make that commitment to not only myself and my education but to whatever institution that I was working for. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:21]: Now I know I said that you were working in public relations. Your master's is in public relations. Now you could have studied in a lot of different areas and there's a lot of different sub components to a communication degree. You chose to continue on in public relations type of work. Talk to me about that decision and the thought process behind whether you would stay like you did in selecting public relations as the field of study versus probably could have done something else. You could have got an MBA. You could have got another kind of type of communication degree. So talk to me about the choice of a public relations degree and what was going through your head and why you chose to stay in that area, and then why you chose Kent State as the ultimate place to stay versus other institutions where you could have gotten other types of programs or other opportunities? Robb King [00:10:14]: Well, for me, before getting into higher ed, public relations was always at the center of it. When I was at Flint, like I said earlier, I spent 4 years on staff at the Michigan Times going from a student writer to an associate editor to the editor of the paper. But while I was doing that, I was also working in the student, what back then was the student entertainment office working on events. I did a internship with the then Flint Spirits, which was the old International Hockey League team in town, and did 2 semesters for credit and ended up spending another 3 seasons with the team as an unpaid intern working in PR and marketing. And at the minor league level, your staffs are always small, so you do wear a lot of hats. So it's not just writing press releases. It's writing press releases. It's making arrangements for public appearances. Robb King [00:11:02]: It's putting together ad copy for the radio and for TV. So you get all that exposure. So there are, as you noted, different areas where you could when you wanna continue your education that you can choose to focus on. I chose to stay, and I could have done MBA or I could have done a marketing concentration. Concentration. But the reason that I chose to stay in in public relations is because at the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller. And that goes back to being a writer for my high high and that goes back to being a writer for my high school paper in Swartz Creek as I've always enjoyed sharing other people's stories with the masses. And even, I spent 16 seasons in minor league sports, But even when you're in that field, you're sharing stories through press releases and through magazine stories or connecting your beat writer with your with your captain who had a 7 point night in a hockey game and has hit a milestone. There's always that storyteller center was always there for me. So that's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together. So that's that's really why I chose to concentrate on that versus veering off into marketing or an MBA or something of that nature, which isn't to say anything against those concentrations. But that's all areas that I worked in along the way and felt good enough about those, which isn't say I didn't feel good enough about my PR stuff. I did. Robb King [00:12:35]: That was just the area that I gravitated towards because I am a storyteller. And the reason I chose Kent, if I'm just being honest, it's because they were my employer and I had a tuition waiver. So, that made it a lot more palatable financially to be able to continue because the only thing that I had to pay for every semester was I had like a $7.49 legal fee charge that every grad student had to pay. So you know what? For $7.49 a semester, I'll earn that master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Definitely. There's no issue there. So I guess one of the things that I guess that I am interested in is that you took that degree and you did take advantage of being able to move on, move up, and move out from Kent State after finishing that degree a little bit after that. And as you said, you moved to slippery rock to be their chief communication officer, ultimately, and then now being the director of marketing and communications at the University of Michigan Flint. As you think back to the education that you got in your bachelor's degree, your master's degree, talk to me about how you feel that that graduate education prepared you for those next steps and beyond that you're doing now, and how do you see yourself using that education on a daily basis? Robb King [00:14:02]: In pursuing the master's degree, it really, for me, having all those years in the field prior, reading the texts and doing the assignments was kinda like a great refresher course for me during that time because as I was reading case studies or white papers, I'm reading this material, and I'm relating it to things that have happened to me during the 20 years prior and instances or situations that I've encountered, and and I'm drawing parallels, and it's reinforcing in me decisions that I made that were correct or decisions that I made that were not the best choice at the time, but was able to use them as learning opportunities. So I felt that in doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that, one, that I had made the right career choice and that it also said to me, okay, here are these situations which are very similar to things that I had encountered and that most of the time in reading texts from experts in the field that I had made the right decisions. And it was kind of it was a neat thing to be able to relate my own personal experiences to what I was reading in my assignments and going, okay, wow, you know what? I was doing the right thing all along and I made the right choices for me and my crew and my employer. And in those instances that I that I didn't, I was being provided with the tools to allow me to have a different thought process when I was presented with those situations moving forward. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:41]: Now this show is all about success and helping individuals no matter what kind of degree that they're inter interested in find success in that graduate school journey. As you think back to your own graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to another student, another person thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner? Robb King [00:16:03]: I think ultimately you have to be once once you've made that decision that that's something that you're going to pursue, I think it's like anything else that you're trying for the first time. You may waffle. You may the pendulum's gonna swing back and forth on, do I really wanna do this? Do I have the time to commit to it? How is it going to affect my family life? What do I do when I'm in a time crunch? How do I prioritize? But it's like anything else. If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with with both feet and go after it. It's like anything else. It's like pursuing a promotion or a salary increase or anything else in life that you encounter. If you want it, go for it. You're gonna stumble along the way. Robb King [00:16:46]: Everybody does. It's okay to make mistakes. And I know that those are all cliches and everybody says them, but they're cliches because they're accurate. You are gonna stumble. You are gonna make mistakes. You may upset someone because you can't do x or you can't go to y because you have to set aside that time for yourself to study. But you have to remember that at the end of the day, yeah, going out for dinner would be fun, but improving yourself, improving your mindset, improving your career is going to do so much more, not only for yourself but for those around you. And if you're in a field where it can also help make a difference for others and for your community, what's a better choice in that moment? And at the end of the day, to earn a master's degree in most in most cases, it's 2 years out of your life, which really is not that big of a commitment overall in the big scheme of things. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Rob, thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for being willing to help others in the journey that they're on, and I truly wish you all the best. Robb King [00:17:52]: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. It was good to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:54]: The University of Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school is a significant decision that involves careful planning, research, and a readiness to meet new challenges. On the latest episode of the “Dads with Daughters” podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis hosts Brenna Dressler, a graduate of Saginaw Valley State University and the University of Michigan Flint, who shares her experiences and wisdom on navigating this important transition. Let's dive into the valuable insights and strategies discussed during the episode. Understanding the Decision to Pursue Graduate School: Initial Interests and Realizations Brenna initially planned to enter the field of occupational therapy but found that the rigorous anatomy and physiology courses were not her forte. This realization prompted her to explore other avenues, and she discovered public health through her mentor professor, Dr. Megan Ruth. Intrigued by the possibilities of helping people in a broader context, Brenna shifted her focus to public health, laying the groundwork for her future educational and career choices. "I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity... I went back home and I did some research on it... It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me." - Brenna Dressler Researching and Choosing the Right Graduate Program: Criteria and Decision-Making Process Selecting the right graduate program can be daunting, but Brenna’s systematic approach made it manageable. She emphasized the importance of creating an organized list of criteria that mattered most, such as cost, location, and scholarship opportunities. Brenna's research led her to attend an informational session at the University of Michigan Flint, where she felt a positive connection with the faculty and the campus environment. "I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me... I was looking for scholarship opportunities... I just really liked the environment." - Brenna Dressler Specialization and Fit Brenna also underscored the importance of aligning the program with her specific interests within public health. For example, she considered a specialized program in maternal and child health before ultimately deciding on Michigan Flint's more general public health program accommodating her broader interests. "It helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized." - Brenna Dressler Setting Up for Success in Graduate School: Initial Steps and Organization Once deciding on the University of Michigan Flint, Brenna's next step was to meet with her advisor, Dr. Solly, to map out her course of study for the next few years. This early planning and staying organized with schedules and supplies set a solid foundation for her academic journey.  "My first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like... Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success." - Brenna Dressler Balancing Involvement and Academics Brenna's experience highlighted the importance of balancing academic responsibilities with extracurricular involvement. She actively participated in student organizations, study abroad programs, and built a strong support network, all while maintaining discipline in her studies. "I went to Africa. So I got involved in a lot... It helps to... have a support system in place to lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day." - Brenna Dressler Applying Graduate Skills in the Professional World: Career Progression and Application of Skills Brenna's graduate education significantly influenced her career trajectory. Her involvement in research during both undergraduate and graduate studies equipped her with the skills necessary for her role as a clinical research technician and later as a project specialist. The connections she made and maintained with her professors also played a significant role in her career advancement. "As far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections... They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs... that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection." - Brenna Dressler Tips for Prospective Graduate Students: Key Recommendations Brenna offers several practical tips for prospective graduate students: Reach Out to Faculty: Contacting staff or faculty members at potential schools can provide valuable insights into the programs' alignment with your career goals.Engage with Current or Past Students: Understanding the student perspective can offer a clearer picture of the program experience.Research Thoroughly: Make sure the program fits your professional aspirations and personal circumstances through comprehensive research. "I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at... reach out to students that have already gone through the program." - Brenna Dressler Graduate school is a rewarding but challenging journey. By thoroughly researching programs, planning meticulously, staying disciplined, and leveraging connections, students can set themselves up for success. Brenna Dressler's story is a testament to how deliberate and informed decisions can lead to fulfilling educational and professional outcomes.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on a journey with you, being on a journey that is working side by side to walk alongside you as you're looking at graduate school. And I say a journey because it is a journey. And every person that considers graduate school is on a journey that is individual as themselves. And you have to go through it to be able to not only prepare yourself for making that transition into grad school, but then you have to go through it to be able to get through graduate school as well because sometimes there are things that you have to overcome as you go through those experiences as well. But along the way, you can learn from so many people that have gone before you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: And that's what this show is all about. The show is here to help you, to give you some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to learn from others that have done graduate school before you, and to open your eyes to some of the things that you might need to be thinking about or want to be thinking about as you think about graduate school as well. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests that have done graduate school in the past, that have gone to graduate school in the past, and can share that journey with you as well. And today we got another great guest with us today. Brenna Dressler is with us today. And Brenna did her undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University, but then decided after a short period of time out from Saginaw Valley to go back to graduate school and to get her master's degree in public health from the University of Michigan, Flint. So we're gonna be talking to her, learning a little bit more about her own journey, and allowing for her to share some of the things that she learned along the way to help you in your journey as well. Brenna, thanks so much for being here today. Brenna Dressler [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to chat with you about the experiences that you've had. And one of the first things that I love being able to do is to turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work back at Saginaw Valley State University a few years back. And sometime during that time that you were either going through your undergraduate work or in those early years of being out in the workforce, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education and get a degree in a little bit different area from where you were in your undergraduate work, where you got your bachelor of science with minors in gerontology and management, a kind of a health science degree and public health too. But talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Brenna Dressler [00:02:52]: Yeah. So I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity. So originally, I went to Saginaw Valley thinking I was gonna go through the occupational therapy program. I quickly realized after going through more anatomy and physiology classes, That just wasn't my forte. It just didn't really stick with me. I found it very difficult. So I went back to my advisor, doctor Megan Ruth, who is a great mentor of mine, and she told me about this idea called public health that I had never heard about. It sounded very interesting. Brenna Dressler [00:03:28]: I went back home and I did some research on it. And actually at the time, Saginaw Valley didn't have a direct bachelor's of public health degree. It was a bachelor's of health science, but I took mostly public health courses. So it's essentially a public health bachelor's degree. So yeah. I quickly realized that this sounded like something I would really enjoy. I like working with people. It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me. Brenna Dressler [00:03:58]: Along the way, like you said, I found out about a gerontology minor and a management minor just to kinda diversify myself. I still haven't really used either of those minors, but education is good no matter what though. And then, obviously, through my research, when I found out about public health, I found out that there is a graduate program as well. I quickly became very interested in that because I kind of already assumed that I was gonna be going into a graduate program of some sort because OT was a graduate program. So then from there, just started my research on different programs and different options and fell across U of M Flint's program. So that's kinda how it evolved. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So talk to me about that research process that you went through because you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, but there are many different programs that are out there. And as you said, you did your research and you identified and and looked at specific things that you were looking for. Talk to me about what you were looking for, what you kind of explored in that research, and what made you decide to ultimately attend the University of Michigan Flint? Brenna Dressler [00:05:01]: So I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me. I looked in state and out of state. I applied to a few out of state programs. I was looking for scholarship opportunities, things like that. And ultimately, I ended up coming down to U of M Flint for one of their informational sessions and met a few of the professors and things like that and just really liked the environment when I did come down for that info session. I don't know. It just felt comfortable there. Brenna Dressler [00:05:33]: It felt kind of similar to Saginaw Valley. Saginaw Valley is a smaller university. Growing up, I always went to smaller schools with less students in classrooms. So that was really important to me to kind of have a more individualized experience. And it just felt like U of M Flint really kind of fit fit the bill for me. It's also close to home and my mom has some health issues so it was important for me to be around to help out when I needed to. Saved me a ton of money while still getting the U of M diploma. So that was kind of my process with that. Brenna Dressler [00:06:05]: As far as, like, finding out about other programs, it was pretty easy to just Google and find out. I think there was a program out in Colorado that I was looking at that was maternal and child health focused, which is where I thought I was gonna end up. I really like that area of public health. So it helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: So as you made that final decision, you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint, you made that transition into graduate school. It is very clear that the way you're educated in undergrad is different than the way you're being educated in grad school. The expectations are different as well. So talk to me about what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned in, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school? Brenna Dressler [00:06:56]: So one of the first things that I did was met with my advisor, who's doctor Solly, who I love dearly. She's done so much for me, and I credit her for a lot of my success in the program and in my career. So my first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like. I think right off the bat, she could tell that I was a very motivated and great student, which I hope she would say that today if you talk to her. But so that was my first step. Next was just, like I said, kind of planning out the next couple of years. I'm a very organized person, so knowing what's to come was really important for me. Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success. Brenna Dressler [00:07:43]: I think discipline is really important because sometimes when you're going to grad school and also working and trying to have a life outside of it, it can be kind of hard. So making sure that you stay disciplined and produce good work is really important. Also, just finding kind of either a group or a partner that can lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day, you know, or have a bad exam in the program, things like that. I think that's really important to latch on to a couple people that you really enjoy and, because you're gonna be with those people through the entire program. That really helped me as well. Also getting involved in student groups. I was president of a student organization. I got involved in study abroad. Brenna Dressler [00:08:27]: I went to Africa. So I got involved in in a lot. And like I said, the discipline was really important because there's times that I wanted to do something more fun, but I had an epidemiology exam the next day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:38]: You definitely have to balance those things, and you have to look at all of the opportunities that avail themselves to you. But then take advantage of what you can take advantage of because sometimes students may think about what how involved they were as undergraduate students. And then as they get into grad school, they have to temper that a little bit, or they have to add some things in because it's an involvement turns involvement means something a little bit different in grad school. And a lot of times, what I see with students is that involvement revolves a lot around the profession itself. And in thus, versus in undergrad, it might not be as profession related, but there's lots of other opportunities to get involved. So I completely agree with you. Get involved. Find ways to get involved. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:23]: You know, and and even if you're doing an online program, find ways to get involved and and be able to make those connections, network, etcetera. Now that you've completed your degree, you are now out in the workforce. You have been out in the workforce for a bit of time. You are a clinical research technician with Michigan Medicine, also an adjunct faculty member at Saginaw Valley State University. So talk to me about, now that you've been out in your career for a bit and you're utilizing your degree on a regular basis, Talk to me about how that graduate degree really prepared you for these next steps that you took in your professional career. Brenna Dressler [00:10:02]: Sure. So actually, I have a different role right now. So the clinical research technician, I think that was about a year ago that I had that one. So the current role that I have is a project specialist with a quality improvement program at University of Michigan. But the research role was really pivotal in getting this position for me. I did research in both undergrad and grad school with professors, and I think that really gave me some great experience, hands on experience with research and presenting papers and posters and things at national conferences and just understanding the the how to perform research and write papers and things like that. I think that really was helpful in me getting the clinical research technician position, which was working on the COVID vaccine trials. So I did that position for about 2 years working from home. Brenna Dressler [00:10:52]: And then while in that position, I was able to make the connection with the program director of my current role. And she knew that I had my master's of public health and knew that I was a great worker and smart and could pick things up pretty quickly. So she kind of offered the job to me knowing that this program was gonna start in a year or so. But as far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections. I think doctor Sully helped me a lot with applying for jobs and looking for jobs. I always stress to my students, which I teach at Saginaw Valley and at Ferris now, I always stress to them the importance of mentorship and making that connection with a professor that you really enjoy working with or things like that. And that's really got me really far is keeping those connections with my professors. They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs, for this and that, and that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection. Brenna Dressler [00:11:50]: Another thing was the organization of just keeping my schedule and being disciplined and things like that because I do currently work from home still. And so it's very easy to get distracted by laundry and dishes and things at home. So making sure I have that discipline to get my job done is really important. Obviously, the coursework has really played a a strong role in what I do. I currently manage a lot of the health education aspects of the program that I work for, and that's what my master's of public health was in, was in health education. So I use a lot of the health communications models and things like that. Yeah. I can't say more about how the coursework has helped me in my current role. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:31]: So as you think back to your graduate education and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going into a public health degree or some other degree that's out there. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them to find success sooner? Brenna Dressler [00:12:50]: I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at. Just send them a quick email and just introduce yourself and say, this is what I'm interested in. This is where I see myself in 5 years. Do you think this program would really fit my needs and my interests for my career? I think that's a great start. It also gives you that connection off the bat if you do decide to go to that university. Another thing would be reaching out to students that have already gone through the program. So you can find them on LinkedIn or maybe they have a blog post on the university's website that you can find an email address. I think really talking to the students gives you a great idea of what the program is like, from their perspective. Brenna Dressler [00:13:31]: I think that's always a great option. Just do your research about the university, about the program, making sure that it aligns with your goals and Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: Well, Brenda, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for being here, and for and for doing what you're doing now to be able to help others in our community through that public health degree. And I truly wish you all the best. Brenna Dressler [00:13:54]: Thank you. It was great to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Welcome to "Victors in Grad School," a podcast where we engage in enlightening conversations with students, alumni, and experts to uncover what it takes to excel in graduate school. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the podcast is a valuable resource for anyone contemplating, currently enrolled in, or nearing the completion of their graduate studies. In a recent episode, Dr. Lewis had the pleasure of hosting Kayla Bueby, a Clinical Assistant Professor and Practicum Education Coordinator at the University of Michigan Flint. Kayla shared her transformative journey through various stages of her academic career, from her Bachelor's in Social Work (BSW) to her Master's in Social Work (MSW), and even a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration. Understanding the Importance of Graduate Education Graduate education is often a journey filled with numerous transitions and challenges. These changes could range from shifts in self-perception to evolving learning methodologies. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that graduate school is a unique journey that requires comprehensive preparation to ensure success. The goal of the podcast is to aid students at various stages of their graduate education by bringing in guests who have successfully navigated this journey and are willing to share their wisdom. The Initial Transition: From BSW to MSW Kayla Bueby began her academic climb at Saginaw Valley State University, where she earned her BSW. She then transitioned to Michigan State University for her MSW. When asked about the motives behind her decision to pursue an MSW, Kayla mentioned the defining role her undergraduate faculty played. They provided her with clarity about the importance of advanced degrees in the field of social work, especially for those aiming to become mental health therapists. She knew that a master's degree was a crucial stepping stone to achieving her career goals, and this understanding came early in her bachelor's program, largely due to the guidance she received from her mentors. Navigating Graduate School Choices Choosing a graduate school is no small feat, and Kayla conducted rigorous research to identify the best MSW programs available. She acknowledged the pivotal role that professional organizations like the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) played in her search process. By joining NASW as a student member, she gained access to a wealth of resources, continuing education opportunities, and crucial insights into the hot topics and future directions in the field of social work. This experience was instrumental in her decision to attend Michigan State University, which offered a specialized trauma-informed care certificate as part of their MSW program. The Unexpected Yet Beneficial Addition of Business Knowledge In a fascinating twist, Kayla didn't stop at her MSW. She ventured into the realm of business by earning a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration and Management. Initially intrigued by the possibility of blending social work with business, she aimed for an MBA but settled on the certificate after realizing that her strengths did not align perfectly with certain business courses like accounting. Despite these challenges, the experience was invaluable, and the knowledge she gained has continued to benefit her career. Coping with the Realities of Graduate Life As someone who has worked extensively with both undergraduate and graduate students, Kayla shared valuable insights into coping with the multifaceted challenges of graduate life. Time management, she pointed out, is a universal stressor among graduate students who often juggle school, work, and personal responsibilities. She advocated for a customized approach to time management, highlighting the importance of finding what works best for an individual's unique circumstances.  Kayla also stressed the importance of leveraging available resources for mental health support. For instance, institutions like the University of Michigan Flint offer free counseling and psychological services to students, including remote options. Utilizing these resources can make a substantial difference in a student's overall well-being and academic performance. Transitioning to a Faculty Role: A Full-Circle Moment Kayla's journey came full circle as she transitioned from an administrative role to a faculty position. She is particularly excited about the launch of the new MSW program at the University of Michigan Flint. Having transitioned multiple times herself, she now aims to be the empathetic, knowledgeable guide for her students that she once sought in her mentors. She hopes to provide her students with the skills and empathy needed to navigate the complexities of real-world social work. Final Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students In wrapping up, Kayla shared some critical advice for those considering graduate education: "Start with the end in mind." It's essential to have a clear understanding of your career goals and to ensure that the graduate program you choose aligns well with those objectives. Don't hesitate to reach out to faculty, program directors, and current students to gather as much information as possible. This proactive approach can help ensure that you make informed decisions that will set you on the path to a rewarding professional life. Graduate school is a demanding but incredibly rewarding journey. By leveraging the experiences and insights of those who have successfully navigated this path, like Kayla Bueby, future students can better prepare themselves for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. For more insights and tips on navigating graduate education, tune into "Victors in Grad School" and embark on your own journey to success. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week as always, we are on a journey together. I say that every week, but it's so true that you are thinking about graduate school. You're here because you're thinking about graduate school, And you might be just at that first inkling where you think, maybe I need to continue my education. You might be in graduate school, or you might be looking at the light at the end of the tunnel where you're saying, I'm almost done. Almost ready for taking this graduate education to the next step and moving into a new career area or expanding in the current career that you're in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And as you go through this graduate school experience, you're going to be going through a lot of changes, a lot of changes in yourself, changes in the way that you learn, changes in the way that you are looking at yourself as an employee, as a student, as a individual. So it's really important that you do what you can to prepare yourself, to prepare yourself for the work that you're going to be doing throughout your graduate school journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find ways in which you can find success in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that can help you do just that. And I love being able to bring you these different people that have had these different experiences because they have gone before you. They have gone. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: They have gotten a graduate degree. They've been successful, and they're sharing that experience with you today. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Kayla Bubi is with us today, and Kayla is a clinical assistant professor for our b for the BSW and MSW programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also the practicum education coordinator for those programs as well. We're gonna be talking to her about her own experience going through graduate school herself and learning along the way. Really excited to have her here. Kayla, thanks so much for being here. Kayla Bueby [00:02:22]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I love being able to bring people in to be able to talk about their different experiences, to share those experiences and help people along the way. 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I wanna go back a few years. I wanna go back because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University where you got your BSW, your bachelor of social work. And after that, you went on to get an MSW, a master of social work at Michigan State University. So let's first talk about that first transition. And I would love to kind of go into your mind and say to yourself, Kate, what were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue on in getting going from the BSW to the MSW? Kayla Bueby [00:03:07]: Yeah. That's a great question. My my BSW experience at Saginaw Valley was wonderful. And in that program, I learned so much about the particulars of each of the degrees. So in certain professions, your degree means a lot in terms of what you're able to do. And in social work, that's very true. So I had the goal of becoming a mental health therapist and becoming a clinician, and I knew I needed to achieve a master's degree and earn a master's degree in order to do that. And I had wonderful faculty that helped me understand that path and prepare me for what was next so that I knew very early on in my bachelor's degree program that that was the direction that I was heading in. Kayla Bueby [00:03:48]: That was incredibly helpful. So in a social work degree program, the job that you want to do has a ton of bearing on what level of degree you need, and that was made so clear to me early on, and I really appreciated that. So that's how I ended up knowing that I wanted to continue on with my master's degree education very early on in my bachelor's education. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: As you learn that and you were talking to your faculty mentors or advisors or others that were saying to you, okay, you wanna do this, you've gotta get this. As you were starting to prepare for that next step, as you were going through that BSW, I'm sure you had to start doing some type of, let's say, reconnaissance, some type of research to be able to look at the myriad of different MSW programs that were out there. And there are quite a few in the state of Michigan, but there's also many others across the nation. And I'm sure you had many opportunities. You could have gone to almost any school that you had wanted to. You chose to go to Michigan State University. Talk to me about that decision making process, that research that you did for yourself. And why did you ultimately decide to attend Michigan State University? Kayla Bueby [00:05:00]: Knowing early on in my BSW program that I was interested in pursuing an MSW was a monumental help in that regard. 1 of the from a social work perspective, one of the most impactful things that I did was got connected to my professional membership organization, which in our profession is NASW or the National Association of Social Workers, specifically the Michigan chapter, and became a student member. They offered some really wonderful student member rate, and that got me connected to the practice professional community in a way that I had not been connected to before. They also offered free or reduced cost continuing education offerings and trainings that I was able to take part in as a student. And when I did that, I got to know what the hot topics in the profession were, where was our field heading, what did I need to know about in order to be prepared to not only apply to grad school, but be successful in grad school, and then ultimately be successful as a professional? And one of the things at the time, and certainly now still, that kept coming up was trauma informed care. So I became very interested in trauma informed care, and that was something that was on my mind as I was looking for graduate programs. On a personal note, I had always wanted to attend Michigan State University, so they were already very high on my list. But they also had a trauma informed care certificate program that I was able to take part in and was able to leave my graduate program with this additional certificate that has assisted me in my career ever since. Kayla Bueby [00:06:31]: So that was a huge part of that was understanding where your field currently is as a profession, what are the hot topics, what are the latest and greatest evidence based approaches that you should know about as a student, and aligning that with a program that was able to prepare me in that way throughout my master's program to walk into the profession, already a step ahead or maybe 2 steps ahead of some of the other graduates in my field. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: You just talked about the fact that you learned a lot of those pieces, the hot topics and things that were really important for someone going into the field to know by being a student member of the National Association. There's a number of national associations that are out there for a lot of different career areas. Talk to me about how did you get involved in that national association, and what would you recommend to students that are going into a graduate program to do as they look at national associations, statewide associations, things that are out there that they might be able to find involvement in as well. Kayla Bueby [00:07:34]: I became aware of NASW and, to some extent, involved in it because my faculty members spoke so highly of that professional organization. They were truly mentors to me throughout the entire bachelor's degree process. And their feedback and their experiences with the association were something that were that was very helpful for me to understand. And then they created opportunities, sometimes extracurricularly, but also sometimes within our curriculum, in order for the students to get connected to that particular particular organization. So for NASW, for instance, there's an annual legislative advocacy day that students are always welcome to attend, where we're able to go to Lansing and talk to legislators about social work specific policies that are being made or being proposed. So those were wonderful ways for me to get connected. As I mentioned, they also had a a discounted student rate, which made it more affordable for me as a student who is living on a very limited income And many professional organizations offer something similar to make that more accessible to folks who are spending lots of money already on their education, books, and everything else that they might have going on. So I would definitely encourage students to ask faculty what professional organizations are they familiar with, have they found value in, are they members of where social work is pretty cut and dry. Kayla Bueby [00:08:56]: NASW is our ultimate professional association, but some professions may have multiple. And so it's worth asking your faculty what they might recommend or what their experiences have been with those organizations if there are multiple. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:10]: Now I know that you ended up getting another degree outside of the BSW and the MSW, and that was a postgraduate business certificate in business administration and management. And a very different area of study in comparison to what you study for your bachelor's and master's. And for those of you that don't know, a graduate certificate tends to be a core group of courses that you take in a specific targeted area. It might be 9 credits. It might be 12 credits. You know, it's a specific number of courses in that targeted area. So as I mentioned, Kayla, you decided to get a certificate in business administration and management. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to focus and get a different type of experience in this way? Kayla Bueby [00:09:59]: Yeah. I think talking about the trauma informed care and trauma informed perspectives that I was interested in early on I also knew that early on I was very interested in management, administration, and leadership within the social work profession as well. As a staff member at the University of Michigan Flint at the time, I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. And I decided I wanted to initially explore an MBA. And joint MSW and MBA degrees are not uncommon. They weren't back then, and they aren't uncommon now, because a lot of social workers do end up in process, and so I ended up ending that my time with that program a little bit early, but was able to complete that post master's certificate. Although not knowledge from those courses that I was able to take, and the faculty were wonderful. I will be the 1st person to say I am not the strongest when it comes to accounting, when it comes to the books, when it comes to the number side of business administration. And countless times when I had questions, faculty were a if I had something that I needed in order to be successful. Kayla Bueby [00:11:29]: So I really appreciated my time in that program, and it's continued years later to serve me very well. And I appreciate the opportunity that I was afforded to be able to access that education as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:41]: Now with your bachelor's to master's, your master's to certificate to certificate, there's always transitions when you enter into different programs. How you were taught in your MSW is gonna be different than how you were taught in your business classes, And you have to be able to maneuver and manage those transitions to be successful in graduate school itself. So what did you have to do in each of those degree settings to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that journey through those different programs? Kayla Bueby [00:12:14]: There are big differences between each of those programs. And one of the things that I wish I would have maybe done differently or been a little bit stronger in doing was understanding that there was no way that I could know before I started those programs exactly what the differences would have been. And I held myself to the standard, this very standard of having to know what it was gonna be like before I even experienced it. That caused me a lot of stress. It caused a lot of anxiety, and it caused a lot of confusion for me. Whereas if I would have taken the learner approach and said, you know what? I can't possibly know what this is gonna be like, and that's okay. I'm not supposed to know. I'm supposed to learn what this is going to be. Kayla Bueby [00:12:56]: I think that would have left me open to learning more about what the experience really would be like instead of what I thought it might be like. And in all of those circumstances, as you mentioned, it was a very different experience. The thing that I did to sustain was ask questions because I realized that especially when you continue on to a graduate level education, professors are incredibly invested in your success, or at least that was my experience, especially at U of M Flint. And I they wanted me to ask questions. They were interested in the questions that I had. There was no silly question to them, especially as somebody coming from a different discipline into the business side of things in particular. I had many questions. How what is the culture of this type of profession? How are things typically done? What parallels might I be able to find between the 2? And they were very interested in discussing that. Kayla Bueby [00:13:51]: And there are times where, especially even with an MSW degree, you don't necessarily have to have a bachelor's degree to go into that. And so there are plenty of graduate programs where you don't necessarily need to have one particular degree to go into that advanced level degree, and you might find yourself in a similar situation where you're trying to find the parallels. You're you're trying to see how those two worlds blend together, and I strongly recommend leaning on faculty members and your peers maybe who have some experience to really help you integrate your knowledge, which is valuable, into one cohesive educational experience. It's difficult. So understanding that it's going to be a process and that you're not gonna know everything early on, and that that's okay, is a big mindset shift that, as I mentioned, I wish I would have adopted a little bit earlier in my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: Now I know that you said that going into the MSW, you were interested in trauma informed care. And pretty quickly after getting that MSW, you transitioned into some working in higher education after doing some community based type of work as well. But a lot of your career has really been focused in on working in higher education and working with students. So you have an interesting perspective in that regard of being able to work with students in many different aspects, graduate students, undergraduate students. I would love your perspective, especially with the fact that for a number of years, you worked in the counseling in the counseling area within a college environment and working with students in that capacity. Could you talk to me a little bit about what you learned along the way in working with, we'll say, graduate students in some of the big stressors, some of the things that they were learning with, and some of the things that you might have shared with them to help them to maneuver those situations to be able to come out stronger in the end? Kayla Bueby [00:15:43]: Yeah. I think, by and large, one of the common threads with graduate students when I was working in the counseling office, that was a stressor for all of them was, I have a life outside of this. And not just a life, but I might have children. I might have family that I'm taking care of. I might have a full time job. I have a mortgage. I have car notes to pay. There's lots of life happening outside of graduate school, especially when we have students that are coming to us who have made who have already spent time achieving a bachelor's degree or 2 or 3. Kayla Bueby [00:16:15]: And then they're also a a person first, and they're coming to us with this incredible amount of life experience. Even if they're right out of undergraduate, they still have more responsibilities, and their life is more complex than it was right out of high school. You can imagine how much more complex it gets if you're bringing somebody in who's maybe a decade, 2, or 3 removed from a bachelor's degree program. So navigating the complexities of managing time was a huge theme in those conversations. And I think while there are some general tips that can be helpful for everybody, what you have to remember is that those general tips weren't designed with you in mind specifically. You have to take those general tips, like having an organized system for managing your time, whether that's a physical planner, a Google Calendar, a Google Doc, whatever that might be for you. You have to make it work for your life. So one of the common things I talked about, especially with some of our students who had a long commute or maybe they had children and they were driving around quite a bit, was thinking about how do we make your learning more appropriate for your style. Kayla Bueby [00:17:20]: So our audiobook's something we can we can switch to for you. And so that you have the opportunity to listen while you're driving and really double or triple dipping on the time that you already are using for something else. How can we make this a better experience for you? So really, I think taking the general advice of good time management, staying organized, studying on a regular basis, but making sure that you understand that it can't copy and paste. You have to make that tailored for your individual experience to make it worthwhile. And not everything's gonna work for you. That's okay. The goal is to find what does, And that takes some trial and error in the process. The other big piece of that too was, as a result of that high level of stress, it's a breeding ground for additional mental health concerns. Kayla Bueby [00:18:05]: And so, when that happens, being able to access the resources that are available to you are incredibly, incredibly important, and knowing about what resources are available to you. So at the University of Michigan Flint, our counseling office, we refer to as CAPS, Counseling and Psychological Services, is completely free for all undergraduate and graduate students. And there are remote options available for connections. You do not have to be in the Flint community or the Genesee County area to connect in person with a licensed clinician. That is part of the package of you being a student here. It was something that at my respective institutions, both at the bachelor's and the master's level, I took advantage of as a student. It was incredibly helpful. So do not at all be afraid to ask for help. Kayla Bueby [00:18:45]: Many of the students absolutely asking for help. But if you're somebody who's considering it, please know that it is absolutely okay. It is very much supported and it can make a huge difference in your educational career to get support for your mental health and well-being throughout. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: Great tips, and I really appreciate you sharing those. Now you've also transitioned now to working on the faculty side, and you've moved from being in an administrative role to now being in a fully educational role, being working with students that are in both the BSW and MSW programs. Talk to me about this transition for you and now what you're hoping to be able to do to be able to work with additional graduate students because you have a new MSW program that's starting this fall and what you hope to bring to those students. Kayla Bueby [00:19:40]: Yeah. So, again, on my list of things I wanted to do was to teach one day. This is part of the reason I went into social work because there are so many different avenues for career exploration and different topics, different areas of work. So I'm so excited to have transitioned into this role and have such a passion for higher education. And this role, while it does involve instructional time, I'm predominantly administrative still and managing our practicum education program. So that strength really comes out in that regard and it's a great fit. I'm so excited about our MSW program coming. This is something that has been talked about for a long time. Kayla Bueby [00:20:13]: We have a lot of graduates of our program that are very excited about it and members of our Flint community. I'm so excited to try to give our students at the MSW level, and really at every every level, but certainly at the MSW level, the information that I wish I would have had at that time. An empathic listening ear, a professor that feels and I did have some of this, but to continue to give them things like a professor that feels like a real person, a professor that understands and has real world clinical experience in the social and understands when we get those really gray situations that come up or a huge ethical dilemma that might be something we need to consider. And what do you do in that situation? There's a lot of hard questions in social work, and students need to feel like they have somebody within their program as a faculty member that they can talk to about that and feel comfortable not knowing and be feeling okay, being vulnerable enough to ask questions about that. So as an educator, I'm really hoping that that can that's something that shines through. That also is something I hope that shines through in our practicum education program as we really start to prepare students in their internship experience for what real life social work really looks like. Bringing the textbook to life, really putting students in situations to say, this is what it can be like day to day. How do we handle that? How do we make sure we're operating in an ethical manner? And how do we have really difficult conversations about things that might come up? In social work, in particular, it's not just the ethical dilemmas, it's not just other concerns in that regard, but the professional use of self and social work is huge. Kayla Bueby [00:21:53]: And we all come to all of our professions with different biases, different perspectives, understandings of the world, and being able to self reflect is a huge piece of the social work process in becoming a professional. And if I can be part of that process for somebody and helping them self reflect without judgment or shame and helping them become a better professional in the future for the clients they'll serve, That ripple effect is something that I'm very much interested in being a part of, and I'm excited about preparing our students for just that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:23]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate school journey, what are some other tips that you might want to give to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Kayla Bueby [00:22:38]: With graduate education, you really have to start with the end in mind. And by that, I mean, get very serious and give some very honest thought to what you do with your career. And the reason I say that is because when you get into a graduate education space, oftentimes, the degree that you're looking for needs to align with that. I've heard stories, unfortunately, of students who have gone through multiple degree programs, including graduate degrees, and then realize, oh gosh. This did not prepare me in the way that I wanted to, or this isn't what I thought it was going to be. Do that research about what you want to do on a day to day basis long after you are out of school, And make sure that the programs that you are looking at will be able to support you in those endeavors. I would hate for anybody to be in a position where they didn't fully understand the career that they were looking to get into or didn't fully understand the requirements of achieving the career that they desperately wanted to be a part of. That is something that is so critical here. Kayla Bueby [00:23:37]: I know that that, especially in the social work world, was a very real conversation that many of the students in my cohort and my peers had because oftentimes folks felt like they just had to get an MSW because everybody else was doing that. And the reality is is that some careers in social work do not require an MSW, and you'll be spending a lot of time, money, and energy getting a degree that you don't necessarily need. Now that being said, there are a lot of careers in the social work field that do require an MSW. And so you wanna be aware of being the social work profession and others, what do you need to get you where you need to be? And how do you then find a school that they can get that can give that to you? Do not be afraid to email those professors, those program directors ahead of time and say, this is what I'm looking for. How can your program prepare me for this? And make sure that you get some very honest answers from them, so that you can make the decisions that you need to make, to make sure that you get the career and the education that you're looking for and hoping for that will hopefully prepare you for the rest of your professional life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:39]: Well, Kayla, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Good luck on the start of the new MSW at U of M Flint, and I truly wish you all the best. Kayla Bueby [00:24:50]: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

How Life's Transitions Lead to Personal Fulfillment and Professional Growth Navigating through multiple career paths is a journey many professionals undergo. Tess Muhammad's story is no different. Starting her career as a chemist, Tess found her true calling in the field of nursing, specifically in mental health. In an enlightening conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis on the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Tess details her shift from chemistry to nursing, the challenges she faced, and the lessons learned along the way. The First Transition: From Chemist to Nurse Tess's shift from chemistry to nursing wasn't a decision made lightly. Although she enjoyed her career as a chemist, her passion for mental health grew from personal experiences with depression. In her quest for better mental health, Tess explored complementary therapies like Reiki, energy work, and traditional pharmacological treatments. This exploration guided her to nurture a deeper understanding of the human mind and its intricacies. "Although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways." — Tess Muhammad This profound interest sparked a career transition in her late thirties. Despite a secure position as a chemist, Tess enrolled in an accelerated nursing program at Oakland University. It was a leap driven by the desire to contribute to the world in a more fulfilling way. From Working Nurse to Nursing Graduate Student Building a career in inpatient behavioral health, Tess gained experience across various roles over a decade. However, the desire to delve deeper propelled her to pursue higher education. Encouraged by her peers and psychiatrists she worked with, she decided to attain her Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) degree. "A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role." — Tess Muhammad Facing the crossroads of choosing a graduate program, Tess initially enrolled at Wayne State University. However, the pandemic and personal loss made her reconsider her options. The need for a more flexible, supportive environment brought her to the University of Michigan, Flint. Navigating Graduate School Transitions Enrolling in a graduate program is a formidable challenge. Tess's experience was no different. The shift from Wayne State to the University of Michigan, Flint brought its own set of hurdles. The transition highlighted the importance of balancing health, work, and studies. "A lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward." — Tess Muhammad Tess emphasizes the necessity of maintaining one's health—physical, mental, and emotional—while undertaking graduate studies. She advocates for keeping a balanced life, incorporating regular exercise and personal time amidst academic rigors. Applying Academic Learning to Professional Practice The knowledge gained in graduate school isn't just theoretical for Tess. She finds immense value in applying her educational experiences to her professional work, especially in outpatient mental health settings. Learning new medications, communication techniques, and motivational interviewing has broadened her perspectives and improved patient interactions. "Learning that in school has been very helpful in both environments…collaboration that I've been learning…is going to help me when I do practice." — Tess Muhammad Tess’s ability to translate academic learning to real-world practice showcases the integral role of higher education in enhancing professional capabilities. Advice for Prospective Graduate Students Tess offers sage advice for those contemplating graduate school. Her key takeaway is the importance of seeking balance and ensuring personal well-being alongside academic pursuits. She urges students to prioritize health and embrace activities that bring joy and relaxation. "Always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered." — Tess Muhammad She also emphasizes the importance of openness and communication with faculty and program directors, especially when facing personal challenges. Tess Muhammad’s journey from chemistry to nursing and her ongoing pursuit of higher education exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and the quest for personal fulfillment. Her story serves as an inspiration to those navigating their own career transitions and contemplating the leap into graduate education. By prioritizing personal well-being and remaining adaptable, Tess shows us the way to uncovering a fulfilling professional path that truly aligns with one's passions.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey. And I always say journey every week. I know. And I tell you that it is a journey because it is a journey that you will be on as you are considering grad school, as you're in grad school, as you're preparing to complete grad school and move on into the next phase of your own career journey. And it's important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: It's important to be able to prepare yourself and prepare yourself well, to be able to know what's coming, but also to know what you can do to prepare yourself better, but also to get ready to find success, find success in that journey. And there are things that you can do from the very beginning to be able to capture that success and be able to write your own story while you're in graduate school. And that's what this show is all about. Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through those different experiences, had different opportunities provided to them, but they found success along the way. And today we got another great guest with us. Tess Mohammed is with us today. And Tess is a current student in the BSN to DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to have her on to talk about her journey through this program and her journey into this program and beyond. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: So really excited to be able to have her here and to have her share that journey with you. Tess, thanks so much for being here today. Tess Muhammad [00:02:00]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And you know, one of the things that I love doing as we start our conversations is really to turn the clock back in time, because I know that you have a couple of bachelor's degrees, and you did your first degree in chemistry from Michigan State University. And after that degree, you went off and you were a chemist for a while. And then at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to change tracks. You wanted to move in a different direction for your career and go into nursing. So you went and you got a second bachelor's degree in nursing. So take me back and talk to me about that first transition. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:48]: And I know it's not graduate school, but I want to understand that first. Talk to me about the journey from chemist to nurse. And what made you decide that that was the route that you were gonna go? Tess Muhammad [00:03:00]: So although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways. Both pharmacological and also therapy. More complementary, therapy. So much more than talk therapy. A lot of energy type work and really got into it and fell in love with the idea of understanding the mind. Understanding how we work as human beings. Tess Muhammad [00:03:32]: Understanding what things we do to ourselves that can cause us to not be in the best mental state that we can be. And so on the outside, I'm sure at the time I looked very put together from everyone else standpoint of view. You know, I'm a chemist and I'm making my own way. But internally, there was a disconnect. We'll put it like that. I wasn't fulfilled internally. So I delve into just self help, into mental health, and every aspect of it, and every sense of wholeness from exercise, from what you put in your body, from getting assistance at times from medications, energy work, massage. Everything that you can think of plus me trust me, Reiki, I I have explored it. Tess Muhammad [00:04:15]: So that became the group that I hung out with outside of work was people that are into that. And so I knew going into nursing that I wanted to go into nursing, and I specifically wanted to go into behavioral health before I changed to nursing. Now at the time, I was, what people would probably say now, and it's not really late in age, but I was in my late thirties, early forties making this transition. And it was kind of difficult to be like, oh, do I really want to go back to school? I have a decent career now. But I came to the conclusion that I would be better service to the universe by becoming a nurse. So that's really what led me. It was, like, personal just journey for myself to be, like, I want to present and do what I love and what I have interest in, passion for. And so there it was. Tess Muhammad [00:04:55]: I saw the accelerated program at Oakland University and was like, you know what? I think this will work. I don't live that far from there, and I went forward. And the next thing, you know, I was here I am as a nurse. And then been working in inpatient behavioral health, acute in various forms and positions for the last 10 years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:13]: So over the last 10 years, you've gone through this career and you've built a career for yourself. And at some point during those 10 years, you had this spark. You had some inkling that you wanted to go further. You wanted to delve a little bit deeper. You wanted to continue your education. What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Tess Muhammad [00:05:34]: A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role. You're good at what you do on here on the floor, but we think that you're capable of it. So it just plugs Your years of working with my peers and the psychiatrist that I work with. And I started thinking about it, and I was like, okay. Maybe this is the full circle. Now I've learned being on the floor firsthand, acute. Tess Muhammad [00:06:03]: Now getting older as well and being on the floor, it's not a good idea. Just put it like that. So I started entertaining it, and I also had peers that were also going to school at the time or in the process of about to graduate. And they were like, it's worth it. So I just went for it. Yeah. I was just like, okay. It's time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: And you did your first two degrees at 2 different institutions. And you ultimately decided that you wanted to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your BSN, the DNP program. There's a lot of DNP programs that are out there. What made you decide to attend the University of Michigan, Flint? What was going through your head as you were making that decision for yourself? Tess Muhammad [00:06:49]: So I don't know if you know this part. I actually started off at Wayne State because a lot of my peers went I have other peers that went different places, but a few went to Wayne State. And I was like, okay. It's convenient. I'm not that far from there. And, so I started there. And, as we know, it's a brick and mortar. And at the time when I started, it was during the pandemic. Tess Muhammad [00:07:11]: So we actually didn't have to come to class. But then, we had to come to class. Okay. So, that's not one of the only reasons that I left Wayne State. That was just part of the reason I realized the driving down, the sitting in class, it just I was working full time at the time. It just wasn't working out. And then I had some loss of mother, and emotionally I was gone. So, it was really more that that made me leave Wayne State was just like I wasn't mentally there. Tess Muhammad [00:07:41]: And I've always promised myself I would put my mental health first over anything. You know, be the example. So I ended up leaving Wayne State. And then once I knew I was gonna go back. I wasn't sure when and then I started kind of exploring different programs and stumbled upon U of M's program and how they had it set up with you being able to go for your DNP, but also get your masters. And then it was online for the most part, asynchronous, some synchronous. And even I felt like I could go to the campus if I needed to go 3 or 4 times, it was still better than having to come, having to drive down, having to sit in a class. It was just you could do things a little bit on your own time. Tess Muhammad [00:08:20]: And I felt like for my life, that was gonna work better. So I also knew a few people who went to undergrad at Flint, and they thought they loved the program. They're like, I'm telling you this, so you're gonna appreciate it so much more. So glad to you and Flint got in, and I I love it. Everything they said was, like, everything about it, I love. I feel like I'm supported. People respond to me quickly. I feel like I know what's going on. Tess Muhammad [00:08:43]: I feel like it's organized. I know what's expected of me. I know what my program's gonna look like. I know when I'm gonna graduate. You know what I mean? Like, it everything's straightforward. So that's I'm glad I made that decision. I'm glad I'm okay with there being a hiccup because it led me here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: As you said, you started at Wayne State, then you made another transition. You transferred and and moved over to a brand new program at a brand new institution, different type of public learning and and different type of teaching styles because it's different faculty and a different focus. So talk to me a little bit about transitions. And as you there's a transition when you go from undergrad to grad, but you not only went from undergrad to grad at Wayne State, but then you've had a second transition of actually transitioning from one grad school to a completely different grad school. So talk to me about your transitions, and what did you have to do to set yourself up for success in both of those? The one from undergrad to grad, but then also the transfer in what you had to do to be successful in that. And what have you had to do now at the University of Michigan, Flint, to maintain your success throughout your time in this program? Tess Muhammad [00:09:59]: Well, we'll start off with Wayne State. I think Wayne State primed me for you of influence in that I would probably say a lot of us are overachievers. And so when I went to Wayne State knowing nothing about graduate school, I kinda came in with expectations that at the time necessarily weren't realistic with me working full time and going to school and grad school. That 1st semester at Wayne State was horrible for me. The balancing, the just everything about it, balancing family, balancing schoolwork, just life in general was a struggle because I had to adjust to myself. And I call it not lowering expectations. I call it changing expectations because I'm I'm not I don't lower anything. I have to change what I expect for myself. Tess Muhammad [00:10:48]: And from Wayne State, that's what I did. I changed expectations. Meaning, what I what I needed to put as priority or what I thought I needed to put as priority needed to change. So my priority wasn't always necessarily getting the best grade on an assignment. My priority was making sure I stayed healthy, both physically and mentally. And then from there, doing the things that will help me stay healthy, then doing what I can do to make sure that I'm being successful in the class. And successful in the class may not always mean equate to an a plus, an a minus. It may be a b plus. Tess Muhammad [00:11:25]: So because what's the old saying, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. Like, your body is gonna decide to, hey. I'm gonna take a break. Whether you want me to know to or not, you know, I'm gonna take a break. So Wayne State got me at that place. So then when I'm trans by by the time I got to transfer, I came into U of M Flint with a whole different mindset of how I was going to manage U of M Flint, having been at Wayne State, and going through that whole process. So I definitely will say that I came into UHPlint in a much better place, much better able to prioritize work, life, family from that experience. And since then, have been doing that on specifics. Tess Muhammad [00:12:04]: You know? Like, again, my priority is my health first. So incorporating exercise. Making sure I'm doing something for myself in the morning before I do anything else. Which, as we know, exercise, everything about that helps you. You know, it helps me focus during the day. It helps me stay awake. It helps me, deal with things better, whether it's school work or group projects or It just, it does. So for me, a lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward. Tess Muhammad [00:12:41]: That's been my approach. And so far, I really it hasn't in terms of when I say grades aren't my first priority anymore. I still do okay. So it's working. I can still put myself first and my health first and still do well in school. And I think sometimes we think that it's a trade, but it's more of a balance. It's not a trade. You don't have to trade one for the other. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Well, it's good to know that you do don't have to trade one thing for another, because I think that a lot of people going into grad school probably have that mindset that they think that they do have to give up something. And that sometimes can be a limiting factor of making the decision to jump, making the decision to go to graduate school, and allowing you to get that barrier outside of your head and being able to say no. You can still do the things that are important to you, and it still have those relationships to be able to do it. But it's a balancing piece of being able to understand where you have to put those priorities. Tess Muhammad [00:13:44]: And it's not easy. I mean, it's never it's not always easy. I'm saying these are the things I do. They're honestly, just right now with my unit closing, Suddenly, I don't know what's gonna happen. You know? Am I am I gonna get a paycheck in the next 2 weeks? Am I gonna already have another position? So all those things, but you just kinda have to surrender to the situation. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: There's definitely stressors that happen throughout graduate school, whether it be the things like you just said. Your unit is shutting down, and you're still having to make sure that you make it through grad school at the same time. Tess Muhammad [00:14:16]: Exactly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: But others, I mean, there's going to be times where life happens. You have a a loved one that passes away. You get pregnant. You you you know, life happens while you're still going through grad school. And the one thing that I would say to any student is that when life happens, you need to reach out to your faculty, you need to reach out to your program, you need to talk to them about what is happening. Don't internalize it and try to push through, because inevitably, if you do that, it's going to impact your success during that term and beyond. And at some points, you have to make decisions of whether or not you can continue on, or if you need to step back, take a term, and then come back. But you won't know what the right answer is until you can talk to your faculty, your program, about what your options actually are. Tess Muhammad [00:15:17]: That's such a good advice because I think that a lot of students really don't look at that as an option that it's okay to step back and then come back. It's okay. But, like, most of us are just, oh, we gotta go through it straight through. It can't be anything that happens, but, no, it's okay. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]: And I will be honest. There are some programs that are very lockstep, and taking a step back or taking a break may mean that you're taking a year off, and you have to understand all of the ramifications of taking that step back before you make the decision. So that's why I always tell students, everyone should know. Let them into your business and let them know what you're dealing with. Because if they can't, if your faculty don't know, they can't support you. If your program doesn't know, they can't support you. They want to support you because they want you to be able to graduate. It's to our benefit to have great alums out in the community using their degree to be able to to make the world a better place, and every program is going to want to see their students succeed. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: So but a lot of times, when I see students not succeeding when they're struggling and trying to push through whatever is happening, some of the problems come up because they don't disclose. Tess Muhammad [00:16:41]: They didn't reach out. That's good. That's it's good. That's good to hear. As he's like, you know it, but just the reinforcement. It's great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:47]: You're in the midst of your program. You're working through the program, and you're working at the same time, and a lot of graduate students will do that. As you've gone through these classes and you're learning all these new things, How are you finding that the information that you're learning in your classes can be utilized in the work that you do every day? Tess Muhammad [00:17:09]: Well, in the work I do in terms of acute well, it's interesting because I'm learning that acute psych specifically versus outpatient psych are 2 different worlds. So, I mean, in that, it's going to help me when I do practice, I mean, from different medications that are being used, which makes sense because when I someone's coming in acute, they're cute. They may be acutely psychotic. They may be acutely psych suicidal. So the medications and things that we use and approach that we use is gonna be different from someone who's is being in a maintenance phase. So that in itself has been huge for me because I'm just being introduced to so many different and it's almost refreshing because being able to be outpatient and see people that are functioning and then doing what they need to do and and have a life versus when you're inpatient. You kinda get the other side of it where you feel like, man, are any of these people getting healthy? They they come back? Things like that. So that's one side of it. Tess Muhammad [00:18:08]: A lot of the like motivational interviewing things that I'm learning, how to speak to patients, collaboration that I've been learning, definitely helpful. Helpful both inpatient and outpatient. So, in terms of communicating with different disciplines and learning that in school, that's been very helpful in both environments. But I will say, I mean, as anyone knows is in grad school, it is a bulk of information. So you kinda have to figure out how to prioritize, how to get the meat of it out, and what that can do for you and help you in your process and in your job and in your clinicals, and then keep moving. I don't know if that makes sense. And I don't know if I said it the way that I I intended, but it is a bulk of information, and it's all great information. But because it's a bulk of information, kind of streamlining, okay, this is what I need to focus on right now, and then move on to the next thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: So you've given a lot of piece of advice today. You've talked about your own experiences, the things that you have learned and what drew you and brought you here from your first graduate program. As you think about students that are considering graduate school, no matter if it's for nursing or for any area, what are some tips that you might offer to those individuals that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner? Tess Muhammad [00:19:33]: The biggest advice I would say is always try to stay centered. And what I mean by that is centered is try to stay balanced in what you expect from yourself and from the program. Don't put all your energy into one area of your life. Try to balance it out. And always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered, whether that be you going to church, that means you going to the gym, That means that you need a massage every week or you need to hang out with family and friends, once a month or or once every week. Find something that helps you stay balanced, and that brings you joy. Tess Muhammad [00:20:23]: And make sure you do it. Don't sacrifice that or for school. Because that 1 hour or one evening that you spend with doing whatever it is you love or getting up in the morning and going for a walk every morning is, I promise, going to make everything else better and everything else, a little bit more manageable to deal with. If you find yourself completely leaving everything that you enjoyed because you have to study so much and because you have to work, at some point, it's going to be too much. You're going to be burned out. And when you get to that point, it's just your brain doesn't pick up the way it should. You're not comprehending things the way you should. There's no happiness there. Tess Muhammad [00:21:08]: And you need to always maintain some sort of peace and happiness while you're going to this program. So that's my advice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:16]: Yeah. Well, Tess, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your advice today, for sharing your journey with us, and I truly wish you all the best as you continue in your education, as you continue toward that goal of getting your MSN and then your DNP to be able to help others the way that I know that you are trying to help them. Thanks. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:07]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school is often viewed as a labyrinth that requires significant introspection and preparation. On the latest episode of the *Victors in Grad School* podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis explores this intricate path with Paula Nas, an accomplished academic and professional at the University of Michigan Flint. Paula's unique journey through both a Master's degree in Economics and a Law degree provides invaluable insights for anyone considering or currently navigating graduate education. Embracing Challenges and Making Decisions Paula's academic journey started at the University of Michigan Flint, where she completed her bachelor's degree in Economics. Initially torn between law and teaching, she discovered that Economics not only piqued her interest but also provided a solid foundation for law school. This excitement led her to pursue a PhD in Economics at Michigan State University, a decision influenced by the enticing offer of an assistantship. However, the PhD program's heavy emphasis on research over teaching compelled her to pivot back to her initial goal of law school. She ultimately attended Wayne State University, a choice driven by reputation and practical considerations like commuting. Key Takeaways: Being open to new and challenging fields can lead to unexpected passion and opportunities.Career goals might evolve, and flexibility is essential in navigating these changes.Practical considerations like location and support systems can significantly influence educational decisions. Preparation and Skill Building for Graduate School Transitioning between different graduate programs required Paula to develop effective strategies for success. The similarity between undergraduate and PhD programs made the initial shift smoother as compared to adjusting to law school, which demanded a different approach due to its larger class sizes and different educational structure. Finding a supportive group of peers was crucial for her success in both settings. The support, encouragement, and collaborative study habits formed within these groups made significant contributions to her academic achievements. Paula emphasizes the following: Patience: Adjusting to the demands of graduate school requires time.Support System: Whether through family, friends, or classmates, having a reliable network is indispensable.Practical Application: Engaging with the material beyond textbooks through community involvement and real-world applications enhances understanding and retention. Versatility of Graduate Degrees Paula's career showcases the versatility of a graduate education. Her diverse academic background in economics and law equipped her with a wide array of skills applicable in various professional roles. As a lecturer and now in her role at the Office of Economic Development, these degrees have been fundamental. Applications of Graduate Degrees: Critical Thinking: Both fields foster analytical skills and problem-solving abilities.Teaching and Public Service: The broad educational experience has been pivotal in her municipal service and public policy decisions.Economic Development: Using economic principles and legal frameworks to facilitate community and business growth. Drawing from her extensive experience, Paula offers several tips for those considering or currently in graduate school: Patience is Key: Allow time for adjustment and avoid getting disheartened by initial challenges.Build a Support Network: The journey is more manageable and enjoyable with reliable support from peers, family, and mentors.Look at the Big Picture: Focus not just on immediate academic requirements but on how the acquired skills will benefit future career aspirations.Enjoy the Journey: Despite the pressures, savor the learning experience and personal growth that comes with graduate education. Paula Nas’s journey underscores the importance of adaptability, continual learning, and the practical application of diverse skills. Her story is a beacon for current and prospective graduate students, illustrating that success is not only about the destination but also about appreciating and utilizing the experiences gained along the way. For individuals thinking about furthering their education, the University of Michigan Flint offers comprehensive programs tailored to meet both online and in-person learning preferences. For more information, prospective students can visit: UM-Flint Graduate Programs. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School podcast. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk through this journey that you're either already on or that you're looking at and trying to decide for yourself, is this the right step for me? And the conversations that we have every week are an opportunity for you to add tools to your own toolbox to help you on this journey. This podcast is all about helping you find success in the journey. And I say journey because it is a journey. It is not something that's going to happen immediately. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: Usually, you're going to take some time to mull this over, to figure this out, to try to figure out what is the right direction for myself, what is the right institution for myself. And as you go through that process, that journey, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, but you're also going to learn a lot about what you're looking for. And this podcast is here to help you as a resource along that path. Every week, I love being able to bring on different guests, different people that have had different experiences that can share those experiences with you to help you to again add tools to your toolbox. So this week we got another great guest with us today. Paula Nas is with us today, And Paula is the director of the office of University Outreach for the University of Michigan Flint. And she's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years doing a number of different things along the years. But along that journey, she has gotten a number of different degrees. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: She got her bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, then went on and got a master's degree in economics from Michigan State University and then a law degree from Wayne State University. So we're going to talk about her own journey and be able to learn from her. Paula, thanks so much for being here today. Paula Nas [00:02:12]: Thanks so much for the invitation, Chris. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to have you here today and for you to share this journey. As I said, you went on a journey yourself. You went from that bachelor's degree in economics from the University of Michigan Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey when you were getting that degree from the University of Michigan Flint, you made a decision whether it was right at the same time or a little bit after, that you wanted to continue, wanted to continue on to get the master's degree in economics. Let's first talk about that jump and what made you decide that you wanted to continue on to get that master's degree? Paula Nas [00:02:52]: That's a great question. You know, I was in the honors program at U of M Flint studying economics. Initially, though, when I entered U of M Flint as an undergraduate, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. Growing up, I always thought I'd either wanna be a lawyer or I'd wanna be a teacher. Early on, as I was kind of pursuing that path towards a law degree, somebody had mentioned to me that, you know, economics is one of the best majors that you can have to get into law school. So I said, well, I hadn't really heard much about economics. You know, growing up, it never really was a word or a class we used at the time. But I said, if that's my way to get to law school, that's what I'm going to do. Paula Nas [00:03:27]: So I enrolled in an economics class and I found it to be one of the most challenging classes I had, but also one of the most fascinating. As I continued along the degree program, I grew more and more to like economics and appreciate the different facets of the profession. So, when it came time to graduate, I said to myself, I can either go to law school or I can pursue a PhD in economics. So, I took the GRE and I took the LSAT, and I performed pretty well in both of them, to be honest with you. And I applied to law schools and graduate schools, and Michigan State offered me a deal I really couldn't pass up to enter their PhD program in economics. That's what I did. I had an assistantship that paid for the program. So again, I started in the PhD program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: So at one point you started the PhD program, but you ended up with a master's. So along the way, you made a decision that you didn't want to continue to complete the PhD and you pivoted. And you went back to that initial goal, that initial idea that you wanted to get that law degree. What made you decide to pivot, not get the PhD? And what made you decide that you wanted to move back to that initial goal, like you said, of getting that law degree? Paula Nas [00:04:42]: I love the program at Michigan State. Really, I was there because I wanted to teach phonemix. And what I quickly realized was that this was more of a research pursuit than a teaching pursuit. And the whole kind of publish or perish, you know, fear got to me. And I said to myself, I really want to teach, but this isn't really what this is about. So I think I'm gonna go back and reconsider law school, at which point I applied to law school and then I entered Wayne State Law School. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: I guess one of the questions that comes to mind is that you kind of mentioned the fact that you decided that you wanted to go to Michigan State because they offered you a deal that you couldn't refuse. And then at some point during the choice of going to law school, you did make the choice to ultimately attend Wayne State University for law school. And there's a lot of different law schools that are out there. And you said you did well on the LSAT. So there probably were a number of options for you in that regard as well. So talk to me about as you looked at law school, and you were making the decisions for where you were planning to attend for law school, what made you ultimately decide that you wanted to attend Wayne State University? Paula Nas [00:05:49]: Going back a little bit on how I ended up with my master's, completed all of the coursework for the PhD and had begun the process of taking the preliminary examinations. And then, you know, I decided to make the switch. I was engaged at the time, and then I was married. And at that time, I realized that I I needed to find a law school basically that I could commute to. And Wayne State has an excellent reputation. Their pass rate for the bar is very high. They have great faculty, wonderful programs. And, you know, that was one of the determining factors. Paula Nas [00:06:18]: And indeed, when I was in law school, 1st year of law school, we welcomed our 1st bundle of joy during the 1st week of our final exams for the 1st year of law school. And, you know, my husband and family, they were very supportive. We decided I would still finish law school. And then second bundle of joy came, and I started to realize that I probably was gonna need to pivot and that I love teaching. I started part time at U of M Flint while I was still at law school, and I really decided that was a career for me. So I I did finish law school, but I began to teach part time at U of M Flint, which I was very fortunate. It eventually led into a full time lecturer position. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: So you finished up law school. And one of the things you said earlier was someone had told you initially that economics was the best major to allow for you to go to law school? Now I worked at a law school for about 10 years, so I saw many different majors. And I always tell students there's not one right major for a student to go into law school. But talk to me about that advice that you got. And you did do that pathway of economics. How did you find that that degree prepared you, ultimately, for going through law school? Paula Nas [00:07:28]: I like to tell my students now when I teach economics that, you know, the discipline of economics really prepares you for all decisions you can make in life. So, you know, fundamental to economics is that, you know, we assume that people are rational. Before you make a decision, you compare costs and benefits. We all know that economics is a very analytical profession. And I think that's what really helped me prepare for law school and then to succeed in law school. And I still use all of those tools and all those models. And as you say, the toolbox that you mentioned, I use it in everything I do. And indeed, lawyers use it all of the time. Paula Nas [00:08:03]: So, you know, it helped me initially to get that preparation to take the LSAT and do well on the exam. And then it really kind of, at the time, set me apart from some of my peers in law school because everybody had a different preparation. But to your point, I think that people assume, and nothing against a pre law degree, but I think people assume if they're gonna go to law school, they need a pre law degree. And in my mind, that just isn't the case. As long as you have a good solid preparation and something that gives you those tools to be able to analyze different kinds of situations, whether that be economics or business or philosophy or whatever that is, I think you're well prepared for law school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:40]: I would completely agree with you. I would say to any student that you don't need to be a poli sci major. You don't need to be a pre law major. And to be honest, if you want to go to law school, it'd probably be better to have a degree in some other area in case down the road you decide you don't wanna use the law degree and you want to fall back on something else, that having something that is completely different is not a bad thing. But I would say the same thing if somebody wanted to teach. And I tell students, okay, you wanna be a history teacher. Well, if you're going to be a history teacher, you should get a certification in something completely different than history because I always tell students, how many history teachers were there in your school district? Only probably you probably could count them on one hand in regards to your middle and high school unless you're from a very big district. Same thing there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:30]: So I would tell students all the time that having a degree in some other area that challenges you, that pushes you to be able to learn good writing skills, good thinking skills, and being able to understand ethics, being able to understand some philosophical concepts, being able to communicate well, all of those factors are things that law schools are gonna be looking for, and that can help you in that as well. So completely agree with you there, but I was interested to just kind of get your perspective now that you are a number of years out from that and looking back itself. Now you made 2 different transitions into 2 different types of programs, 2 different schools that offered you 2 different types of education, because the way that they teach you in a PhD program is going to be very different than the way that they teach in a law program. And as you made those distinct transitions into those different schools, into those different types of programs, you had to find ways to set yourself up for success, both at the beginning and throughout the entire journey. Can you talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success in both of those situations? Paula Nas [00:10:40]: So I think it was easier to make the transition between undergrad degree to PhD because it's a very similar kind of program as you know. It's really good to find a group of cohorts that you can trust and work closely with. The transition to law school was a little more difficult, much bigger programs. We were separated into classes of maybe a 100 each, more classes during the week. But still you need to find a group of peers that you can study with, work together with, be able to trust, bounce ideas against in order to be able to succeed. But I don't really think I figured that out in law school until maybe the 2nd year, and once I figured out, everything was much easier. So I guess I would say to anybody who's making that transition, don't give up because eventually it's going to fall into place. But it does take a little time to get the hang of it, I would say. Paula Nas [00:11:30]: The other thing is going back to my experience at U of M Flint, excellent professors, small classes, we were really encouraged to do our absolute best. Then I really have to also, in addition to the economics department, give a shout out to the honors program. But the time and still now, a lot of our research capabilities and our discipline and writing abilities can be attributed to some of the lessons and some of the information we get in the honors program. So they were also instrumental in my college graduate school and postgraduate school success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:03]: You went on, you got involved as a lecturer. You've worked for the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And you're utilizing your degrees in different ways, both as a educator as well as in your role in outreach for the university itself. So both of these programs prepared you in different ways. But as you look back at the education that you got in that PhD program, and the law degree that you received, how do you feel that the graduate degrees helped you to prepare for the work that you're doing today? Paula Nas [00:12:37]: I think I had a very broad education, starting with the honors program and then several different fields within economics, and then moving on to law. I mean, all of those apply to everything I'm doing today. And as you think about it as a student, an undergrad, sometimes you're just trying to graduate. You're trying to get through the next exam. As you approach graduate school, school, I think really things really have to change. So in my mind, you really have to think about not real specifics. You need to be more of a generalist, I would say, and really think about what the bigger picture is. And I tried to absorb what I needed to, not just what I was learning that day. Paula Nas [00:13:12]: So I reached out to different friends, different faculty, different community and business organizations, and those connections as I was in school, working together side by side, not just reading the textbook, but applying it to real world situations. I think that's what really helped me along the way, and it continues to help me. So I've noticed since I have the position in what was the Office of University Outreach, now the Office of Economic Development. I use those skills on a daily basis. You think when you're in graduate school or an undergrad, started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way. You start to realize as you pivot and as your journey continues, often far away from what you started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way, and you really start to value them as you get farther and farther in your career and in your public life. I also served on a local city council, and the skills I learned as an economist and as somebody who went to law school, I can't imagine not having those skills as I sat down and had to make some of those public policy decisions. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now this show is all about success, and you've offered a number of things that you did to find success in that journey yourself. And as you look back to your own different journeys in graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Paula Nas [00:14:35]: I would say be patient. Don't give up. Realize, you know, it takes time to adjust to graduate school. I would say find some valuable friends that can help you along the way because you need a support system, whether that's your family or your friends or somebody in the community. You really need to have kind of those cheerleaders who will help you get through. And look at the big picture. Don't always focus on what you'll have to do to get through. Focus on how all of these skills will help you in the future. Paula Nas [00:15:01]: And really, it's hard to tell somebody this as they're going through it because we know graduate school isn't easy, but try to enjoy the journey. Just like when students start with their undergraduate degree, we tell them, oh, make sure you have fun. This is the best 4 years of your life. And a lot of people are saying, I don't believe that. So I'm not necessarily saying those will be the best years of your life, but those will be the years when you develop those skills that you will take with you in your individual life and also in your future careers. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]: Well, Paul, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing both of the journeys that you went on in your graduate education, because I'm sure that individuals that are thinking about graduate school can take so many nuggets from the pieces that you're sharing and things that you had to learn along the way. And I wish you all the best. Paula Nas [00:15:47]: Thanks so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Pursuing higher education is often seen as a straight path, but for many, it is a winding journey filled with unexpected turns. In this week's Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Shanna Haver joined us and shared her enlightening journey from social work to earning her doctorate in occupational therapy. Her experiences impart valuable lessons for anyone considering graduate school, especially those contemplating a career pivot. From Social Work to Occupational Therapy: A Non-Linear Path Dr. Shanna Haver began her educational journey studying social work at Eastern Michigan University and gained extensive experience working with Catholic Social Services and the shelter system in Ann Arbor. However, discontentment with the systemic limitations of social work led her to a transformative sailing trip, sparking her passion for occupational therapy. She realized she wanted to pursue a doctorate, drawn by the promise of deeper knowledge and broader opportunities to impact people's lives directly. "As a social worker, people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over...as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool," Dr. Haver elaborated, emphasizing the empowerment this new role provided her. Choosing the Right Program Deciding on the University of Michigan Flint's Occupational Therapy Doctorate (OTD) program was not an arbitrary choice. It was the first of its kind in Michigan and relatively close to her home in Ypsilanti. Factors such as program structure, curriculum, and faculty expertise played significant roles in her decision. "I realized that it's only six more months [for a doctorate compared to a master's]... it gives you the tools and empowerment," she noted, highlighting that the additional commitment was well worth the knowledge and authority the doctorate conferred. Thriving Amidst the Pandemic: Challenges and Adaptation Starting her program in the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Haver had to adapt to a predominantly online learning environment. She emphasized the importance of understanding one’s learning style to succeed in such challenges. Whether through creating a dedicated study space, forming study groups, or maintaining a routine, she underscored the need for flexibility and perseverance. "Learning your learning style, dedicating to your tasks, and not allowing yourself to fall into procrastination... were essential," Dr. Haver advised, shedding light on the many ways she ensured she stayed on track. Using Past Experience to Fuel Future Success Dr. Haver’s diverse work background—from bartending to social work—provided her with a unique perspective and skill set, which she leveraged throughout her academic journey and beyond. Her varied experiences allowed her to connect with people more effectively and navigate different professional scenarios with ease. "My background is so vast...volunteering with children with special needs to bartending, these experiences shaped my passion for helping people," she explained, showcasing how every job she held played a role in her development. Post-Graduate Success and Ongoing Learning After earning her OTD, Dr. Haver took on multiple roles, including home health occupational therapist and consultant. She continues to evolve, working on a patent and conducting research, demonstrating that learning and professional development are continuous processes. "The program prepared me for knowing a little about a lot...it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing," she said, reflecting on the lasting impact her education has had on her career. Tips for Future Graduate Students Drawing from her journey, Dr. Haver offers practical advice for those considering graduate school: Understand Your Learning Style: Identify if you are an in-person or visual learner and tailor your study habits accordingly.Stay Organized and Proactive: Use tools like checklists to manage assignments and track your progress.Leverage Your Network: Don’t hesitate to reach out to mentors and peers. Building a supportive network is crucial.Keep Your Long-Term Goals in Mind: Remember why you started and stay focused on your end goals, even when the journey gets tough.Embrace Lifelong Learning: Accept that graduate education is just the beginning. Keep pushing the boundaries of your knowledge and skills. Dr. Shanna Haver’s story is a testament to the power of resilience, passion, and continuous learning. For those contemplating graduate school or a career change, her experiences provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities and finding fulfillment through education. Whether you're at the beginning of your journey or well on your way, her insights remind us that growth often comes from taking bold steps outside our comfort zones.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to look at this journey that you're on. And I say journey because it is a journey. And you might be at the very beginning thinking about graduate school, thinking about, is this the right thing for me? Should I do this? I don't know how I'm going to do this. You might also be in grad school already and looking to be able to push through and get to the end. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And you might be toward the end where you see that light at the end of the tunnel, getting ready for your career and being at that point where you're making that next step in your professional journey. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to be able to prepare yourself well, to find success in that journey. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you, providing you with resources, and allowing you to learn from others that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, found success, and have some resources, have some tips, have some things that they can share with you to help you in this journey that you're on. Really excited every week also to bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have had the opportunity to go to graduate school, have come out on the end being successful. And today is no different. We have another great guest with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Doctor. Shanna Haver is with us today. And today we're gonna be talking to her about her journey. She got her doctorate degree in occupational therapy from the University of Michigan Flint. We're going to talk about that journey that she went on to be able to find the program that she wanted to go into, find the career that she wanted to go through and go into, and be able to give you some resources, give you some ideas, some thoughts, some tools for your toolbox that you can use to be able to help yourself in the future. Shanna, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:08]: Thank you, Christopher, for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: I really appreciate you being here today. And I love being able to start our episodes with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. You were studying social work. And at some point during that journey, at some point during that experience there, or even during your time at Oakland Community College studying sign language, you had an opportunity to be able to think to yourself, I wanna go further. I wanna continue my education. And you decided to go into occupational therapy. I guess, 1st and foremost, take me back and talk to me about what it was that made you first decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:51]: Yeah. Of course. So my journey is not linear. It is not typical. I graduated in 2013 with my undergrad in social work at Eastern Michigan University. And from there, I started my social work career working with Catholic Social Services, working with what they call core morbid clients that are dealing with both the mental health diagnosis as well as a substance abuse, diagnosis, and then transitioned into working for the shelter system. So working for the Delaunay Center in Ann Arbor where I was the service center coordinator. So working with people that would come in and not necessarily have a residential bed at the shelter, but still wanna do participate in that program as far as ending their homelessness. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:03:34]: And then I transitioned to working for community mental health here in Washtenaw, and I wasn't there for months. And I was like, this is not what I'm here to do. I found myself just completing a lot of paperwork and being told I was doing too much. So went back to the shelter and stayed there for the better part of 7 years. And I like to brag that the nonresidential program that I was a part of actually housed more folks than those in the residential program. So when consumers would come, I'd always tell us, like, my goal is to get you in your own bed before a bed here becomes available. So helping working on that social work empowerment. I was given the opportunity to go on an adventure with a friend who called me up and was like, hey. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:04:16]: I know you like sailing and we're taking a tall ship from Maine to Key West in October. And it's like, okay. I got some weeks I can, you know, plan out. Let's go for it. Somehow, 2 weeks turned into a month because of weather, and I was really just finding myself 100 miles offshore with nothing but horizon horizon and maybe a few freighters on the tall ship Appledore 2, where I really just kind of found myself falling in love with the water, falling in love with the waves and how nothing else mattered on shore. Even though in the back of my head, it's like, oh my gosh. I'm gonna get fired because I told my manager I was only gonna be gone for 2 weeks, and this adventure has taken the better part of a month. And so, long story short, got to Key West, came back to the shelter, and I was at Delaunas for about 2 more months and realized that this cubicle position in a county organization was just not for me because I was frustrated. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:10]: And I was frustrated with being a social worker and having all of these tools to help someone better their situation and empower their moments, but only really being as effective as, I guess the resources I had access to was really kind of my glass ceiling that I kept hitting. So realizing that when I was going for like clinical team meetings at hospitals, it's like, oh, you're a social worker. They're like, no. I'm an occupational therapist, but people don't need job coaching. Like, they already have a job. And then that's when I learned, like, what an actual occupational therapist did and how it's so much more than just the perceived notion of job coaching. So decided to pursue master's degree. And when I was doing my shadowing, I always like to ask my peers. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:52]: It's like, hey. You know, what was the 1 thing that you wish that you would have done differently in your educational career or in the beginning of your, you know, actual career after graduating. And 2 people specifically stated they wish they went all the way for their doctorate. And so that's where I discovered that University of Michigan Flint was actually 1 of the first doctorate programs in Michigan, and it actually wasn't that horribly far away from Ypsilanti, Michigan. So that's where I decided to pursue my doctorate in occupational therapy. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:18]: And that was really 1 of the other questions because there are opportunities to be able to get both a master's, an MSOT, a master's in occupational therapy, as well as a doctorate in occupational therapy. And the University of Michigan Flint was the first program in the state of Michigan, but it sounds like the 1 of the main factors in your decision was that, was looking for that OTD versus the MSOT. Were there any other factors that you thought of, that you considered as you were looking at different programs for for yourself? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:46]: Sure. I just I realized being in my thirties, I mean, I started my OT program when I was 33, and I was like, this is it. Like, we're not changing careers again. My early life crisis is going to be the only 1 that I have. And so just kind of looking at the opportunities of an MSOT and an OTD and realizing that it's only 6 more months. I mean, granted, the program is there's nothing about that program that is only it was very intense, but it gives you the tools and the empowerment to be like, okay, if you don't know it, here's the skills that you need to hit the research, hit the medical literature, the networking opportunities of doing all the different outings and engagements with the program to help empower you to be that resource. So the 1 thing that was frustrating as a social worker is that it seemed that unless you're going into therapy, your resources in the community was actually what measured your impactfulness, where as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool. So if it's not enough, it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing and always keep learning. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:07:49]: You know, even now just as a new a new OT in the career, it's like I'm finding myself in situations that weren't necessarily covered all in-depth during the program. So I'm reaching back out to my mentors. It's like, where can I find more information about, you know, this diagnosis, this condition, these interventions? And it's all at your fingertips. You know, you hit the literature, hit the research, hit your networking and your peer supports, and you are the resource. There is no glass ceiling. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: So you made the choice. You decided to change careers, move from social work into occupational therapy. You jumped into that program. That program is a full time program. So you go in with a cohort of other students, and you're working along for those 3 years as you're learning about becoming an occupational therapist, building those skills to prepare yourself for the future. As you made that transition in and you were identifying for yourself some of those first and foremost things, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success. And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the graduate program, especially after not being in school for a number of years? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:08:58]: The preparation was nothing of what I expected because I started this program in August of 2020. So we were in full blown pandemic and being a new program and everyone not knowing what to do with the pandemic, it was a lot of ebb and flow. So I met my faculty and my cohort on a Zoom call, and then I quickly realized that I do not have the attention to sit at the computer and look at a screen. I am an in person learner. I'm a hands on learner. So having to, first off, figure out what type of learner you are, what do you require from your educators, what do you require from your classmates to support you. And then also working from home as a student into making that space, making that routine. So I was lucky enough to have a home where I could be like, yep. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:09:46]: This is my desk. And when I sit down and sit at this computer, I'm going to stay here for x amount of time until I get these tasks done. And then just having that having that dedication to your tasks and not allowing yourself to just fall into that procrastination. Because if there's anything that I can tell anyone that wants to go under a doctorate program, you will get overwhelmed by the list of assignments and projects and having multiple different group projects going on at the same time. I've never had such a heavy caseload as I did in the doctorate program, but I also look back on reflecting it is that just giving myself grace because we were going through a pandemic. We're being forced to learn in a non typical way, and our only on campus learning for the 1st semester was our anatomy lab, but then our anatomy lecture was online. And so it was very interesting. So I would say learning your learning your learning style, you know, what type of learner are you? I realized that I couldn't just sit and read. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:10:44]: I needed to print out, highlight, handwrite, whether that was handwriting on my tablet or just taking the time to do that, you know, manual writing because I knew that's how I was gonna retain information. And then also just working out a core study group with my classmates because everything was online and on screens. It's like, I I just don't wanna be at screens anymore. They wanna be in person. So then getting that group together that you can actually sit and teach each other and ask questions and bounce questions off of. And I guess the last part would just be to remember that your instructors are humans too. They didn't just magically appear as instructors knowing everything. So getting to know your instructors journey? Or what was 1 thing you wish you did? So that would be where I would start. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:31]: So as you're going through this program, you already have had a career, you have a different career, a different pathway that you'd studied prior to going into occupational therapy. Not every student is going to take that leap to be able to pivot and to move in a different direction. I'd love your perspective. And as you were going through this program, how did that background in social work, how did that work experience help you to find success? And how did you draw from that past experience to, again, find success in that journey that you were on? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:06]: My background is so vast. I if you were to look at my resume before I became a social worker, it was eclectic. Eclectic. I was a jack of many trades, master of nothing. Everything from bartending to hotel front desk work to working in a quick lube shop to being working at CVS. It was it was all over the place. And so taking my varied background of knowing a little about a lot and realizing that I love engaging with people. I mean, even as a 14 year old, I volunteered with it was a 4 h project program called Bloom, where I believe I was 14, 15. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:43]: We're volunteering with children that were at the local, what they call a focus school or special ed program. And all we did was plant flowers together. So I think that's kinda where I got my passion of wanting to help people, and I've always wanted to people. It's always been kind of a personal motto of leave something better than how you found it, and that includes people also. And so realizing as a social worker that people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over. It's like once this financial pot has ran out, I'm really just sitting here kind of pointing you in directions, but not really benefiting you, so to speak, because I did not wanna go into therapy. And that seemed to be the focus of social work is that you didn't wanna focus on resources that you were basically utilizing, then you had to go into therapy. So as an occupational therapist, I mean, OTs, they deal with everything, daily activities, whether it's like completing tasks or organizing or problem solving, decision making, controlling emotions, any of those, like, life management skills and anything that helps with creating, like, those coping strategies to, like, get that independence, those are all things that can come from your brain. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:13:44]: Those are all skills and interventions that you can learn in the program or by diving into the research. And so just kind of being that support system for someone to help them better their situation and realizing that where they're at right now is not the end was super empowerful for me. So volunteering at the local, brachial plexus clinic here in Ann Arbor kinda kept me on the front lines and engaged with people even though it was during the pandemic and very isolating. It just kinda let me not lose focus of the end goal. It's like at the end goal, I'm gonna be doing this and the other thing. It may have absolutely nothing to do with this 15 page neuroanatomy paper that I'm working on right now, but just learning how you're gonna apply that to your future and not losing track of, like, that 3 year plan or that 4 year plan. It's like, where do you see yourself in 4 years And what are you learning right now to help make that future picture more clear? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:35]: Now you've gotten the degree. You've been out in the field now for a little bit of time, and you are still very involved and very active and have a lot of things going on. So now that you've completed that degree, how do you feel that the program prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:14:52]: The program prepared me for, as I said, knowing a little bit about a lot. So whether it is the conditions, whether it is the life development, whether it's, like, the anatomy, kinesiology aspect of things, the program did a really good job of giving you that intro level taste, so to speak, on all these different things. And so it's kind of up to you personally to figure out what you want to focus on and what sort of professional development plan you're going to pursue because they don't teach you everything. I mean, just last week, I'm talking to a faculty still at U of M. It's like, I just found this patient. This is their condition. This is their barriers. Point me in the right direction. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:15:34]: And that's where she connected me with another OT that actually works with this population as her main focus. So learning how to network, not being afraid to ask for help because the program does a great job of teaching you how to network, throwing you out there, and teaching you how you can kind of do that task analysis, do that environment analysis, and use all these different tools that they teach you, figure out what needs to be done, and then empowering you to pursue the solution, even if you may not be that full solution. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: Now as you look back at your graduate education, you're now, as I said, you're very busy. You've got a number of different jobs that you're doing in regards to remote work that you're doing, in grant work, you are a home health occupational therapist in your local area. You've got a lot going on. As you look back at your graduate education, and you look at the work that you're doing now, and you think about others, whether they are thinking about going to get a doctorate in occupational therapy or just going to graduate school in some other area, What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Shanna Haver [00:16:48]: I'm a huge moto person. I actually have a portion of my kitchen wall spray painted with chalkboard chalk paint, and I write mottos. I write quotes. I write inspirations so that as I'm sitting on my counter drinking my cup of coffee, it's almost like an affirmation thing. And 1 motto that really got me through is don't forget why you started. And the follow-up to that is everything you're going through is preparing you for what you asked for. There's many times I looked at that. I was like, I don't know what I asked for, but it was not to go through all of this. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:19]: Because there are gonna be moments you're gonna be super overwhelmed and super checked out, and just learning how to keep yourself moving forward. Even if it's 3 steps back and then 4 steps forward, you're still moving forward. You're still improving your current situation, and you're still pursuing your goal. So to not lose faith because there are times you'll be super overwhelmed. You're like, what does this have to do? This instructor doesn't get me. This homework assignment is really overwhelming. So just keep moving forward. Even if, as I said, like me, not linear. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:47]: I was the 2nd oldest person in my cohort. So I felt super aged out of my program because it's like, oh my gosh. You just early life crisis, and now you're here with all these younger people. And then I actually found a classmate that was older than me and then another classmate that was my same age. So getting to know your cohort, like, they're going through the exact same thing. You don't know what else they're dealing with, but they're right there learning everything brand new. Also, don't forget about the power and the feel good emotion of a checklist because I would have my little flip pen and it would be full. It would be full 2 pages worth, but just having that gratification of crossing things off your list and then hanging on to it because you'll have weeks where you're like, oh my gosh. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:29]: I can't do this. I don't know how I'm gonna handle this. But then you kinda, like, flip back through the pages. It's like, oh my gosh. This time last month, I was doing so much more, and I knocked it out because it's all crossed up. I didn't fill that semester because I'm here at this semester. So kind of keeping those empowerment tools would be a really big thing and save everything. Don't delete anything. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:48]: Keep everything because there will be a moment that you will be in another class. You're like, dang, that 1 class on that 1 lecture, but you couldn't remember exactly what that PowerPoint slide had. So whether it is printing everything into OneNote, whether it is organizing Google Drive, whatever your thing is, is keep everything so that you can control f it later and build up your resources. And also just making sure that you just keep moving forward and give yourself grace because you're doing something you've never done before. And there's a reason you started, and don't forget why you did it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:21]: Well, Shanna, I just wanna say thank you for sharing that. I completely agree with the last thing that you just said. And 1 thing to keep in mind for you as you go through graduate school is that as you're going through, there are those notes, there are resources, there are things that you're going to learn that you may end up having or wanting to refer back on. Sometimes you might be compelled to saying, okay, I'm done with that term. I don't need it anymore. But realize that many times you're going to relate back to those things in your career. And that by keeping some of those things along the way, you're not having to start from square 1. That doesn't mean you need to keep it forever, but it means that down the road that, yes, there are going to be things that you're gonna wanna do to be able to relate back to that, to refer back to that, to be able to help you in that journey that you're on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:15]: So keep that in mind as well. But, Shanna, thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for all the resources that you've shared and the experience that you've had thus far and your willingness to be able to help others along the way. And I wish you all the best. Dr. Shanna Haver [00:20:29]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity. And like I said, even if your journey is not linear, just keep it moving forward. I mean, if you would've talked to me 5 years ago, I could've never told you that I would have graduated from a doctorate program, been referred to as doctor Haver, been consulted as an environment modification, I guess, knowledge. And having started my own LLC and have a current patent pending on an autonomy doc because trying to convince the general public that accessibility is not the only thing that is not the bar to reach. Let's go past accessibility, and that's what I'm currently working with a study with Kennedy Krieger and a grant from the National Disability System and DHS. And I would have never done any of this if I hadn't actually taken that leap and step 1 step out of my comfort zone. So don't forget why you started and just turn your passions into your career, and you'll be fulfilled. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu forward slash graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Discover the keys to success in graduate education, making informed decisions, and leveraging resources effectively. Graduate school can be both a thrilling and daunting journey, filled with challenges and opportunities that require strategic planning, resilience, and a clear set of goals. In a recent episode of “Victor's in Grad School” hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Justin Grimes shared his rich experiences and valuable insights into what it takes to navigate graduate school effectively. Below are key takeaways from the episode, expanded to help you prepare for your graduate journey. The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Dr. Grimes’ educational journey started at the University of Arkansas, where he realized his passion for student affairs. Initially interested in computer science, he pivoted to student affairs after attending the NASPA conference in Washington, D.C. The experience was transformative, helping him see a future beyond a cubicle-bound career, and eventually led him to pursue advanced degrees. His decision underscores the importance of discovering your true interests and aligning them with your career goals. Key Points: Exploration: Attend conferences and networking events to discover career paths.Passion: Align your graduate studies with what energizes and interests you.Mentorship: Seek advice from mentors who can guide your academic and career decisions. Transitioning Through Different Degree Levels From undergraduate to master’s and then to a doctorate, each degree level demanded different skills, expectations, and adjustments from Dr. Grimes. His journey also highlights the importance of adaptability, a support system, and resilience. The transition also involved making a strategic choice to stay at the University of Arkansas for his Master's due to familiarity and resources before moving on to the University of Georgia for his PhD due to networking and alumni experiences. Key Points: Adaptability: Be ready to manage increased workloads and deeper academic engagements.Support System: Leverage familial, collegial, and professional networks to navigate transitions.Adaptability: Embrace and adapt to the unique demands of each educational level. Importance of Asking the Right Questions Inspired by his journey, Dr. Grimes authored a book titled “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School.” This resource addresses the myriad of questions prospective graduate students often overlook, such as funding, degree requirements, and long-term career goals. By addressing these questions early, students can make more informed decisions and avoid common pitfalls. Key Points: Informed Decisions: Assess your personal and professional goals against the realities of graduate education.Financial Planning: Understand all financing options and create a realistic budget.Resources: Utilize books and guides to navigate the application and preparation process. Overcoming Challenges and Achieving Success The road to a graduate degree is littered with academic and personal challenges. Dr. Grimes candidly shared how he had to tackle personal setbacks, like managing his father’s health issues while pursuing his PhD. His advice revolves around accepting the reality of difficulties, planning for them, and finding ways to manage them effectively. Key Points: Resilience: Cultivate a mindset that can withstand academic and personal upheavals.Planning: Be proactive in planning for both expected and unexpected challenges.Community: Engage with academic communities to find support and encouragement. Innovating Through Knowledge and Networking One notable aspect of Dr. Grimes’ journey is the way he used his degree to bridge gaps between academia and professional practice. His work involves not only understanding but also reformulating academic insights to benefit those outside traditional academic circles. Key Points: Bridging Gaps: Use your graduate education to translate complex ideas into practical applications.Networking: Build relationships within and beyond your academic community.Continuous Learning: Embrace lifelong learning and be open to new opportunities. Tips for Success in Graduate Education To conclude, Dr. Grimes shared a few essential tips for those considering or currently in graduate programs: Clarify Your Goals: Understand why you are pursuing graduate education and how it fits into your career trajectory.Budget Wisely: Financial planning cannot be overstated. Know your expenses and funding sources. Skill Assessment: Identify your strengths and skills to better position yourself for academic and professional success.Support Networks: Build and maintain strong support systems both in and out of academia.Enjoy the Journey: Amidst the stress, find moments to celebrate your progress and enjoy the learning experience. Graduate school is a deeply personal journey filled with growth, discovery, and the occasional setback. As Dr. Grimes' experiences highlight, success in graduate education is not just about academic excellence but also about making informed choices, fostering resilience, embracing change, and building strong support networks. For those taking the plunge into graduate studies, his book, “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School,” is a must-read to navigate this transformative journey effectively.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, work with you as you are either looking at the possibility of grad school, going through graduate school, getting ready to graduate from grad school. No matter where you are, everybody is on a journey as you consider this thing called grad school. And you don't have to do it alone. And that's the thing that every week I try to bring to you and I try to impardon you is that there are so many people that have gone before you, that have had similar experiences, different experiences, doesn't really matter because they've gone through grad school. They've experienced it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]: They've learned, and they've lived it. And through that, they've been successful. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences that they can share with you that'll help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Justin Grimes is with us today, and doctor Grimes is the owner and chief executive officer of Stick With It LLC. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in going through graduate school as well as a brand new book that he wrote called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. And we've talked about things to think about, things to consider, but I'm always looking for more resources, so here's another resource for you. So we're gonna talk about that too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: Justin, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:01:48]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today and to learn a little bit more from you. And first and foremost, I love turning the clock back in time, so I'm gonna go back. Quite a few years, I wanna go back to the University of Arkansas. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Arkansas. And at some point during that work on your bachelor of business administration and working on some studies in computer science, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on and get a master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head and why you made the choice that you wanted to get that graduate degree? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:02:29]: You had a unique opportunity very early on to attend several conferences and events. And one of those that I attended for those who work in higher education, particularly in student affairs, was the NASPA conference. I went to my first National Association of Student Personnel Administrators conference in Washington, D. C. My first time in D. C. And fell in love with this field of student affairs. And upon working through my undergraduate degree, I realized pretty quickly that the career path I was on at the time was going to likely put me in a cubicle. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:11]: And as a very social individual who likes to be around people and gets energy from that, I decided that I needed to consider another option. And that NASPA conference confirmed for me that that field of choice needed to be student affairs. So recognizing that my entry into student affairs for many positions was going to be meeting the requirement of having a graduate degree. So I decided to, like many people, apply to a graduate program, take the GRE. Unfortunately, I didn't do well. I didn't really spend a lot of time preparing. In full transparency, I just believe my arrogance and presence was enough to get me in. I didn't have a stellar GPA. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:51]: I I tell people my academic story starts with me in my 1st semester getting a one point 66 GPA and getting placed on academic probation. And the next semester getting a 3.33 GPA. And so I didn't have the GPA necessarily to meet the qualifications, but I've had the tenacity, the resiliency, and the drive, and the willingness to say, you know what? Let's go for this goal. And, plaque for a master's program in student affairs at the University of Arkansas and I got told no. And I'm really thankful to that faculty member who met with me and said this might not be the right program in terms of getting you into the field but considering another option. Consider workforce development education. They have 2 tracks. 1 is wor, human resource development education. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:04:40]: One is adult education. Which one would you be interested in? And I'll connect you to the department head. And I thought that in the event that this student affairs, higher education trajectory doesn't work out for me, the idea of hiring, firing, and training people seems really interesting to me. So let me go with that route. And I did the program. It was a online master's program, but I decided to take some classes in class because I love the classroom and thought that a good class to take in class is research. So I finished my master's degree at the University of Arkansas, the same place I did my bachelor's degree and started my entry into student affairs. And that's what made me say, in order to get to this field, you've gotta get your master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: You kind of answered my next question, which really comes down to, as you are thinking about your graduate degree, your your master's degree, why you chose to stay at the University of Arkansas. But you kind of answered that. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit because you you decided after a few years of working that you went from the master's degree, your master's in works workforce development, and you decided to go back to school. And you decided to work on a doctorate degree, a PhD, this time in college student affairs administration. So we heard your story about not getting into that that college student personnel or college student affairs program and master's degree, but you did get into a doctor doctor degree, and you chose to go to the University of Georgia. So talk to me about going into the workforce, but then making that next decision to go back to school. What were the impetuses for you to want to do that? And why the University of Georgia? And why a PhD in this area? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:06:30]: After graduating with a master's degree, I started my student affairs journey, professional journey, full time working in residential life. A lot of people who start in the student affairs get into this particular area within the field and I enjoyed it. You know, being able to impact and have an opportunity to shape, mold, and work with another generation of up and coming students who were really excited about the things they were gonna do with their degrees kept me intrigued and working in the field on top of going in to events and conferences and staying engaged. And I worked at the University of Central Oklahoma for 3 years and then decided that, you know what? I spent enough time as a RD, as a residential, RC at the time, residential coordinator. So now it's time to go to another position. And I went to the University of Oklahoma in a role where the title doesn't matter, the work is what matters more. And and so within that, while I was there, I met had a lot of colleagues who were interested in pursuing doctoral degrees. Also at this time, I recognized that for some doctoral programs, you needed to have at least 3 years or more work experience. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:07:40]: And so as I'm learning and having conversations with colleagues and friends who are going back to get their doctoral and was told no again. And so not that one but another one. And in, you know, in all honesty, what led me to really think about where I was and what was gonna be next in my career was talking to mentors. Many of them pouring into me still saying, you can go to be more in this field. You can do more in this field. And I had a vision and a goal to be a dean of students. A lot of my mentors were dean of students or vice presidents of student affairs or college presidents, and I wanted to be at that position. And so I knew the qualification for many individuals who were going to who wanted to do that was to get a doctoral degree. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:08:33]: Happened to be working at an institution that offer programs but I sided decided that I think now was the time to go do something else, to go somewhere else. And so as I was looking at different programs, what appealed to me at the University of Georgia, 1, I had a mentor who graduated from the University of Georgia who I held in high regard and respect still very much to this day. He was a graduate of the institution. 1 of my fraternity brothers, I'm a member of Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. And one of my fraternity brothers was working in, the Greek life office at the time as a full time part time graduate student in the program and full time employee and having a phenomenal experience. But what really solidified it for me was going to yet again a NASPA conference. And while there, I met 3 current students, now alums of the program, who each were doing different conference presentations and I met them and they were 3 completely different people, personalities, styles, dress, appearance. Everything about them was very different. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:09:33]: And then they did a concurrent session with another good friend of mine. And I said, all 3 of you all are in the same program? And they say, yes. I said, Sign me up. So I then started my my road back to applying to grad school, taking the GRE, really working through more intentionally this time, my preparation for applying to graduate school. Hadn't been or visited the institution. Didn't even know it was in Athens, Georgia. I knew it was in Georgia, but I didn't do my due diligence in that way. But applied to the program and was really, really interested and got admitted into it and decided that, yeah, I think I'm a go. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:10:10]: But at Georgia, they had this program called Acceptance Students' Day. I took that event as an opportunity to go visit the campus, to go sit in a class with one of the faculty members, to meet them in person, and to really gauge and see myself living in Athens, moving across the country a little bit, a few states, and saying confirming for me that this was the decision I needed to make. And those 3 days, I decided, yes, Georgia is where I'm going to go and was connected with a lot of resources to support to help me in that transition. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: So let's talk about transitions because I know that with every different degree that you go in, there are transitions. There are things that you have to learn either before or as you go in that are going to be pivotal in how you are able to start your path on the right foot and being able to then build those strategies that'll help you to be successful throughout the entire program. Going from undergrad is very different than being in a a master's degree is very different than being in a doctoral program. The expectations are different, etcetera. As you think back to the different transitions that you went through and you look at the endpoint, you were very successful. A your success throughout grad school? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:11:36]: So one of the first things is learning to adapt the mentality of being a scholar, of being a graduate student. It as you've already stated, the expectation of this process, of this experience is much more. The second thing I had to adapt to and really learn to be successful in initially starting is managing the volume of work, particularly at the doctoral level. You are reading a lot. You are consuming a lot of information. And the expectation of your ability to come to an engaging, 1st couple of weeks to take that on, And that can be a lot in the 1st couple of weeks to take that on while you're also, for me, navigating living in a brand new city, living in a brand new state, managing some homesickness. Even though I hadn't lived in the state of Arkansas for 5 years at that point, that was still home for me. And so being away from there, the other part of the transition for me is relying on and knowing that I had support systems who were going to be with my family. My father who was living at the time, health was not the greatest during my time of being at the University of Georgia. And so I'm now 8 and a half, 9 hours away. That's not a way you can you can't get a phone call and just drive down quickly. You really got to think through some things. And so that was a challenge for me. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:04]: The financial aspect. I feel like I did not make a good financial investment initially in terms of planning through how I was gonna pay for this. I took out way too much of student loans my first couple of years. And so getting that amount of money at one time and trying to think through how I'm going to manage that over the course of a semester or the entire year was a transition for me. And then the last point is really understanding academic research at the graduate level. I immediately, as a part of the program, was joined into a research team, a research team that was already off and running with reviewing data. They already had IRB approval. These are words of which I had no prior knowledge of, or experience with extensively. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:50]: And so that was very new for me and that was hard. And so I felt a lot of times that I was just coasting through, hoping to not be seen. And the point where I started to be successful happened during the point when I recognized and made a decision for myself that you can be seen, you can show up in the version that you are at the place that you are. This is not a competition. That program has a community model, not necessarily a cohort model. So we start together for the 1st year or 2, but after that, we can take different classes. We may in we may exit at this this position of being a doctoral student or to candidacy and graduation in different places cause they're a full time and part time students. And so the class that really confirmed me that you are in charge of this process, there's only one name attached to the ID number, is statistics. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:14:41]: I took a summer statistics class. I had, one of my community members we star I started with and she was really good at statistics. And she was like, Hey, I'm a I'm a carry you through this. We're gonna get through this class. And very quickly in the 1st week, I realized she is not going to get me through this. She had a full time job and was juggling her family. So that first assignment, getting it back and not doing well, I said, oh man, you've got to figure out what you're going to do. Because you are gonna have to get yourself through this. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:15:09]: And that point when I took that ownership, that's when things actually started to get a lot better for me. That was year 3. And then 4 years it took me to finish the degree. So it took a while. And I'm glad that I had that experience. I'm glad that I had those challenges with the research team and learning to adapt this new mentality of being a doctoral student. It was not easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]: No. It's definitely not easy. And it take definitely takes time to be able to get into that groove and be able to understand what not only your faculty expectations are, but what the university expectations are. And the the the the mantle that you're wearing for that degree is going to be different depending on where you are, you know, in the program and all of them. There's tons of expectations that you've got in. Now you and we and I say that not to scare anyone, but just to go in with open eyes and to ask the right questions. And speaking of asking the right questions, doctor Grimes, as I said, wrote a book just recently that is called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. So, Justin, let's talk about that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]: Talk to bring me back to the beginning and tell me why you decided you wanted to take the time to work, to put all this together, to put this out into the world, and to help others in this way. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:16:28]: So this is quite an interesting experience for me, writing a book. I never thought again, my goal was to be a dean of students and vice president and doing a doctoral internship for 2 years in the dean of students office. I quickly realized I don't wanna be a dean of students or a vice president of student affairs. And, you know, sometimes when you have that experience, you are having to figure out what you're going to do next. And my funding and my contract was not renewed in that office. And so that happens. That's real. Sometimes you lose your funding or your assistance citizenship and you've gotta figure out what you're going to do. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:17:02]: Because of the relationships that I have with the graduate school going to recruitment events and talking with different prospective students, an opportunity was presented to me from the dean. The dean had already ended all of her positions for the following year, and one was created just for me to work in the graduate school business office. And while there, that really started my interest in learning about graduate school is what ultimately led me to write my own dissertation around what motivates students to pursue PhDs in education. And after I finished the doctoral degree, my wife, who I met while I was at the University of Georgia, got a job at Virginia Tech. And during that time as a spousal hire, I'm starting this, she was the primary hire, I am the secondary hire. An opportunity was presented at the graduate school to continue my work working in graduate school as a recruiter managing diversity programs and retention programs. And what I found being on the road is that I could talk to any prospective student about the institution. I could sell the institution. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:02]: But what I could not always do is sell the program. What I did not always was able to do was to talk through funding. To talk about what you really need to be a full time student or a part time student. What funding look like, should you do this locally. There was a lot of questions that students had, but there were also more questions that students weren't asking before they made the decision to pursue it. And me included. I just kinda again, I was here earlier that I went to I accepted Georgia's site on the scene. And so this is what led me to write the book during the pandemic. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:35]: Also during this time, my mother was navigating a cancer diagnosis. She has stage 4 thyroid cancer. So I'm traveling between Virginia and Arkansas to manage her, as well as my mother-in-law was battling a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So me and my wife were on the road, and I needed something to pour into that was going to give life beyond this experience of 2 individuals battling it, cancer that was not curable and life being taken away. So I dove straight deeply into writing this book. It was the book that I needed. It was the book I wanted to give every student that I met. It was the book that I want everyone who thinks about graduate school to grab and go forward with. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:19]: And that's what led me to write this book. It's been a wonderful experience. I never thought I would become an author. I never thought that I would leave for higher education, but that is what this book has led me to. So I share that story about my start in graduate education because it's what led me to this point now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:37]: So as you put this book out into the world and people are reading it, what are some of the high points, the pieces that you really want everyone to take away from this book? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:48]: I want everyone to, with this book, to first start about thinking start with thinking through your dreams and your goals. What exactly do you want out of your career and your life? And is a graduate degree required to do that? Or at what point will graduate education be connected to your long term professional career? As there are more jobs that are gonna be required in the future with graduate degrees, I want individuals to be prepared. The second thing is, for me, this book and the work that I do is to help individuals make a more informed decision about the funding of their degree, about what type of degree they wanna do, where they wanna do it at, how much did he commit to that. These are some of the questions that we ask in the book like how do I select my program is the question and how do I pay for graduate school is one of the 20 questions and what types of student loans can I use is another question? I want individuals to go through a guide step by step of identifying what this process entails. And then after the at the conclusion of reading it, feel more informed, feel more prepared, able to fully engage in the application process successfully. And so far, I mean, majority of the students who have used this book have been able to get into graduate school with no problems. And so for me, I know that the work is meaningful because I'm getting messages every day through social media and LinkedIn about the significance this book has had on people's lives. And I'm looking forward to this recent class of 2024 graduating, as well as the new class who's getting ready to start graduate school we have read this book. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:22]: So now that you have written this book and you finish your degree, as you look at the future, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you have for yourself? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:21:35]: So one of the things I love about the graduate degree is the opportunity to engage in critical thinking at a deeper level. The graduate degree provided me an opportunity to really understand when someone says the research says, I know what to do in terms of investigating and digging deeper into that. The graduate degree helped me to be able to unpack information in a way. The graduate degree helped me to become a better translator. Tell people the reason why I got a graduate degree is to be able to communicate between the haves and the have nots. Those in academia and those who are not. I I see myself as much of a bridge to higher education. And so the degree prepared me for such. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:22:16]: The relationships, the networking that this degree provided me with, the credentialing that it's provided me with, I couldn't have even guessed that that's what it would would would bring for me ultimately. And so for me, as I think about the value of the graduate degree, it sometimes comes down to 4 things for people. You know, how much money it is? Is money the driver? Is networking credentialing the driver? Is always being a researcher or quest a thirst for learning the driver? Or goals? Is it connected to a goal? And so for me, this has done wonders in terms of what I've been able to do. But more importantly, I know that the work that I am doing in the book is changing lives. I know that it is providing inspiration to in the representatives in their family to go to college. For me, I'm the first one of my neighborhood, the first one of my family to obtain the doctoral degree. And that means a lot. And now I know that people who are connected to me see that it's a possibility, and it's one that they probably will choose. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now as you look back at your own experience going through graduate school and your graduate education, what are some tips that you might want to offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:23:39]: First thing I want people to do is to really think through, again, what is your career trajectory? The second thing I want people to do is make a budget. Every person who's thinking about pursuing one of these degrees, whether it be for profit or not for profit, online or in person, you really need to make a budget to see what your current expenses are to identify what your financial needs are. The second thing, and I have a workbook for this on my website, is to think through your skills, your needs, your wants, and your gifts. What are you really gifted at? What are you really skilled at doing? And how is the graduate degree going to be a compliment to that? And to the point that you mentioned earlier about being open to things, I encourage people to really be open to the possibility of what this degree can do for you. I tell folks that there are a lot of opportunities to engage in entrepreneurial efforts through the graduate degree. It's not about just taking a class for the sake of taking it. It is also seeing how you can use that and share that out with the world. The next thing I encourage people to do is to look through and think about the terms and conditions for any student loan. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:24:45]: I know that there are limited options related to student loans but really understand what you're registering and signing up for when you fill out the FAFSA and they are offering you that. I did not read this thoroughly and I wish I would have. So I would have had I had the budget and really thought about how much I needed, I wouldn't have taken out so much. And the next piece of advice I encourage people to really 2 things I will say is think about the supports that you need to be successful in this process. What do you need outside of this? Because I think that for a number of people, everybody I think who starts a graduate program are gifted academic. But what they what helps get people to the end, especially at the doctoral level, is their level of managing resiliency and managing managing difficult moments throughout this experience. Because there will be difficult moments. If you have an advisor, like I had one, a chair, who said, I think your writing is going the wrong direction and you've already submitted chapter 1 through 3. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:25:41]: That is hard to manage. And so when your chair is saying, hey, we're gonna push your your defense back another to the next semester, that is a difficult moment and you need those supports inside and outside of the academic space to walk you through that. And the last thing I will tell people is enjoy the process. Enjoy every aspect of this. From getting the transcripts to hitting submit on your application to starting your first class to enrolling to meeting colleagues, to establishing collegial relationships and professional relationships with faculty. Enjoy all of this. I know it can be very stressful but I don't think people spend enough time enjoying it and recognizing that this is still a small amount of people who possess this degree these degrees. And so the enjoyment piece sometimes comes on the after side of it, right, when you're finished. Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:34]: But if you could just celebrate the fact that you wrote your first paper, that you got through the 1st semester, and keep going, you will ultimately finish their degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:43]: Now Justin, if people wanna find your book, where's the best place for them to go? Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:47]: Go to apply to graduateschool.com. 2 is the the the letters t o. You can also follow us on social media at apply the number 2 g school. Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Doctor. Justin Grimes. And there is where you can find a lot of information, blog posts, resources, copies of the book, and everything else we're doing with the business applied to graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:09]: Well, Justin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you're putting out into the world and for what you shared today, and I wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis introduces us to Kim Snodgrass, a current Master of Public Health student at the University of Michigan-Flint. Kim’s story is an inspiring testament to perseverance, resilience, and the unyielding spirit to succeed, even after two decades away from the academic world. This blog post delves into her journey, highlighting the challenges she faced, the support systems that guided her, and the lessons she offers to others aspiring to excel in graduate school. The Decision to Return: A Leap of Faith Kim Snodgrass’s academic journey began over 20 years ago at Marygrove College, where she earned a Bachelor’s of Science in Human Nutrition and Foods. Following the sage advice to gain work experience first, Kim spent two decades serving her community through various public health roles, notably within women and infant health programs. It was this hands-on experience that reignited her passion for public health and solidified her decision to pursue a Master of Public Health (MPH) degree. Choosing the Right Program: Why Public Health and Why U of M Flint? When Kim decided to return to school, the choice of a Master of Public Health was clear. Her work underscored the importance of addressing social determinants of health—factors like socio-economic status, education, and environment that significantly impact health outcomes. This alignment with her professional experience and aspiration to serve underprivileged communities made the MPH program a natural fit. For Kim, the University of Michigan Flint stood out for its welcoming community and supportive environment. Unlike larger, impersonal institutions, U of M Flint offered a family-like atmosphere reminiscent of her undergraduate experience at Marygrove College. This sense of community and belonging played a crucial role in her academic success. Overcoming Obstacles: Embracing Challenges in Graduate School Returning to graduate school after a long hiatus posed significant challenges, from mastering new technologies to navigating different academic requirements. Kim’s primary mode of learning in her undergraduate years had been in-person, but now she had to adapt to online learning platforms like Canvas. The transition was daunting, but U of M Flint’s IT support staff played a pivotal role, patiently guiding her through each step. The challenges did not stop there. Courses like biostatistics proved particularly tough, but with proactive communication and seeking help, Kim turned potential roadblocks into building blocks. She reached out to her professors, took advantage of tutoring services, and relentlessly pursued academic excellence. Building a Support Network: The Mentor Collective One of the invaluable resources that Kim credited for her success was the Mentor Collective at U of M Flint. Initially, she was mentored by someone who helped her navigate the intricacies of her program. This mentorship was so impactful that Kim eventually became a mentor herself, guiding others through similar struggles. This support network provided not only academic assistance but also emotional and motivational support. Practical Applications: From Classroom to Community The knowledge and skills Kim gained in her MPH program have had a direct impact on her professional life. Working as a dietitian in Detroit, she applies her understanding of social determinants of health to better serve her clients. Questions on her nutrition assessments now include social factors, enabling her to make more informed referrals and provide comprehensive care. Tips for Future Graduate Students: Setting Up for Success Reflecting on her journey, Kim offers several tips for prospective graduate students: Research Programs Thoroughly: Understand what each program offers and ensure it aligns with your passions and career goals.Engage with Campus Life: Participate in fairs and events to build connections and immerse yourself in the community.Build a Supportive Network: Surround yourself with peers who uplift you. Engage with mentors and professors proactively.Utilize Campus Resources**: Take advantage of tutoring centers, writing centers, IT support, and other services offered by the institution. Stay Passionate: When challenges arise, remember why you chose this path and let that passion drive you forward. Kim Snodgrass’s journey through graduate school is a compelling narrative of resilience, support, and relentless pursuit of knowledge. Her story underscores the importance of a supportive academic environment and the power of community in overcoming obstacles. Aspiring graduate students can draw valuable lessons from her experience, using her strategies to pave their own paths to success. As Kim continues her journey, aiming even higher with aspirations for a doctorate, her story remains a beacon of inspiration for all those embarking on their academic adventures.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, I know that you're on a journey. You are on a journey to either get into graduate school, get through graduate school, get out of graduate school. There's lots of places that someone may be as you're listening to this. And I love being able to talk to you every week to learn a little bit more about the journey that you're on, but also to help you and to offer some resources, some advice, some things that may be able to make that journey a little bit smoother. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different people that have gone to graduate school, that are in graduate school now, but are working their way through or have gotten out of graduate school that are sharing their experiences with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Because it's important. It's important to be able to listen, to learn, and to be open to seeing ways in which others have gone along that path, have found success in that path, may have struggled in that path, but they've picked themselves up and found that success in the end. That's why every week I do bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share that with you. And they come from all walks of life. They come from all types of educational programs. But no matter what program that they're on, they all had to do something or many things to be able to find the success that they wanted in their graduate school journey. And that's what I'm trying to make sure that you can take out of every episode. And that's why every episode brings you different people. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: So this week, I am really excited to be able to bring you a brand new guest. Kim Snodgrass is with us today, and Kim is a current master of public health student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at Marygrove College and along the way ended up in the master's of public health program. So we're gonna be talking about that journey, learning a little more about her, and I'm really excited to have her here. Kim, thanks so much for being here today. Kim Snodgrass [00:02:36]: Thank you for having me, doctor Lewis. It's such an honor and privilege to be here with you on this podcast. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. Really excited to be able to talk with you today and learn a little bit more. And one of the things that I love to do first is to turn the clock back in time. I wanna go back to those undergraduate years. You did your undergraduate years back at Marygrove College. And at some point, it might have been during undergrad. Maybe not. May have been after a few years of working. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: You made a choice. You made a choice to go to graduate school. Talk to me about that progression, that journey, and what led you to decide that going and getting that master's of public health was the right choice for you? Kim Snodgrass [00:03:20]: Absolutely. So my journey started over 20 years ago. I attended Marygrove College, which is a small Catholic college that was in Detroit, Michigan, and I pursued my bachelor's of science in human nutrition and foods with a concentration minor in natural sciences. And so people always say don't go to grad school right away. Just work for a while, see what you're passionate about, and that was absolutely the best advice because I really didn't know what I wanted to get my master's degree in. I looked at getting a master's of nutrition, but that wouldn't have gone very well for me because I'm more in the community public health space. That's where I can be utilized the most and where I like to be. So I was out of school for 20 years, which is a very long time, and I decided, hey, I need to go back for my master's degree, and public health would be a wonderful, degree for me to obtain. I feel that it really combines well with having a nutrition background and wanting to work in the community. I spent several years working at the infant the women, infants, and children program, which is known as WIC, and working at maternal infant health program. So they were both in the community and public health space, and so here I am. U of M Flint has been an exceptional place for me to be. Everyone's so open and welcoming. They said, Kim, you've been out of school for 20 years, but we're gonna help you. We're gonna help you. We're gonna guide you, and, absolutely, that's what's happened for me. All my professors have been very helpful. They referred me to the writing center because they know I've been out of school for a long, long time, so I was able to utilize those services. Had a couple of hard courses, biostatistics. A shout out to Doctor. Sally. That class is exceptionally challenging but U of M Flint was there to help me through their tutoring service since doctor Sally tutored me personally. And so it's just been a very wonderful journey. Kim Snodgrass [00:05:13]: One that I've recruited people to come to U of M Flint just because the program is such a wonderful program. And in being a dietitian so I've been a dietitian for 20 years. Right now, they're requiring that all dietitians have their master's degree entering into the program. I would have been grandfathered in, but I didn't wanna come along on this journey knowing that all my colleagues will have their master's degree, and I did not. And so that again prompted me to go back for my master's degree. So being at U of M Flint, I'm about halfway through with my program, and that's exciting to me. And, really, on this journey, I I realized that I love being in school. I actually wanna pursue my doctorate in public health, and so I feel that with U of M Flint, having that background, having that knowledge, and learning so much, it's really just helped me grow even in my professional career. So I'm just excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So as you mentioned, it's been a long journey. You worked for a number of years, And as you were working and identified that you wanted to do more community work, you made a decision to go to graduate school. You chose to do a master of public health. Talk to me about, 1, why a master of public health? You probably could have choose to chosen a number of different types of degrees that are out there. But why that program? And then even more so, why the University of Michigan Flint? Kim Snodgrass [00:06:35]: Well, so those are very good questions. So public health because I'm concerned about people and their social determinants of health. I'm concerned about people who are underprivileged and under represented. I grew up in Detroit, Michigan and very poor product of a single parent home. And so looking at the social determinants of health, how that affects someone, where they live, where they grow, where they work, how it affects their health outcomes, and just their life period, that intrigues me. And being able to have that knowledge to be able to serve the underprivileged and underserved population, I know that I can be a change agent, and U of M Flint has helped me to do that. And why did I choose U of M Flint? Because, hey, it's U of M. It's an exceptional school. Kim Snodgrass [00:07:21]: And when I visited the campus, I met the professors. I met, all the people there. Everyone's so open and welcoming, and so I felt at home there. I actually felt like I was back at Marygrove. It reminds me a lot of Marygrove because it's just a family type of feeling, and people really take you under their wings. They guide you. They make sure that you're on the right track. They don't leave you behind. Kim Snodgrass [00:07:44]: I feel like they're there to help you. And me having I'm an older learner. I've been out of school a long time. People didn't look at me and look at me like I was different. They say, hey. Can we know that you'll have some challenges, but we're gonna help you get through those challenges? And I am a true success story, and I just I'm so thankful to all my professors for believing in me, spending extra hours after class to tutor me on Saturdays, tutoring me. They didn't have to do that, but they wanted to pour into me because they saw my potential, and I really appreciate that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: Now going back to school after 20 years of not being in school is a transition, and even going from undergrad to graduate school is a transition. There's a difference in the way that you're educated, a different difference in the way that you have to to act and to provide knowledge back to the class. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what you had to do. As you transitioned back into graduate school. No, As you transitioned into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey? Kim Snodgrass [00:08:59]: So, again, a really good question because I feel like I'm an in person learner. My undergraduate classes, all my classes were in person. With U of M Flint being so far for me, it's about an hour and a half drive from where I live, I'm pretty much an online student. So becoming more familiar with technology, I actually had to reach out to U of M Flint IT just to help me get on Canvas and to know how to navigate to be an online student, but they walked me through the process over the phone. They were exceptional. I was on the phone literally crying like, look. I'm a old person trying to navigate, and they were like, you don't have to worry. We got you. Kim Snodgrass [00:09:38]: And it just made me feel so at ease that they were able to walk me through the process. They would not let me off the phone until I was in the system, knew how to operate Canvas, and they made things seamless for me. Just being able to say, okay. How do I go to the online library? When I was at Marygrove, we were on the card catalog. We had to actually flip through little pieces of paper to find books. Now everything is online. So I was able to go to the library, the U of M Flint librarians helped me navigate the online library system. They helped walk me through things over the phone. Kim Snodgrass [00:10:14]: They did not leave me behind. They helped me with research. The writing center helped me a lot because the way I wrote papers in Marygrove was in the MLA style. Now pursuing my Miles per hour, I have to write everything at APA. So, again, the writing center, they will proofread my papers. They will say, hey, Kim. You did this great, but you didn't do that great, and we're gonna help you. You gotta cite your sources this way. Kim Snodgrass [00:10:35]: You have to not use a whole bunch of direct quotes. You have to learn how to paraphrase. You went to graduate school now. So from the librarians to the writing center to IT, everyone has been exceptionally helpful because they know that I needed those services and that I had challenges. So going from undergraduate being in person to graduate being online, U of M Flint made that possible, and it hasn't been hard for me at all because I've had someone walk me through the process every step of the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]: Now I heard you say you struggled. And one of the things that I know you talked about was statistics. And that was something that you said that one of your faculty members really worked closely with you on. And sometimes in graduate school, you hit that proverbial wall. You hit a point where you question yourself, you question your ability in the program. A lot of times people call it the imposter syndrome. But a lot of times there is a point, whether it's in your 1st term, in the middle of your program, your last term, there probably is going to be some point where you hit that. Talk to me about that, in that struggle that you hit, and what you had to do to overcome that to come out on the back end successful in the journey that you're on? Kim Snodgrass [00:11:55]: So absolutely. So U of M Flint has this wonderful program called the Mentor Collective, and I actually had a mentor when I first started that helped me navigate through the system and learn all the things that I could utilize to be successful. Fast forward, I'm a mentor in the Mentor Collective because I had someone carry me under their wings. And so what they told me to do is if you're having problems in your classes with your professor, you need to reach out to your professor. Don't wait till the very end when you're failing to say, hey. I didn't get anything. So that was very helpful information that my mentor at the time shared with me. Going through biostatistics class, I talked to my professor. Kim Snodgrass [00:12:35]: I let her know that I was struggling, that I was not doing well, not comprehending a lot of information. So she took additional time with me after class. She took additional time with me on the weekends, and then U of M Flint also had tutoring services that was very helpful to me as well. So again, talking to my professors, engaging with tutors, no one let me fall by the wayside. They ensured my success, and you just have to be proactive. You can't wait till the last minute. If you're having a problem, you need to reach out to the appropriate people and let them know that you need help, and they will be there to help you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Now I know you're still in the program. You're working toward the end and and getting to that there's that light at the end of the tunnel for yourself. As you've been going through this program for yourself, talk to me about how you've been able to utilize the information that you are learning in the work that you do daily. Kim Snodgrass [00:13:26]: So absolutely. So being a dietitian and working in the Detroit community, I'm able to look at a patient and kinda go through their assessment, and I ask them their social determinants of health questions on my nutrition questionnaire about if a patient is struggling with food. Do you have access to food? Are you struggling with putting food on your table for you and your children? So there's questions about the social determinants of health on my nutrition assessment. If that patient is struggling, I'm able to make certain referrals for those patients. I'm able to refer them to different programs so that they can have food delivered to their homes, to their porches, even if they have transportation issues. Knowing all about the social determinants of health, what that entails, it's allowed me to become a better dietitian. It's allowed me to better service my clientele in the Detroit community because I know what they need help with. And so I'm able to look at them, ask those questions, make those assessments, and better service them because we need people to eat. Kim Snodgrass [00:14:27]: If you don't eat, you struggle, you know, to learn. You struggle to do good at work, and you need food for energy. And so being able to make those connections, I feel, has made me a better clinician, and that's exceptional because I've been a clinician for 20 years. But this program, looking at what we need to better service inner city people, which I used to be a inner city person. I grow grew up in Detroit. It's allowed me to become a better dietitian, and that makes me feel really good about myself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:56]: Now as you look back at the journey that you've been on through graduate school and you think about what you've learned along the way, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate school, whether it be for a master's in public health or something else that would help them find success sooner? Kim Snodgrass [00:15:12]: So it's good to go on the website of the school that you're looking at. For instance, you have in Flint. Look at the programs. See what intrigues you. See what speaks to you. See what you're passionate about because you're gonna need to be passionate about a subject because when it gets hard, you have to remember that this is something that you really, really wanna do, and so that's gonna help you pull through. You're gonna have to surround yourself with students and people who will bring you up, meaning you have to have a core group, people that you can study with, call on the phone, and go over information with because they can help you along the way. So I say get a core group, especially when you first start out. Kim Snodgrass [00:15:50]: Go to all the fairs that they have at campus because in drenching yourself in campus life, you get to know people, people that can say, you know what, Kim? You would do good in this program. You would do good in in joining this, and that's gonna help you because I feel like it's not all about school work. It's about making those connections. It's about building those lasting relationships and it's about networking because you'll be out of school one day and you want to build those relationships and networks so that when you graduate you have people that can possibly write you recommendation letters or say, hey. This job will fit you well. You wouldn't be able to have those things if you didn't make those connections and if you didn't network. And then also building those positive relationships with your professors via email, via Zoom calls, via in person interaction. I feel like my professors, they all know me because Kim has questions. Kim Snodgrass [00:16:41]: Kim's gonna ask and they know I'm very verbal and they're very understanding. I mean, these are some of the best professors that I would say are out there because they're not just thorough and they're not just educated, but they also have compassion, and they also have empathy, and they also know how to bring things down to your personal level. I can remember being in class, and one of my professors asking me a definition. And I gave them the verbatim book definition that they kept in layman's terms. And they know because you need to be able to break information down so that everyone can understand. And that's what our professors do. They really care. They have a heart for you because they want you to learn. Kim Snodgrass [00:17:16]: They want you to grow, and they want you to be able to go out into the world and teach other people what you've learned here at U of M Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:23]: Well, Kim, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being willing to share some advice as well, and I truly wish you all the best. Kim Snodgrass [00:17:32]: Thank you so much, Dr.Lewis. I really appreciate that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on a journey through graduate school is a significant undertaking, filled with challenges and opportunities for growth. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Ja'Nel Jamerson, the CEO of the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, to delve into Ja'Nel's educational journey and the lessons he learned along the way. This blog post will explore key insights shared by Ja'Nel Jamerson, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently enrolled in graduate programs. Falling in Love with Your Subject Ja'Nel emphasizes the importance of falling in love with your subject when pursuing a graduate degree. Whether studying law, education, or any other field, passion plays a crucial role in driving your success. By immersing yourself in your subject matter and connecting all aspects of your learning to it, you can make the educational experience more engaging and meaningful. Ja'Nel's advice underscores the value of being unapologetic about your pursuit and leveraging that passion to fuel your academic journey. Building a Strong Network Another key takeaway from Ja'Nel's discussion is the significance of building a strong network during your time in graduate school. The connections you make with peers and professors can have a lasting impact on your career trajectory. These relationships provide a support system, offer valuable insights, and open doors to collaborative opportunities. Ja'Nel's personal experience highlights how the network cultivated in graduate school can serve as a valuable resource in professional endeavors, underscoring the importance of fostering these connections. The Value of Work Product Ja'Nel emphasizes the value of the work produced during graduate studies, noting that the process of articulating and defending your ideas is instrumental in developing critical skills. The ability to construct persuasive arguments supported by data, adapt to new information, and defend your positions is essential for effective leadership. By honing these skills throughout graduate school, students can enhance their capacity to navigate complex challenges and contribute meaningfully to their respective fields. Balancing Theory and Practice A crucial aspect of Ja'Nel's journey is the balance between theory and practice. He underscores the importance of integrating academic knowledge with real-world experience, highlighting the symbiotic relationship between the two. By finding programs that honor this balance and cater to mid-career professionals or those seeking to advance their skills, individuals can bridge the gap between theoretical concepts and practical application, enhancing their impact in their professional roles. Ja'Nel Jamerson's insights offer valuable guidance for individuals navigating the graduate school journey. From fostering a deep passion for your subject to leveraging networks and honing critical skills, his experiences underscore the multifaceted nature of graduate education. By embracing these lessons, current and prospective graduate students can enhance their academic experiences, cultivate meaningful connections, and equip themselves with the tools needed for success in their chosen fields. As you embark on your own graduate school journey, remember Ja'Nel's advice: fall in love with your subject, nurture your network, and value the work you produce as you balance theory and practice.     TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have conversations with you about this journey that you're on. Every week, we are going through the process of looking at grad school, and looking at what does it actually take to find success in this journey? And I say journey because it is a journey. Every step of the process is going to be a little bit different for every person. And your process of going to grad school, going through grad school is gonna be different than what I went through. But there are commonalities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: There are things that you can learn from others that have gone before you. And through those experiences, through what you learned from others, you can take those tools, add them to your toolbox, and help you to make good choices as you go through this process to help you find success sooner. That's why every week I love bringing you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, and they come from all walks of life. And this week we've got another great guest with us today. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today. Anyway, Doctor. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doctor Jamerson is the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, and we'll talk about that journey that he was on to move to that point in his career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: But we're also gonna talk about his educational journey and what it took for him to be able to get in, get through, and find success. Ja'Nelle, thanks so much for being here today. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:06]: Definitely. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: You know, first and foremost, what I wanna do is I wanna go back in time. I wanna turn that clock back, and I wanna go all the way back to those first moments that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, And at some point at some point, you decided from going and getting that degree in English language and literature that at some point during that point in time you said, You know what? I'm going to keep going, and I'm going to get my secondary education and teaching master's degree. So talk bring me back to that point and talk to me about that first step of what made you decide to take that jump and go to grad school. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:49]: You know, I was coming up on the end of my undergrad experience at Flint, and throughout undergrad, I worked in the office of opportunity initiatives or EOI. And I was offered an opportunity to become the assistant manager for pre college programs, the same pre college programs that I have participated in since I was an 8th grade student at Longfellow Middle School in Flint. And so I was deeply committed to the programs. I was deeply committed to the university, but I knew that a bachelor's in arts in English didn't give me enough discipline. Right. That I would need to, to really strengthen the pathways for underserved students coming from very similar situations that I came from to the university. And so I looked at a number of places and then applied to graduate school all over the state, but just found the program at U of M Flint to be so unique. It just really harnessing, I think, the university's unique positioning as an an urban centered institution. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:03:46]: Most people who, who are trained as teachers, they, they student teach for a semester. I student taught for 2 years in 3 different schools. Right, as a graduate student who already had discipline in English. And so my 2 years of graduate experience was all discipline in the science and in the art of teaching. And so it was complimentary to the work that I was doing as a staff member of the university. There were there were obvious benefits to being able to pursue my graduate degree while being a staff member. And so it, it made the most sense. People say like, man, Ja'Nelle, you got every degree you ever gotten from U of M Flint. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:04:18]: And I tell people that the university has always made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And I think that that's just a really clear experience being 22 years old right at the end of a of an under 21, actually at the end of an undergrad experience. Getting my first leadership opportunity offered to me before I even had the the ink was even dry on my BA and then also having the opportunity to go directly into graduate school. Again, it was just one of those offers that I couldn't refuse. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:43]: Well, you kind of just jumped into really my next question, which was you stayed at the University of Michigan Flint, not only for a master's degree. You went on and you got an educational specialist degree, then you went and continued on and got an educational doctorate degree. And I guess first and foremost, one of the questions that I would ask would be is you jump from being going and getting the the teaching degree into the EDS and EdD, which the EDS is very administratively focused. And then the EDD is administratively focused in some aspect, but also research focused. So talk to me about why the EDS, why the EDD, as you were looking at your career? Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:23]: You know, Chris, there's a why and there's a how. And I think my story at at Flendon Graduate school are, is, is very unique in both of those ways. The why is really much more related to that question around discipline. I had a bachelor's degree in English. Right? And it was something that I understood well. But in my master's degree, right, I was able to really focus in on the art and science of teaching. The the ed specialist is administratively focused, but it depends on which pathway you take. There are 2 pathways, the education leadership pathway and the curriculum and instruction pathway. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:53]: And my ed specialist is in curriculum and instruction, really leaning in, right, on not only how do you teach, but how do you build tools that respond to a number of pedagogical approaches. And again, that discipline really kind of scaffolded up to what I would consider a very administratively focused doctorate degree in education leadership, really focusing in education administration. And so I think that for all professionals, we, we want to strike a balance between our professional experiences, what we do every day and the technical skills and training that we receive through graduate school, through professional development. And I think that pathway for me being able to really build discipline in my subject, right, in a way that I appreciate language and I can teach, I can see language in math and I can see language in art and I can see language in history, but then really having to lean in on how do you lead from within individuals, a passion for that subject as well. That's the experience I got from U of M Flint in my masters of teaching, figuring out then how you make that replicable and scalable in a way that produces an outcome for all kids and families, that's where my discipline was built in my education specialist in curriculum and instruction. And then finally, making sure that those systems can exist despite the context in urban context, in rural context, in in suburban context is really the focus of of the doctoral degree. So that so that scaffolded approach to me also with a very consistent, I would say, theory of change being at the same university who was evolving within the urban context. 2008, when I started at U of M Flint was a very different community than 2015, right? When I, when I finished graduate school, post in the middle of the recession in my freshman year, deleting into the water crisis, COVID pandemic, U of M Flint has really evolved in a way that working in the city day to day, what I was learning in graduate school, I was able to deploy immediately, or my professors became my colleague, that type of reciprocity between graduate school and my professional experience was really valuable for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:57]: You know, I'd love to have you go back in time again and think about the transitions because the way that you are educated as an undergraduate student, different than the way that you're educated as a graduate student. And I say that in the sense that transitioning from a bachelor's to a master's, that's one transition. But then you take about 3 years off, and you transition back into an EDS, and then go immediately on to an EDD. But at each of those levels, you're being challenged in different ways to think about things in different ways, to process things in different ways, and your faculty have different expectations. So talk to me about what you had to do throughout each of those transitions to not only prepare yourself well for success, But what did you have to do to be able to truly make that optimal transition in and through the program and maintain that success throughout the different programs that you went through? Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:03]: Yeah. I think the first step in each of those transitions is building the confidence to believe that you can make the transition. We almost idolize things like graduate degrees and because, you know, fewer and fewer individuals have them as you go through the kind of proportion of society, they become kind of mysterious if you will. And so really just building up the confidence to say that, Hey, I can demystify this thing. I can do this. I think that's the first step in the transition. I can remember I was looking at all of those different master's programs, and I picked up the phone and called the number on the UN Flint site and got doctor Mary Jo Finney in the college of education. You know, she's the director of the program, but that was the first person who I spoke to. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:40]: And she just convinced me that this was the right program. Frankly, my GPA wasn't, it didn't match what was on the website. And so again, this whole confidence thing, right, it's it's big because you look at things like that and you say, okay, I don't qualify. Maybe I should move on. But there's always this line about the mix of education and experience. And I don't know that that people really understand how valuable that mix is, right, when you're deciding on a graduate experience. And so my experience as a, you know, a pre college programs leader, as a student in urban education, as someone who was deeply committed to teaching and learning, that was compelling to the University of Michigan, Flint. And while it was compelling to others as well, I was doubling down on a commitment that the university had already made to me. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:10:22]: So I knew my way around campus. I didn't have to figure out where to hang up my coat kind of deal. And so once once kind of getting past the confidence factor, I remember getting into my first graduate course and realizing that these aren't all people who are, who went to undergrad at you in Flint with me, but that once you're moving into the graduate level at the university, you're really moving into a much more regional constituency of mostly educational leaders who are practicing, who are either retooling or leveling up, right, their skills in the field. And so very quickly for me being immediately out of undergrad, sitting in a, in a graduate class with who still I consider to be some of the most profound educational leaders. And we were a cohort, so I still know who they are. I remember my notes on the first day. I just had a long list of words down the margin, just terms I hadn't heard before. And it's like, man, I gotta look these up in order to really to, to perform on par with my peers. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:15]: And so I would say that, you know, that can be jarring. And so it kind of takes you back to that confidence factor, obviously. But I think that what I ultimately realized is that the graduate experience is really about the unique contribution that each learner brings to the space. It's not solely about the course and the syllabus. Those will be whatever they are, but what you're doing with that subject, right, it's really the beauty of graduate school, the path between the assignment and the right answer. I mean, you can, depending on what your passion is, there's a lot of different approaches that you can take. And my master's program, that was revealed to me. We would take on issues like student, you know, student attendance and people who really cared about social emotional learning would dive deeply into social emotional approaches. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:57]: And people who were real disciplined, most all words, they would lean into the discipline policies that were necessary to address these things. But you realize that that the right answer is really leaning into the thing that you're passionate about and figuring out how do you leverage the resource of this university to make you more disciplined in that passion. And so that's what I learned in my master's degree. And I, and I, and again, it was all about teaching. And so I came out of graduate school as a much more confident leader, as much more confident learner, frankly, and realizing that there was real power in just asking questions that the smartest people in this world are those who know what they don't know. And I took 3 years to really discover the things that I don't know to, to take my master's degree and slam it on the table and realize that there's not a whole lot there. There's a lot undergirding it, but only practice would strengthen with the tools that I have received from from my master's program. And I earned an executive director role and transitioned from teaching into nonprofit leadership and really realized that what happened in my classroom was really an effect of what was going on at a much larger systemic level in part, right? That the curriculum that I taught every day and I could, you know, I could schedule it out. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:08]: I could figure out how to make it my own, but that curriculum was directed by someone who had a set of values. And if we're not addressing curriculum from the values and outcomes level, then what we're doing in classrooms will likely be limited. I realized that in those 3 years, my nonprofit leadership, and we were getting into the early childhood space, and I actually was in a meeting, Bob Barnett. He said, Ja'Nelle, have you ever thought about getting a NET specialist? And I said, no. I mean, he said, you know, you, we let's have lunch. You should really consider it. And that lunch, he made me aware of a number of graduate funding opportunities available at the university in a way that really made my education specialist degree know the low cost. And so while I wasn't considering it, it was a legitimate pathway to a doctorate degree, which I did have aspirations for. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:50]: I did have interest in curriculum, and the university had a mix of funding sources available for graduate students, particularly those who were practicing in in Genesee County. It was an opportunity. So that transition again, another offer that I couldn't refuse, let me into curriculum and instruction. And in that space, you're beginning to realize that this is about administration. This is not about, this is not about operationalizing what administration directs. This is about directing. And so when there's a different transition there, when you're realizing that what you're not subordinate, if you will, to your professors, right? These are colleagues, these are peers. You need to really hone in on the experience that they're bringing into that classroom. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:14:30]: Interrogate it, challenge it, challenge yourself and your assumptions, because you pay for that safe space. You pay to say the thing that maybe is wrong and would be embarrassing to say in your daily context. But here, no, you can really deal with this, Write a paper about it, if you will. So my ed specialist allowed for me who I had a teaching degree, but I didn't get the experience of teaching for a long period of time in the way that many of my colleagues and peers did. It allowed for me to interrogate a lot of my assumptions about curriculum and about. Instruction. And I think that just set me up well for my doctorate degree when I when I knew that now it's my opportunity to contribute to the field, that mix of not for profit leadership and education preparation and pre college programs. It really led me tightly to a clear dissertation topic that I would be thinking about regardless of if I was in an education program or not. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: So talking about that and talking about the end of the journey, you completed your degrees. You were successful in the journey for all three of those degrees or all four of those degrees. Now that you've completed your EDS, your EdD, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received, not only the EDS and EdD, but the masters as well, has prepared you for what you're doing as the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence? Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:15:57]: I think that, you know, I've been it's not only the degree, but it's the context on which it was earned. And so being able to earn graduate degrees as a practitioner, not having to choose between, do I take this job opportunity that allows me to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking about this thing or this great educational experience, but being able to integrate those? It's given me an interesting tool belt. I think I have a good balance between must see how and must know why. I'm a practitioner for sure, but I'm also a researcher. And I think that being able to, to balance those 2 imperatives, but not see them as independent of one another, but really as interconnected and interdependent is the unique, I think, set of skills of of that scaffolded experience from me walking moving from a very implementation granular level of classroom teaching. What are we doing with 30 kids in a room with a highly qualified teacher? Moving up to what does that look like at a system level in my education specialist degree, but then being able to fully explore what does it look like with multiple organisms, if you will, at an ecosystem level and my doctoral degree, making it to the Flood Center For Educational Excellence. This entire work is about building an educational ecosystem that works for all kids. And that means regardless of where they go to school, right, regardless of their family context, regardless of their neighborhood context. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:17:20]: And so the discipline that I built in my education specialist and replicability and scalability of education interventions, yeah, it's very relevant to this work. The 2 years that I spent in classrooms teaching for free as a student teacher in Detroit, very relevant to the work that we do with our network for school excellence and working with instructional leaders across multiple school systems to improve outcomes from Flint Kids. And then ultimately my work in researching how philanthropic foundations influence education reform and small to midsize urban school districts is extremely relevant. And the work that we're doing every day to harness the philanthropic interests, of of our community, connect that those passions and those interests with real opportunities and outcomes related to kids thriving. So a lot of relevance, I caution everyone who's seeking to further their education through graduate school, that it's the balance between, between theory and practice that I think is really the sweet spot and finding a program that honors that balance for where you are in your career. If you're taking a break, right? And you wanna lean all the way in, find a program that allows you to lean all the way in. If you're at a point in your career where you know that you need to advance or you feel that you need more discipline, right. To undergird your practice, find a program that's really focused on a mid career professional. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:18:35]: Who's working every day, but is really willing to lean in every single night to build their discipline. So it's prepared me for sure, but as a practitioner, I'm learning more and more every day, but that ability to learn that ability to interrogate a new issue that may be complex, I would say that muscle I've built, since from that first day as a graduate student with my list of words and terms down my margin to completing my doctorate of education, and that's a muscle that I've definitely built. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]: So as you think back to the graduate degrees and the graduate experiences that you've had and you think about students that are coming along behind you, no matter if they're going through an education degree at a graduate level or if they're going to law school, they're going chiropractic school, doesn't matter. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:19:33]: The first thing I I would say is just to really fall in love with your subject, whatever it is. So if you're going to law school and people say like, oh, yeah. I should really love the law. It's like I've met a lot of lawyers. I've never met anyone who really just loves the law. I mean, like, what is your subject? What is the thing that you will be thinking about that you would be doing that you care about regardless of what context that you're in? And there's likely opportunities to explore that through graduate education. So I say if you've made the decision to apply to graduate school, if you're already in graduate school, to be unapologetic about your subject and to really fall in love with it. Right? When you have an opportunity to write, write about your subject. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:20:13]: Right? When you have an opportunity to talk about your subject because that's going to make the work effortless. It becomes an opportunity almost to get this thing off your chest, this thing that you will be talking about anyway. So one major tip again would just be to fall in love fall in love with subject and be unapologetic about pursuit of it, no matter what path you've chosen from a graduate perspective. The second would be to really, honor, appreciate, and value the network that exists within any graduate classroom that they're in, their peers and colleagues who sit next to them, but also the professors who are imparting information on them. Many of my professors throughout my graduate education are now my peers and colleagues as chief executives of not for profits or other organizations in Genesee County and in Michigan. And so building rapport with those individuals in a way where social capital already exists, it really has downstream value for you professionally. And I would say that that's true of wherever you find yourself in grad school. And the same thing with your peers. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:21:14]: I tell people all the time that I didn't get the opportunity to teach as long as many of my peers did, but I was educated next to some of the most powerful educators that that that this ecosystem will likely ever, ever experience. And I could pick up the phone and call any of them. Having that network, you don't realize until you're in your office by yourself with the decision to make, and there's no more time to consider this thing. The value of being able to pick up the phone and call someone who understands the context in which you're leading from, but also understands, right, that the the outcome that that you're leading towards and has really had to wrestle with these concepts with you. And so, yeah, I just really value the network that exists, that is imparted on you in graduate school and and don't take it for granted. I'd say, lastly, you know, really hold on to your work product. The entire experience is scaffolded in a way that pushes you as a learner to get what is in your head out, right, in a way that really allows for your deeply held beliefs related to your profession or your subject, if you will, to be interrogated publicly. And, I mean, you don't really know the value or you really don't know how much so strongly you can believe in something until you have to defend it. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:22:29]: But that ability to make an argument defensible, to support an argument with data, to change an argument, if that data tells you something different, those are important skills for leadership that are transferable, I believe. So I just think those three things just really falling in loving falling in love with subject and being unapologetic about connecting all things to it, just really just honoring and valuing that network that that's available to you through graduate school. But then just lastly and certainly not least, just connecting all of those things together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:02]: Great points, and I truly appreciate you sharing all of those. Definitely things that every person should consider if they're thinking about going for a graduate degree, applying for a graduate degree, and spending the time, the effort, the money to go through that process, to push yourself in so many different ways. Juno, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for all of the pearls of wisdom, for all that you've shared today, and I truly wish you all the best. Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:23:29]: Definitely. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the path to becoming a physician assistant is a significant journey filled with challenges, growth, and invaluable experiences. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, host Dr. Christopher Lewis had a compelling conversation with graduating physician assistant student Hannah Richard. The dialogue delved deep into Hannah's personal journey, from her decision to pursue a career as a PA to navigating the rigorous demands of PA school. Let's explore key insights and reflections shared by Hannah as she transitions from student life to professional practice. Discovering the Path to PA School: Hannah's journey to PA school began with a spark of curiosity and intrigue during her high school anatomy class. Like many aspiring PA students, she was drawn to the profession's blend of medical knowledge and patient care. The process of deciding to pursue graduate education in physician assistant studies involved navigating challenges, doubts, and ultimately reaffirming her commitment to this rewarding career path. Preparing for PA School: As Hannah shared, the preparation for PA school goes beyond academic readiness. It requires gaining hands-on experience, accruing clinical hours, and honing essential skills to thrive in the demanding environment of a PA program. From working as a certified nurse assistant to learning procedures and patient assessment, each experience contributed to Hannah's preparedness for the rigorous journey ahead. Navigating the Challenges of PA School: PA school is a transformative experience that demands flexibility, resilience, and self-awareness. Hannah highlighted the importance of listening to oneself, understanding when to push forward and when to prioritize self-care. The transition from didactic learning to clinical rotations brings unique challenges, requiring students to adapt their study methods, collaborate with peers, and maintain a balance between academic rigor and personal well-being. Reflections on Professional Preparedness: As graduation approaches, Hannah reflects on how her PA school experience has equipped her for the next chapter in her professional journey. The diverse backgrounds and experiences of her classmates have enriched her learning, preparing her to navigate the complexities of patient care with confidence and competence. From mastering procedures to building practical skills, PA school has laid a solid foundation for Hannah's transition into the healthcare workforce. Advice for Aspiring PA Students: Drawing from her own experiences, Hannah offers invaluable advice to future PA students embarking on their graduate school journey. She emphasizes the importance of embracing all aspects of life during PA school, from academic pursuits to extracurricular involvement and mental health support. By actively engaging with resources, seeking mentorship opportunities, and maintaining a holistic approach to education, students can maximize their success and personal growth throughout their PA school experience. Hannah Richard's journey from student to graduating physician assistant is a testament to the dedication, passion, and resilience required to thrive in the field of healthcare. Her insights offer a glimpse into the multifaceted nature of PA education, emphasizing the significance of self-awareness, adaptability, and community engagement in fostering success. As aspiring PA students navigate their own paths, Hannah's story serves as an inspiring reminder of the transformative power of perseverance, learning, and embracing the full spectrum of experiences on the road to becoming a healthcare professional.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on this journey with you. This opportunity to talk to you every week about what you're doing to find success in this journey that you're on. Now you might be just starting to think about grad school. You might be in grad school. You might be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're almost done. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: Wherever you are in this journey, it is a journey. And every person that goes through what you're going through, goes through a unique journey for themselves. What's important is that you have some tools in your toolbox as you apply, as you go through graduate school that you can draw upon to be able to find success on that journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about finding ways to be able to help you to find success earlier in that process, to be able to help you to learn more about what you need to be doing as you, as I said, apply, go through and go beyond. So every week, I love being able to bring you different people. People that have gone through grad school, that are going through grad school, and have had different experiences. But those experiences have led them to find success in that journey that they went on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: And today, we have another great guest with us. Hannah Richard is with us today. And Hannah is a graduating physician assistant student from the University of Michigan Flint. She's actually graduating this term and heading off into her professional career. We just talked and talked about her future, and she has a job ready to go, going to be working on the west side of Michigan as a PA in an emergency room, just what just what she wanted to do. So she I know she's really excited about that. She's got a lot of things happening in her life. But throughout that experience, she's been able to find success, and I'm excited for her to share that journey with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: Hannah, thanks so much for being here today. Hannah Richard [00:02:26]: I'm excited to be here as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Well, I'm really excited that you are here today. And I guess let's turn the clock back in time. I would love for you to talk to me about the journey that you went on to be able to, at some point, through that undergraduate experience, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's degree to be able to get that master's degree, and especially masters in physician assistant studies. So talk to me about what went through your head that made you decide that graduate school was Hannah Richard [00:03:04]: right for you? Yeah. So I think similar to a lot of other master students or for that matter, PA students, we kind of all had a similar epiphany. Maybe in like high school or college. We came into contact with PA's or became aware of the profession. My journey is similar to that. I took an anatomy class in high school and I was really shocked with how much I was intrigued by it. And prior to that, I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to do in college. And I had time, you know, I was a junior in high school. Hannah Richard [00:03:34]: And then I started college, and I made my major right away, a general health science degree. And then the university that I went to, Grand Valley, they had a pre PA emphasis, meaning that you could take prerequisite courses and still earn a degree. So I did that, and I'm not gonna lie. There was definitely a time where I changed my degree from that to a different degree just because I'd heard of the daunting process of PA school and how difficult it is to get in. But somewhere along the line, I came back around to PA. I changed my major back, and I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, and I took the prerequisites as needed. Took classes in the summer to kind of graduate faster, and then I knew I needed some health care hours. So I started working during the summer as well, and it was a little bit more difficult for me to work during the school year. Hannah Richard [00:04:31]: I actually was a college athlete, so I couldn't have a job and swim and go to school. So that kinda slowed things down, but it all worked out for the better. So I took 2 years off before PA school, and during that time I was applying, and the application cycle is very long. It can take probably up to a year. I I'd say that's how long it took me. But from by the time you apply and then you hear back, and then if you interview, and then if you're accepted. So it was a long journey for me, but I'm glad that I'm almost to the end. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]: So you took those 2 years off to figure things out and to make that next step for yourself. And in that journey, you applied, I'm sure, to a number of different graduate schools. You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that decision making process, and what made you choose that U of M Flint was the right program for you? Hannah Richard [00:05:26]: Yeah. So I tell everyone this who asks because actually at one point, during my career here, I was a graduate ambassador, so I kind of told the story a lot. But I went to a open house at U of M Flint for the PA program. This was right before the pandemic started, so I think it was probably February of 2020, and professor Gilkey, who is our director, actually was hosting the event, and I just heard all the wonderful things that they were setting up for this program and the promises of great rotations and excellent education and community service, and I was hooked. I was like, this is where I'd like to go. The campus is really nice, and it's somewhere that I've never really been before, so I said this is where I wanted to go. So like you mentioned, obviously, I applied to other places to cast a wide net, but ultimately, I wanted to end up here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: In those 2 years that you took to prepare yourself for applying, I'm sure that you were getting some experience in preparing in that way too, because I know PA programs do require you to have different experiences to prepare you for coming into becoming a physician assistant. Talk to me about the experiences that you had that prepared you for coming into PA school, and and how did that prepare you, or did you feel unprepared in any way when you entered the program? Hannah Richard [00:06:51]: Great question. I did some research because I knew I needed to find a way to get hours, and I found out the best way for me personally was going to become a certified nurse assistant, which is stands for CNA. And, I took the class. It was a summer class. I think it was like 2 or 3 weeks. And I got a job in a nursing home, around my college campus. And I did that for as long as I could, and I had to stop because I was then entering my senior year of college. After my senior year of college, I stayed on the west side for a little bit longer and I got another job in a different nursing home, one that was hiring. Hannah Richard [00:07:31]: And I worked there for a while. And then I came kind of towards the end of the road where I felt like I needed more experience. I was also kind of ready to not work on the weekends, and it's definitely a hard job, and I was ready for something different. So I had some connections which was fantastic which was fantastic. And because I was able to use some of the experiences I had from being a CNA and then learn so many new skills. I learned how to give injections, how to obviously take vitals. I did some charting. I was trained as kind of a part time scribe as well, so I was really grateful for the physicians and PAs and MPs that worked there. Hannah Richard [00:08:20]: They were willing to train me because they knew that I ultimately wanted to be a PA, and so they kinda pushed me out of my comfort zone. So I will say if I did not have that medical assistant experience, I probably would have struggled a little bit in PA school because, ultimately, we are providers, and we are responsible for charting and just assessing the patient overall, and I think I got a good taste of that when I was working in a Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: physician assistant student, and it is a demanding program. It's a dem it's a demanding sequence of events, didactic learning, clinical learning, taking what you're learning from the class, putting it into action. Talk to me about some of those moments, some of the things that you didn't expect when you entered into PA school that you had to learn for yourself that would have helped you maybe to know earlier? Hannah Richard [00:09:17]: That is definitely a deep question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is flexibility. I think that when students who were to some degree successful in their undergraduate career because you have to achieve good prerequisite grades and also have a part time job or a full time job getting the hours. I think a lot of us can be kind of set in our ways as far as studying or preparing for certain assessments. And I think the biggest thing PACE will taught me is to be flexible, that some ways of studying won't be the same as they were in college. So I kind of drew on many ways of studying. I would write things out. I would look at charts. Hannah Richard [00:09:58]: I would read books. I listened to podcasts, which is something I never did before. There's a lot of great PA podcasts, so I think flexibility is one of the biggest things as far as what I had to kind of learn to adapt to. And then I think another thing about PA school that's really interesting is reaching out and being with people in your class. I think in undergraduate studies, I studied a lot alone. And when I was found myself in PA school, I studied with a group of friends frequently, and I think it helped all of our grades and helped all of our comprehension when you're talking and singing out loud. And then, of course, when it comes to patient evaluation course that we have, we have to actually perform the exams on fake patients. And so that was a perfect opportunity to bring in your friends to for that. Hannah Richard [00:10:49]: So I think flexibility and then just kind of accepting that other people around you has something to share just like you do as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:57]: So you took a couple of years off between your undergraduate work at Grand Valley and then came into grad school. And every student, when they make that transition into graduate school, it is a transition. And you do have to think about things differently, learn differently. You kind of mentioned some of those pieces. Talk to me about what you had to do to truly find success in that transition and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your time in the PA program. Hannah Richard [00:11:28]: That's a good question. I think one of the biggest things for me was learning to listen to myself. And when I say that, I mean, listening to how I felt. And this changed from didactic year, which is the 1st year of our pro 1st year and a half actually, to clinical year, which is another year. So in didactic, the studying is completely different. But I learned to listen to myself and see how I felt. If I if it was the end of the day and it was after dinner, I was tired. I didn't push myself too hard. Hannah Richard [00:12:03]: I would, you know, try to commit to maybe, say, 30 minutes of reading out of a textbook versus an hour and a half of studying. And this was especially true in clinical year, which is the year that I'm just completing. And the reason is is because we are driving all over to our rotation sites, and we deal with patients and providers and preceptors, and we still have to go home at the end of the day and study. So I think I really, really tuned into myself how I was feeling. Because if you're too tired and your brain is just zapped, you're not gonna be able to retain information. And I no one told me that before I came into PA school. I think everyone things I had heard would then were just like study, study, study, like, pull all nighters and, you know, do all the stuff that can make you successful. Well, I think that's absolutely absolutely not the case. Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: I think you have to give yourself grace because we are we're human. And I think that's true for when you practice as a PA. Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: You can't go, go, go, go and go, go, go, go and not listen to yourself because at the end of the day, the people that will be harmed by that are the patients and then ultimately yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:17]: And now you're getting to the end of your program. And as I said, you have this opportunity now to go out and to start in your career. Talk to me about the learning that you went through, through that didactic learning, through the clinical experiences. How do you feel that that has prepared you for the next step in your own professional journey? Hannah Richard [00:13:40]: I think it's prepared me really well. I think one of the cool things about preschool is that everyone comes in with different backgrounds, kind of like you mentioned. So while someone may have worked in a nursing home, someone may have worked in a doctor's office, someone may have been a scribe in a hospital. And I think that's really cool and not a lot of professions kind of get that pre master's degree or pre doctorate degree education and learning experience. So I think having different classmates with different specialties prior to b school is is huge. You know, someone may be able to help you on this topic, and others may be able to help you on this exam or procedures. Something that I think gets overlooked to the general public who may not know a lot about PA school is while we're learning this information, we're also learning procedures. So we have days where we learn lumbar punctures and chest tubes and arterial lines and IVs. Hannah Richard [00:14:36]: And because that is a part of our training. And even if you go into say a cardiology office and you may not use those procedures, you still have to learn them and become competent in them. So kind of to, like, round up your question is, I think it prepared me and my classmates really well, and I think it's something that is just really neat about PA schools that we all have different experiences. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Now earlier, you mentioned that in your time at the University of Michigan Flint, you also acted as an ambassador, and you talked to prospective students. And I guess as you're talking to students specifically about becoming a physician assistant or about applying to becoming a physician assistant down the road. What were some of the biggest concerns, and how did you help those students to deal with those concerns as a ambassador for the program? Hannah Richard [00:15:33]: Some of the biggest concerns clearly were the application process, and this had very little to do with U M Flint and very much to do with just the standardized process of applying to PA school. So I had a lot of questions, and these students would reach out to me via email, phone call, in person events. Our program hosted showcase night. I don't know how to describe it other than that, but, oh, kind of like an open house. So I would get a lot of questions on, does this prerequisite match this prerequisite? However, that's more difficult to answer because, every undergraduate degree and prerequisite may fit U of M Flint versus a different university. So that was a huge one. I think a lot of hurdles that people were experiencing were finding clinical hours and shadowing hours. I know that COVID kinda changed the landscape of medicine in some good ways and some not so good ways. Hannah Richard [00:16:32]: So for instance, I know a lot of students struggled to find shadowing hours because the pandemic repercussions lasted for a few years or even ongoing currently. So, not a lot of offices or hospitals wanted kind of an extra student following them around potentially exposing or being exposed to COVID. So and that is something that PA programs almost all absolutely require is shadowing hours because they want to know why you want to be a PA versus a nurse practitioner or an or physician. So that was another big hurdle. And then I think other questions that we got were regarding to our experience in the program. 1 of our professors say that picking a PA program is kind of like dating, So you have to like the program, and they have to like you, which I think is a funny analogy, but it's actually absolutely true. So they wanted to know kind of what our day to day life was like, the subjects we learned, did we have a cadaver lab? Is there on campus coffee stores? And so I was more than happy to answer the dry or mundane questions as far as applications, and then I was equally as happy to tell them about my life. And did I move from Metro Detroit and or did I commute? And I was just happy to kind of share my experience here because I would have absolutely loved to talk to someone like that at any of the programs I applied to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:56]: Now one of the things you just mentioned was the fact that sometimes students are trying to determine and they are asked the question of, okay, why PA? Why not MD? Why not getting a nurse practitioner degree? You made the choice that you wanted to become a physician assistant. And through your undergraduate program, you probably could have been and could have gone the route of MD. What made you decide that PA was right for you? Hannah Richard [00:18:23]: You know, I used to have this answer down pat and memorized for applications and interviews. And now that almost 3 years have passed, I don't have a standardized answer, which is a good thing. I wanted to be a PA for a few reasons. And one of them was I was looking for a right fit for the kind of life I wanted. I wanted to be out and practicing earlier in my life rather than later. And I think physicians have great lives and great careers. However, their training is obviously longer. So not only do they have 4 years of med school after undergraduate, they have residency, which can be anywhere from 2 years to 4 years to 8 years, depending on the specialty. Hannah Richard [00:19:08]: So they wanted to be able to practice earlier. Another thing was is that I had a great experience with the PA. In college, I spent a lot of time in the athletic training room. Swimming can be hard on the body, but I was seeing a PA and I was just so intrigued. She was so knowledgeable and she spent so much time with me, and I had really never experienced anything like it. You know, your family doctor is more often than not, especially back when I was growing up in high school and college, a physician. So to have experience with this PA, I was just like taken aback. And especially when I started shadowing the PAs, I shadowed a PA who worked in orthopedic surgery and she was first assisting the surgeon in knee replacement and the hip replacement and a partial knee. Hannah Richard [00:19:53]: And I was just shocked that you can be a PA. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a physician. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a more, just like a different role. And it just fit really well for me in my life. And I at some point, you have to pick a career and you can't say this or that. You have to just start making progress towards it. And that is for all those reasons I chose to be a PA because ultimately I wanted to practice and treat patients and just provide good care. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:28]: Now as you think about people that are coming behind you, whether they're going into becoming a physician assistant or some other career area, but they're thinking about graduate school in general. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every student that is looking for ways to find success sooner in their graduate school experience? Hannah Richard [00:20:48]: That is a tough question to pinpoint it down to something that would help them to success sooner. I would have to say, continue living your life. And when I say that, I mean, when you're in graduate school, it's very easy to put the blinders on and be a graduate student. Go to class, go to lectures, go to clinicals. But another thing our professor says life does not stop just because you're in PA school. So my advice would be, go to that rec volleyball game, go to the gym with your classmates, attend volunteering events and get involved with things like becoming a graduate ambassador or anything mentoring upcoming students. I think the more you put in, the more you'll get out, and it's very easy to just put your head down, get your degree, and, you know, walk away a successful, successfully licensed PA. But the more that you put in, like I said, the more you'll get out. Hannah Richard [00:21:49]: So I think use the resources. If you need mental health counseling, take advantage of that at U of M. If you need someone to talk to, if you wanna join a club, if you wanna do anything, I say take advantage of it because once that 28 months are over, your life is And so I knew that I wanted to look back and say, say I did everything I was interested in. And that also included student society. I was a representative for our student association of the state of Michigan. So just do it all. That is my advice to find success earlier. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]: Well, Hannah, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for walking us through this path that you've been on, and I am looking forward to hearing more about your own professional journey as you move forward in your career, and I wish you all the best. Hannah Richard [00:22:39]: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. And I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and listen to my story. I always say that an attitude of gratitude is best, and I am very grateful for everything that U of M Flint has provided me. And I try to give them back everything that they have given me, including the opportunity to be a physician assistant. So thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umfluent dot eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the journey of graduate education is a significant milestone in one's life. It is a pathway filled with self-exploration, knowledge acquisition, and transformation. In the podcast episode featuring Sasha Wakefield, a high school math teacher from Clio, Michigan, her story reflects the essence of this transformative journey. With a passion for learning and a drive for success, Sasha shares insights from her educational pursuits, offering valuable lessons for aspiring graduate students. Discovering the Desire for Education Sasha's educational journey began with overcoming challenges early on in her life. As a teen mother facing uncertainties, she found her determination to pursue higher education. Starting at Mott Community College and later transferring to Ferris State University, Sasha's thirst for knowledge led her to a career in teaching. Her story exemplifies resilience and the power of pursuing one's dreams despite obstacles. Choosing the Path: Master's Degree and Beyond Sasha's decision to further her education by pursuing a master's degree at Concordia University was driven by a combination of factors. Financial considerations, program offerings, and a passion for mathematics education influenced her choice. Her dedication to paying off her student loans and gaining specialized knowledge in curriculum instruction showcased her commitment to professional growth. Exploring Educational Leadership Transitioning to an Educational Specialist Degree at the University of Michigan Flint, Sasha delved into educational leadership, broadening her perspective on the public education system. With aspirations to enhance her role as an educator and leader within the school community, Sasha embraced the opportunity to gain insights into administrative functions and community partnerships. Her choice to continue her education at UM Flint reflects her positive experiences and strong connection to the institution. Balancing Passion and Profession Sasha's success in her educational pursuits stems from her unwavering passion for teaching. Viewing education as a source of happiness and fulfillment, she emphasizes the importance of wholehearted commitment to one's goals. Sasha's dedication to continuous learning and improvement not only enriches her teaching practice but also inspires her students to discover their own passions and pursue them with vigor. Impact of Graduate Education on Teaching The knowledge and skills acquired through Sasha's master's and specialist degrees have greatly influenced her teaching practice. By integrating leadership perspectives and community engagement strategies, she has gained a deeper understanding of the education system's complexity. Through continuous reflection and application of her learning, Sasha has become a more effective educator, dedicated to enhancing student achievement and fostering a supportive learning environment. Celebrating Success: Michigan Teacher of the Year Finalist Sasha's recognition as a finalist for the Michigan Teacher of the Year Award stands as a testament to her dedication and exemplary work in the field of education. Her journey of hard work, resilience, and relentless pursuit of excellence serves as an inspiration to her students and colleagues. The accolade not only validates Sasha's commitment to education but also highlights her impact as a role model within the educational community. Embracing the Graduate School Journey Sasha's story encapsulates the essence of embarking on a graduate school journey with passion and purpose. Her experiences underscore the importance of following one's passions, embracing challenges, and committing wholeheartedly to personal and professional growth. Aspiring graduate students can glean valuable lessons from Sasha's journey, finding inspiration to navigate their own educational paths with determination and enthusiasm. Sasha Wakefield's narrative exemplifies the transformative power of education and the unwavering dedication required to succeed in the field of teaching. Her journey serves as a beacon of inspiration for individuals embarking on their own graduate education pursuits, illuminating the path towards personal and professional fulfillment. By embracing the journey with passion and perseverance, one can overcome obstacles, achieve milestones, and make a lasting impact in the realm of education.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to walk with you on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person going to graduate school, every person thinking about graduate school is going to be going on a true journey, a journey of self exploration, a journey of knowledge acquisition, a journey in so many different ways that will transform you to a brand new person. Because by the end of your graduate degree, you're going to have a lot more skills, a lot more tools in your toolbox, and you're gonna be ready to roll for whatever you want to do next. And that's why this show exists. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: This show exists to be able to give you some insights, give you insights from others that have gone before you. People that are currently going through graduate school, people that have gone through graduate school. And every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have gone on this journey themselves and can share with you some of the things that they've had to do to be able to find success in that journey. This week, we got another great guest with us. Sasha Wakefield is with us. And Sasha is a high school math teacher in Clio, Michigan. And she currently is working on an EDS, an educational specialist degree. She already has a master's degree and a bachelor's degree, an associate's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: She's one of those lifelong learners that continues her her own educational pursuits. We're gonna learn about that journey that she has gone on, but also is on currently to share that journey with you. Sasha, thanks so much for joining us today. Sasha Wakefield [00:01:55]: Sasha Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, what I would love to do is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Ferris State University. Before that, you were at Mott Community College doing your associate's degree. But then at some point in that journey, whether it was at Ferris State or after you jumped into that professional career, there was a point in time where you said to yourself, I need to go further. I need to continue my education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to take that next step and go to get a graduate degree? Sasha Wakefield [00:02:32]: I think that that journey for me started much before that, to be honest with you. I was a teen mother. I had my first child at the age of 16 years old. And I went to 6 different high schools before I finally graduated high school. I moved out on my own and I went to several alternative high schools, and I didn't even graduate high school on time. I graduated later than my peers, and I did not know if I could go to college. I was very poor, and I just decided that I needed to do that. I needed to go to college. Sasha Wakefield [00:03:11]: And I did enroll at Mott Community College and started taking classes through there. And I just wanted to be a teacher from the second I, I don't know, started college. And, from there, I truly wanted to learn everything that I could. I just felt like I was constantly trying to learn. I was curious all of the time, and I just couldn't get enough. And the beautiful piece about this is that while I was at Mott, I decided that I loved mathematics and I continued to pursue, math math courses in which I kinda ran out at Mott. And I decided to enroll at U of M to take math courses at U of M. And, Mott has a pretty good program where they have other, universities on campus. Sasha Wakefield [00:04:07]: And so I ended up getting that bachelor's degree through Ferris State University, but on the Mott Community College campus. But the majority of my math classes were at U of M, and I I truly loved the campus at U of M. I loved everyone in the admissions department. They really worked with me as a transfer student. I was working full time during the day. At that time, I was a mother of 2, so I was working full time during the day, and then I was taking college classes at night. And then from there, when I was able to graduate, I did take about 7 years before I decided that I was gonna go back for my masters. And I think those 7 years are just kind of getting on your feet. Sasha Wakefield [00:04:49]: For myself, it was getting on my feet, kind of establishing a salary and teaching. And my kids were very active then in sports. And so about 7 years later, I was like, oh, alright. It's time. It's time because I missed it. And and I love that part about myself. You know, as a young mother, you're constantly, like, giving to kids. But I think that that is also a little hobby of mine. Sasha Wakefield [00:05:10]: I just really enjoy learning. So that was that little bit of I need to go further because I enjoy it. But also as well, it gives an opportunity for me to talk to like minded individuals who also enjoy talking about education, who also enjoy learning and collaborating at that level. So I think that was, for me, another reason to to go back and get my master's degree. And then just recently, just this past year, I just said, okay. I'll miss it again. I think I'm always gonna miss it. I I could be a lifelong college student maybe. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]: So you had originally decided to go to get your master's degree at Concordia University. You got your master's degree from Concordia. There are many different schools that are out there that you probably could have selected for a master's degree. Talk to me about that thought process as you were going through deciding not only that you were going to graduate school, but where you wanted to attend, and what ultimately made you decide that Concordia was the place where you wanted to go for that master's degree? Sasha Wakefield [00:06:17]: Great question. I think the choices that I made as a young adult, I didn't realize it at the time, but they did shape the trajectory of my life. And having a child so young really forced me to have to make some decisions where finance was really important. So I looked at different schools to go to for a master's degree and Concordia was on the least expensive side and it was from home. I could do it virtually, which is before virtual was super popular. And so that really worked out for me. The ease that fit into my schedule and financial as well. I had already had some student loans for my undergrad, and I just didn't wanna take anymore. Sasha Wakefield [00:07:04]: I wanted to pay it out of pocket and I only had certain amount saved up. So that was really that decision. They also had a great program at the time for the curriculum instruction. So I had a focus in mathematics education with curriculum, and I was very interested in that field at the time. So kind of all of that put together was like a little bit of a perfect fit for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:29]: And as you mentioned just a little bit ago, you now are in an educational specialist degree, and you chose to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that degree. Again, there's other EDS programs that are out there. Talk to me about that process as you decided that you were itching to get back into education again and to continue to learn in different ways. And as you were making that decision to go not only to the EDS, but first, I guess, first and foremost, why the EDS versus just jumping right to a a PhD or an EDD versus and then why the University of Michigan Flint? Sasha Wakefield [00:08:04]: I remember the great memories that I had at U of M with the undergrad. I remember the staff. I remember doctor Bix. I remember professor Schilling. I remember being a transfer student, but yet feeling so accepted as if my degree was coming from U of M. The department of the financial aid department, they were pretty awesome. And I just remember everyone just being so kind and so nice. So those fun feelings carried on. Sasha Wakefield [00:08:32]: It just seemed natural. I've just been all over that campus with those math courses and a couple of the courses that I'd taken at U of M. It just felt comfortable. For the EDS, to be honest, I could have jumped into a PhD, but I think it was those fond memories that I had with U of M Flint, specifically, that I looked at their graduate program and I was, like, alright. They have an educational specialist. I'm interested in that. So it kinda worked out that way. I'm really grateful for U of M Flint. Sasha Wakefield [00:09:02]: They have made the process for me to continue my education. It's almost seamless in a way that it just feels so accepting, like you're just you're meant to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:13]: Now you've gone through a master's. You're in a specialist degree right now. You're doing quite well in all of your studies here, but also in the past, you were successful in that journey. So talk to me about as you made those transitions, the transition to your masters, the transition to your specialist, each of those transitions are true transitions. You have to be able to not only master's degree to a specialist degree, again, you're being taught in a different way. You're being there's different expectations. So talk to me about what you've had to do currently or in the past to help you to find success, what you had to do to be able to set yourself up at the beginning of those educational opportunities, but also what you had to do throughout the time that you've been in these degrees to help you maintain that success throughout the journey? Sasha Wakefield [00:10:10]: I believe that you will be successful if you want it. I want it that bad. I want it that much. I don't half want it. I didn't half I don't kinda want my master's degree. I kinda want it. I'm all in, and that's just the type of person that I I am. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to give a 100% of myself. Sasha Wakefield [00:10:35]: I don't ever say I'm going to do something and then I just kinda do it. Because at the end of the day and I put my head on the pillow and am I proud of myself? Yes or no? I really would like people to follow their path and whatever makes them happy. And education makes me insanely happy. So much so that I'm just so passionate and I'm so driven that it helps me with my success because it's all I kind of think about. I do have hobbies. I do. But it's when you find something that you truly enjoy, then you just, at ease, just put the effort into it. And I just feel very fortunate that I was able to find that. Sasha Wakefield [00:11:18]: I found that at a young age, and I tell my own students that. I just want you to find something that you're passionate in because then it just will start naturally being a part of who you are. So I was very fortunate. I didn't have to make any huge sacrifices because it's like, oh, I got this 10 page paper due. No. It's like, I'm already on it. I love this paper. I have already researched this. Sasha Wakefield [00:11:42]: I'm excited to put my thoughts on paper and share my ideas with other colleagues. And just that excitement is what I hope that everyone is able to find in their own life, whatever that may be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:54]: Now you finished the master's degree. You're in the specialist degree. You're learning new things. And I guess as you look back at your master's degree in what you're doing today, but also your specialist degree in the courses that you've taken thus far, how are you finding that what you have learned through your graduate degree, your master's degree that you already have completed, and also the coursework that you finished are showing up in the work that you do on a daily basis? Sasha Wakefield [00:12:20]: I think it gives gives me currently right now a greater perspective of education. So currently, in the educational specialist, you receive a a central office endorsement and administrator certificate. And so I'm kind of seeing public education in the lens that I've never looked before. So I've I've only really looked at it from a teacher's perspective. And then with my master's, it was like, alright. How can I become a better teacher? And that was how I was looking at with my master's. But with the educational specialist, completely different view from the leadership that I don't really have a whole lot of experience in. And so I'm very curious on what that looks like in terms of community partnership. Sasha Wakefield [00:13:08]: And as a leader in a building potentially, changes my perspective too because it just opens up to not the complexity, but the different roles that are within a school district and what those responsibilities are with each role. And then with anything, I mean, once you have a greater understanding of the way something works and you have a greater understanding of kind of the whole big picture. And I'm able to just kinda take a step back and see the public school district as one whole entity instead of just my small view as a teacher. And that's just so powerful too because it really helps me understand maybe some of the decisions that are made that, from a teacher's view, you're like, oh, I don't really understand that. But maybe as an educational leader, you're like, okay. That's kind of the reason why. So that's also, a neat, I don't know, perspective, I guess, to see that I've been able to take with me so far. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: Now one of the other things that I haven't mentioned is you are a finalist for the Michigan Teacher of the Year Award. And congratulations. That is amazing. And I guess as you look back at at what you have learned along the way, and you just talked about how you're incorporating some of that learning, how does does that graduate work make you a better teacher? And how has that allowed for you to be able to be at the place that you are right now to help you to be considered for being the Michigan teacher of the year? Sasha Wakefield [00:14:48]: I think with every experience that we have, we choose to take small nuggets of each of them, And I believe that that's what I've been able to do successfully. With each professional development, with each professor that I sit in front of, I do my best to try to grab every little piece and kinda try to, in my mind, apply it to my everyday. Think about what will make that how I will make that into a better teacher, better for my students. I'm constantly wanting to think about how do I increase student achievement. What can I do to listen to students more? Yeah. I guess, gosh, everything. It's like the worst answer ever, but it truly is. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: And I have to ask because not there's so few individual teachers that do get this recognition to be even considered as a not only a regional award winner, but as the Michigan Teacher of the Year. What does that mean to you in the work that you have done to to get you to where you are today? And what does this recognition mean to you? Sasha Wakefield [00:15:57]: It means everything. Everything. First, I love that it gives me the opportunity to have a voice for all the amazing teachers that I have come encounter with and that I haven't met yet. And I I think that that is just a truly a great honor to be able to have that opportunity. When I received the phone call that I was the regional teacher of the year, region 5 for the 24, 25 year, I instantly sobbed. And that was a moment that I will not forget. And I've thought about this process constantly because I always will look at any situation and I'll say, alright. How can I improve? What else could I have done differently? What can I do differently? What am I proud of myself on, and then what can I improve on? And I've shared this journey with my students. Sasha Wakefield [00:16:58]: I think that that's the best way for students to learn is for them to see through someone else's, like, their shoes, which is basically this podcast. Right? You're kinda sharing your story, and I share it with my students. And I remember telling them before that last round for the Michigan Teacher of the Year, the process that I did. It was Monday, Monday morning. And I said, hey, guys. Hope you had a good weekend. And I was like, oh, yeah. What'd you guys do? And then they asked me what I did, and I said, well, on Friday, I said goodbye to you. Sasha Wakefield [00:17:31]: And I went home and I got on my computer, and I worked until I went to bed at about 11 o'clock at night. And then I woke up the next morning pretty early, poured myself a cup of coffee, and I worked on the computer until 11 o'clock at night. And I did not stop. And then I woke up the next day on Sunday and I worked, same, until about 5 o'clock. And I took a deep breath and I walked away from the computer and I was done. And it was final with what I wanted to submit for the last round for the Michigan teacher of the year. And I shared that, and they're like, what? What? You did not. And I was like, yes, I did. Sasha Wakefield [00:18:06]: Absolutely, I did. And they're like, what if you did all that for nothing? Like, what if you just they tell you you didn't make it to the next round. You just did all of that for nothing. And I said, no. I didn't. I wanted it that bad, and I was gonna give the best that I could of myself. And they're like, yeah. But you just might not get it. Sasha Wakefield [00:18:23]: And I said, that's okay. I'm gonna be proud of myself because I gave it everything that I got. And that's what you do in life. If you really really hard for it. And if I don't get the next round, I'm I'm just really proud of the work that I have done. And so it was kinda cool because then I was like, hey, guys. Guess what? Guess what that hard work? And they're like, you got it. And I was like, I did. Sasha Wakefield [00:18:45]: And so that was just really cool to share those moments with them so they can kind of see someone kind of going through that struggle and what they're going through. And, definitely, I would've shared it instantly. Nope, guys. I didn't get it, but I'm pretty proud of myself. Do you guys wanna see what I did and what I submitted? And just sharing that along the way? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: So as you think about other students, other people that are thinking about graduate school, maybe they're in graduate school and they're working their way through and trying to figure out this whole journey for themselves. As you look back to your own experience and you think about what you had to do, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Sasha Wakefield [00:19:25]: I would give them the same advice I give my own adult children is I would want them to follow what makes them happy. I want them to follow their passion. And if you wanna go to graduate to get a better job, make sure it's the job that you're gonna fall in love with, that you really want. If you're unsure, research. Put yourself in those shoes of those individuals who have that degree. Would you love that job? And once you find what you really love, then that that's a whole game changer. And then with graduate school, because you know that you're gonna really enjoy it, that's when it becomes fun. That's when it doesn't become work and tedious. Sasha Wakefield [00:20:10]: Oh, I gotta get this done. It's more like I wanna get this done because I'm interested in it. I'm interested what this assignment is about. I'm excited what it's what it's gonna teach me, what I'm gonna learn from it. And so I really want individuals, when they're thinking about graduate school to think about would I would I really enjoy that path? And then if that answer is yes, then definitely do it. If you're unsure, test the waters and and see what you like and what you don't like. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:36]: Well, Sasha, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own experiences, for sharing your journey. And I'm looking forward to hearing what happens with the Michigan teacher of the year. And no matter what the outcome is, you're doing amazing things in your district. You're doing amazing things in your own education, and you're being a great role model for your own kids. Not only the kids that live may live with you or maybe they're outside of the house, but also the kids that you impact day to day within your schools. So thank you for being that role model for others. Thank you for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best. Sasha Wakefield [00:21:13]: Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit flint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on a journey through graduate school can be both challenging and rewarding. In a recent podcast episode of  Victors in Grad School, Jennifer Phillips, a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint's MBA program, shared her personal journey and the lessons she learned along the way. Her experiences offer valuable insights for current and prospective graduate students seeking to navigate the path to success. Setting Yourself Up for Success: Jennifer's decision to pursue a graduate degree was fueled by her passion for lifelong learning. Despite being a full-time working mom with family obligations, she found the flexibility of online classes at the University of Michigan Flint to be a key factor in her decision. By carefully managing her time and balancing her priorities, Jennifer was able to embark on her graduate school journey with determination and focus. Choosing the Right Program and Institution: When it came to choosing the Master of Business Administration program at the University of Michigan Flint, Jennifer considered a variety of factors. The program's flexibility, convenience, affordability, and alignment with her entrepreneurial aspirations played a crucial role in her decision-making process. By selecting a program that resonated with her goals and values, Jennifer set herself up for success from the outset. Overcoming Challenges and Seeking Support: As Jennifer progressed through her MBA program, she encountered obstacles and moments of self-doubt. However, her willingness to reach out for support and guidance proved to be pivotal in overcoming these challenges. By seeking advice from faculty, taking a semester off when needed, and relying on her support system, Jennifer was able to navigate difficult times and stay on track towards completing her degree. The Power of Continuous Learning: Reflecting on her graduate education, Jennifer emphasizes the invaluable skills and knowledge she acquired during her MBA program. These insights not only enhanced her professional capabilities but also opened up new possibilities for her future endeavors. By embracing a mindset of continuous learning and growth, Jennifer is well-equipped to pursue her entrepreneurial aspirations and thrive in her professional life. Tips for Prospective Graduate Students: Drawing from her own experiences, Jennifer offers practical advice for individuals considering graduate school. She encourages prospective students to overcome self-doubt, take the first step towards their educational goals, and approach their journey one step at a time. By emphasizing the value of investing in oneself and seizing opportunities for growth, Jennifer inspires others to pursue their academic aspirations with confidence and determination. Jennifer Phillips's journey through graduate school serves as a testament to the resilience, dedication, and passion required to succeed in academic pursuits. Her story illuminates the importance of perseverance, self-care, and seeking support during challenging times. By following her example and embracing the value of lifelong learning, current and prospective graduate students can chart a course towards academic and professional success. In the end, Jennifer's insights remind us that the journey through graduate school is not just about obtaining a degree but about personal growth, professional development, and the enduring pursuit of knowledge and excellence.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week as always, we are on a journey together. I love being able to talk to you every week as I know that you are on your own journey, your own journey of going into through and looking at the end of graduate school. But as you're looking at all of that, hopefully, one of the things that you're thinking about is what you can do to be successful in this journey because it does take effort. It takes time, and it takes a lot of forethought to make sure that you're doing what you can to be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: And there are things that you can do right today that'll set yourself up on the right foot to be able to help you to find that success. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to be able to see different ways, different things that you can do to be able to be successful in this journey that you're on. In every week, I love being able to bring you different people, people that have gone before you, that have decided to to go to graduate school, gone through graduate school and have found success. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Jennifer Phillips is with us and Jennifer did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, got a bachelor of applied sciences and economics, and then a few years later made a decision to go back to school and get that master of business administration degree also at the University of Michigan Flint. So we're gonna be talking to her about her own journey and what she learned along that path. And I'm really excited to have her here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: Jennifer, thanks so much for being here today. Jennifer Phillips [00:02:09]: Thank you for having me, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to people about the journeys that they have gone through. And what I would love to do is is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna go all the way back to your undergraduate days first, and let's talk about as you're going through that degree, then you left your undergraduate work, went back into the work world after completing off that degree. And I know you did you did work while you were going through your undergrad as well and had that experience. But at some point you made a decision to continue with your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to get that graduate degree? Jennifer Phillips [00:02:50]: So for me, the reason that I chose grad school was because I consider myself a lifelong learner. Ever since I was young, I felt that I would always go on and work my way through graduate school. And for me, my life, you know, took turns in different directions. And I was a working mom, full time mom when I got my undergrad degree. And for me starting grad school, there was a gap between my undergrad and my graduate degree because of having the young kids at home and having to help them with their studies. I needed to know that I had time for my own studies so that I could be successful. So I was excited to be able to start when I did start and the flexibility that's offered by grad school, being able to take the classes on my own time online, most of them I could schedule around my own schedule and family obligations and work. I figured I would make a go of it, and I'm glad that I started. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]: So when you did decide to go back to grad school, you decided to get a master's of business administration, and you decided to get that at the University of Michigan Flint. There are many different schools, many different programs that are out there. Talk to me about the decision making that you went through when you did make that decision to go back to graduate school and what was going through your head in regard to why the Master of Business Administration? But 2, why the business administration, but 2, why the University of Michigan Flint? Jennifer Phillips [00:04:17]: Prior to working at the university where I am employed currently, I was an entrepreneur myself and I see myself going back into that maybe when I'm retired, getting into entrepreneurial aspirations that I have. U of M Flint, I chose U of M as my alma mater. I've began classes right out of high school actually and returned decades later. And I have a special place in my heart for U of M Flint. When I looked at the offerings for the MBA, it was something that I could do. It was flexible. There were some evening classes, and just the setup of it was great for me. The convenience was perfect for me. Jennifer Phillips [00:04:56]: The affordability, the university invests in their own, and they made it an easy choice for me. The flexibility, as I said, in the scheduling worked for me. And those are the reasons I chose U of M Flint. I wanna see Flint be successful and U of M is a bright spot in the city of Flint. And so I'm happy to to be able to support as a student and to earn my graduate degree there as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:18]: Now I know that there was a couple of years between when you got your undergraduate degree when you went back for your graduate degree. And anytime that you make a transition from different degrees from different levels of degrees, there's different ways in which you're educated. And there's a transition that you have to go through to be able to find success in that journey for yourself. You did get through your degree, you finished off your MBA, so you found success in that journey. As you think back to the beginning of your graduate degree and that transition back into school after being out for a little bit of time, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout your graduate school journey Jennifer Phillips [00:06:07]: to revisit kind of what I let into in the beginning for me, I did want to continue right away with my education, but I knew that I had to put my family first. My kids were young at the time. My youngest son, it was once he finally finished 6th grade that he was then independent and able to manage his homework with very little help from me where I knew that then I would have the free time. So I actually kinda hung around the flagpole. I stayed close to the graduate programs during those years, would put visit the open houses that you'd have and things just to let you know that I'm here and I'm coming and was just waiting for the right time. So for myself, as I said, I, you know, working full time is kids in school, had a husband, a family, school sports, things like that, taking my time. I decided to go to school part time to work it in around all of that. So it took me 4 years to get my degree and that was my choice so that I could have the work life balance. Jennifer Phillips [00:07:01]: And that worked well for me to maintain. I took it seriously. I set aside the time. I sacrificed my evenings and some sleep for studying every semester that began, I'd get my syllabus and set out my calendar so I could see when my due dates were so that I knew that I would make all the deadlines for my assignments and exams. And that just helped me to chart out a path throughout the semester. I had a lot of family support. My family was in my court. My classmates were my gym buddies. Jennifer Phillips [00:07:30]: You know, they kept me going when I feel like I was browning a little bit throughout the semesters. My colleagues and friends encouraged. There was just really a really great support system that I had, and I'm grateful for that. But I am also personally driven and I make my commitments and I succeed at them. I did well in the courses. I did have one tough semester, I'll tell you, Chris, and I felt like quitting. I had actually gone full time that semester and I never did that again with working full time and going. It was tough. Jennifer Phillips [00:07:58]: But I felt like quitting. And I but I reached out to my professors, and I did talk to the dean. And they just said, you know, take a semester off, just regroup and come back. And that was right during the pandemic, in fact. And I'm so grateful that I did that and that I listened to them because I took the the ones the next semester off. And then when I came back, it was smoother sailing after that. So I guess for success, the way to maintain is just keep going. Just keep going. Jennifer Phillips [00:08:25]: Reach out if you're drowning. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:26]: Makes me think of Dory from Finding Nemo as she just keeps swimming. And definitely there are times where you have to do that. And I appreciate that you said that you did reach out and you asked those questions. And talk to me about what was the response that you got when you did reach out to your faculty, when you did reach out to the people within your program for that support, what was their response back in regard to providing you with resources or tools or things that could help you to get through that term even though you were hitting that proverbial wall that was more difficult during that specific term? Jennifer Phillips [00:09:04]: I think mostly it was, as I said, that was at the beginning of the pandemic. It was the spring semester in 2020. And I think there was just an awful lot going on at that time, right? We were washing our groceries and it was just a really scary time. And so the advice that I got from the dean was, who was also my instructor, was just take some time off, just take a break and regroup and come back. I felt like I was doing horribly. I think I'd gotten a c on an exam. I've never gotten a c on an exam before. And he assured me that that was nothing to be concerned about. Jennifer Phillips [00:09:38]: And I think that I was right in there with the realm of others in the course. But, you know, I did better from there moving forward. It was my first exam in that semester. And so once you see the first one, you kind of know how to prepare for the next one. And so that's what I did was I just changed up my study habits and found different path to prepare in that particular course and took that semester off, got some R and R, came back with a fresh mind in the fall. And and I said, reached out to my colleagues and they said, you got this. You're doing great. And I did great. Jennifer Phillips [00:10:09]: I graduated with a 3.9. I think I did okay. That didn't hurt me too bad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:15]: No. It definitely doesn't. And, you know, and I think that that one thing there just that everyone should understand is that you can have a bump in the road and that one bump in the road isn't going to make or break your experience going through graduate school. Now, if you have multiple bumps in the road, that can be more of an issue. And as you're hitting those bumps along the way, what Jennifer said is so important, which is reach out, ask for help. Don't push through thinking that you're doing things in the right way if you truly are lost. Because the more that you can ask for help when you truly need it, that there may be resources, may be assistance, may be other things that a faculty can offer you, that the program can offer you, that the university can offer you, that may be able to set things up to help you along the way as well. You just don't want to go so far down the path that you can't fix the issue as it's going on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: And that's really important. Jennifer Phillips [00:11:18]: I would agree to that wholeheartedly. And I tell my kids this as well, start the semester strong. And I think that's part of the reason that that early c hit me so hard because that's what I tell them. It's so much easier. You don't know what's coming as the semester goes on. So if you set yourself up strong in the beginning, then if something happens, there's a definite family, which happened to me one semester in my undergrad. You can recover from it more easily if you come out of the gate strong. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:44]: Now you've completed, as I mentioned, your MBA a few years back. You were in professional life throughout the entire time, but you're continuing with your professional journey. As you look at the work that you do on a daily basis, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do? Jennifer Phillips [00:12:00]: That's a great question. And and I'll tell you, Chris, I, there were many, many classes where I gleaned some excellent skills and tips and tricks that benefited me in my workplace. And I shared that with my colleagues, with my director, the things that I learned, those little handy little tricks and tips and things that I didn't know were beneficial to me along the way. I feel like my MBA degree has set me up to go anywhere I choose. And I'm really excited too that I made that step to get that degree because of the possibilities that would be afforded to somebody with a graduate degree versus someone without. You know, my kids would say, what were you gonna do with your degree, mom? And I say, you know, I don't know. I don't really know where all my future is gonna take me, but I've planted the seeds and prepared my fields for rain. That's how I tell them. Jennifer Phillips [00:12:51]: I say, you know, any investment we make in ourselves, it's nothing but good. And we don't know what lies ahead, but I look forward to, you know, with expectant faith for where my degree may take me. As I said, I have entrepreneurial aspirations and that's one of the things that I did take an entrepreneurial course in my grad program. It was excellent. And I'm looking forward to maybe in my retirement years when I have a little more time picking up, you know, and just doing something a little part time. I don't see myself as ever stopping the workplace. I love working. I love learning, and I love being out in the community. Jennifer Phillips [00:13:25]: But I think that the things that I learned in my master of business administration courses will really help me the 2nd time through as an entrepreneur. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: As you look back at your graduate education, getting that MBA, and you think about other students that are looking at graduate school now, whether it be in the MBA, whether it be in I know you work with physical therapy students in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint, no matter who they are, what are some tips that you might offer students, prospective students, people that are considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner? Jennifer Phillips [00:13:59]: So for me, I had concerns myself. When I was considering I'm not a spring chicken. I'm not the youngest person in the room, and I felt like I was maybe too old to go to school. And and so I was pondering, you know, should I even start this? And I talked to a colleague and I said, gosh. When I'm done, I'm gonna be, you know, a 100 years old. And she says, but you're gonna be a 100 years old anyway. She said, this way, you'll be a 100 and you'll have your man MBA. And I guess I thought about that and I thought, you know, she's right. Jennifer Phillips [00:14:31]: And when you look back, the years go by so fast. I mean, I look back 10, 20 years has gone by like a couple of months, it feels like some days. And so I know that this time that I invest in myself, whether it's 2 years or 4 years or some of our programs you can whip through in a year, that that it's gonna go by quickly. That time really does go by fast. And we really just need to take a step. Just take that first step. Look at it one class at a time, one semester at a time. And I'll tell you, I've just never heard anyone, Chris, say to me, I've never heard anyone say that they've regretted going back to school and earning that graduate degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that and sharing your own journey today, Jennifer. I do appreciate. I know that it is a continuum. And as you said, you love having the opportunity to continuously learn and grow. I mean, graduate school does that, but your professional life does that and you have to push yourself to do that throughout your entire career. Now, I truly appreciate you sharing that and I wish you all the best. Jennifer Phillips [00:15:34]: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:36]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be a transformative experience, especially for first-generation students of color. In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis engages with Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia and Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu, coauthors of "Is Grad School For Me," to delve into their personal narratives and invaluable advice for students considering graduate school. Their shared wisdom offers valuable insights into decision-making, overcoming imposter syndrome, the importance of community, and advocating for underrepresented students in academia. Motivations for Pursuing Graduate School: Dr. Chavez-Garcia and Dr. Martinez-Vu unpack their motivations for pursuing graduate education, shedding light on the unique paths that led them to academia. As first-generation students of color, their journeys were marked by a sense of duty and passion for uncovering untold histories. Despite facing challenges and traumatic events, such as surviving a life-threatening accident, their resilience and determination propelled them towards graduate school. Navigating the Transition to Graduate School: The transition from undergraduate to graduate school is a pivotal moment in a student's academic career. Dr. Martinez-Vu's experience of becoming a mother during her time in graduate school underscores the intersection of personal and academic challenges that students may face. Dr. Chavez-Garcia's decision to pursue a PhD in 19th-century Mexican American history reflects the influence of mentors and the pursuit of academic passion. Imposter Syndrome and Strategies for Empowerment: Imposter syndrome, a common hurdle in academia, is discussed with insightful strategies for overcoming it. Dr. Martinez-Vu and Dr. Chavez-Garcia emphasize the importance of self-affirmation, building supportive communities, and embracing compassion as tools to combat feelings of inadequacy. Their emphasis on empowerment through femtorship, a holistic mentoring approach rooted in intersectional feminism, highlights the transformative power of supportive networks. Advocacy for Underrepresented Students: The hosts delve into the historical context of affirmative action and its impact on underrepresented students in academia. Dr. Chavez-Garcia advocates for alternative programs, such as McNair and Mellon May's initiatives, to provide tailored support for marginalized communities. Dr. Martinez-Vu underscores the need for intentional preparation and the creation of inclusive spaces for students of color in graduate education. Making Informed Decisions: Choosing the right graduate school offer is a pivotal decision that requires thoughtful consideration. Dr. Martinez-Vu's advice on identifying nonnegotiables, evaluating funding offers, and engaging with graduate students and professors offers a practical roadmap for decision-making. Dr. Chavez-Garcia highlights the importance of considering the institution's culture and community support in the decision-making process. In navigating the complexities of graduate school, the voices of Dr. Chavez-Garcia and Dr. Martinez-Vu serve as beacons of guidance and inspiration. Their commitment to empowering underrepresented students, creating inclusive spaces, and sharing their personal narratives exemplifies the transformative potential of academia. As first-generation students of color, their stories illuminate the power of resilience, community, and advocacy in shaping a path towards success in graduate education.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are going through this journey that you're on. And I say journey because it is a journey. Grad school is not a point in time. It is a process. It is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:37]: And no matter if you are at the beginning of that journey and you're just starting to have that inkling in your mind that you may want to jump down this pathway toward getting a graduate degree in some area, or if you're in grad school and you're working through the challenges and working through all of the fun aspects of going through graduate school or if that light is coming up at the end of the tunnel and you're seeing that and you're figuring out, okay, what's next? And what do I need to do to be able to get to that next point in my career, in my life, as I transition out of grad school? Every week, I love being able to talk about these different issues because it takes time, it takes effort to find success in that journey. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share with you the journeys that they went on, but also be able to give you some resources, provide you with some insights and some other perspectives to help you as you go through this journey yourself. And today, we got 2 great guests with us, doctor Miroslava Chavez Garcia and doctor Yvette Martinez are both with us today. We're gonna talk about their own journey that they both went through in graduate school, but we're also gonna talk about a a brand new resource that I'm gonna share with you today called the Grad School Fentering, And we're gonna talk about that as well because it's another great resource for you as you are going through this journey yourself. Miros, Yvette, thank you so much for being with us today. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:02:08]: Thank you so much for having us. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:02:10]: Yes. Thank you for having us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: You know, one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is having the power to turn the clock back in time. Wouldn't we all love to do that sometimes? But I would love to turn the clock back. And I'd love for both of you to take me back to that point, that point in your own graduate school journey where you said to yourself, you know what? I think I need to take that next step. What was that point for yourself? Why did you decide that you wanted to take that next step and go to graduate school? Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:02:42]: I'm happy to get started. This is Yvette Martinez Vu speaking. And, you know, one of the reasons why we decided we wanted to come on the show is because doctor Miroslava Chavez Garcia and I recently coauthored a book called Is Grad School For Me, demystifying the application process for 1st gen BIPOC students. And in the introduction of that book, we both tell our grad school journeys and what we both have in common. And I'll speak for myself that my experience was I felt like the decision to go to graduate school was actually made for me. In that, I was someone who was 1st gen in college. I'm Chicana. I came in as an English major. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:03:25]: 1st in my family, I didn't know what I was doing. I was I was like, okay. English sounds interesting. I was a theater minor. I had been in productions acting for most of my youth. And folks kept telling me that you're not gonna make a living out of acting. So what's the next best thing? I discovered undergraduate research at the time I was at UCLA, and that was what was encouraged. I found out about this brand new program on campus called the Mellon Mays Undergraduate Research Fellowship. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:03:54]: I applied. I got in, and I was one of 5 inaugural individuals. We were part of the first cohort there. And I felt that pressure because the program is meant to help support underrepresented students in diversifying academia. I felt the pressure of, oh, now I have to apply to graduate school, and now I have to become a professor. That's why I felt like I had no other option. I also felt like I had no other option given my circumstances as someone from a low income family raised by a single immigrant mom who she's a mom of 6. I didn't feel like I had space to go back home after college. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:04:31]: Some of my peers were going home, getting part time, full time jobs. It was, you know, during the time of the 2008 recession where folks were struggling to figure out how to get a job right after their bachelor's degree. And I thought to myself, it's safer for me to go straight to graduate school, keep doing what I'm doing, what I've been told that I'm good at, and make a living even if it's not much of a living to be able to still pay my bills. And that's what landed me in graduate school, and that's how I arrived. I can talk more about the graduate school experience, but that's a whole other journey because I'm now someone who is outside of higher ed, still supporting folks in higher ed, but I didn't end up landing that tenure track job that a lot of folks dream of. And it was because of an intentional set of pivots on my end. So I'm happy to pass the baton over to Mira so she could share more about her story. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:05:28]: Great. Thanks, Yvette. I love hearing Yvette's story all the time. I never get tired of it. It's so inspirational to me. I think we share a lot of experiences and that that is certainly what drew us to a very productive and I would say, very rewarding relationship in terms of our professional and also somewhat of course, that leads into the personal area, but being able to put this project together as book together. And we also worked together professionally at UC Santa Barbara, in the McNair Scholars Program. But I want to say for me, I think equally so mine wasn't like I wasn't in a Mellon Mays program, because when I went to grad school was like a couple decades before he vetted and we didn't have melon maze. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:06:06]: There was no McNair to speak of those hadn't yet thought of. We didn't even know what first gen meant or within the context that we do now. So certainly, when I was in college, I was a 1st generation low income underrepresented student, Chicana, Latina, Mexican American from the barrio and never was at UCLA or stepped, you know, went to UCLA grad school from San Jose in Nevada, which I grew up. And so coming to UCLA, I was stunned, cluster shock, for sure. And so I think for me, the thought of grad school hadn't at all been on my radar, and we barely even call it going to the university was something that kind of like, oh, I guess I'll do this. And so when I got to undergrad, it really happened in my 4th to my 5th year when I took a summer program. There was a summer program available for minority students. And so I participate in that, and that gave me sort of a small taste for research and in history in particular. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:06:52]: And I was really interested in recovering these histories that had not been told. And so just bringing back that sort of really important aspect of our history, Mexican American, Chicana, Chicano history, and ethnic history, and just in general that had been told. So that was kind of a little bit of my interest, my sort of moment there, I thought like, maybe this I had no idea what grad school was right when in there, keep saying like with blinders to some extent, certainly I had community and all kinds of support. That wouldn't have been possible without me being able to go through the process. But I think that moment when I decided, let's pursue grad school, I didn't really think as I think same same similar to as Yvette has said, I didn't really think I had other options. I thought like, do I go back home, I didn't really have a home anymore, per se. I was raised by my aunt and uncle. My parents died in a car accident when I was 12 years old. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:07:37]: So it was just my brother and I who survived the accident. We were the only siblings anyways in the family. And my grandmother also passed in the accident that we had. So it was pretty traumatic. And my aunt uncle did were wonderful people who raised us as to the best of their ability. And when we we stayed in the same town where I grew up, so we were there. But you know, when I after college, I thought I can't go back there. I mean, I love them, they'd probably be welcome me. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:08:02]: Maybe we had a very tiny home, they had 2 daughters, and they had their own lives to lead and also poor neighborhood and so forth. So I just thought, well, I needed you know, I have been in college by my on my own, and I felt very independent, and so that wasn't really an option. I just thought, like, well, let me go. It's sort of like if I knew then what I know now, I probably I'm not sure. I think I wouldn't have done it. There's different means, similar ends, but definitely, I was sort of took the plunge without quite knowing maybe that was a good thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:26]: So both of you went through a process by which, as you said, both said, you didn't really think about grad school until later on, and you were pushed into it in many different ways. And you both chose your own paths. You both chose your own educational paths, your schools that you wanted to attend. As you were considering graduate school, when you got to that point where you decided that you wanted to go to graduate school, I'm sure that there were a number of different opportunities in front of you that you could have gone and studied at or decided to become a part of, but you chose a specific path in a specific school. Talk to me about what was going through each of your minds as you were making that final decision? And what was the tipping point for each of you on the program and the school that you ultimately chose? Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:09:24]: Once again, I feel like I had no other option. Let me say what happened in my case. At the time, I apply when I applied to graduate school, it was the beginning of my senior year in college. It was my 4th year. I had a year of a little less than a year of research experience under my belt, and I decided, okay. I'm gonna apply to a combination of master's programs and PhD programs. 4 and 4. 8, for some reason, it was a random number that sounded good to me. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:09:52]: It's a nice even number. And I ended up getting into 2 masters programs and 1 PhD program. I did make the decision to pivot from English literature to theater and performance studies as a PhD. So that was a transition, and, therefore, I didn't know anybody in that department at my campus at UCLA, but I applied there for the PhD, and that's where I got in. And, ultimately, it was a decision of that had to do with finances, with location, and, really, that's about it. If I could go back in time, there would have been a lot of other things that I would have considered. I would have especially played more of an emphasis on the importance of finding a really solid, supportive mentor, adviser, chair of my dissertation. I did not look into that. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:10:45]: Instead, I thought I got a full funding package. I'm gonna be here for at least 4 years. I'm close to home. Of course, it's a it's a yes. When I I once again, just to say to reiterate, I did not realize that there were so many other things to consider when making a a decision aside from location and finances. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:11:06]: Yeah. So for me, somewhat similar in that. Again, I was definitely didn't know what I was doing at the time. I had a taste for research. I did have a supportive mentor, And the idea of working with him and doing a project on the 19th century is what what was fascinating and because there was very little research done in Mexican American history in the 19th century, especially on women, that was my interest to sort of go in there and tell it like it is right. This is what we were very ambitious when we're grad students, but that's good. But when so I only applied to 5 schools. Nobody told me to think of how many. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:11:38]: I didn't have a you know, again, had no direction. I just applied. And, of course, it was a top school. So I think it was, like, Yale. I can't remember what else. Stanford, UC San Diego, and these other schools, and UCLA where I was already an undergrad. And that personal relationship I had with that mentor made that so that's the only school I got into essentially. So it was he he was able to open the door for me to go in and also provide a 1 year of funding. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:11:58]: And because of affirmative action programs at the time, I was able to get a 4 year package after that. After my first year, I was able to so that provided quite a bit of stability in terms of funding. So that made it possible for me to go into this. What seemed like an exciting one, and we have no idea. Right? I think should have had practice like shadowing professors to see what life is really like. Because it's a it's a different lifestyle. I wouldn't say I could say challenging for some people. Definitely. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:12:22]: I tell people give them little tips of what is involved. But for me, I also got that 1 year funding. I didn't really consider other options of what to do. Of course, now I know that having research skills, you can do many things. I did look at law school, I looked at the catalog and looked at the courses, and they just seemed so boring. I thought, like, God, I don't wanna do that. I just knew it. So I wanted to be able to read in research. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:12:41]: The research part, I think, has always been my drive. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:44]: Now every student that goes into graduate programs, whether it be master's degrees, doctorate degrees, law school, whatever it is, there is a transition. There's a transition from undergrad into grad school, just in general about how you're educated, but there's so many other transitions that you go through as well. Talk to me about the transitions that each of you had to go through to be able to make that switch from undergrad to grad student, and what you had to do to set yourself up for success at the beginning of the journey, and what you had to do throughout the journey to maintain that success for yourself. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:13:24]: When I got in and I said yes, because I was switching departments and disciplines, I thought to myself, oh my goodness. They made a mistake. And now I have to play catch up. And I spent all summer trying to read all these foundational theater and performance studies texts, not knowing that a lot of it was critical theory. And I needed support in getting through those dense texts. And if I could go back in time, I would have relaxed. I would have slowed down. I would have enjoyed my last summer in a long time. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:13:59]: I would have had off. So that's one thing that I did that I thought was gonna help me prepare, but it I don't know how much it actually helped. There were things that happened for me in my grad school journey that certainly helped me to make that pivot outside of the tenure track that I didn't know were going to help me. And it was just me leaning into my intuition and what felt good for me. In my 1st year of graduate school, everybody told me focus on your studies, focus on your research, and I was presented with an opportunity to become a graduate mentor for undergraduates, for Mellon May Fellows, and also for students who were involved in undergraduate research at the at the Center For Undergraduate Research at UCLA. And something just told me, I really wanna do this. It sounds like a great opportunity. I said yes, and I absolutely fell in love with it. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:14:49]: That's when I realized, wow. I have a passion for service work, for mentoring, for guiding students. And this is something that not only do I enjoy, but it comes easy to me. So I kept that in the back of my head. Okay. In the future, I wanna make sure that I figure out a career where I can incorporate more of that service work. That was one thing. The second thing that I did was well, this wasn't something that directly helped me to prepare for my career, but helped me prepare for life was I actually became a mom in graduate school. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:15:21]: And in becoming a mom, not only was it the single hardest thing for me to go through physically, emotionally, psychologically, but it was also one of the most empowering things for me to go through because I learned how to advocate for my child. And in learning how to advocate for my child, I learned how to advocate for myself. And in tending to my child's needs, I realized I had my own needs, and I became aware. Woah. Hold up. There so many nontraditional students on campus, so many different types of populations and folks who are not being served as best as they can, which led to me getting involved in advocacy work, student activist work, and really leaning into developing a community of support groups, including mother scholars, but also support groups of women of color scholars, of theater scholars, of just folks at different intersections of the work that I did. And in building these communities and support systems, that's what kept me going. And it wasn't until I got to the end of my graduate school time and started working full time, that's how I met Milos, was by, becoming the assistant, later the associate director of the McNair Scholars Program, that I've realized these were key moments and instances that led to me discovering what I was good at, discovering what was helping me out, and it's actually the type of guidance I offer to students. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:16:43]: If they're really struggling, I say you need to build your support system. You need to build your community. You need to figure out what you're good at and lean into those things. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:16:51]: Yeah. I would say for me that it was a little bit different in terms of, like, my focus. So I think my focus and, again, I think I was less conscious of what I was doing at the moment and what it meant for me to go to grad school as a Chicano, Latina immigrant at the time. For me, it was more focused around my intent was more focused around the intellectual work that I wanted to do and sort of the contributions I wanted to provide academically. Like, for me, it was repairing, filling, recovering these stories that filling the literature, addressing these histories that had not been told, and providing them for the community. Right? For to be able to be able to provide the community these mirrors that have been that have been absent for so long in textbooks and history books and everywhere media and so forth. So I saw myself contributing to that. And that was what drove me in grad school to keep doing that. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:17:38]: Because I'll tell you the Q1, the first semester, whatever you wanna call it, was terrible. Like, I felt like every week I went home and cried. I had a headache. I thought, like, what am I doing here? So every week I wanted to quit. You know, I just thought this is, like, in reference to what Yvette was saying, the imposter phenomenon was real. So I just kept saying, like, what am I doing here? And so definitely the Q1, and I didn't do very well in one of my classes, I remember getting a b or a b minus, which essentially means you're on very thin ice, right? Because there's 2 grades, there's 3 grades and a plus an a and an a minus. I think or no. Maybe it's an a a minus and b plus. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:18:11]: I think I gotta b plus in one class with this very well known historian. And so I was kinda crushed, and I thought instead of running away with the tail between my legs as they say or any kind of shame, I thought, like, I'll show her or I'll show them. So it really fueled my desire to represent, and I really gave it my all. So I guess it's part of that imposter phenomenon when we think we have to work twice and 3 times as hard. But for me, it was very much trying to fulfill an academic trying to an academic space trying to give back to the community in terms of like, what it needed, what I thought it needed in terms of history. So So those that was sort of my call. And this idea of knowledge is power. That was something that my peers and I and my peers were so critical to get into grad school. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:18:52]: To 2 people in particular, that's how it kind of felt like we had a big number and then started dwindling and dwindling over the years. And there was 3 of us left standing, so to speak. And so we always had this commitment to our fields and to ourselves and to our to our community to keep doing this work. Or else at the end of the day, we wouldn't have finished. What's ultimately as well, it's equally to your project, to your subjects that you want this academic work you're doing. For me, that's what it was, and also to my community. So those two things really kept me when everything else seemed so challenging and you were fighting against it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:23]: Now I appreciate both of you talking about your own journeys because I think that this leads really well into not only the book that you wrote, but also into grad school FEMTuring that I mentioned at the beginning. And I know that Grad School FEMTuring LLC was founded by you, Yvette, and it provides 1st gen students of color with support, skills, and tools to empower themselves to thrive in grad school and beyond. And I guess, could you take a couple of minutes here and elaborate a little bit more on the concept of mentoring and its distinctness from traditional mentoring. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:20:02]: Yes. Of course. So one of the the reasons why this book even exists is because of the femtorship relationship that Milos and I both have. In the book, we wanted to make sure that we clarified what we meant by ment by femtorship as opposed to mentorship, and we explicitly state that femtorship is a type of mentoring that incorporates an intersectional feminist lens. And in doing so, it takes into account a holistic perspective or providing a holistic type of support that is inclusive of different aspects of an individual's identity that may impact the kind of support that they need. This includes all the identity markers, race, ethnicity, class, gender, disability, etcetera. And so for us, it was important to make a nod to that and also to call attention to the fact that a lot of times this type of work is service work, and a lot of times it's also gender type of work. And so for us, we wanted to make that distinction because traditional forms of mentorship aren't always providing that holistic type of support. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:21:10]: Yes. They're still providing guidance. They might still be teaching. They might still be offering insights to the mentee, but it doesn't necessarily call into mind that you know, the multiple different aspects of support that a student may need. So that's why we wanted to make that distinction and also to make that nod in the book that not only was it inspired by our relationship with Milos being my own femtor, she was once my supervisor, and it was one of the first times I say this, and I can't keep stating this enough. Meeting Miroslava was one of the first times of me experiencing someone who saw me as my full self, not just my professional self, and who provided support and who advocated on my on my behalf. In fact, when by the time she came in as my supervisor, I was on my way out. I was already planning my exit strategy, and she was trying to find ways to keep me in. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:22:06]: I was like, I love you, but I've made my decision. And also thank you for showing me that there is another way of doing things. So, yes, it's a nod to that, and it's also a nod to the podcast, which is also by the same title, Grad School Fem Touring. A lot of the material we've shared is material that we have shared 1 on 1 in our own supporting students and also that I have shared publicly on the podcast so that everybody has access to this Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:22:32]: information. Also adding to what Yvette just so beautifully stated, a lot of what we were most what we provide in the book, right, comes from our personal experiences. But also I would add that a lot of it comes based from research and research evidence based practices that is in the research that we have used in McNair, but also that we have used in our own work and certainly Yvette in our own work. I just, right, holistic approach that's evidence based practice that we know that that works most effectively with the student populations that we're dealing with, or the the, you know, the wraparound services or the sort of taking the whole the whole approach, not just providing mentorship, or providing a research experience. You need to provide them other tools. So that's one of the things that we incorporate as well. So it's not just like, here anecdotal experiences, and we're gonna make this fit for everyone. No. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:23:17]: We're basing our our work on the research that's out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:20]: Now, Miro, you just talked about your personal experiences. You both kinda shared some of your own personal experiences in the journeys that both of you went on. How did your own personal experiences as first gen students of color shape the advice and the guidance that you're providing in the book, but also, Yvette, in the podcast? Sure. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:23:43]: I think as we've kind of been implicitly stating is that fundamental to where the book deeply shaped our own experiences have deeply shaped the book. I think that Yvette's perspective and our experience or many years of doing this work have helped the book take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Right? To be able to structure the book the way it's structured. It's structured very intentionally around the different points that people need to consider for graduate school and how that process is laid out. So she did a wonderful job in doing that, and I sort of chimed in and how we're needed. But because she has that direct experience to 1 on 1 and doing that kind of work where I'm more an academic space, and we do that. I do that in different ways through McNair. I think that you've had brought that very much so. Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia [00:24:22]: So definitely our personal experiences, I mean, the need and the drive for the demand. I mean, Yvette said many times, as I've talked with her about how she had this book in mind for years, I've done lots of articles around professional development around writing around balancing work life around power and privilege. I've done all these articles I never thought of now that we've been talking about it, like, this is a coal you know, coalesce all these ideas or integrate all these ideas in this book has been. I did it without thinking, but I think that thinking about it intentionally, but Yvette certainly has. And I'm so grateful for that that this oh, here it is. You know, here's what I've been doing little pieces, little piece work, but it's integrated in a whole space. And hopefully, it might be a follow-up. We'll see. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:25:03]: I want to add to that because Miros mentioned that we came together to write this book and that the book is shaped by the podcast and by the support that we've been providing, the guidance that we've been providing to students. And for me, my experience in undergrad was one of feeling like the space was not only very confusing and difficult to navigate, but also very inaccessible. I didn't know when I was an undergraduate that I was neurodivergent. It only became something for me to when my own child was diagnosed on the autism spectrum. This was 7 years ago. And as I did more research, I realized, oh, we've got a lot in common. There's something here. I've always struggled with x, y, and z, and I've always found student norms to be very confusing. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:25:50]: So every step of the way, when I was navigating college, when I was navigating graduate school, I had so many questions, not enough answers. I just wanted someone to show me the how. Just show me how. And so it you talk to anybody who has known me for over a decade, I was I was someone whom I created binders. I literally before we had Google Drive, I had my binders of handouts. And I would start to even when I worked at the undergraduate research center, I created binders so students could come and pull up the binders with the tabs, how to do this, how to send an email, how to because those are the concerns that I had, and I found in gathering these resources and sharing them, more people were benefiting from the things that I found to be struggles. And that's actually how the podcast, came about. I was running out of bandwidth in supporting students. Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:26:40]: I had a lot of folks who were asking me to mentor them beyond the McNair Scholars Program. I only had enough hours in the day, and I thought, I keep repeating myself. I sound like a broken record. I need to do something about it. I had podcasting experience from starting a podcast with another collective. And so I created a podcast and started sharing it just with my mentees, mentees, and then the mentee shared it with the mother and another. And all of this unfolded into, again, what was once this frustration of wondering why is there no book that's teaching me this to then developing these resources over time so that by the time we sat down to write it, we wrote it in 6 months. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]: And I think each of you talked a little bit about imposter syndrome. And as you went through your own journeys, that you felt it in some ways. And I've heard that many times from individuals that go through graduate school that at least one point in their journey, they're going to have that feeling of why am I here? Why was I selected? What am I doing? Am I qualified? Lots of questions like that. As you have been femtoring other students, what are some strategies that you found that you have been sharing with those students that they can employ to overcome those feelings of imposter syndrome throughout that journey that they're going on? Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu [00:28:03]: So one of the distinctions that we made in the book is,

Embarking on a journey to graduate school comes with its own set of successes and challenges. The path to achieving success in graduate school is seldom a straightforward one. In this enlightening conversation, we sit down with Dr. David Luke, the chief diversity officer at the University of Michigan-Flint, to delve into Dr. Luke's experiences and insights on navigating the world of graduate school. Aspiring and current graduate students can gain invaluable knowledge from Dr. Luke's journey, including his motivations for continuing his education, the pivotal experiences that shaped his graduate school experience, and the essential tips for finding success. Motivation and Transition: Dr. Luke's journey began at Grand Valley State University, where his early academic path was rooted in business and accounting. However, it was his experiences in sociology and the impactful support he received from the Office of Multicultural Affairs that sparked a shift in his educational trajectory. He describes his realization that he wanted to be the one facilitating the meaningful experiences he encountered in the classroom as a pivotal moment. This realization prompted him to pursue a career in higher education, leading him to the decision to continue his education beyond his undergraduate years. For aspiring graduate students, this underscores the significance of self-discovery and finding a genuine passion as key factors in shaping one's academic journey. Preparing for Graduate School: Dr. Luke candidly shares the challenges he faced as he transitioned from the structured world of undergraduate studies to the more intellectually demanding and self-directed nature of graduate school. His experiences in accounting had not fully prepared him for the rigors of graduate-level coursework, presenting a steep learning curve. To navigate this transition, he emphasizes the importance of self-discipline, time management, and a clear understanding of the commitment required for success in graduate school. Additionally, he advises prospective students to thoroughly research potential advisors and faculty members to ensure a good fit, highlighting the pivotal role that an advisor plays in a student's academic journey. Nurturing Resilience: Dr. Luke's journey was also marked by significant life events, including the birth of his first child, which taught him the importance of resilience and adaptability. Despite facing setbacks that delayed his progress, he advises students to embrace life's unpredictability and its impact on their academic journey. Given the marathon-like nature of graduate school, Dr. Luke emphasizes the significance of having a clear understanding of one's purpose and motivation, serving as a constant source of drive throughout the challenging years of study. The Impact of Graduate Education on Career: As Dr. Luke progressed through his master's and doctorate programs in sociology, he gained deep insights into race and racism, equipping him with the tools to address systemic issues of inequity. His academic background in sociology profoundly influences his work as the chief diversity officer, allowing him to apply the principles of the sociological imagination to address equity issues within his institution. For aspiring graduate students interested in careers in diversity, equity, and inclusion, Dr. Luke's journey serves as a testament to the profound impact of a rigorous graduate education in shaping one's approach to effecting meaningful change within institutions. Evaluating the Campus Culture: Graduate school aspirants often grapple with the challenge of identifying institutions with a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Dr. Luke underscores the need to thoroughly assess the structure and resources devoted to diversity, equity, and inclusion within prospective institutions. He emphasizes the importance of evaluating the outcomes of these efforts, as well as the sincerity of the institution's leadership in fostering a truly inclusive environment. Additionally, he advises students to engage with current graduate students to gain insight into their experiences and the level of support and encouragement available within the academic community. Dr. Luke's candid reflections provide invaluable insights for individuals considering or currently navigating the terrain of graduate education. His experiences underscore the significance of identifying intrinsic motivation, fostering resilience, and aligning one's academic pursuits with a clear purpose. As students embark on their own journeys to graduate school, they can draw upon Dr. Luke's wisdom to navigate the challenges and triumphs inherent in the pursuit of advanced education. Dr. David Luke's journey serves as a beacon of inspiration for prospective and current graduate students, providing a candid account of the trials, growth, and triumphs experienced on the path to advanced education. By embracing these insights, aspiring graduate students can better position themselves for success, armed with the wisdom and guidance shared by Dr. Luke. By incorporating Dr. Luke's invaluable advice, you can chart a course that honors their passions, nurtures resilience, and aligns with their long-term aspirations, ultimately laying the groundwork for a successful and impactful journey through graduate school.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk with you, to work with you as you are walking through this journey that you're on, this journey that may lead you to graduate school. You may already be in graduate school. You may see the light at the end of the tunnel because you're in graduate school, and you see the door down the road, and you're getting ready to graduate. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And for me, the biggest thing that I want for you is for you to find success in this journey that you're on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]: That's why every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, bring you different hints, tips, resources, things that you can think about that can help you to add some tools to your own toolbox that will provide you with some perspective and offer you some opportunities to be able to learn and grow. That's also why I love bringing you different guests every week that have gone before you, people that have had different paths that they've walked on, different journeys that they've gone through to lead them to where they are today, but all of them have gone to graduate school in the past. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor David Luke is with us, and and David is the chief diversity officer at the University of Michigan Flint. And he did his undergraduate work at Grand Valley State University, but then went on from there and got both a master's and a doctorate from the University of Kentucky. So we're gonna be talking to him about his journey, and I'm really excited to have him here with us today. David, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. David Luke [00:01:54]: Thank you, Chris. I'm excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. And I guess first and foremost, I wanna I wanna turn the clock back in time. I'm gonna go back to those days at Grand Valley State University when you were studying business and accounting as well as sociology. And at some point during your time at Grand Valley, after your time at Grand Valley, something was sparked in you. Something was sparked in you that made you decide that you wanted to continue your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to continue that education and go further? Dr. David Luke [00:02:30]: So I went to Grand Valley. I graduated high school, went to Grand Valley. I'm from Grand Rapids, so I was basically going down the street, although Allendale was never really a destination for me. I hadn't actually been to the campus that I would end up being at until the summer before I started. And as a 18 year old college student, I didn't have the clearest vision for what I intended to do. So I knew that one of the outcomes that I should have with college is to get a job. So I went into college with a general business major and was persuaded by some accounting faculty to go into accounting, and then was persuaded by them even though I didn't do that great relatively in the intro to accounting classes, but then was persuaded by them to get a CPA license. All of these are good things for job prospects, So that was appealing to me. Dr. David Luke [00:03:23]: Part of the requirements for being a CPA include 150 college credits, and it doesn't really matter what the discipline is. And so I had in undergrad in my general education taken some sociology courses. The first one I took was the sociology of the civil rights movement because in the general education, at the time, there was a civil rights, you could pick a theme. You take 3 classes within a theme, and the theme that I chose was the civil rights movement. And so I took that class. I took intro, and I thought, I like this, and I would like to major in this. But even more so, these experiences that I'm having in this classroom are things that I might like to reproduce someday. I would like to be the person facilitating some of this. Dr. David Luke [00:04:03]: Specifically, sociology gave tools and language and a structure to organize thoughts that I had sort of abstractly in my mind, especially as pertains to race and racism. And so helped me to develop a more sophisticated understanding and and really then think about what are ways we could do to intervene to disrupt systemic racism. And cocurricularly, I received a lot of support through the office of multicultural affairs at Grand Valley. And there was a person there at the time, the late dean Oliver Wilson, who was the dean of multicultural affairs, who was over that office. And I wanted his job, essentially. I thought, oh, I could really find fulfillment out of that. So I graduated. We were heading into the great recession at the time. Dr. David Luke [00:04:45]: I had my accounting degree. And my plan was I would work 10 or 15 years in accounting, earn some money, and then transition at some point to a career in higher ed, whether it was as a sociology professor or in sort of multicultural affairs, diversity, equity, and inclusion work. I lasted two and a half years in public accounting. I did 3 busy seasons, and that was enough for me to want to study for the GRE. Now along the way, also, I was taking the CPA exams. I had to take and pass 4 parts of this big exam within a calendar year. I did that, But so my my life from January through end of March was consumed by busy season work. And then for the 1st year outside of that time, when I would come home at 5, I would eat, and then I would study for 3 to 4 hours a night for the exam. Dr. David Luke [00:05:35]: So there was no balance for me for work life balance. And and in retrospect, I think had there been, I would have probably lasted longer in accounting. I could've left public accounting and gone somewhere where the hours are a little bit more reasonable. But I don't regret my choice to apply for graduate school. But even, you know, as I mentioned, you know, going into undergrad, not really knowing what I was doing and and choosing business, I knew disciplinarily that I wanted to study sociology, but the process for applying for graduate schools and understanding how to do that kind of in a thoughtful, deliberate, intelligent way was not something that I was super familiar with, especially given that I was not coming from academia. Right? So I I've been a couple years removed. I had a lot of support from sociology faculty at Grand Valley who helped walk me through the process and write recommendations and all of that. But I still, in retrospect, think some of the students that I work with at U of M Flint that are pursuing grad school are much more well prepared than I was in many ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:33]: Now you ended up at the University of Kentucky, and you probably could have gone many different places to be able to study sociology. There's many graduate programs across the country. Talk to me about the thought process that you went through and what ended up leading you to the University of Kentucky for sociology? Dr. David Luke [00:06:56]: One of the primary reason that I went to Grand Valley for undergrad was financial. I was offered the best scholarship package there. I was able to go there and graduate without incurring debt. I applied to 10 different schools for sociology PhD programs. The strategy was have, like, 3 maybe reach schools that, you know, you might not get in, but if I did, it'd be great. 3 or 4 kind of I'll probably be able to get in in their quality, and then a few that you're sure you'll get in. What ended up happening in that process was and I had applied to Kentucky in part because I I knew someone that moved down there, and I had some familiarity with the university. And part of the choice was, again, financial. Dr. David Luke [00:07:38]: I was a funded graduate student at at UK. But, also, I I went on a visit there and met with the person who would be my adviser, and I was a bit overwhelmed by him. He has a very intense intellectual curiosity and a breadth of knowledge and, you know, so I I met with him and he's rattling off all of this stuff that, you know, is kind of making my head spin. But I knew that I could learn a lot and grow a lot there and that, I would be well supported. And interestingly enough, the director of graduate studies at the times had had some interesting connections to Michigan. She was a grad student at Michigan State, but had done undergrad at Aquinas College, which is in Grand Rapids, and had a professor there who was one of my professors at Grand Valley when I was in undergrad. So it was a small world thing, But there were a few couple other programs, and I and I actually think in many ways I was an odd fit at Kentucky. They have strengths in Appalachian sociology, rural sociology, and then they were kind of as I was leaving in 2018, the areas of emphasis tended to be more criminology and medical sociology, and none of those really fit with me. Dr. David Luke [00:08:42]: My interests were in race and racism and also in work and organizations. So I had some experiences from my time in public accounting that sort of informed more of an interest in in work and organizations. And so I did some research and and work around that also and taught that class while I was in grad school too, sociology of work and organizations. But, yeah, it was a practical matter of getting a a funded assistantship. And and I was a research assistant on NSF funded projects for the 1st 3 years that ultimately resulted in a coauthored book. And then I also having met some of the people down there kind of solidified things. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]: Now not everybody may understand because you did go from a master's to a doctorate. And as you said, just a second ago, you were applying for a doctorate program. And we've talked about this on the show in the past, but that there are some graduate programs that are out there that are lockstep, where you're applying for a PhD, but along the way, you're getting a master's degree. Talk to me about how that worked for you and the difference between what you were doing in your master's and your doctorate, just to add some clarity for what that experience was like for you? Dr. David Luke [00:09:57]: Yeah. It's an interesting question because the program that I was in changed in that regard while I was there. So I applied thinking that I was a PhD student. I remember at an orientation saying I was a PhD student and a faculty member correcting me and telling me that I was a master's student. So at that time, you would do 2 years of coursework and your master's thesis was sort of the culmination at the 2 year mark. And at that point, you would do a sort of application to get into the PhD program. What changed probably 5 years into my time there and I was I was on there for a little over 7 year 7 and a half years. The program changed so that people would apply for the PhD program, and if they left early after, like, 2 or 3 years, there there would be a master's paper, something they would write sort of in the middle of their towards the 2 thirds through their coursework. Dr. David Luke [00:10:55]: And if they completed that, they would get sort of a terminal masters as a parting gift if they decided not to complete the PhD for whatever reason. And and grad school is a marathon. There are a number of reasons that people don't don't finish a PhD when they initially intend to, but I essentially I I did my 2 years, my master's, thesis, defended it. The director of graduate studies at that time was my MA adviser, and she wrote a letter to herself to recommend me for the PhD program so that they would have that record on file because the adviser would recommend to the DGS. And so in my case, it was someone writing a letter to themselves. The coursework was basically 3 for the program as a whole, it was basically 3 years of of structured coursework, then you do your qualifying exams, your proposal, and then your, dissertation. And those 3 years, you're taking classes with masters and PhD students. So the 2 years of masters coursework and then the thesis, a masters is supposed to represent, content matter, mastery. Dr. David Luke [00:12:00]: Right? You you are as a master's someone with a master's in sociology, you know and understand the field at a very high level. The PhD is supposed to be adding knowledge to the field. So my master's thesis isn't necessarily something that adds knowledge to the field, but my PhD, the dissertation should be something that creates or adds new knowledge within the field of sociology. So that's kind of the bigger difference. And then, you know, people once they finish their coursework, people do their dissertation from all over the place. So you're kind of with this cohort moving through, and then everybody's finding their ways differently. So for me, I was in my PhD program at the dissertation stage, and a position opened up in the Martin Luther King Center at the University of Kentucky. And I knew that if I wanted to get my foot in that type of work, I had to have some experience, and this was my chance. Dr. David Luke [00:12:53]: And so I was able to get a job. So my last couple years in grad school, I was also working full time and working on my dissertation. And I had a very supportive supervisor who was trusting giving me autonomy and trust that I could carve out time to write during my work day as long as I was doing what I needed to for the job to. So that was really helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:13]: Now earlier, you talked about that you left Grand Valley. You worked for about 2 years in accounting and then made that transition into graduate school. So there's a little bit of time between your undergrad and grad work. And we've talked about this on the show as well, that there is a big difference between the way that you're educated typically in undergrad and in in the expectation in graduate school. And there's so so there is a transition that you have to go through. Can you think back to your time transitioning into graduate school because you were able to find success? You got through both the master's, the doctor degree. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of your graduate school experience? Dr. David Luke [00:14:03]: Yeah. It's a good question. So I've been working and going to school since I was 14. So I get to graduate school and they're telling me I had a RA ship that was 20 hours a week, but I had a fellowship that would cover 10. So I would work 10 hours a week, and then they told me that I would take 3 classes. So I said, can I take 5? And they said, no. 3 is full time in graduate school. And I was like, okay. Dr. David Luke [00:14:27]: I could take 4. And then can I work a little bit more? And they're like, no. You don't know what the workload is here. I come in thinking a credit is a credit. Right? I'm I'm not gonna take 9 credit hours and work 10 hours a week. I'm not gonna have anything to do. That was incorrect. Right? You're given a 120 pages to read for each class in a 5 to 7 page paper a week. Dr. David Luke [00:14:49]: That consumes time. And I know for undergrads, they say it's 2 to 3 hours outside the classroom of work per hour in the classroom, and many students find that it takes them less time than that. I don't know what the amount is for graduate school, but it's much more. And the classes are structured so much differently. You know, I'm in a class with 8 people. We've read something that gave us a headache, and now we're all supposed to try to talk about it and figure it out. And so for me, coming from accounting where it's very much here's the rule, here's the I remember I took a sociological classical sociological theory class my 1st semester, and that was a major struggle. The professor kept saying, well, let's take it to the next level of abstraction. Dr. David Luke [00:15:30]: And I'm like, why would we do that? Let's apply it to something so that I know what we're actually talking about. Right? So my 1st semester, I got 2 b's and an a, and that I didn't really realize was not very good. Right? You need to get a b to pass in the program. And so 2 b's was, hey. You just made it past those two classes. Now after that, I didn't get any more b's. And I don't really think the grades matter that much, but I think it requires a lot of, you know, self discipline, time management, especially when you get past coursework. I mean, the coursework, the workload is different. Dr. David Luke [00:16:11]: The style of course seminars are different, more discussion. But you've been doing classroom stuff at that point in your life. You've done 20 plus years of of class stuff. So you we kind of understand most graduate students kind of understand how to do that part. It's afterwards I mean, for me and the structure of the program changed slightly, but understanding what qualifying exams were, that wasn't made clear to me up front. So I had to read a bunch of books to become an expert. And, really, that's where when I was working on my qualifying exams, that's where I felt that I gained enough expertise to consider myself a scholar of race and racism because those the coursework didn't cover it. It was when I worked with my advisor. Dr. David Luke [00:16:53]: I had an independent study where we read books for my qualifying exams, and I did little summaries of each book, prepared myself. Qualifying exams came in. That sort of became a large chunk of the literature review for my dissertation project, and that was where I saw things building. But that's the part too where it is so much a marathon. I would remember thinking about the scope of what I was trying to do and being completely overwhelmed by it. It, like, paralyzed by it. I go into a meeting with my adviser and to his credit, as he broke down, you gotta work on this, this, this, they became manageable chunks. And I would leave the meeting knowing, okay, I can do this. Dr. David Luke [00:17:32]: I'll take these steps and go forward and progress in that way. And I think that's something that I've carried forward a lot also. You know, I think the scope of work of diversity, equity, inclusion on campuses like the University of Michigan, Flint and many others can be very daunting. We have a lot of work to do, and there are some manageable chunks and pieces and things that we can do that I can point to and say, we've been able to do these things, and they've made the university better, and we'll keep at it. We still have a lot to do, but we're making a difference. Right? So I think a lot of that translates. The other thing I'll say too is life happens during graduate school. I and my wife planned and intended to have children. Dr. David Luke [00:18:13]: Our first born was born. I had a full time job. She did too. We had a home. We had a bedroom prepared, a crib, all that stuff. I didn't know what it was like to have a newborn in the house. I'm the youngest in my family, and that put me back 1 year. And so I've said that to students. Dr. David Luke [00:18:31]: I've had students that have had children in undergrad and said, oh, I'll be back in 6 weeks. And I said, you need to look into medical withdrawal because that is a lot. And I did feel we were very well prepared to do that. And so I had several colleagues that also had children, got married, other major life events happened during graduate school. And so it is some of it is things you can control. There's some things that you can't control. You do the best you can to control what you can, and but it is definitely a marathon. And that that's where I think my biggest thing that helped me is I knew why I wanted this. Dr. David Luke [00:19:04]: So I wanted a PhD so that I could be a credible expert to teach and to facilitate some of those experiences I had in undergraduate or to be able to be in a leadership position on a on a, university campus where I could influence positive change. In both of those instances, that's what a PhD would do for me. So that that helped me motivate. I had friends and colleagues that didn't have a good reason why they were there, and most of the time for those folks, they wouldn't finish. So I don't indiscriminately recommend people to go to graduate school. I I recommend people to think very clearly about what they need and why they need it and help that motivate them to complete what they're trying to start in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:46]: So you have a degree now in a master's degree in sociology, a doctorate degree in sociology. You are a chief diversity officer. You got to that position that you were aiming for when you knew the person from Grand Valley that was a mentor for you. Talk to me about how that graduate education informs the work that you do on a daily basis. Dr. David Luke [00:20:11]: I mean, in a lot of ways, formal and informal, I think it informs it. You know, I'm a sociologist, so I have to talk about socialization. Right? So being a graduate student, working directly with faculty, and I was selected by my peers to be president of our graduate student organization. As such, I was attending department faculty meetings and representing the student voice at those meetings. That was very valuable to me as now I'm sometimes in similar meetings, and I have a sense for sort of how those how those function, how those run. You know, the specific content that I studied in graduate school is directly related to the work that I'm doing now. Obviously, I have a substantive focus on race and racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion is much broader than that, but much of that translates to other systems of oppression and understanding different social identities. And I think my disciplinary background in sociology is an advantage to institutional diversity, equity, and inclusion work because what we are trying to do is address the structural underpinnings of inequity within organizations, and that's what sociology does. Dr. David Luke [00:21:17]: So sociologists, the big learning outcome in intro to sociology classes is that students will understand the sociological imagination, which is the connection between one's private troubles and public issues. So if we have a student that encounters an issue relating to inequitable treatment or in some way, We don't view that just as an isolated instance. Certainly, you first attend to that student's need, but then you look at how do we prevent that same issue from happening from to another student in the future? What is it about our policies, practices, norms, that are producing this outcome for this student, and how do we make sure that doesn't happen for others? And so that's how I'm constantly thinking. I want to get less and less busy. I would hope that as we address the things that we're doing as an institution that are producing inequitable results, that then we have less and less to do. And it's a different conceptualization than a lot of times when people think about racism, sexism, homophobia, they think about an individual bigot and their actions. And there certainly are consequences if we have people that hold very prejudiced views and position the power, and and they can they can cause harm. But the bigger problem is when those harm causing behaviors, patterns are encouraged institutionally in some way or supported institutionally in some way. Dr. David Luke [00:22:35]: So to the extent that we can normalize inclusive equitable behaviors and practices, people who behave in ways that run contrary to those norms will face informal sanction. We don't do that here. It doesn't have to be a formal sanction necessary. There's there's tense amount of pressure from informal sanctions based on social norms within an organization. So we're saying that we care about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that needs to be felt by everyone. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:00]: You know, one of the questions that, I guess, that I would ask is that as individuals are looking at graduate school, they will see different organizations. They'll see different individuals like yourself that are working with people on the campus to create a culture of inclusion and creating an atmosphere that would be welcoming for all. What should students be looking for to identify the culture of a campus when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion as they're looking at graduate schools? Dr. David Luke [00:23:34]: If you look at the structure of the institution's DEI offices, the resources going towards those efforts, and and it's relative to, right, to the size and the budget of the institution, the outcomes that they're able to talk about from those efforts, what university leadership is saying. I mean, one of the big challenges and especially for folks that are considering working in diversity, equity, inclusion roles, there's a plethora of chief diversity officer jobs. Although there's fewer now given some of the political opposition to it, but many of these roles are constructed to be figureheads that do not have any authority to make change within the organization. So they check a box, they might offer a nice salary, and their hope is that you will just kind of do some trainings and workshops that are maybe not that consequential that we know from research are not the most impactful practices. But we can say we did them, and we can say we have this person, and we can say that we're we're doing something good versus places that are trying to make measurable change in key areas where it's not just the diversity officer and the DEI roles that are held accountable. But throughout the organization, folks are being held accountable and expected to contribute to DEI efforts. These are the things that I would look for. And, also, I mean, graduate students, if you get a chance when you're considering a program to talk to some of the graduate students there, talk to folks there about what they're experiencing. Dr. David Luke [00:25:00]: Are they feeling a result from the professor efforts? But yeah. I mean, those are those are a few ways I think that that could help get a sense for. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:08]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice, things that you've learned along the way. As you're thinking about students that are coming up now and that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner? Dr. David Luke [00:25:24]: First thing is why. Why are you doing it? Have a have a good reason. So next, I would say, I'll think of things that I could have done better. It would have been advantageous for me to do more research on research within the fields to understand faculty that I might like to work with. Right? This is a thing that a lot of PhD students do, is you would apply to a program and in your application materials, say, I would like to work with this person on this type of research that they're doing. Right? I didn't do that. And I thought about that after my finished my masters. I could have applied somewhere else, perhaps and would have been much stronger application. Dr. David Luke [00:26:03]: But, I I had a pretty good experience at UK and a and a pretty good situation there, so I decided to stay. And then I think I was fortunate. I have some colleagues from grad school that I'm still very close with. Some programs are very cutthroat and competitive, and others are much more collegial. And that's really important because you're going through something that is usually pretty long, pretty challenging. And when you have other folks that are going through that experience with you that you can count on each other and encourage each other, that makes a world of difference. So those are some of the things that I would recommend. And, you know, when you're looking at faculty advisors and stuff, you know, look people up. Dr. David Luke [00:26:43]: Google them. See what folks are saying. Talk to other graduate students. But your advisor can have a very strong impact on your success within that program and how you do in the field. So it's it's that's a very important if you get the wrong adviser switching, there's a lot of politics involved in those decisions too. So, yeah, be very judicious and and thorough with deciding where you wanna go and who you wanna work with. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:10]: Well, David, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being a voice that is helping others to make that transition, to identify the next steps for themselves. I truly appreciate you sharing your journey with us today, and I wish you all the best. Dr. David Luke [00:27:29]: Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu forward /graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Entering graduate school is a significant step in one's academic and professional journey. It requires careful consideration, motivation, and a clear vision of how it will contribute to personal and career growth. In this week's Victors in Grad School Podcast, Marsha Hare, an international logistics analyst with XPO Logistics, shares her inspiring journey from undertaking undergraduate studies to successfully completing a Master of Science Administration in Information Resource Management at Central Michigan University. Her experiences provide valuable insights for individuals considering or currently pursuing graduate education. Transitioning from Undergraduate Work to Graduate School Marsha reflects on her decision to pursue graduate studies after gaining work experience following her undergraduate degree. Rather than following a predetermined path, she made the decision for herself, driven by a desire to broaden her skills and knowledge. This highlights the importance of personal motivation and autonomy when making the transition to graduate school. Her readiness for this new phase of education was influenced by reaching a point in her life where she had more time available for studying, demonstrating that identifying the right timing for graduate studies is a personal consideration that can impact one's success in the program. Choosing the Right Program and Institution Marsha's decision-making process in selecting the Information Resource Management program at Central Michigan University sheds light on important factors to consider when choosing a graduate program. Her choice was influenced by both the relevance of the program to her professional experience and the flexibility it offered. Additionally, the absence of an entrance exam requirement at the institution allowed her to focus on meeting other necessary prerequisites, giving her the opportunity to flourish without the pressure of standardized testing. This emphasizes the significance of aligning the program with one's career goals and considering the educational environment that best suits individual learning styles. Adapting to Graduate Study: Strategies for Success Marsha's decision to pursue her studies online required discipline, meticulous planning, and effective time management. Her approach to organizing her study schedule by looking ahead at the curriculum, establishing deadlines, and understanding her personal learning process exemplifies the adaptability and self-awareness needed to excel in a graduate program. Her commitment to studying during work breaks and utilizing available resources, such as the workplace gym, showcases the creativity and determination required to balance work and academics. Marsha's experience emphasizes the importance of self-discipline, organization, and utilizing available resources to succeed in the unique challenges of a graduate program. Impact of Graduate Education on Professional Growth Marsha's graduate education directly impacted her professional role by enhancing her research skills and data analysis capabilities. Her ability to conduct thorough research and analyze data efficiently elevated her performance in the logistics industry. While not directly leading to a promotion, the knowledge and skills gained from her program equipped her to handle complex industry challenges with confidence. Marsha's experience underscores the potential for a graduate degree to elevate one's expertise and proficiency within their professional domain. Tips for Success: Navigating Graduate School Marsha's advice for future graduate students emphasizes the significance of collaborative work and adaptation to diverse perspectives. Encouraging an open-minded approach and respectful interaction within group settings highlights the value of networking and the potential for personal growth through varied viewpoints. Her emphasis on appreciating different perspectives and learning from others resonates with the collaborative nature of graduate education and its long-term impact on professional development. Navigating Graduate School with Purpose Marsha Hare's journey through graduate school offers valuable lessons for those considering or currently pursuing advanced education. Her story demonstrates the importance of personal drive, strategic decision-making, adaptability, and the ability to leverage both personal and professional experiences to excel in a graduate program. By reflecting on Marsha's insights, individuals can gain a deeper understanding of the considerations and strategies that contribute to a successful graduate school experience, ultimately paving the way for meaningful personal and professional growth.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week and to be able to walk with you on this journey that you're on. I say journey because it is a journey, and every person goes through a journey as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, as they're preparing to leave graduate school. And you and I are on this journey together because I know that every person's journey is a little bit unique, and it's important for you to be able to have some tools in your toolbox to help you along this path that can open your eyes to some of the things that you might be able to do, even right now, that can help you to be successful in graduate school. And that's why this podcast exists. It exists to help you to be able to learn from other people, other people that have conned before you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: And that's why every week I love being able to have different guests, guests that have gone to graduate school in the past, have learned, they have grown, have been successful in that journey, and I can share that journey with you as well. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Marsha Hair is with us today. And Marsha is a international logistics analyst with XPO Logistics, and she has been there for quite a few years. And she did her graduate work at Central Michigan University, but before that was at the University of Michigan Flint. And we're gonna talk about the journey that she went on, going from her undergraduate work to working to going to get her graduate degree and learn from that journey along the way. Marsha, thanks so much for being here today. Marsha Hare [00:02:01]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here. I wanna turn the clock back in time because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. You did your bachelor's of business administration at U of M Flint, and you did that in human resources and organizational behavior management. And then you went off and you worked for a while. And sometime in that period of time between when you graduated and in your work life, you made a decision. You made a decision to go back to school. What was going through your head as you were out in the workforce and you were deciding to go and go back to school after being in the workforce for some time? Marsha Hare [00:02:43]: What was going through my head when I did my undergraduate studies? I kind of did that because that was, like, the next step. That's what I was told in school. This is the next step. The family encouraged me to go to college. So when I decided to go back to graduate school, I was doing it for me, solely for me, something that I wanted to do. I was at a point in my life where I was ready. My oldest was, believe he was grown at the time and my youngest was old enough to kind of have some independence. So I was able to have the time I needed to study. Marsha Hare [00:03:10]: And then I wanted to broaden my ideals and my skills for the job that I was in, for the work environment that I was in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: So you've got a Master of Science Administration in Information Resource Management. Talk to me about the decision, not only to study that, but the decision to ultimately attend Central Michigan University. What what was it about that specific field that you decided that you wanted to focus in on that and why Central Michigan? Marsha Hare [00:03:39]: So I actually was going to the SAP program that Central Michigan offered. But, because that was the a program that we were currently working in at my job, but and it was mostly, like, for Mexico suppliers that I was using that particular application for. But it was a little more costly, so I decided to just go to the information resource management program because it kind of had some similarities and a little bit different, but I was still dealing with a lot of information, a lot of data in my day to day work. So that was one of the reasons I chose that program. The other reason I chose, Central Michigan for that particular program, I'm not good at testing. I'm sure a lot of students probably can can identify with that. Not that I'm terribly bad, but I just it's uncomfortable sometimes for me, And I did not have to take an entrance exam to get into that program, but I did have to take a couple of prerequisites. And there were some other requirements that I had to do, but I met all of those. Marsha Hare [00:04:39]: And I was so proud of myself that I didn't have to have a exam tell me this is how I felt. Not saying everybody feels that way, but I didn't have to have an exam tell me if I was smart enough to get in that program or not. But I was able to get in that program, and I actually got the best GPA that I ever had. Of course, being more mature at the time helped a lot and having the work experience helped a lot, but still I was just at that time where I was able to focus and I was ready for it. So that is why I went to CMU, and that is why I selected that particular program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:12]: Now there was a number of years between when you did your undergraduate work and you went into your graduate work. And going through undergraduate studies, you're taught in a specific way. When you go to graduate school, it's a little bit different. And you have to transition, and you have to understand and learn what you have to do to find success. So can you think back to that transition that you went through and what you found that you had to do to and what you found that you had to do to find success in graduate school. What did you have to do specifically to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of the program? Marsha Hare [00:06:00]: So I was a little unique in how I approached grad school. I did not take your traditional sit in class and do the lecture for them. I actually did my whole program online. So it took some discipline, and it took some planning. So what I did, I looked at the curriculum of every class that I have for every semester. I looked at the requirements. I looked at the assignments, when they were gonna be due. What was going to be the components of making that assignment complete? And I've got a planner, a desk planner, and I wrote out all the due dates on my planner. Marsha Hare [00:06:37]: And then I went back, and and it took probably about a couple semesters for me to kinda figure out how long it takes me to, like, read the assignment before I actually get to doing, do the homework and turn it in. So I had to kinda learn what my learning process was. So once I figured that out, then I would count, like, backwards. From the date it was due, I would go back maybe 5 days and say, okay. I need to start here and plug in 2 hours of my day to study for this specific class. And then because I was working full time, I would also it depends. Sometimes if I had a minute, I take my breaks and study. We actually had a workout room on our worksite. Marsha Hare [00:07:15]: So I would take my books and put them up on the treadmill and walk and read because sometimes reading makes me drowsy. So I would figure it out. Do what I had to do. And then on my lunch breaks, I would study. When I came home, I get the kids all straight, and then I would take whatever time I needed in the evenings to study or be online. And then the weekends. But it was fast. It was a little more condensed than your traditional in person forum, but I had to be very focused and very organized in order to have a successful online master's program experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:51]: And you were successful. You were able to go on from there and continue on. You've got your degree continued in your career. Talk to me about after getting that master's degree and even today, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis? Marsha Hare [00:08:09]: Some people get promotions. This is probably funny, but I didn't really get a promotion. I did get more work. I would just go okay. But what it did, it was a lot of research that was required in that program. So it made me do a lot more research when I was looking for or working through certain problems or trying to understand a particular segment of the industry that I was in. So that part was really good for me. It was very helpful. Marsha Hare [00:08:36]: The data that I encountered did help me with analyzing the data so that I could give feedback on what trends are happening in my particular segment or in the logistics world. So that was helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:49]: Thinking back to your graduate education, the graduate degree that you did receive and what you learned in that process. And thinking about students that are coming up now and are looking at graduate school or maybe going through graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to them that would help them to find success sooner? Marsha Hare [00:09:12]: In my graduate studies, I had to I was in a lot of groups, lot of group settings. So if you're not a person that works with others or likes to work with others, you're gonna have to change that depending on your program. But for my particular program, I like working with others, but I'm kinda used to doing my own thing. So I did have to make sure that you understand your group, you know, their personalities. You're open to the differences of opinion, the differences of styles, and appreciate that everyone brings something different or a different piece of the problem to the table. And that really helped me grow. That helped me grow in my in my position today and just over my career because my career requires me to be in different groups, and it requires me to interact with different departments. And so I have to have an appreciation for different perspectives. Marsha Hare [00:10:04]: And I learned I learned a lot from other people and how they look at and how they approach problems. So that was very, very, very helpful, and I think that's a good tip for people that's going to have to interact with the public or interact with other groups. They need to have an open mind and definitely share their own experience as well, but just be respectful of each other. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: Great tips and definitely things to think about. You're going to definitely have opportunities in grad school to work with others, and that helps you build your network as well. So the more that you are able to push yourself out there, put yourself out there, and share, as you said, your experiences, the better off you're gonna be. So, Marsha, thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for, you know, expressing and thinking back to the journey that you went through and sharing some of the tips that you learned along the way. And I truly wish you all the best. Marsha Hare [00:10:57]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:59]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

The Importance of Continuous Learning In this week's Victors in Grad School we welcome Jeff Sharkey, Vice President for Tru Treasury, as he shares his insights into the journey of success through graduate school. A key takeaway from his experience is the importance of continuous learning. His decision to pursue a graduate degree was driven by the desire to avoid making decisions based on outdated information. This highlights the value of ongoing education and the impact it can have on personal and professional development. Sharkey's story serves as a testament to the power of continuous learning in staying relevant and informed in an ever-evolving landscape. Making Informed Choices Sharkey's decision to pursue a Master of Business Administration (MBA) was influenced by meaningful advice from mentors and a deep understanding of the opportunities inherent in further education. His willingness to seek guidance from experienced professionals reflects the significance of making informed choices when it comes to graduate education. Rather than following a generic path, Sharkey actively sought advice that aligned with his career aspirations, emphasizing the value of strategic decision-making in the pursuit of higher education. Leveraging Professional Relationships The importance of leveraging professional relationships becomes evident in Sharkey's narrative. His positive interactions with mentors and colleagues not only provided valuable advice but also facilitated his transition into the graduate program. Building and nurturing strong professional relationships can open doors to opportunities and valuable insights, demonstrating the significance of networking in the context of graduate education and career advancement. Adapting to the Graduate School Environment Adapting to the graduate school environment is a crucial aspect of success, and Sharkey's experience sheds light on the need for flexibility and resilience. Operating within a distributed workforce while pursuing his MBA, Sharkey navigated the challenges of distance learning and remote work, demonstrating the importance of adaptability in managing the demands of academic and professional commitments. Application of Learning in Professional Settings Sharkey's MBA journey not only equipped him with valuable theoretical knowledge but also provided practical skills that he could apply directly in his professional role. The emphasis on team collaboration, tools for remote work, and the ability to create value amidst challenging circumstances showcases the relevance of graduate education in preparing individuals for real-world scenarios. Nurturing a Lifelong Learning Mindset As he reflects on his own experience, Sharkey shares valuable tips for aspiring graduate students. His emphasis on continuous education, open-mindedness, and proactive networking encourages individuals to adopt a lifelong learning mindset. By embracing a commitment to ongoing growth and professional development, individuals can position themselves for success and leverage the full potential of their graduate education. Sharkey's journey serves as a testament to the multifaceted benefits of pursuing a graduate degree, emphasizing the integration of academic learning, practical application, and professional networking. His insights underscore the transformative impact of strategic decision-making, adaptability, and continuous learning, offering valuable guidance for those navigating their own paths through graduate school.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, to help you on this journey that you're on in going to graduate school. Now I say going to graduate school, but you might already be in graduate school. Or you could be thinking about it, and it might be a few years off. Or you could be toward the end of that graduate school experience. No matter where you're at, this podcast was set up to help you in this journey and to help you to find success through that graduate school journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have gone to graduate school before you, that have different experiences that they can share with you and help you in this journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Jeff Sharkey is with us today, and Jeff is the vice president for Treasury Solutions and Innovation. We're gonna be talking about the steps that he took to get to where he is today. But I am really excited for him to share his experiences with you and help you to learn about what it took for him to find success. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today. Jeff Sharkey [00:01:30]: My pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: I think one of the things that I would love to do is turn the clock back. I'd love to go back in time just a little bit. I wanna go back to those undergraduate days because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint where you got your bachelor's of business administration. And at some point in that experience, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to make that next step. And it could have been during your undergraduate experience, but it also could have been while you were working in that first job as a treasury management officer at Team 1 Credit 1. So talk to me about what made you ultimately decide that you wanted to go into grad school and go into that graduate degree. Jeff Sharkey [00:02:17]: So my experience has been very unique, obviously, working throughout the entire both undergrad and graduate process. Essentially, what had happened was as I was going through, and then we'll talk again, winding back to undergrad, I met a lot of people, made a lot of connections. And it's almost a given that the people that are in undergrad have already taken the steps to further themselves as well. They could have stopped with an associates, but they're continuing to learn, in some cases lifelong learners. Well then, you also get the breed that I was in, which are also working as well. So you have a group of kind of almost overachievers where, yes, they have a career in many cases, so they're taking those nights, weekends, and online classes. Well, that really builds a bond and camaraderie there. And clearly, once you get to that 4 year mark, it's like, well, you know what? We always wanna make sure that we're improving ourselves. Jeff Sharkey [00:03:08]: I actually read an interesting thing that being a parallel to whenever you graduate, if you don't continue your education, that is the date of which you will be making the rest of the decisions of your entire life. So if I were to, as an example, graduate undergrad 2018, I would be already making decisions for the rest of my life off of 6 year old information. So that continuous improvement was was really a big thing. And then of course, you have a lot of a lot of people that are doing it. You form bonds that you can play off of as well. Another big thing that happened, honestly, was I owe most of it to the recruitment process. Craig Gomolka, specifically, kind of a rock star. He'd been at the University of Michigan for at least a decade already. Jeff Sharkey [00:03:48]: And he just did so many things proactively with the team, which, you know, obviously shows credibility institution itself to show the value. And, you know, helping me out with saying, hey, you know what? You're already here. It makes sense for you to continue on with this specific track. He would pull transcripts and say, hey. Your grades are it's to the point where they qualify for some of the MBA classes already. You know, just really making the process smooth. I didn't even ask him to do most of those things. Again, doing it proactively. Jeff Sharkey [00:04:15]: So it was just really great experience there to the point where he basically said, well, here's your first schedule. And I needed to make sure that I accepted it, and then just roll with it. So I owe a lot to him, but that's kind of the process from, you know, undergrad, which is a funny thing. I graduated with a 2011 year catalog. And that's proof of, you know, when I started this endeavor into when I finished it, because I was essentially part time doing the career and further education as well. So that's what I'd say. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:41]: Now you kind of answered this next question that I would typically ask, but maybe there's more to it, which is you did your undergrad at the University of Michigan Flint. You did your master's at the University of Michigan Flint. And you kinda talked about that in the recruitment process that Craig had talked to you, that worked with you to show you those parallels. And typically, I would say, well, what was it that made you specifically choose to stay at the University of Michigan Flint? Because it sounds like your grades were strong, and you could have gone potentially somewhere else if you had wanted to. Was it just the fact that you had made those connections, or was there more to the decision making that made you say that staying at U of M Flint was the best choice for you? Jeff Sharkey [00:05:26]: That's a fair question. Since I had been employed in essentially what is and had been my career path already, I started to get a lot of counsel from other mentors as well. A lot of so I'm in finance, so a lot of them in banking, very deep in banking. And ironically, one of the things that that happened was I'd asked one of those mentors that I really trust. Okay. So I'm I'm at that, you know, 4 year mark. What would you suggest to do next? Should I do the professional certification in my field? Or should I do the certification in my field? Or should I do the MBA? Now at that point, interestingly enough, hands down, he said professional certification in your field because that made the most sense. So I did. Jeff Sharkey [00:05:59]: I went through, took about a year and a half, knocked that out. And then I came back and I held that certification, waved it in front of his face, and said, hey, hey, what, you know, what's next? He's like, absolutely go for the MBA. And here's another reason why as he had talking about somebody who really reached a high level of exceptionalism and professionalism in his career and been able to take basically maximize what he was doing. And he got to the point where he wanted to pass that on. And the way that, you know, some of us, obviously, look to pass that on is actually through being an educator himself. One thing that he ran into significant barrier. One thing that he had not achieved through all of these things that he did achieve was an MBA. And that really sounded to him like that was the pathway for him to become an, you know, the educators, you know, again, because this is later on in his life. Jeff Sharkey [00:06:46]: He, you know, been very successful and now he wanted to give back. And that was a that was a block form. So he's like, MBA. Go for the MBA. So I have these people, my network that's already in the MBA program. I got Craig helping me out here. It really was a very convenient thing just to continue on where I was. I I knew where to park. Jeff Sharkey [00:07:04]: I knew the business school. I knew the I knew what classrooms. Some of the professors were even the same. It was really an efficiency play for me as well. You can look at my profiler. I worked at the building that was literally attached. So, you know, I worked at the bank right next door. So it just made so much sense in order to continue there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:31]: So that's success in that graduate school journey. I always know that there is a transition, though, because the way that typically you're being taught as a undergraduate student is not the same as the way that you're being taught as a graduate student. So what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey? Jeff Sharkey [00:07:55]: What I would say is it was basically continuing on in the habits that I had developed. I will say that I had the benefit since I've been working at it for so long. I knew what I was in for. I knew what to expect. For the most part, I knew the amount of time and energy I'd have to put into things. And then the distance learning, I, you know, call it that or I call it COVID, we didn't really have many other options when we got the ability to meet in person, you know, face to face removed from us. So then that took another amount of discipline. Well, at the same point that that was happening in my education, that was also happening in my career. Jeff Sharkey [00:08:30]: So it really just blended where flexibility of the class offerings, you know, whether it be the the asynchronous, you know, online, after hours, things of that nature. It really made it so that all I had to do is continue what I was doing, in the behaviors that I had already created. So it was great to have that consistency as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: Now I know you got your MBA at about the same time that you also transitioned into a role at True Treasury, and there was a little bit of synchronicity in that as well. And I guess one of the things that I would question with you is as you look back now and you completed your MBA, and you look back at what you learned throughout that MBA degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis? Jeff Sharkey [00:09:21]: It's a lot in the team aspects. I will say that most saying that through your teeth because during the process, you know, that having the team members assigned to you, you know, that can be one of the most difficult parts, is learning how to deal with other, call it coworkers, call it other team members. And I will say that I had great teams. I heard stories about other ones that were not. Our professors were even very accommodating in making ways to address team issues. So, you know, if if and when they arose. Again, I was very fortunate. But I would say that that's probably the the clearest preparation and aid, I should say, that took place. Jeff Sharkey [00:09:59]: Because what had happened was the company that I worked for was formed in 2020 right as the world started to close down. And so we were tasked to essentially create all of this value in and do it, you know, basically over the internet, which is something that has not been the traditional path for finance. And so also having that experience from the MBA of having to do absolutely everything, whether it be collaborations, using collaboration tools. You know, our our workforce is what we we call ourselves, like, basically, the 100% distributed workforce. You know, as far as no corporate leased office space somewhere. Everything is, you know, done remotely. The MBA prepared me for that as well. You know, it not even you know, almost not by design, but it was a very valuable thing for me to have that experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:49]: Now, again, you've been out now for a few years. And you have the will say time on your side to be able to look back and to be able to consider that graduate education that you've gone through and what it took for you to be able to get to that end state that you had that diploma in hand. As you look back at this and you think about other students that are coming behind you, whether it be for an MBA or for a degree in a completely different area, what are some tips that you might offer to other students that are considering graduate education that would help them to find success sooner? Jeff Sharkey [00:11:29]: Yeah. I would say continuous education. Always be hungry. Always want more than what is available. So, the professors are going to give you some a specific set of content, but that doesn't have to be the end of it. We had a lot of different, circumstances where we would work on things together with, you know, classmates that weren't necessarily related to projects, but we had formed those groups. One of them, we were very close to launching a business venture that they had essentially assigned us to do. I mean, how how easy was that as far as, you know, well, next step is essentially to go get it funded. Jeff Sharkey [00:12:05]: So those are the type of things where I'd say just really be open and be ready to take those type of opportunities. I'm working with another person who essentially ran that same type of situation, and now they're in that business. So just really be flexible, soak it all in, but don't let that be a restriction either. Don't let the syllabus be the restriction. Ended a couple of the networking events that they have. The U of M Flint's very good about having additional networking events. And I remember seeing there's kind of a line waiting to talk to this one specific professor. And so I was just kind of listening in on it. Jeff Sharkey [00:12:38]: And what he was telling is he's he's like, you need to go to this place. You need to contact this person, and here is their phone number, and they are in charge of helping get grants for that type of information. You know, it was just it was really interesting to have the different resources be presented to you. So that's the other thing I would say is is work the network. Your network will work if you work the network. I know, you know, lead surgeons in Wisconsin, the head nurses in Grand Rapids. It just really interesting, the network that I got connected with. So fire up your LinkedIn profile, make sure that you don't lose contact with these people. Jeff Sharkey [00:13:09]: There's a person who runs the metal, essentially reclamation company down in South Carolina. Just really great and interesting things to know about and to have, and we keep in contact. So that's another very valuable thing. So I would say, be open, take it all in, work that network. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:24]: I love that you said that because especially if you do have grow from those other people, and then their network becomes your network. So as you network, as you build that professional network within and among the classmates that you have, they can open doors for you that you never would have had being local to a specific area. So listen to what Jeff just said because one of the things that he was talking about was for him, having an online option was the right fit. Not the right fit for everyone, but also look at the student base. And if you're going to be in an in person cohort, is everyone from the same area? Or are they coming from many different areas too? Because you do want a network. You want to build a network. You wanna look at the alumni network. You wanna do what you can to expand your own network so that you then have even more opportunities for yourself as you move forward in your career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: So, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being willing to talk about this and share this journey that you've been on, and I wish you all the best. Jeff Sharkey [00:14:51]: My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be a daunting yet rewarding endeavor. In the podcast episode "Victors in Grad School," Robert Burack, co-founder of Brocade Studio, shares insights from his experience transitioning from undergraduate to graduate education, offering valuable tips and reflections for success in the world of higher education. The Non-Linear Path of Graduate Education: Burack’s journey serves as a poignant example of how the path to graduate education isn’t always linear. Contrary to the traditional belief that one’s undergraduate major must dictate the future degree, Burack demonstrates that the diverse landscape of graduate programs allows individuals to explore multidisciplinary paths. His background in political science led him to master's degrees in public management and strategic design, showcasing the flexibility and adaptability inherent in modern graduate education. Imposter Syndrome and the Decision to Pursue Graduate Education: Burack's decision to pursue graduate education was influenced by imposter syndrome and the desire for additional credentials to boost confidence in his consulting engagements. This reflects the common sentiment among prospective graduate students who seek validation and expertise to further their careers. His experience serves as a reminder that the pursuit of advanced education should be driven by personal and professional growth rather than conforming to traditional timelines or expectations. Discipline and Relationship Building in Graduate School: Burack emphasizes the significance of discipline in managing time effectively during his graduate programs. This shift from the abundance of time in undergraduate studies to a more structured and disciplined approach mirrors the realities many students face in the transition to graduate education. Additionally, he underscores the importance of intentional relationship building, highlighting the value of connections within the academic community that extend beyond the classroom. Transferable Skills and Soft Skill Development: Reflecting on his graduate education, Burack underscores the development of transferable skills such as deep listening, writing, and relationship building. These skills have proven instrumental in his consulting work, emphasizing the practical relevance of graduate education. This insight serves as a reminder that graduate education goes beyond academic knowledge, fostering the development of essential soft skills that are indispensable in professional endeavors. Tips for Prospective Graduate Students: Burack's advice for prospective graduate students revolves around cultivating opportunities outside the classroom, prioritizing reflection and introspection, and embracing the mindset of lifelong learning. His emphasis on leveraging the resources and mentorship available during graduate education aligns with the personalized and holistic approach necessary for a successful graduate journey. Robert Burack's journey through graduate school provides invaluable insights for individuals navigating the complex landscape of higher education. His experiences underscore the adaptability, transferable skills, and personal growth that come with pursuing diverse paths in graduate education. As aspiring and current graduate students embark on their own journeys, Burack’s reflections serve as a guide, inspiring a holistic approach to success that transcends traditional academic boundaries.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to talk to you every week because I know that the journey that you're on is different than the journey that the person beside you is on. But it is a journey and you are either looking at grad school, considering grad school, you might be in grad school, or you might be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and saying, I'm almost done. And that's okay too. But every person is going on some journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: And as you go through that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to give you hints, tips, resources, things that you can do to be able to learn, to grow and to take as a part of your toolbox. As you go through that graduate school journey for yourself, No matter where you go, you have to find those, those resources and tips, those things that you can do to be able to be successful. And it does take some different tools from the tools that you had in undergrad to be able to do that. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you that are, that have gone to graduate school, gone through graduate school, have learned things along the way and are wanting to give back. They're wanting to share those things with you. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Robert Barak is with us today. And Robert is the co founder of Brocade Studio out of Toronto, Ontario. And we'll be talking about the journey that he's been on over the years to go through from his undergraduate to graduate school and beyond. So I'm really excited to have him here today. Robert, thanks so much for joining us today. Robert Burack [00:01:56]: Thanks. It's great to be with you and glad to be expanding the Flint alumni community here in Canada. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, love to be able to chat with our friends right across the lake. Sure. And also our PAS alums to kind of learn a little bit from them. I know that you did do your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And after completing that degree, you had some opportunities and decided along the way to continue your education. Now that that original understanding of going right to grad school or going to grad school after you probably learned something along the way of when you wanted to go to grad school. Talk to me about what made you finally decide that you wanted to take that next step and go to graduate school. Robert Burack [00:02:40]: Yeah. You're right. I didn't do it right away. There was a little bit of a a simmering and learning period out in the quote unquote real world. I cofounded Brocade, which is a boutique consulting firm in my late twenties, which in some way is at least a mildly ridiculous thing to do because there's so much you don't know and you don't know that you don't know when you're in that stage of life. But one of the co founders was in a later stage of her career And overall, as a team, we were offering more skills than wisdom. So we felt fine about starting up the consultancy. So my decision to go to graduate school when I did was really driven to a large degree by a feeling I think a lot of folks have at some stage in their life and for many people in their twenties, which is some form of imposter syndrome. Right? I felt like some additional credentials would give me really the confidence to sell and lead consulting engagements. And having the credential behind me was a little bit of wind in my sails as I was talking to folks who were running organizations and doing amazing work. Robert Burack [00:03:44]: It's only later that I really understood that people care a little bit less about your resume than whether you really deeply understand their problems. And certainly graduate school is a place where you get to expand your ability to think. But I didn't want to lose momentum with the business and I really like working. So the graduate programs I chose, there were 2, 1 at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh and one at Parsons School of Design at The New School in New York were both part time programs geared towards working professionals. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]: So I'm kind of interested in the decisions that you made because you got a bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan, Flint in political science, did very well there. And as you said, you went off, you founded your consultancy firm, got into work, got some experience under your belt, and then you decided to go to Carnegie Mellon to get a master of public management, an MPM degree. And then you also decided to get a master of strategic design and management from the Parsons School of Design. So talk to me about the decision making of choosing the degrees that were right for you and what made you choose those programs, but also those schools for those degrees? Robert Burack [00:04:59]: Yeah. I've listened to a few episodes of the the podcast, and then there's some people describe a great, great thoughtfulness and in their decision making. And I'm here to represent the other side, which is sort of trying your best and make making a sort of a quick informed decision when there's a lot of possibilities on the table. So I talked a moment ago about imposter syndrome and wanting a credential to have some wind in my sails. Carnegie Mellon was a program that was proximate to where I was geared toward working professionals. So the hours worked in terms of me continuing to consult and balance work in graduate school. And I had done a fellowship called the Coro Fellowship, which is sort of multi sector experience geared towards folks in their twenties and thirties. A number of US senators have done it and entrepreneurs. Robert Burack [00:05:58]: And Carnegie Mellon had a special relationship with the Corot Fellowship where they offered a pretty significant scholarship. So I would love to say I really scanned the market, looked at many schools, many programs, but that wasn't the case. It was something that sort of ticked a couple of boxes and met my needs and allowed me to focus as much as possible on starting and growing the business, which I really wanted to to do. And our firm does a number of things. We're kind of unique in terms of the blend of services we offer, but we have a design perspective, which in some ways means that we just make things that are not only functional and defective, but are beautiful. And in some ways, we try to bring in some ways of working and thinking from the world of design and see how they might be useful in other sectors and realms. So the work at Parsons was me trying to, again, get a bit more credentialed, develop some roots in that way of working and thinking. And it was a program I wasn't quite sure I was going to do, and again, was really fortunate to get a pretty significant scholarship. Robert Burack [00:07:05]: And again, it was a program that was geared towards working professionals. And there's also something about keeping sharp your ability to learn and the skills of constant learning that were attractive in a more sort of formal program. So I think many people do a lot of research, really scan the market. I didn't do that. And so I'm here to say things can be okay as long as you really follow what's interesting and compelling. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:32]: Now, like you said, you decided to take a few years between your undergrad and your graduate work. You took some time to kind of figure things out for yourself and then made that choice to jump back in to that first master's degree. And you found success in that. You were able to transition in and through, and you finished off that degree. So talk to me about what you had to do because going through your undergrad is different than a graduate degree, and you have to, you learn in different ways. You're taught in different ways. So what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey? And how did that differ between the 2 degrees? Robert Burack [00:08:14]: I had to be really disciplined about my time in both of those graduate school programs, which was different than in undergrad. You know, I had to in undergrad, I had to get papers in on time. I had to do some of the reading at least. But the way it's structured for a lot of folks is to give you some experience of abundance of time because you want to be pouring that into your own self discovery and self development. And you a lot of folks come into a bachelor's degree undergrad experience, not exactly knowing what degree they want. It's a time of discovery. And so the luxury of time is really important. But in graduate school, I, at least in my particular setup, had to be really disciplined about time. Robert Burack [00:09:03]: And I really quickly came to understand that one of the primary ways I was going to get value from both programs was through relationships with folks in the cohort, with faculty, with other folks who were in the kind of university orbit. And so I had to be really intentional about building, seeking out those relationships, maintaining, cultivating them. And actually, it was just last week and Buenos Aires at the wedding of a friend from graduate school who runs a design studio, and we have been talking about collaborating. So one of the ways in which those relationships bear fruit, and certainly in undergrad, you're building relationships and making friendships hopefully, but I had to approach it with a different level of intention. 1, given, again, the just constraint on time. And 2, given that I had a clearer sense of the kind of value I wanted from the the programs. And so I really sought out folks who, who kind of aligned aligned with that value and who I thought I would have something to offer them and advice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:08]: So talk to me a little bit about the straight and narrow path that you took to Carnegie Mellon in the sense that your bachelor's of political science in some ways connects with public management. You can see that connection. But then in the new school, the degree is a little bit of a right turn, we'll say. And a lot of times when people start thinking about graduate school, they think of that linear path. They think of, I've got a bachelor's in business administration. I guess I need to get a MBA. And there's that before and after. But that one of the things that your journey shows is that the path doesn't have to be specifically linear in the sense of one degree to another, but that there may be other paths available to them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:50]: Can you talk to that? Robert Burack [00:10:51]: I know there are professions where you tend to follow a more linear path. You can. I had the great fortune of having a liberal arts degree, which ideally teaches you to think. It develops a lot of really critical soft skills that, even in more technical fields, are in great demand. Our team has been launching an analytics and data vertical, for example, and we're really working hard to find people who have both technical expertise, but also are deep listeners and can reflect back what they're hearing. And that is, they're not in great abundance. So, you know, we need, in that case, folks who marry the technical and the soft skills. I picked political science in part because I was someone who had worked on campaigns. Robert Burack [00:11:40]: I volunteered on campaigns in high school. I cried when Al Gore lost in 2000. It was just sort of a passion and an interest for me. And I guess I came in thinking that it was very linear, that I'll do something related to political science, and didn't quite understand until a little bit later on in the degree and certainly after the bachelor's that particularly in the liberal arts there, the number of doors open is quite significant. And when we hire now in our strategy and our planning team, we have folks who have all sorts of liberal arts degrees, anthropology, political science, marketing. As a recruiter, someone who does the hiring for our firm, I often don't pay particular attention to what the bachelor degree is. It's important for me to see that credential, but I wanna see their thinking and writing, etcetera. So, I learned that it wasn't necessarily linear. Robert Burack [00:12:45]: But you're right that the degree at Carnegie Mellon, the master's of public management, does have a pretty direct connection to the political science degree. And, you know, I chose that because I was doing a lot of work at the time with cities and counties and municipalities. I did a stint at a think tank at Harvard that works with cities around the country, specifically thinking about how they can use data to improve public services. And you're right that the degree at Parsons at The New School was a bit of a turn, but I thought about that degree as adding a adding a skill set in a layer that could be really widely, applied. So I don't know. None of it feels linear to me looking back. And, again, I was just always doing the most interesting thing I could find to do or think to do, and that led always led to to more doors that were interesting to Walker. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: Now, you've completed these master's degrees. You're continuing with your work with your consultancy firm. How do you feel that your graduate degrees prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis? Robert Burack [00:13:54]: A couple of connections. You know, consulting is interesting work. There's the joke that if you're driving somewhere and a consultant is in the passenger seat and you say, should I turn left or right? They say it depends. And I think there's a sort of an idea that where folks would bring up more questions and answers. But a large part of the work is, at least for us, is deep listening. That was something I had the opportunity to practice and to better hone in both of those programs. And writing is really critical. That's something across all degrees that I certainly had to practice quite a bit, a better writer because of all of those papers I had to do across all of those years of undergraduate and graduate programs. Robert Burack [00:14:42]: And for me, writing is thinking. It's organizing my thoughts. It's really critical because we listen a lot, we take in a lot of information, and a lot of our work is synthesizing and organizing and reflecting back what we're hearing and learning as a way to give or surface new insight. So thinking, writing, really critical, and then just building and strengthening the skills of relationship building. People want to work with people that they like and often people that they know. And I get to work with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds and got practice in building relationships with people who were both like and unlike me in all of those programs. So I think that mostly what comes up day to day is some of the softer skills that I was able to develop. I knew at the time taking a math course that I was probably not going to use most of that material. Robert Burack [00:15:43]: But, of course, those other skills are just visible every, single day here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:49]: Now as you think back to the education that you went through in both of those degrees, and you think of people that are coming up now and are thinking about going to graduate school, or maybe going through graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals that are considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner? Robert Burack [00:16:09]: Cultivate opportunities outside of the classroom, again, in terms of relationships and what the institution has to offer. Use the time as a period for reflection and introspection. Really make that a priority, even if you're balancing or juggling family life and or, full time or part time work. You know, who am I? What do I want to do? What do I wanna do in this world, in this life of mine? There's so much inertia in life, and a graduate program can be an opportunity to slow down a little bit and get that critical reflection. And learning theory reflection is actually one of the critical things to really break through the ceiling of what we can learn in other ways. So take advantage of all of those things, you know, and later in life, you might not be surrounded by people also who are actively interested in mentoring, so take advantage of that. Folks who want to invest in you, want to build relationship, want to offer advice, and try to build or reinforce the habits of learning so that you're better positioned after the program to be a lifelong learner, somebody who can adapt and upskill. So, for example, I am trying to do that now and get into the mindset of lifelong learning, and I'm seeking out learning opportunities focused on generative AI prompt writing, which is really both in vogue right now, but it seems like it's going to be one of a set of next generation skills. Robert Burack [00:17:43]: And it's a little uncomfortable for me. I mean, learning anything new can be some degree of uncomfortable, but I'm going back to the kind of habits of curiosity and knowing that if you push through, you can really get to a place where that skill brings you a lot of joy and adds benefit to your professional life. So those are some things I would suggest. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:05]: Well, Robert, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, sharing your journey with everyone. It's been a great road so far. Be interested to hear how things go in the future, and I wish you all the best. Robert Burack [00:18:16]: Thanks. I just turned 33 the other day, and so I both feel old and recognize that I'm also very young. So there's a lot more to go, and I'm really interested to see where it unwinds, and it will continue to not be linear at all. So thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Dr. Christopher Lewis, the host of Victor's in Grad School, recently had a compelling conversation with Arianna Elkins, a student in the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint. The discussion delved into her journey from undergraduate to graduate studies, the decision to pursue a joint degree program, the importance of balance and time management as a graduate student, and her aspirations for the future. Arianna shared insights and tips that can benefit students considering graduate school and those already on the path to academic and professional success. Taking Advantage of Joint Degree Programs Arianna's decision to pursue a joint degree program during her undergraduate studies highlights the benefits of seizing educational opportunities. Through the initiative offered by the University of Michigan Flint, Arianna was able to streamline her educational path and make progress towards her master's degree while completing her bachelor's. The availability of such programs, which allow certain undergraduate courses to count toward a master's degree, can be invaluable for students aiming to accelerate their academic journey while reducing the overall time and financial commitment required for advanced studies. Finding Passion and Purpose in Academic Pursuits Arianna's journey from undergraduate research assistant to pursuing a master's thesis in biology exemplifies the transformative power of educational experiences. Her involvement in an aquatic science project not only fueled her passion but also set her on a trajectory towards her desired career in natural resource management. This demonstrates the significance of gaining practical experience and finding alignment between academic pursuits and personal aspirations. Students aspiring for success in graduate school can benefit from actively seeking out research opportunities and aligning academic endeavors with future career goals. Balancing Responsibilities in Graduate School A key aspect of Arianna's discussion was the importance of balance and time management as a graduate student. Balancing coursework, research obligations, and professional responsibilities requires deliberate planning and self-discipline. Arianna's approach involved setting priorities, establishing boundaries, and creating a schedule that allowed her to seamlessly integrate her roles as a student, researcher, and professional. Her experience underscores the significance of striking a balance to prevent burnout and ensure holistic well-being while pursuing advanced education. Navigating the Path Forward As Arianna approaches the culmination of her master's program, her aspirations encompass a blend of professional engagement and educational progression. Her plans to venture into natural resource management and then potentially return for a PhD, coupled with a desire to mentor future students, reflect a forward-thinking approach to career development. Her trajectory serves as an inspiration for students to envision the broader implications of their graduate education and consider how it aligns with their future career goals and aspirations. Advice for Prospective Graduate Students Arianna's insights culminated in practical advice for individuals considering graduate school. Her emphasis on researching job requirements, identifying potential skill gaps, and leveraging networking opportunities illuminates an essential aspect of preparing for postgraduate endeavors. This advice illuminates the significance of informed decision-making and proactive engagement in shaping one's academic and professional trajectory. In conclusion, Arianna Elkins' journey through the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint showcases the transformative impact of educational opportunities, personal passion, and strategic planning. Her insights and experiences offer valuable guidance for aspiring and current graduate students seeking to navigate the complexities of advanced education with purpose, balance, and a clear vision for the future. As her journey continues, Arianna's story serves as both an inspiration and a practical guide for those navigating the challenges and opportunities of graduate school.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you are looking at graduate school No matter where you are in this journey, and it is a journey. It is a journey that you're on, whether you are still in that undergraduate degree looking at future whether you're in a graduate program and you're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and and working through in that way as well, there are always things that you can do To find success in the journey that you're on. And that's what this podcast is all about. I love being able to sit down with you and work with you on this because there are tips and tricks and things that you can learn from others. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people that have gone before you or that are going through it right now and that can give you some of their own insights to help you In the journey that you have chosen to go on as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: This week, we've got another great guest. Ariana Elkins is with us. And Ariana is a student in the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate work also at the University of Michigan Flint, and we're gonna talk about that. She took advantage of a couple of different opportunities As she was going through her undergrad that allowed her to be able to work toward that master's degree. So I'm really excited to have her here and have her Share her journey with you. Ariana, thanks so much for being here today. Arianna Elkins [00:01:51]: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I really appreciate you Sharing your own experience because typically what I do, I love going back and having you really talk about this journey that you're on. And I guess for you, you just finished your bachelor's degree. But while you were going through your bachelor's degree, you made a decision. You made a decision to Take advantage of a joint degree program. And for those of you that don't know or are on campuses that don't have these, a joint degree program is a program that allows for you while you're going through that undergraduate program to take courses as an undergraduate That will also count toward a master's degree. So Ariana took advantage of that while she was going through that bachelor's in biology to also work on a master's. Now so let's go back in time a little bit, Ariana, and tell me about what made you just choose that you wanted to take advantage of this Joint degree program and what, really, what made you choose that you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's to get the master's in general? Arianna Elkins [00:02:55]: Yeah. So There was talk about this program being brought to campus. They were in the process of developing it, so I knew it was coming. And I felt really lucky that my My last semester of undergrad, it became available for us to take advantage of that. So, really, without thinking, I did it. Allows you to save money, save some time, and it is a little bit of an added challenge. You're taking an undergraduate class, but there's a little bit extra work in there to Have it count for a graduate class as well. So I was really happy that I had the opportunity to save money. Arianna Elkins [00:03:31]: That was probably The biggest reason for doing it. So what got me into wanting to continue my education onto my master's degree, I had the opportunity to work as an undergrad research assistant on another master's student project. And it was involved in biology. That master's student just happened to be my good friend. So having the opportunity to work on campus, get paid on campus, and learn something new, I really didn't think twice about that opportunity either. So I found myself working on an aquatic science project. We were, For the most part, catching fish on the river. And when I first started, I couldn't even touch a fish. Arianna Elkins [00:04:15]: I was absolutely terrified of them. It wasn't anything that I saw myself doing or enjoying, but very quickly, Not only did I enjoy it, I had I loved it. I had a great passion for it. So I actually had the opportunity. I was very, very lucky to continue Onto that project, kind of take the torch, and now I'm continuing that project as my master's thesis. So I knew that I could probably go somewhere else and get a master's degree, maybe move, have a different experience. But I knew the adviser that I would be working with, and I knew the project. So I really felt that I was just in a really good place at The perfect time, and so I took that opportunity and continued on to master's. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]: So you just talked about the fact that you could've decided to just Finish off your bachelor's degree. You're toward the end of your bachelor's degree, so you could have done that and and gotten that different experience. What was it about the program at the University of Michigan Flint that really made you say, no. I wanna do this joint degree. I wanna stay, And I wanna get my master's at the same institution where I got my bachelor's. Arianna Elkins [00:05:25]: Master's is a lot different as most people probably know. It's not as credit and coursework based. So I knew that continuing on to my master's, In addition to working with my adviser more, I would be getting the added aspect of Scientific methodology and completing a research project as my thesis, which can not only be applied to fishery science, which is My goal where I'm where I'm wanting to go with my career, but can be really applied to any STEM field, anthropology as well. Really, any research project is once you understand the gist of it, you kind of understand how to do research and how to discover things Pertaining to anything in science. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:16]: So when you were doing this joint degree program, you Had the opportunity, like you said, to do courses and then do a bit more to be able to have them count for graduate work. And every person has to go through a process of doing a transition. A transition, like you said, the way that courses are taught are different. The expectations are different, and you have to get into a different type of mindset. So as you transitioned into that graduate program into becoming a graduate student. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you were going through the entire program? Arianna Elkins [00:07:01]: I would say The university helped a lot with that. In your undergrad, you do a lot of that scientific reading and writing, and I felt like they really helped with my segue into my master's degree. But on a personal level, you definitely have to have time management skills. I know a lot of people live at home, but I don't live at home anymore. So on top of getting a degree and making sure that that's my Prime focus is advancing my education. I also have to have time to work and hobbies and things like that. So time management is a huge thing for me. That comes with self discipline, making sure that you're Getting a good amount of sleep so that you can wake up the next day, get everything you need to done, get everything that you need to get done, and then you kinda have time for your Hobbies and taking care of yourself in the house and stuff like that. Arianna Elkins [00:07:52]: So time management partnered with a lot of self discipline and organization skills is what kind of helped my segue into my master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:01]: So talk to me a little bit about balance because as you said, You've had to work on top of being a graduate student, and you hold a managerial position. You know, you're you're working as a manager. You're doing that outside of work. You're doing research and having to maintain that research. You've got courses, And you've got to be able to keep on top of all of that, to be able to have that success in the courses that you want. So how have you been able to balance all of that and find success in the way that you've been able to balance that. Arianna Elkins [00:08:35]: Truthfully, I experienced a lot of burnout in my undergrad. I think with just the heavy Course load. There was a lot of things each day that I had to do versus now my workload is Things that I want to do. It's I have this big time line to conduct a thesis, but it's essentially at my own pace. Those are deadlines that I have set for myself with a little bit help from my advisor. So the transition into my master's degree with that Flexibility in my schedule really helped me balance my life, my hobbies, my health, eating healthy, things like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:16]: So it sounds like you have to really find the priorities and set those priorities for yourself And then be able to deconstruct that. So if you have to work, you have to work, but then having to figure out, okay, if I'm working if I have to work, I have to Schedule so much time to do this, but I also have to have time to do the other things that you have to do to be able to get through the courses, get through the research, get through all of that. Is that what you're saying? Arianna Elkins [00:09:41]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think scheduling is a really big part of it. You have a boss that schedules you specific Times to work, but it's also at least for me, it works the best if I then have a set time that I'm working on my thesis or that I'm working on my classwork. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: So you have about a year left in your program right now. And as you are starting to look at the future, what does the future look like for view. And where do you wanna go, and what do you wanna do next? Arianna Elkins [00:10:10]: After I finish my thesis, which I think is going to be a really big push In the most recent future, I am planning on just getting out there and seeing what kind of jobs I can attain In natural resource management, I mentioned earlier, I'm hoping to be fisheries based, but really anything A natural resource management in the area would make me happy. And then I'm planning. I really like the idea of teaching and mentoring students. So I'm planning on getting some real world applications and education, and then maybe coming back and completing a PhD and And later being a professor so that I can share my education experience as well as the real world experience that I've gained. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: So So as you think about the experience that you've gone through thus far, and I know you're still in graduate school now. And as you're talking to Other undergraduate students at your own institution or as you think about the journey that you've gone on, What are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner? Arianna Elkins [00:11:22]: Well, the first thing I would say is hang in there. Undergraduate is very coursework heavy and in my experience can be very draining. But the next thing thing I would recommend is start looking at jobs. Start looking at the requirements that they're asking. If Just having your bachelor's degree is going to give you a job that has the pay that you're looking for, if you even have the requirements that they're asking for, really just determining if your bachelor's is gonna be enough for something that you wanna do. That was A reason that I continued with my master's, I felt like it just opened up more opportunities for me having, a higher education. So I would just say start looking at the requirements that they're asking for on jobs and might give you an idea of if you need to do more networking on campus or if you need to do more volunteer opportunities or just ways that you might be able to fill the gaps in on your resume. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:20]: Great tips. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Ariana. And I am really looking forward to Hearing what your next steps are and seeing where you go from here. But I truly appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing all of this, and I wish you all the best. Arianna Elkins [00:12:37]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great, and I hope that someone finds some good tips and some help from this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:44]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking or in person or online learning options. The University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Understanding Faculty Impact In this enlightening conversation with Dr. Jennifer Blackwood, Director of the Physical Therapy program at the University of Michigan-Flint, students were urged to focus on the caliber of faculty when choosing a graduate program. Dr. Blackwood stressed that meaningful growth is nurtured through connections with educators who are committed to continuous learning and who wield tangible impact in their fields. The significance of building relationships and interacting with faculty beyond academic settings cannot be understated. The Setbacks as Stepping Stones Setbacks need not be stumbling blocks but rather stepping stones towards personal and professional enhancement. Dr. Blackwood’s own journey, replete with initial rejections and challenges, is a testament to the power of perseverance. The Making of a Mentor Dr. Blackwood’s story is a powerful nod to the value of mentorship. She underlined how effective educators not only disseminate knowledge but also provide guidance and support, preparing students for success beyond the classroom. Flexibility and Holistic Support in Education With an educational landscape that's increasingly dynamic, the University of Michigan Flint shines with its blend of online and in-person offerings, epitomizing the need for flexible and supportive program structures. Beyond the Campus Aesthetics While the beauty of a campus or resources may be alluring, Dr. Blackwood advised that looking to the quality and ethos of educators will be more conducive to one's learning. Educational accomplishments are, after all, more influenced by human interaction than by architectural marvels. In essence, this episode emphasized the transformative power of education, the integral role of mentorship, and the importance of embracing life’s challenges. These ingredients not only enrich the graduate school experience but also shape future leaders capable of making a meaningful impact.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I am here to Support you along this journey that you're on. And I say journey I say this I say journey because it is a journey. It is a journey that you are on as you're preparing for graduate school. You You may be preparing for graduate school. You may be just thinking about graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:37]: You might be in graduate school, or maybe you're looking at the that light at the end of the tunnel Come in at you as you're getting ready to be done with graduate school as well. But no matter where you're at, there are things that you can do to find in that journey that you're on, and that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping you to find success in the journey And helping you to learn from other individuals that have gone before you, that are that are here to help you to be able to Share what they learned along the way and are here to help you to find some things that may help you as well. That's why every week I love bringing you different guests, different people that have gone before you that have gone on this journey. They come from all kinds of different backgrounds, all kinds of different majors, And they have all they all have the one thing in common, which is they went to graduate school before you, and they have figured out how to find success. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with you every week and to be able to bring these different guests to you. And this week, we got another great guest with us, Dr. Jennifer Blackwood is with us. And Dr. Blackwood is the Director of the Physical Therapy program, and a professor at the University of Michigan Flint, and She has been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: She's been here now for for quite a while working within our PT program. And along the way, she has had a number of other experiences and has Been able to bring experiences from a number of different educational backgrounds as well. So she I am really excited to be able to have her here with us today and welcome her to the show. Dr. Blackwood, thank you so much for being here today. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:02:20]: Yeah. Thanks, Chris, for having me. I'm excited to share any part of my journey and to encourage folks along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: Well, I really appreciate you being here, and what I love to do at the beginning is really just to Turn the clock back in time. I know you got your 1st bachelor's back at Bowling Green State University. And along the way, at Bowling Green, you had something went Through your head, you made a decision that you wanted to keep going. You wanted to go from there to continue your education and work toward that Physical therapy degree. What was going through your head, and why did you choose that you wanted to continue into graduate school? Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:02:54]: Yes. Thanks, Chris. My, my Lifetime career goal was always to become a physical therapist, and I should say always after a remarkable event in my life. And it happened to be That my mom got sick, and she needed to see a physical therapist. And with much gratitude to the physical therapist back then who taught me how to be the junior Physical therapist to help her in her exercise program and really to progress her forward. So when I was at Bowling Green, I went in as a pre PT student. And like many individuals in that time, we had 500 to 600 applicants for very few spots, 20 to 30 spots in an average PT program. And the 1st time that I, went through and applied to a physical therapy school, I didn't get in. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:03:38]: And so I reevaluated where I was. And as a student who grew up in a blue collar household, which required me to do a lot of my own Financial support for my education and certainly for progressing me forward. I decided to fast track my way out of school to get a job Before I reentered and reapplied for a to other physical therapy programs, and in particular, The one on our campus, the University of Michigan's physical therapy program. So so when I was at Bowling Green, I had a great undergrad experience, but I realized that The degree that I did receive from their bachelor's of science in biology was not my final destination. And I knew that In order to continue on, I had to continue to drive towards those goals no matter what the outcome was. And my first non acceptance in the PT school absolutely It didn't stop me, but actually allowed me to refocus, reprioritize, graduate early. So before the 4 year mark, which is Kind of unheard of in some ways, but also to go out and get a job, start making money, reapply to other programs including that one, and then Pick my choices as far as where I wanted to go. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]: So as you said, you applied once. You didn't get into that program. You reevaluated and decided that you were going to continue to move forward after you got some a little bit of experience, And I'm sure at that point, you had some options. You could have gone to many different programs. You could have you may have applied to many different programs. How did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right school for you? Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:05:15]: Yeah. So as you may note, And all of our listeners may note too, Bowling Green is in a state that's south of Michigan. And I grew up in a house That did not bleed maize and blue, and I will tell you that right off the bat. But when I graduated from Bowling Green, I had a choice To either go into a physical therapy program that was at either a certificate or a bachelor's level or to look into graduate school, to look at the time was Most physical therapy programs were at a master's level. And I just had a point of reflection to say, I can go and pursue the same degree and achieve a bachelor's degree or to pursue A master's degree in physical therapy. And so that really opened my eyes to different area different physical therapy programs. And in particular, the one in Michigan really stuck out. I will tell you that as as a person that grew up not in the state, I had I never I had not spent a lot of time in The state of Michigan up until the point when my husband and and their family were from the Flint region, and we had come back up here for just a visit. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:06:16]: But For me, it was really this idea of looking at opportunities to advance my education that would be consistent with where I wanted to go. And so even as a younger individual, I realized that, you know, my the practice of physical therapy was something I wanted to do. But I also realized that If I had a chance to do something else, like teaching or research or something like that, I knew that I'd have to get more than just a bachelor's degree. And so when I was really kind of Considering that next step after the 1st initial rejection in applying to physical therapy schools, I realized I had to step into a direction that would feed me and support me later later on. And so that's where I really started to look at these master's programs. And the program at Michigan, you know, it stuck out in a number of ways. Number 1, it was one of the only ones at the time that we're at a master's level. And the other piece that really stuck out is just the sort of just looking at the the program as a whole and its history And its strength and its history was really something that kinda brought me to this, brought me to coming to this program and certainly applying to it. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:07:18]: But it So, you know, was something that I never anticipated. So I I never had the mason blue, the black m as something that I always wanna pursue in my life. But for me, I know it was Definitely a moment that really supported me in the process to become a physical therapist. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:33]: Now I know that as you were working As a physical therapist, you got out of graduate school, and we'll talk about that journey, about what it was like to go through graduate school. But as we're still talking about kind of going to and In selecting schools, you ended up also getting your PhD, and you ended up while you were working also working on that. You chose to go to Western Michigan University for that program. How did you choose that program? Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:07:59]: Yeah. So I had already started my career as a faculty member on our faculty at the University of Michigan And the PhD from Western Michigan was or is a PhD in interdisciplinary health sciences. And, it allowed me to utilize my my area of research that I wanted to focus on and really emphasize the interdisciplinary. And and these terms that We commonly use today is interprofessional and interprofessional practice and interprofessional education. But when I was going through this program and really investigating it, It allowed me to examine the area of research that I wanted to work on. It was flexible. It allowed me the opportunity to Complete classes sort of in a asynchronous or a hybrid mode. So where some were completed online, and then yet we still met, Every week in person or sorry. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:08:49]: One time a month in person so that we could have that gap closed and that relationship and socialization within a PhD program as a Part of this. The other piece that really came with that is the concept of being able to manage that as an individual that was working. And although I was working as a faculty member and able to Streamline and and sort of utilize my teaching and research both within my job as well as my PhD program. It allowed me to Sort of marry the 2 and then be successful on both fronts. Mind you, all at the same time where my children were young at the time. And so it was definitely a challenge, But it allowed me to put the categories of work into specific areas and then focus on those throughout the process. The fruit of our labor was great. And so within 3 years' time, I finished my PhD. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:09:36]: Of course, that may be something that seems different, But I was so focused to continue on in that journey that I didn't really wanna delay the opportunity to be successful. So I actually finished mine in just about 36 months, which is really fast and can be very difficult. But but I'm just grateful for it because I didn't wanna continue on. At that time, I wanted to take that next step. And the next step was really To sort of, decompress for a period of time, but also to start applying what I had just garnered through that education and my research to step into that next Direction and to really start making an impact on my own as a researcher. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:18]: Now going back to that experience as you were going through that master's degree in physical therapy. I know that you were successful in in going through that program. And I guess as you think back to that experience for yourself as you go from being an undergraduate and going into graduate work, especially a graduate program that is rigorous and full Time in with a lot of expectations. As you think back to that, what did you have to do as you were transitioning in To set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entire program? Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:10:54]: Yeah. That's a great question. To start off, one of the first things that drew me solidly to this program at the University of Michigan Flint was the faculty. Because It was really the only program that I heard from at the time that spoke about supporting students in a holistic Fashion. And this is before using terms like holistic admissions and stuff was what we had used. But the faculty spoke about Selecting the students and selecting the reasons why that they would choose the specific students that got into the program. And it wasn't just Highest grade leader of this and varsity athlete and things like that, but rather, they really focus on other characteristics. And later on, as I I became a faculty member. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:11:36]: I never really found out what those characteristics were because it was a different age. However, transitioning into the program, being an out of state Student, I very much knew what the cost was. I knew that my coworkers or colleagues in PT school that were in state students, they were paying one rate, and I was paying twice. So, financial, implications of my performance really drove me to learn as much as I possibly could. But The other piece of that that was so powerful was that initial experience I had with my own parents, my mom needing physical therapy. Later on, my grandma needing physical therapy. And we had a faculty member at the time, doctor Dick Darnell, former director of the program. He used to use this thing called the grandma rule. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:12:21]: And he would tell us he would say, treat your patient like you would your grandma. You always want somebody that's gonna take care of your family member, you know, insert whoever that might be. And so when I studied, I studied for my future patient. I studied for those individuals that don't have anything else, Any other hope left in them when they receive challenging diagnoses. I studied for the ability to repeat things back with Confidence knowing that I am absolutely chosen to be in this profession, but also I am chosen to help other individuals. And being a physical therapist, you meet people at a very vulnerable time in their lives, and it can be really you know, it's it's it's a privilege that not many get the chance To have. And in particular for us, like, when we put our hands on a person to try and help them with their mobility, with getting up on a chair, you know, that's That's another thing that's very challenging for for us. And so my transition into graduate school and how I focus was Based on the fact that I always used to have this joke with my classmates, like they may be buying a brand new I don't wanna name one of the top 3 carmakers, but we'll just say one of those. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:13:29]: And my cost was, like, I was buying a foreign car because it was much more than what they had had. So I did spend a lot of time almost Really trying to garner that information so that I could replicate it. Now the outcome of that was, I suppose, with better grades and you would get More confidence and things like that. But what I also realized is that those individuals around me, my classmates that supported me, was invaluable. The faculty was invaluable. And to be able to have a conversation with them and go in their office and, you know, these individuals that were Highly regarded in the profession of physical therapy in different areas. But to develop a relationship with them and be able To ask them just random questions about anything in the profession or some of the issues that we were currently experiencing in health care. And To have that as your colleague and mentor was really powerful for me as a student. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:14:24]: And then the last piece that I remember sticking out very greatly to me was when our director at the time, doctor Paulette Czubalski, you know, she got in front of our class And she just announced and said, listen. You guys are all here because we want you to be here. The weed out process is done. It's time for you to become future physical therapists. And I think that that was just a powerful moment. And so, you know, I was the type of student that was driven to learn, but So, really, the value of me being accepted at the University of Michigan's physical therapy program was not disregarded. Like, I highly valued being here. I highly valued being a student, and I just enjoyed it immensely. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:15:05]: It was like getting the opportunity to finally be able to study what you wanted to study your whole life, and that was what I did. So Just grateful to be a part of the team. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:15]: Now one of the things you just talked about was that importance of building strong relationships with Your faculty members and many students that walk into a graduate program are walking in with very wide eyes, But also a little intimidation and especially intimidation when they meet those faculty members with all the credentials and the work experience And such, and many times students don't exactly know how do I put my best foot forward to build those strong relationships. As as a professor now in the program, what do you say to those students about some of the best ways in which They can start to build those relationships from day 1. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:16:00]: I think as a group, we've taken it upon ourselves, a group of faculty, Educators in physical therapy, we've actually tried to reverse that a little bit. In in the manner in which we do that is sort of that 1st day introduction. It's not, You know, the students, anybody can do a Google search of an individual and find out all the accolades that they have and, you know, how how many awards and things that they've gotten. But When we introduce ourselves, we introduce ourselves just very briefly. And one of the greatest things about my job as a director is to promote The faculty so many times because they receive all these awards and these these, publications and presentations, but oftentimes, they don't talk about them quite as much. I get the chance to do that. But when it comes to a student going through that process, our faculty introduce ourselves, but then, Student going through that process, our faculty introduce ourselves. But then, typically, we ask for some small bit of information, information about them That is not related to academics. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:16:50]: So it's not I call myself, you know, whatever it is. It's something that might be related to performance in academics. So it's not like, you know, I have difficulty reading long texts or something like that. That's not the point that we want from our students. But rather what we need is need information about them. That way we can start to build that relationship. And so, for example, I just recently did this, send out some note cards to students. They an item, and now I have a little nugget of information that we build off of. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:17:16]: And we continue to have that opportunity to, you know, share that piece of our lives together. The other thing that we've actually done too is we've built in small pieces of socialization and service at the same time. Our pro bono clinic is one of them, HEART, where you get the chance to work alongside faculty, but oftentimes, we'll be serving in the community, whether it's at the food bank, whether it's, at a another service activity that's held within the Flint or Genesee County region. So then when it comes down to faculty or students Getting to learn their faculty. I think what it boils down to, like, my greatest encouragement, and I would say this to any undergrad student, high schooler that's gonna go into College or even a student that's gonna go into grad school is to get the chance to know their faculty members. And so if they have office hours, come to office hours. If they have a Social event, a coffee event, something like that, then come in and come in with sort of the humanistic approach. It doesn't necessarily have to be this every time a student goes to see a faculty member to ask a question about the information, but rather to say, you know, I'm also did you get a chance to watch a game on Friday? Oh, yeah. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:18:24]: I did. And then you start sharing that. Well, that relationship builds into more. And then the other piece that I think is really powerful is when students get a chance to participate in their professional socialization. So if it is something that's related to their degree And there happens to be like a, a research presentation or something like that where they get the chance to listen and participate in those activities. If they get the chance to go to a conference, whether it's supported or not from internal resources, by all means, go to those things. Talk with the faculty and then really kind of get that mentorship that, it's not always formative. Usually, it's, something that usually, it's something that happens just implicitly, and it's not something where you have to as a student, you have to sit and receive everything the faculty member is trying to provide for them, but rather to give them the chance to build that relationship. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:19:15]: It's All about spending time and then sharing life experiences with them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:20]: I really appreciate you sharing that because I think that is important and Not always something that undergraduate students do in the best way or they don't always develop those relationships. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And so I think it's important to understand that that is a part that is something that can definitely help them. Now you also mentioned just this a few minutes ago, The the pro bono clinic that you have here, and I know that for programs like yours, many students are going to be taking advantage of many types of clinical opportunities. And as they're looking at programs and considering programs that have a heavy component to that practical learning That they're trying to find information to see what specifically separates programs from one another. As you talk to prospective students For your program, how do you help them to or and what do you what would you say that they should be doing, asking As they're looking at clinical opportunities, especially for programs that have those opportunities available, That would help them to differentiate programs from one another. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:20:24]: Yeah. I think one of the greatest things that a person can do if they're comparing different Graduate programs, in this case, physical therapy programs and their clinical education, is to just ask A question about the number and the variability between sites. Because oftentimes, I get questions from students. Do we have a special Affiliation. Do we have a clinical affiliation in a specific area? And sometimes it happens to be sports. Sports are is a an area of practice that some students are interested in. And we do have those, but we don't have 60 or a 180 depending on how many students are out in the clinic at any one given time. That's because it's just a special area of practice. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:21:05]: So I think if a student is looking at different physical therapy schools, I think you need to ask just about the number of sites available and what that selection process is like. Because although you may have a program that may have, let's say, 30 different sites in sports, it may not be every year, maybe every other year, or you may have They have special credentials to be able to even participate in that. So regardless of what is what regardless of the type of Clinical education experiences a student goes through. They have a career of practice ahead of them. And sometimes, participating in various components of their clinical education. They may find that there is an area of Practice that they thought they always wanted to go into that now they no longer wanna go into. So my communication is always about a growth mindset. Like, Don't necessarily think the only way that you were gonna be this excellent physical therapist is by doing this type of, Educational experience and this one, then this one, then this one. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:22:02]: And then you're gonna have the job that you've always wanted because I guarantee it's gonna change, number 1, and that's okay. But the other thing is is in order for us to be really good at 1 area and have passion about 1 area of practice, we have to be exposed to these other areas. So I think the idea of asking the faculty or the administrators of a Physical therapy program or any health related program about those types of experiences that are available in the selection process. If that meets your needs, I think that's sufficient. The question I would ask if I was say this is one of my children that wanted to become a physical therapist or whatnot would be, How many of those clinical instructors at those facilities have credentialing from, example, the American Physical Therapy Association as Clinical instructors, which means that these physical therapists, supervisors, or preceptors go out and they receive specialized Training to take students and to educate students in that clinical environment. I think that's very powerful. Because you could go out into 2 places. Let's just use the example example of geriatrics, which is the area that I I generally practice in or my specialization. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:23:11]: You could have 2 geriatric facilities and all things equal, The clinical instructor that has the American Physical Therapy Associated credentialing as a clinical instructor may be a better clinical instructor and preceptor and mentor than the other individual that doesn't hold those. And I just think it's it really provides us with an opportunity to say These individuals have gone out and received extra training to be clinical educators, and I think that that's very powerful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]: Now as a faculty member, as a Professor is someone that has gone through graduate school and is now utilizing what you've learned on a daily basis To educate others. You've given different pieces of advice today, but as you're thinking about individuals, whether they're going to graduate school for physical therapy, Business or whatever it might, but they're looking at going on to get that graduate degree to continue on toward the goals that they've set for themselves. What are some tips that you might wanna offer every student as they're considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner? Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:24:15]: You know, I think The quality of the faculty that guide you is gonna be key. And the relationships that they have, not only with their profession, but also maybe within the university or within the community. Because I don't think anybody goes into graduate education to remain at the same point when they've graduated. I don't think anybody Goes on to get a master's degree or a doctoral degree or even a PhD will will want to be in that same sort of space in life that they were in when they started this. So that mentorship is gonna be vital. The quality of the faculty is gonna be vital. And then the 2nd piece of that are those other experiences that come along with this. So oftentimes, we talk about the explicit and the implicit curricula of a program. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:24:59]: So our explicit curricula are these are the classes you have to take. These are the books you have to buy. This is the process that you have to go through. But sort of that Implicit information. The information about how the faculty of that various program is gonna Push you to be able to be the best version of yourself at the end is really what a person needs. I also think that As a program director, I think the equipment space and our resources that we have in our program is excellent. And I'm very proud of the information And the spaces that we have. However, I say that sometimes and I was I was prone to this as a younger person when I when I selected some schools. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:25:40]: The sort of brick and mortar that you have within, within higher education, you know, the beautiful grounds and the things of that nature, Those are all good, but you don't learn from buildings. You learn from your faculty. And I really think that Speaking human being to human being and other parents, other students that are thinking of going in and encouraging another person or encouraging themselves to take that step and to go into graduate schooler to go into higher education, the quality of those educators is going to be key. And I just think we have to keep our eyeballs on that. If you're looking at a field that's high in research or really focused in that area or should be, those faculty should also be sort of leaders in that field as well. If it's clinical practice or health care, the same thing. If you're looking at, you know, any programs whether in the health professions, Like, how many of those faculty are still practicing within that profession? How many of those people are serving in the community? And I think that really gives us an opportunity to recognize the priorities within those individuals and how we as future professionals in that area can benefit from them. And then the last Piece that I would just tell students is or applicants is don't worry about don't fret too much about the circumstances today. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:26:57]: Because Like myself, I had to get a couple no's before I finally got the right yes. I had to go and experience some things that were quite challenging in my life, Personal life and then my professional life. To be able to be at the point where I'm at now, all things considered, you know, none of those things that they were Taken away would have made me in the person that I am today. So all of that was very, very purposeful. And even though It was challenging at times, and, you know, if everything went my way, I would have gotten a degree from a different institution a long time ago. But I guarantee that if that was the case, I wouldn't be in this position today. So I can say that as a person that's been in the field for x amount of time, I know sometimes it's not always comforting, but I think it's one of those things where it will all work out. And we're here to support when students are in our program, and we wanna see the best version of our students at their outcome and certainly support them in that process. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:27:51]: But it's one of the things that looking down the tunnel when you don't see that light sometimes can be a little bit overwhelming for folks that are not in my current position. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:59]: Now one follow-up that I'd love to get your take on. You talk about that sometimes students are making decisions based on how pretty the campus is and the Facilities and not always the teaching and the people that are there. I guess 1 question that I would ask is, are there questions? Are there things that someone can ask that would help them to ferret out the quality of instruction, the quality of instructors That may not be apparent from what they see only on a page. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:28:32]: Yeah. I think this goes back to that idea of Sort of cultural humility as a faculty member, and you can hear it when individuals talk. So the idea of, like, a student might ask, what are you working on now to improve the program or to improve your your teaching instruction, your research, things of that nature? And I think that piece of being a continuous learner is something that does not stop when you become a professor or associate professor or any type of faculty member. And I think knowing that we're all still on that journey, we're all still trying to figure this out. I think that's a piece that a student could ask. And so, like, as you go to these programs And you interview the faculty, and really, you should. You should interview and say, do I do I fit in this situation? Like, that's sort of that mental question. But The questions to ask a faculty member would say, you know, what areas of research are you still working on? What what's something that you haven't solved that you wanna look at in the future if If you're looking into research focused, programs, if you're looking at just sort of the education that they provide, you know, what's one comment that a student had provided in the paths that you're really trying to change about the way that you teach or about the way that you're instructing. Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:29:43]: And I think that's just a really great opportunity for us to say whether or not these individuals are reflecting and changing and modifying and updating, and whether or not they're willing to tell us that. I think that's the other piece because Faculty do this all the time. They change their classes. They change what's going on within the class. They they modify what they're teaching, and they're always constantly in revision. But to be able to demonstrate that indicates that the student could participate in that process. The last piece that I would also say is, you know, there's great things that every institution is doing, and that's just wonderful because they're educating folks to go out and change the world. And I think as a Student that's really on the border to say, do I belong here or do I belong there? To ask the question to the faculty member or the program director to say, How am I gonna make an impact in this profession, this